 Today is January 19th. And this is the meeting of the Disability Access Advisory Committee. And could everybody present please state their name? Elise. Rose. And Marty, you can say your present. Marty Smith. OK. And Myra Ross. So we have five of the seven members present. And we have a new member, Marty Smith. So you might want to introduce yourself. OK. I'm Marty Smith. I've been an architect at the university for over 30 years. I've practiced in the Valley. One of my specialties is accessibility. Cool. Well, timely today we have something that we're trying to send to the architectural access board. So pretty cool. Does anyone have any announcements before we? We also have to recognize Patty here joining our meeting. Thank you, Pat. Thank you for I'm glad. Oh, great. I didn't know you were there. Great. Thank you. This is great. Patty Angelis is our liaison to the town council because she's on the town council during these things representing district two. Two. Cool. OK. Yay. All right. So does anyone have any announcements to make? I have a couple updates to give everyone, but I can wait until after we discuss the AAAB. OK. Just one thing I want to say months ago, a few of us applied to attend a disability conference from MCAD, I think. I'm not sure. Actually, one of those agencies, they canceled it at the last minute. They sent a subsequent email that said, we're still going to have it. That was a long time ago. I think the original meeting was scheduled for October and they have not come through yet, at least as far as I know, with another date. I think at least you had signed up for it. I don't know if you have the same. I was signed up for it. And you were signed up too. I was as well. Oh, OK. Well, so it's true that they haven't gotten back to us recently, right? Nope, they haven't. OK, good. Not good for them, but good at least I know what's going on. All right. Maybe we should move on to the letter to the architectural access board. What happened last month, if anybody wasn't here, was we had presentation from UMass architects. Hope this doesn't hit home, Marty. But anyway, we had a presentation. They wanted us to give our opinion, which is not binding. Regarding a staircase and a handrail on a staircase that they had built already in the UMass Student Union in what seems to be a very, very lovely renovation. And I guess close to the end, they figured out that putting in handrails the way they had originally maybe not thought about it very well wasn't going to work because of the way that they set up one of the sides to be a place for people to congregate and because the staircase wasn't all that wide, so they couldn't put it in the middle. And so they came to us to ask for our blessing, essentially, not to only put in one handrail on the staircase. And we had a heated discussion. Two of us voted that we did not think that was a good idea, even though the rest of the committee, four people voted that it was fine. So we voted four to two to approve the request. Again, not that we have any power. But after the vote, one of the inspectors, I don't even know who he is the inspector for. For the state. He's a state inspector for MAAB, I believe. Well, anyway, I made a pretty impassioned speech in opposition to approving this. And he said that he was also extremely concerned and that he wished that it had been caught earlier in the process. He understands as a person who is getting on an age that not having a handrail is a potential problem for some people. And he said that we should write a letter to the MAAB, because they are considering changing the rule to allow that as a matter of right instead of special permission, because that's what's in the ADA. And he encouraged us to write a letter, because he was very upset about what he, in fact, had allowed. And so I wrote a letter, and I sent it to Maureen. And that's what you have before you to see if you think that this committee should send it. So that's where we are. If you want to add anything, please do. Anybody? I have to recuse myself from this, but I'd like to talk about the process a little bit. OK. You actually do have a lot of power. I've been involved in a lot of these. I've gone to the MAAB many, many times. And they take your comments extraordinarily seriously. And the person that you were talking to is David Holmes, who is the state building inspector at the university. And he is very, he's a very good inspector. I'm sure he actually felt very badly about missing this. He did. This is a common feature that we're seeing in many buildings today. And I agree it's terribly dangerous. We've got one at the Recreation Center. But I just want you to know that typically the board won't support a variance if the local board doesn't support it. So you really do have a lot of power. Maureen, did we act on our, did you send that? I mean, it was Christmas and everything. Did you send that in? Well, you know, I think part of the conversation that needs to be had with MAAB is that the day before that this application that MAAB held their hearing and made their decision about this variance request. So it wasn't till the day after the MAAB made their decision about this. So in essence, this committee did not have it. And did not have. Wait, in essence, you disappeared. Oh, sorry. What did you say? Unfortunately, the sequence of this variance request, and I have seen this with other variance requests, is that the MAAB heard this variance request in Boston virtually, I'm sure, the day before this committee had their meeting. So we had our meeting on December 15th. On December 14th, the MAAB held their public hearing. And so that adds another layer of frustration, I think, that this committee could share, is that the MAAB should not be making their decision until they have had an opportunity from a local committee. We did hold this meeting as soon as possible within two weeks of receiving that application. And so it would be one thing if we didn't hold a meeting for a couple months. And we missed our opportunity, or you guys missed your opportunity. But that wasn't the case here. We held the meeting within a few weeks of receiving that application. And I must admit, I have seen this on occasion with various, with other variance requests. And it's not out of not holding the meeting or scheduling the meeting in time. It's that the MA, perhaps the MAAB should be revising their time schedule. So do we have to write another letter? Perhaps. Or you could add that into your memo. Well, it's sort of a different topic. Sure. Yeah, it could be, yep. But if they had already decided to allow it, I mean, this committee voted to approve it, not unanimously. But if we had known maybe that we really had any power over it, I don't know, maybe people would have voted differently. Some people said they already did it. So what difference does it make? And they already had done it. And unfortunately, for this specific. The other thing, Myra, is the reason I approved it, because it wasn't the only way to get to the upper floor or down from the floor. And they had directions for alternative ways. So to me, I said, if they can make that visible enough, I don't know, I mean, for people with visual impairments, you know, like you can know about, there's another entrance, don't use this one. You know, then I thought, and it is after the fact that everything was built and everything. And the width of the stairway couldn't be widened after that. It was too late. So that's the reason I approve that. I understand fully the challenges it's going to impose on people with visual impairments. Well, not only visual impairments, it's going to be a problem for anyone, for anyone who feels like they need a handrail, or anybody going up and down in the same place. I mean, there's going to be an accident. There is. There's going to be an accident, because there's one handrail. It's seven feet wide. It's going to have a lot of people going up and down. Right, Myra. Whether you're visually impaired or not, it's going to happen. Also for people with mobility problems or elderly people without mobility problems, but who need the stability of a handrail, I think even if the data is passed, we should still be on record with our concerns. OK, well, the committee voted yes. So we're on record as far as we can be with the letter that I wrote. I don't know if anybody has any additions or deletions or comments about the letter. But I think you're right that we should send it. But it apparently is a little bit late. Not that it could have been on time, even if we'd sent it the same day. It wouldn't have mattered. So what do people think? Does anyone have any? Does anyone? How do people feel on Ruth's idea that we should send it anyway? Well, this is Tori. And I remember accepting it, but with stipulations that they would. Well, first of all, that they had a different avenue of travel for people who could not walk up those stairs with or without a railing. And the other stipulation I had was I asked them if they would put up accessible signage so that people with visual disabilities would know that there's another route of travel other than using the stairs. And they they agreed with me. I remember that they agreed with that and they were willing to do what they could to put the signage up. So there is no such thing as accessible signage for me. OK, well, that's what was said that day. So anyway, I don't see any issues with sending the letter and letting the AAB know how we feel about it. OK, anybody else have an opinion about sending the letter? I mean, does anyone have any comments on the letter that might need changing or any deletions? Very good, Myra. I think you really put it down very nicely. Tori added the chapter in verse. I didn't have the chapter in verse. She had all the regulation numbers and everything, but the rest of it I did. And so how do anybody else have any suggestions about deletions or additions to the letter? I wonder if UMass should be made aware of this letter and how this committee recommends that this does not happen in the future designs. And it never gets into this stage because they came with this. And the architects said that there is no way they can make it any wider. Well, now I can. No, yeah. Yeah, it was an unfortunate architectural decision that was not stopped by the inspector. And I guess that's one issue. And if people are happy with the letter, we can send it even though it makes no difference at this point. However, the much larger issue for me is their process that Maureen just talked about. Because if they are holding hearings before official town boards make recommendations on those requests, that's completely wrong. I don't know if it's illegal. I don't know what it is. But it's not OK. And I don't know who schedules their meetings, but they ought not to be allowed to do that. I don't know where they get their permission to be for autonomy from. I don't know what regulations they have that govern when people have to make application and stuff. But there are always regulations like that. Do you know anything about that, Marty? Yeah, I was just going to look it up. It'll take me a minute. Sure. Maureen, do you remember any other instances in which? Do you remember specific instances in which it happened that they made their decision before the committee even could meet about a request? It's often. Yeah. I'm sorry. What did you say? It's often, if not often, especially with COVID. And I think it's because that they can hold their meetings in a much more timely, timely and efficient manner than before where the applicant would physically go to Boston for these meetings. So now you can have a meeting, a drop of a hat. And so that's my gut feeling of what may be happening. And I'm sure there are regulations on this. And I can certainly look into it if Marty is not able to find it. In the next few minutes. And I can certainly contact the whomever has the jurisdiction on this and remind them of the regulations. And what's actually happening of the application that this committee receives is damped and the hearing is breaking up again. Oh, sorry. I can certainly look into this and find out what are the regulations regarding this. Because if there is a process, it should be respected. Yeah. There is a process. I just looked up. There's no timeline on their website. I would suggest. I don't know who the new director of MAAB is. Tom Hopkins passed away a couple of years ago. And after COVID, I haven't been in contact with them. But it would seem that contacting whoever the director is or his assistant. And I've forgotten what his assistant's name is. I can look it up and get it to you, Maureen. But you should have a conversation with them about the process and making sure that we have the ability to review prior to their enacting a variance application. Because it's specifically copies of the variance application are required to go to the building inspector, the local independent living community, and this board. What do you mean by local independent living? Stavros. When we do it, you have to send or deliver it, the full application to each of those parties, either by certified mail or personally. We don't get it by certified mail. We just get it by regular mail. You're supposed to get it certified. I'll certainly look into this and provide everyone an update about this at the next meeting. Yeah. Thank you, Maureen. Yeah, I totally don't think they should be allowed to do this at all. I mean, what's the point of a process if you're not going to follow it? Sure. Well, it shouldn't have a schedule. Yeah. They should say two weeks or three weeks within receipt of the application, they'll hear it. And that would give this board two weeks, which might mean that you're going to have to have more meetings or at least special call meetings. How do people feel about that? The idea. If there's a variance to be heard, then that's part of our responsibility. And we should be doing it before they make a decision. Yeah. OK, so do you think we should put anything in writing? Or do you think that having Maureen make a phone call is sufficient? Well, why don't I make a phone call, find out what they have to say, then I will tell you all, give you guys an update on that the next meeting. And then perhaps based on what I tell you, either the issue has been resolved or perhaps a follow-up email from this committee would make sense. Yeah, I think besides talking to them, there needs to be some kind of follow-up either through an email or some kind of memo that's sent to them. I mean, some of it may be that they just aren't thinking about the fact that they need to offer an opportunity before they vote on something to give committees like ours an opportunity to give input. That's sort of their job. Yeah, it is, but they need to be reminded. I guess I'd like to make a request if it seems reasonable to everybody. Maureen, when you speak to them, could you please not wait until the next meeting to let us know what happened in that telephone call? But if there is something you need to tell us, just send us an email that said, I had a phone call. They're terribly sorry. These are the regulations they will follow in the future. Or I had a meeting. I'm not pleased. We need to write a letter. Because I'd like to send the letter next time. I don't want to wait until March to do that. Sure, yeah, that makes complete sense. So what I'm going to do to be fully transparent is I'm going to do a little digging myself and try to find the regulations specifically under Massachusetts State Law and go to the website, see what the website has to say through the MAV, and then speak to a human being to hear what they have to say. And then I'll report back to you guys at the next meeting, if not sooner, by email. Of course, can't be emailing back and forth, but I can certainly email you all as a committee the information if you feel as individuals. And I'm looking at Myra as the chair. Based on my email, if you want to go ahead and draft the memo to the MAAB, then we can review that at the next meeting. Does that make sense? Sounds like the committee, at least some people have said that they think we should send a letter. So yeah, that disturbs me. Anyway, I'll get over it for the moment. OK, so this letter that is about their regulation we should send, because we're requesting that they not change the regulations in Massachusetts, so it's not relevant to the decision that was made because this board did vote to approve it. So we're not going to fight the decision this board did vote to approve it, but we want them not to change the rules to be less strict. Sure. But we also want them to have enough of a time frame so that groups like ours can give them input into what is being asked. Oh yeah, but it's a different topic. I don't want to mix the topics in the different letters. This one is just about this particular regulation and how they were, according to the building inspector, they were considering changing it to less and to make it less strict, to make it not have to, that they could have one handrail on a staircase by right instead of having to come for a request. And OK. I didn't realize that's what you were talking about. Yeah, that's what this letter is. I have a question on the whole thing. The reason they said that they cannot put handrails on both sides of the stairway because the stairway is narrow. Now, how did that stairway became narrow? Did they ask for variance before the handrails that, sorry, we have only this much room and we cannot make the stairway any wider than that? Or is it an acceptable thing to have the stairways as narrow as six feet or five feet or eight feet? Or is it up in the air? What they said was they couldn't put the second handrail on because of the way they put that stadium seating on the side for people to congregate. And if there was a rail there, people wouldn't be able to get up onto the, that it would interfere with the moment of traffic that they wanted to do it. And I asked why they didn't put it in the middle so that they could have that. And they said, they said they couldn't put it in the middle because it was only seven feet wide. And three and a half feet wasn't wide enough for them. And then we talked about, I said, it should be nine feet wide instead of seven. And they said, yes, indeed the other staircases that are the ones that Tori talked about, the accessible staircases are nine feet wide. This one they didn't do, I think their original intent was not to split it in the middle but to put a rail on the side until they figured out that it was going to interfere with the traffic pattern for people who could walk around there. I mean, that was my understanding of it. Yes. And what it seemed was the real elephant in the room about this specific case that it seemed that the applicant UMass had already bought materials. If not, they had already purchased some materials and it seemed that they perhaps had already started construction. And I thought it was completely built. It might have been. But so what should be happening is that a variance request should be requested before any work is started. Perhaps even materials have been purchased. And it seemed that a lot of people failed on the applicant side on this. And that's how I think how this all started sort of broke down, which is unfortunate. After this committee did make their motion to make the positive recommendation with those specific suggestions, there was a dialogue between the applicant and David Hull about how this was an unfortunate situation and that they this is a learning lesson and that they would anticipate that this would, that a variance request would not be submitted at the last minute and that should be scheduled out in a much more timely manner. Okay. So we need a motion about whether to send this letter, which is not about their timeliness at all. It's about the change in the regulations that they are considering. And Marty, I don't know that you need to recuse about that because that's not relevant to a decision this committee made. Sure. I mean, I think it's, you know, you ever, it's just about regulations. Move that, we send that letter. Okay. We have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. Okay. We should, is there any further discussion about the letter specifically? Okay. Do people want to vote? We need a roll call. So people just, Maureen, do you want to call it? You want to just have people shine. Sure. Saren, yes or no? Yes. Yes. Tori. Yes. Ruth. Yes. Elise. Yes. Myra. Yes. So that was six, zero, yes. And just other one other point I wanted to just to clarify. So the MAAB does have a draft regulations that have been in draft form for the last few years to stay. And I think David Holmes out of abundance of caution, you know, suggested that this committee write the memo to the MMMAAB about the hand railing section. I did take a look at the draft regulations. It does not cover hand railings as of right now and they're not proposing to change the regulations regarding continuous hand rails on both sides. But he did suggest it and that's what you guys just approved to send to the MAAB to reinstall that it is important to you that there should be hand railings on both sides of your case. Okay. All right. And Maureen, you're gonna let us know after you've had that phone conversation with them about their process. I mean, I'm sure it's not reasonable for us to ask you to do this and I won't ask you to do this. But if you happen to figure out or remember any things that were active upon by them prior to even a request coming to us, that would be good to know because if we had specifics, you know, if this was the first time, okay, maybe whatever, but if they've been doing this a lot, they can't do that. They just can't do it. Okay. North Amherst Library. I don't know what that's about. Yeah. So I just wanted to give you guys, so you know, one of my roles, sorry, I'm just moving my screen around. One of my roles here is to give you updates about town projects or have other staff members come in and give you guys updates about upcoming town projects, either new building or renovations of buildings or for parks or parking lots, et cetera, et cetera. So the town is renovating the North Library. It's located on Montague Road. They're also building in addition to the library. And it does exceed the 30% of the value, cash value of the building. And so they're required to make the entire building ADA compliant, meaning that they have to meet all AAAB regulations and they are proposing to do that. So the addition will be fully ADA compliant. They're adding a elevator lift. The hallways leading from the new addition to the existing building will be all ADA compliant. The bathrooms will be ADA compliant. They will have a new entrance to, they'll be adding a new entrance to the back of the building. There is existing entrance that faces the, I guess that would be the southernly side of the building. So the new entrance will be ADA compliant. They'll be adding parking spaces. There'll be a few of them that will be ADA compliant with all ADA walkways and entrances leading into the building. It's still just a very beginning skips. I saw a very draft form of the plan a few weeks ago in a planning department meeting. And as this application becomes more and more real, we'll of course have the architect come to a meeting to walk you through the design and hear any comments or feedback that you have for them as they, I believe they'll need to go through the planning board review process for a site plan review. But I just wanted to give you a heads up about those plans. Didn't they come to us once for something to do with their proposals for that? I don't recall. Anybody remember that? I don't remember what they came asking for. But they didn't know if it was that. It wasn't for the North Library. It was Sharon Sherry, the library director who came to a DAAC meeting last year regarding the Jones Library. No, it wasn't that. Does anybody remember what I'm talking about with North Amherst Library? No, I didn't think North Amherst. I don't think we saw the designs, but there was probably some discussion about it. Yeah, I think there was, but I don't, we have to check back. I remember there being a discussion about a building and I believe it was a library, but it wasn't going to be able to be made accessible. The building was too, it was like a landmark or something. I don't remember. The existing building. Oh yeah, they couldn't change the front. Isn't it the one with all the colors? What if it was a Munson Library? Maybe not. No, it's right at the intersection with them. North Amherst Library have a lot of different colors. I don't think so, but it's at the intersection where one road goes to Montague and the other one goes to, I can't remember now. It's at that split in the Mill District. I'm not sure the building I'm thinking of was a library or not, but they came to us and they said that they weren't going to be able to make changes to make it accessible. Maybe to the existing structure. Maybe it was without the renovation project, Tori. What? Maybe it was before they got the renovation project planned. Maybe. Yeah, maybe they said they couldn't make the existing building. Because we were thinking of the libraries being made accessible. You know, maybe that was the reason, yeah. All right, well, if nobody remembers anything specific, we'll wait to hear, but now we're on alert. At least I feel like we're on alert. Also, Pat, didn't we also have a discussion? Wait, I'm sorry, two people talking at once. I don't hear. Sorry. I don't know who it was. Serena Ruth? Ruth, Pat, didn't we also have a discussion before we disbanded town meeting at the town meeting about this? I wasn't there for that. I don't know. Does anybody remember that? I don't remember that in town meeting, but I can try and find out. Okay. All right. But I was going to say, Myra, I hope they give us enough time to look at the designs. Exactly. I think that's what I meant by now we're all on notice that things can get done outside of what we think the processes should be. If people just do it, you know, you know, the new thing is to say you're sorry instead of ask for permission. So we have to watch for that. That's a new way of doing things. Yeah. Okay. So Maureen. On South Pleasant Street. 35 South Pleasant Street came to us with variants a million years ago. Not even. And to, because they had to put a ramp. To go into the Chamber of Commerce building. And they had to pass it by Austin jeweler or. And, and it was, there was. No good way to do it. Did that. What happened with that? So, um, they did put in the temporary ramp as we're all aware of last year. Right. I believe that ramp is no longer there. I have not heard. About any future plans. Well, let me back up. So they put in the temporary ramp last year. While they were work actively working with a architect with Cune riddle. Of designing a permanent ramp. That would require a variance request. So they came to this committee last year. And presented you the design. Even before they were going to present. Formerly submitted to the. AAB. You, this committee provided recommendations. I believe they were positive recommendations. I would have to go through my meeting minutes. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Later COVID. Took over the world. So. Okay. It was only. Months. Okay. Okay. They just. Their attention. Where I can certainly reach out to. The. To see if. On that. Okay. All right. Thank you. What, what do. Oh yeah. The next one is about the report. Yeah. So. Good old report. It has been reviewed by staff. And so I'll back up. So the town updated self-evaluation and transition plan. Which evaluates all our town facilities, such as buildings, parks, parking lots, trails. For ADA compliance. So we had consultants. Over the summer physically come here to town. They did their. We had surveys. We had. We had the consultants come to a DAC. Meeting. Where they gave a presentation about the project. And. And, and took comment and feedback. By community. So. There was a survey that was sent around to town staff. To individuals. With disabilities in particular. But of tall individuals. And to organizations. That focus. That assist with. Persons with disabilities. And. And, and took comment and feedback by committee members. There was a survey that was sent around to town staff. To individuals with disabilities. But again. And. And consultants reviewed policies and programs. Plan takes a look at all of these sorts of items and they came up. They finalize the plan and it's been reviewed by staff. So I will, I would, I'm planning to give this committee a presentation about the whole project. And I would like to hold that. Okay. We include the findings of what, what they found. It is. So there is an. Accessibility report for each facility. They did a very thorough job. So I won't be able to go through every nook and cranny. For each facility. I might do a sort of. I might just focus on one facility to show you a sort of sample or maybe. Show you little bits and pieces from different facilities. These accessibility reports. On average, or about a hundred pages for each facility. So, and those get into their, their specific findings for each non-compliant item that they find in each facility. So that was limited to places that are open to the public. So they weren't going into areas that are for just staff. So for instance, they didn't go into basements that we, you know, in some of our buildings, we have areas that are for storage, where we have file file cabinets and stuff like that. We don't have volunteers or, or members of the public that go into those areas. So that was limited to areas that are open to the public. Pre and post COVID. And so I would like to just, you know, walk you through the report and then talk about the next steps, which is implementation. So I've been speaking to department heads. They're sort of their areas of concentration. So, you know, I've spoken to human resources, the planning director, the building commissioner, the DPW superintendent, for example, and talking about, you know, the findings for areas that they're, you know, responsible for. And I've also spoken with our finance director about having to, you know, I've been working on that for a long time. And he said, sure, that sounds great. So I've been. Working to have that officially added to the capital budget. On a rotating on a continuous basis. And so. You know, I've been working on that for years as well about this whole process and about, you know, making sure that. The ADA improvements are part of, you know, all town projects for renovations or new construction. And that all grants. That we're seeking should incorporate. You know, a lot of those grants. Or, you know, or of course, making sure if it's new construction that it is ADA compliant. So there's been a wealth of grants coming through the town of Amherst because of COVID. There's been a lot of COVID relief grant. Opportunities. And we. Has in a lot of ways been perfectly timed for, so planning staff. We've been referencing the transition plan for every grant that we're applying for, for our town facilities. So it's been already been helpful for. That we've either already applied for in the last six months or, or applying for right now. And, and it will be. It's definitely a living document that we are referencing. So, yeah, so I hope to give a presentation at the next meeting. This committee is interested. Comments. I'm interested. This is Tori. To hear. A presentation about it. I think we're all. Interest. I would like to know. A couple of things. What. Might the role be for this committee. I think we're all going to be. First of all. Back up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For including. Accessibility. Into the capital plan. Not as an afterthought into whatever project they're proposing. But as its own. Specific item. That they're going to have to this year, we're going to make X, Y or Z accessible. We're going to make sure that, you know, accessibility, I think the way you phrased it is going to be at the forefront of any of, of, of things that are proposed to be done. My reading of the line item is that. It's sort of belongs to this report as retrofit accessibility. That has its own line item. Am I reading that right? Whether they. The capital budget item would be for renovations. Or for new. Is that your question? Yeah, I mean, it seems to me like. I don't think that's really been defined. Of would it, would it be limited to renovations? Or could it be for, for a new, new construction? Could it be for a new, like a new conservation trail? That, that we would want it to be ADA accessible. So that's just like one example that jumps out in my mind. Yeah. I don't know. Or it could be for listening devices. I, I don't know if. I don't think the town has thought that through yet to be honest, but what are your thoughts of. Would you want, if there was a line item for ADA improvements, would you want it to limit it to certain projects? Or would it be sort of opened ended of. New constructions or, or software or, or new construction? What are your thoughts? comments. I, I would not want to limit it with a list. Unless we give a list and then say, but not limited to this list. Something, you know. Because something might come up that we're not thinking of. That needs to be done in the future. I would not want to limit the list. Anybody else? Maureen, do you have any idea how much money you're talking about? And the reason I ask is, I was on the architectural access board for the university for about 30 years. And I did the first transition plan. And we got the university to commit $400,000 a year in a line item that we used. It could be rolled over every year. So we could amass some money to be able to do a major project. But we always held money aside for immediate things. When somebody, if you had an employee who needed software, if you needed something for a constituent, someone living in town, in order for them to make it accessible, you had that money that you could do something with either purchasing something or doing it within house staff just for immediate needs. We all know of some projects that took way too long, both in town and at the university. But those kinds of monies are helpful in solving immediate problems. Just a thought. Great idea. No, great idea. I mean, I was 100 years ago, I was on the Joint Capital Planning Committee for about five years. And there was never an amount of money that anybody knew was going to be forthcoming. So we didn't have that kind of budget. I don't think the town has anywhere near the university kind of budget. But even if it were a certain amount that we knew would be allocated each year that could be held over or used, I think that's a great idea. So that's the next step from what you talked to them about, Maureen, which is, OK, you're going to put a line item for ADA compliance or accessibility issues or whatever we want to call it. And there's a certain amount of money that's going to be budgeted there. They always hold things over on every line item. Not everything gets spent every year. So yeah, I love that idea. Because then after we could say, in three years, we're going to have enough money or we're going to plan to have enough money to be able to do X. Or this year, we're going to be able to do Y because we need to do it now. I love that idea. So if you need a door opener somewhere, that's a $10,000 item. But if you had a budget every year of, say, $20,000, if somebody came forward and said, we need a door opener on this door because someone's using it all the time and they need to get in, you would have that kind of funds to get somebody in to do that relatively rapidly. Some of the things just hang around for so long. And they're really small things. This is really good feedback. I'll definitely make a note of this. And I'll look into L asset question of town staff and look into what is the specific process for getting this onto the capital budget. I do know, I'm trying to look for my notes here. Is Pat still there? Yes. Aha. What do you think, Pat? How do we do it? I don't know how to do it. But I like the idea. What I think I will do is talk to Paul, if Maureen, if you could send me the portion of the minutes that say exactly how this fund works or Marty, if I could be in touch with you. Oh, you can call me anytime. OK, can I have your number? My number's 413-575-1020. Then I can talk to you a little bit more and get clarity about it. And then to the town manager, that would be wonderful. And I'd be happy to do that. My understanding is that the town council ultimately puts together the budget. The town manager ultimately puts together the budget. But you have to approve it. What you can do is approve or disapprove a line item. We can't add money. We can reduce something. But this feels really important. So I'd like to get clarity so I can talk to him with some kind of intelligence. So is that OK, Maura? So essentially, he'll give you an amount. You're not allowed to increase? Right. In other words, if we were to budget $25,000 to buy light bulbs, I'm making this up, believe me. We could say, oh, no, we want $30,000. We can't do that according to the new charter. We could reduce it to $20,000 or $15,000. But we have so much budgetary power other than overall approval. And not approving doesn't do anything, really. It's a flaw, I think, in the charter. But so getting Paul, getting this proposed to Paul and to the JCPs, the Joint Capital Planning Project would be good. We can get Kathy Shane in on that. She's the chair of that committee as well. Yeah, that would be great. And perhaps, Pat, you could either email everyone on update if you get this information sooner. Or yeah, I would suggest sending everyone an email of whatever update you can get us, and then you can give us oral update at the next meeting. Sounds good. Cool. OK. Great idea. No, it's very good. And then I did another item to talk to you about, which is another grant. So as I said, me and other planning staff have referenced the ADA plan several times as part of our grant application. So the latest one, which is developing right now, is that the planning department is collaborating with the senior service, the senior center, about a mass DOT COVID relief grant. It's called the Shared Streets Grant. This is the second phase, I believe, that we're applying for the grant. And we received a grant through this program in the summer. It's about nine minutes ago, five notifications. Sorry, that's not my. Oh, maybe it is. Maybe it is. Sorry. And it's just my phone. Sorry. Oh, that's fine. It's even turned off. It just does that. That's fine. So the DOT grant, we received a grant in early fall for promoting outdoor dining outside. You'll see there was light fixtures added and tables and umbrellas and things of that nature. That was the first round of the DOT grant. So this round, they are taking grant proposals from communities. And this time, we are working with our senior center. And we would like to provide as part of the application a accessible route to the health center at the bank center. If you're familiar with the bank center, there is a very clear case that leads you down to the Musanti Health Center. The staircase is in bad repair. And someone in a wheelchair can't access it because it's stairs. So let me pull up my. Where are you talking about? It's at the bank center. So inside the front door and you go to the stairs toward the right by the. No, well, OK, so there's many door entrances to the bank center. It is, let's see, if you are familiar with. So I guess if you were at the southerly side of the bank center, there is a door there. I'm actually not talking about that door. OK, but there's a staircase there. The staircase brings you down to the back side of the bank center and at that door entrance on the backside that leads you to the Musanti Health Center. Exterior staircase you're talking about outside? Exterior. Say that again, do you disappear exterior or interior? Exterior. OK, I don't even know about it. All right. Neither. Let me pull. So unfortunately, in perhaps at least won't be able to see it. But I can pull up Google Maps to show. I'm familiar with it because I live like practically a stepping stone away from it. Oh, of course, yeah. So give me one second. Somebody else said they didn't know it was there. Well, so think of it. It is there. Yeah. The staircase is not in the best repair. It's there's a lot of steps there are crumbling. And there's a much better way. And also, the staircase leads you to the entrance door to the health center. But it also leads you to the Clark House. And so there just isn't a good connection between these facilities. So I'm going to try to share my screen. Does everyone's for those that can see, can you see the Google map? Yes. Yes. So this is the bank center right here. And so there is a door entrance here that leads into the bank center. I'm actually not talking about this door entrance. Now, unfortunately, the trees are blocking the view. But if you follow my mouse, I'll try to take you on this ride here. So there's a staircase that leads you down here. It's a pretty steep staircase. And it brings you down here. And then the door to the health center is on the backside here. And so the staircase leads you there. It also leads to this existing walkway that then connects to the Clark House. And then maybe arguably, I forget what the name of this housing center is on Kellogg. Anne Whalen. Oh, Anne Whalen. So I think there is even a walkway that leads along here. And then it connects you back to the Sweetser Park. So let me pull up. So if you're not, if you can't do a staircase, how do you get from the front of the building to the back? I mean, is there a big, big steep? That is a very good question. I believe there is on the front side of the bank center, there's a walkway here that leads you along the building. And I believe it will bring you around the building. Now, if you are coming from the southerly side, if you're coming from the town common and you are trying to get to the health center, you would have to go all the way around the building like this, like this, like this. Or so this would provide a much safer and time-efficient way to get to the health center from the south part of town. So if you're coming, again, from the town common area or from the town hall, this would be the fastest way to get to the back side of the bank center. There's no parking there, right? There is parking that's located outside of the bank center. In the front. There is, yep. But not in the back. Maureen, isn't there a staircase and interior staircase and elevator access that gets you down to the floor where the health center is? And then it's just a little trip from the hall. If you go down on the lower level. I think she might be talking about that facility could be used when the building isn't open. Gotcha. Thank you. If you go into the front entrance of the banks and you take the elevator down to the lowest level and then you walk as if you're going into the large room at the end of the hallway. Yes. Immediately before that, you take a left, and I think there's a sign there that says health center. And then you go to the left and then you go to the right and I think you get down that way as well. But yeah, whoever just said this, it's a good point. The health center may be open at times at the bank center. So the bank is the overall building. Gotcha. Those doors may not be unlocked. And so it would be good for another route for people to access the health center. So let me pull up this. Hold on a second. So I'm sharing with you a plan. This is the existing conditions. So here's the entrance to the bank center. This is the parking lot. Down here is where Johnny's Tavern is. And these are the stairs that lead you down, the existing stairs that lead you down to the John County Health Center. Those stairs are in very poor condition. And of course, they're not accessible for someone in a wheelchair. So the proposed plan is that this is the top. Again, back at the self-entrance door here, the existing door. This is the existing parking lot. They would be adding a ramp that would go down. There would be a landing midway. And then it would lead you down to a sitting area. There would be four benches. And then it would then continue down through this ramp. There would be a landing located here. And then it would terminate to the existing walkway. And you could either head east to the Clark House, or you could go to the John Moussanti Health Center entrance door. And then here is a more detailed plan. This shows you the dimensions. It would be a five-foot-wide ramp. And it shows you the length of the ramp. It shows you the slope. And it shows a little more fine-tuned specifications of the plan. And so we are applying for this grant is due on January 29. Doesn't mean that we hope to get it, but it's not a definite. But this is something that the senior center has vocalized a real desire for this to be corrected. And so the planning department is working with the senior center to submit a grant that would address this. Let me share with you one other thing. The grant will also get into, I guess, a lot of seniors have an informal walking route for exercise. And it goes around. I'm not too specific on this information just as yet. But I guess there is a walking path that goes around the Bang Center and the Clark House and Anne Welland. And as part of this grant application, we might try to see if we can formalize this walking route with maybe fun pavers or little markings on the sidewalk. So folks, and perhaps signage, so folks know where this walking path would go just as a way to promote it. I'm not sure the length of it. I don't know if it's a mile or less. But perhaps the signage can be those sort of specifics. And then the grant would also get into, let's see, I'm going to go to Street View. So bear with me for one second. This crosswalk right here that connects the Bang Center. I believe there's a cafeteria in here. I'm not exactly too sure. There is an entrance here. And this crosswalk is in bad repair. And we've been told that you can really tell if I were to turn this around and I'll try to do that. This is a blind spot. When someone is walking or in a wheelchair and they're trying to cross this crosswalk right here, there is a line of sight issue. And people feel uncomfortable that they might get hit from a car while crossing the street, even though there is a stop sign. So we're looking into what sort of if this could be redesigned, maybe with ballards, to sort of protect someone that's about to enter or cross this road here. So the grant would include that as well. So the planning department was wanted. We wanted to inform you guys of this grant proposal and see if you wanted to share any comments or recommendations. Anybody have any comments? I would like to. It's a great idea. It is a wonderful idea. But I'm just asking that they not use brick to create the ramps. It looks pretty, but it's not pretty for someone who uses a wheelchair or scooter or even walking crutches with a cane or crutches. They fall apart. It just becomes dangerous. And I know that crosswalk that you were just pointing at, by the Baying Center, that is brick right now. So if they would please consider using a different material for the crosswalk and the ramps. I don't know what. It's said concrete on your map or your drawing there. But I just want to make sure that they don't cover it with brick because it's not a good idea. Good point. For accessibility reasons. Good point. It's not a good idea for a lot of reasons because the asphalt and the brick expanding contracted different rates. And after a couple of years, they're never even. Right. They look nice. That's about it. Only for the first couple of years. Yeah. Thanks, Tori and Marty. That's really good information. And I definitely will pass that info along. And I think we all can. Unfortunately, we can see the results of brick after a few years. Actually, there is a way to do it and not have that happen. But it's much more expensive. It's just been done at the university. It involves. No, if you want to have brick, you have to pour a concrete walk with curb and then set the brick in there. It's the only way they'll last. And they still fall out after a while. But I think your plan is really good. I think that's a great way to solve that slope problem of getting down to the museum center. I think that would be a great asset to the town. Are they going to take the staircase? Is the staircase coming out as part of it? And it's only going to be ramp? Or is the staircase going to be repaired as well? That's a good question. The staircase will be repaired. I just want to make sure. I understand the problem with the brick. I just want to make sure that it's just not a broad open space. That for blind people, big open spaces are terrible. So there has to be some kind of a boundary to the space. It could be a curb. It could be a different kind of paving on the side. It could be grass. It could be anything. As long as it's just not a big open plaza, that you can't figure out where you're going. And I obviously can't see the picture and didn't have it in advance, so I don't know. But it can't just be a big open place. It has to be a demarcated walkway. That's a good point, Myrna. You might want to put the railing on the inside all across the little plaza, so that someone who's blind could follow the rail to the other leg of the ramp. It could either be a rail, or it could be something just in the pavement, or it could be a grass, or it could be a curb, or it could be, you know, I don't. Well, there's grass there. There's grass. Well, you know, it can always follow grass, a boundary. Anything that's a boundary instead of just a big open space. The worst thing for blind people is like parking lots, or, you know, any kind of big open spaces that you don't know where you're going. So as long as there's a clear boundary that you can follow on the walkway, you're fine. And then you'll have it. Something tactile. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good information. All right, is there anything else? I have a question. When we were interviewing Marty, I think, maybe the other candidate, Paul Buckleman said that there might be a consideration of a roundabout at Pomeroy Lane and 116. And I think we need to talk about that before they do it because I absolutely oppose anything like that. It is so dangerous. That is a school crossing to put a roundabout there instead of a stoplight is such a bad idea and he was thinking about doing it. So we have to have a discussion about that and I'd like to know when that might be coming up because I think it's a real serious issue. No, that's really good information. And I have passed that information on to the planning director about your experience about having a roundabout specifically persons with a visual impairment that have difficulty maneuvering a roundabout walking around it and... Well, there's no light. I mean, it's like bumper cars. Cars go through and you have to get across sometime when there's no car, there's no line. And it's a school crossing. The kids who come from Orchard Valley have to cross the street there. There's a light and they to grow to Crocker Farm and it can't be a roundabout. I mean, there really has to be a very serious discussion. I don't know where that is, but Paul Buckleman mentioned it. And we have to really talk about that. Sure. Cause they already did it in town and it was a bad idea there and it's going to be a bad idea at Pomeroy Lane. Sometimes the stoplight just has to be there. Myra, is there, I will check in with Paul about where they are with that, but if this committee could send a letter or an email to him now, saying this, if you all agree, and I think it could be pretty critical. I will get an update about when it's coming on the agenda again and where it is and get back. Oh, wow, okay. Myra, that was with my interview. It was yours, okay. Yes, and I'm still trying to get the answers to whether the highway regulations allow us to put in walk lights. Because at every roundabout, there's at where every street comes into the roundabout, you could put a walk light at each of those that would stop the traffic so you could get across. If it can be done with a light, that's a safe light, I'm okay with it. The one that's in town doesn't have a light. No, I know. That's what, but I was, you know, we have crossing lights in a lot of other areas. And if we could have pedestrian crossing lights at the four intersections of a roundabout, that would solve, hopefully would solve your issues with the visibility. Well, it's also a school crossing. There's little things. Well, yes, it would also help with the school crossing. Yeah, I mean, there's little kids, they're a six-year-old, so they have to walk to school. No, I agree with you. I think that may be our best solution. And, you know, it might be something that the town actually takes up as part of the planning that all future roundabouts have walk lights. And maybe this committee works on getting the funds to put lights at the one in the center of town. Okay. I believe that came up in one of our meetings a long time ago before the roundabout at Triangle Street was created. And they said something about not having the space to do what we were asking them to do. We wanted more light there and we wanted some safety, what you're talking about. They've got plenty of room to do that. That's not a, I don't know what they were talking about because there is- I don't want to be there, but I remember having pushback when we had this discussion. And I kind of remembered, Tori, that that would slow down the traffic. Something, yeah. I believe that was part of it. But they should slow down, especially- That's the whole point. Right. And especially on a school crossing. It depends on who looks at it. They just want some people to not be following it. So, Marty, with your suggestion, so are you suggesting like a push button? Yes. Yeah, just so that, if you don't need it, you don't have to use it. Do you know of any- They have to be audible signals. I mean, you have to be able to find them. It was just gonna say that. Yeah. Definitely audible. I don't know where any are located, but that's what I've been trying to get hold of is the person I know who knows all the federal highway rags. Aha. That would be fabulous. This is a state road, I believe, 116, right? Yeah. So it's got to meet all of the federal highway rags. Yeah. Okay. So you want us to write a letter, Pat? Yes. Okay. Well, I guess. Anybody want to write it or am I volunteering to write it? That's sort of dumb because I just volunteered to write it. You want to write it, Marty? Marty, why don't you write it? You and I will write it. I'm sorry. I will give it a shot. And I will send it around to see what people think. Pat, how urgent is the timing? All right, that's what I have to find out. So I can let you know. The other thing is, if you folks could include me on, you know, things like this letter or other letters that would not be helpful. Okay, we should just add you to the group list. Maureen sends out everything that comes from the committee. Yes. So like we just send stuff to Maureen and then she disperses it because of open meeting stuff. We don't want to get into the speaking to each other. Although I do want to say something about open meeting. One of the things, because periodically on the council, we'll have something that we're going to need to talk about, but we can't talk about, but Lynn needs some information from each counselor. So we do not reply all. You only send it to the person who sent you the email. So in this instance, the council only replies to Lynn. So we're not. So there are ways to connect, right? That's what we do. We're supposed to reply to Maureen. Anytime she sends something out, not reply all. And then, yeah, so Maureen knows what everybody says, but we don't know what each other says. Right. And I'll be quiet. I said I was going to be quiet. No, no, no, you don't be quiet. All right. So. We need a letter, I guess that all right. The expressing our interest in making sure that the intersection of Pomeroy Lane and West Pomeroy Lane and 116 is completely accessible to people who use wheelchairs and who are visually impaired and who need a light, right? Because not having a light imperils everyone because of the speed of the traffic, including the schoolchildren. Yes. I mentioned the schoolchildren as well. True that it makes it much bigger. Yeah. You know, they'll say, well, we have a crossing guard, but you know, some kids go before the crossing guard and some people go after the crossing guard. So yeah, it has to be. It has to be a controlled intersection, whether it's on a roundabout or not. It has to be controlled from all four corners. Is that how you say it, Marty? Yes. OK. From all all entrances into the into the from all entrances into the roundabout. OK. OK. All right. I don't even know what time it is. Is it one? It's one. It's one. Maureen, can we put off one more time those minutes? Sure. Not a problem. Before we go, if you guys wouldn't mind, could could you guys make a motion about the Shared Streets Grant? Just because I need everybody want to make a motion that we support the Shared Street Street, Shared Street Grant with the changes in the paving surfaces that we recommended and with making sure that there are, you know, that there are tactile boundaries for people who are. I'll make a motion. OK, so we we didn't write anything up and we need to be. But Tori had the suggestion about making sure that the paving I don't even know how you say that was a suitable surface for people with wheelchairs. What do you say? Smooth, maybe. Oh, there you go. Or we can just put it right out there. Do not use brick. What's the language that that you would use, Marty? What are they? What's the architect language? I think smooth is probably a good word, because if you say that it meets code, the problem is is even P gravel meets code, right, which is not a good no, not a good surface to roll over. So I would say a smooth. Yeah, smooth uninterrupted would be what we would say. There you go. OK. Uninterrupted smooth surface with clear tactile boundaries. Yes, that sounds good. Great. OK, so who made the motion? I did, Tori. OK, so Tori is moving that we approve the recommendation for the grant with with the deviation from the presented plan that the that the that the surface be smooth, uninterrupted, smooth with tactile boundaries. You can write it up any way you want, Maureen, but that's essentially it. Is there a second? Yeah, I think I don't know who that was, but whoever Maureen was multiple, multiple. OK, OK, let's do a roll call for approval. Maureen, you want to call them or PPL? Myra? Yes. Elise? Yes. Ruth? Yes. Aaron. OK. Marty. Yes. Tori. Yes. Great. They're positive with making with the. The services. Wait, you're you're disappearing. We don't hear you. All right. Yeah, I think I'm having bad internet today. So make a positive recommendation for this grant proposal. The surfaces are smooth and uninterrupted by tactile boundaries for all paved surfaces. Yeah, yes. OK, so that's what we voted for. That's cool. And you're going to let us know about the AAB and I'm going to write a letter to the town about Pomeroy Lane and this was a good meeting. It was a lot done. OK, the motion to an adjourn from somebody. So. OK, I think that was Ruth. Ruth and then Tori. So sorry, I guess I think we do need to do this roll call. Myra. Yes, Elise. Yes, Ruth. Ruth. Yes. Marty. Yes, Tori. Yes. All right, we're adjourned. So we'll see you back. The next meeting, I think, is February 9th. Is that right? Yes. OK, so it's only three weeks. We might have some more business to get involved with then, depending on Maureen's conversation with the state. All right. All right. Have a rest of your day. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.