 Welcome, Analoja. My name is Mark Schlaufe. I'm the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going to hear about Alex Jampel's voyage across the sea as a lawyer from Hawaii to Japan and back again. Alex Jampel's legal career began in Honolulu, but he ultimately ended up spending the last 17 years working as a foreign lawyer for a large international law firm in Tokyo. Alex has recently returned to Honolulu where he is now a senior counsel with the local Hawaii law firm of Chunkur LLP. I've asked Alex to join me today to talk about his voyage. Alex, welcome. Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you for welcoming me back, Mark. Yeah. And, you know, before we get into what happened in Tokyo, tell me how you got there. I mean, what was your background? Where did you grow up? How did you become a lawyer? And how did you start in Hawaii and then end up in Tokyo? What's your background and briefly give us that story? Before I started in Hawaii, I was actually in Tokyo for two years. And before that, in Los Angeles for about three years. As a lawyer. As a lawyer. But before that, where did you grow up? I grew up in Japan, was born and raised in Japan, went to an international school, visited Hawaii many, many times on vacation, and eventually thought I wanted to be here in Hawaii. But I went to school in Los Angeles, worked for a firm in Los Angeles first, and they opened an office in Tokyo. I see. So you started out, you went to law school in LA, and you had a background in Tokyo already. So you already were familiar with that and you grew up there? Basically? Yes, I did. Okay. And how was your family in Tokyo? What was the background? My father was sent to Japan in the 50s. He was drafted into the U.S. Army and he did his second of his two-year stint in Tokyo and decided to stay there since back then it was quite exotic and very cheap to live in Japan. Okay. So, and he got married? Got married, settled down. A local girl from Japan? Yes. I see. I see. Okay. And then, so you ultimately worked how long in LA before you moved to Tokyo and then came back? Three years in LA where I went to law school. And then to Tokyo, they opened a Tokyo office. Back then is when they were allowing foreign law firms to open up branches or shops in Tokyo or in Japan. Okay. What was that firm? That was Paul Hastings. It's an LA-based international firm. Okay. And then how long were you there? I was in Los Angeles for three years. Okay. And then they sent me to Tokyo for two years. Okay. And did you volunteer to go to Tokyo or was it because of your background or what? I volunteered and it was because of my background. They had a lot of Japanese clients that were investing in the U.S. Including Hawaii. And what time of, what year was that? I'm going to date myself but that was 1992 through 94 in Tokyo, my first stint. Okay. And then what happened? You decided you wanted to move or what? After two years, they asked me to move to their Atlanta office because a lot of small Japanese manufacturing companies were opening up shop in the Southeast. I said no. And while in Tokyo, I worked a lot on projects in Hawaii for Japanese investors and lenders. And I thought maybe Hawaii would be a better place than Atlanta. So I decided to move to Honolulu instead. I see. And so you kind of had the background growing up in Tokyo that you came every so often to Hawaii. You grew to like it. And then you had a change of career in a way. And decided to come to Hawaii. And how long were you here in Hawaii? My first stint was about almost ten years. Okay. And who did you work for? What were your first stint? I started out with McCourston. Back then it was M3. McCourston, Miller, Makai. Yeah. And then I moved over to Chun-Kur. Back then it was Chun-Kur, Dodd, Beeman, and Wong. Now it's Chun-Kur. Okay. And so what happened? I mean, at some point you decided to go back to Tokyo. What happened? How did that come about? A lot of things were happening in Japan. My prior firm, Paul Hastings, was very active in Tokyo representing many, many U.S. and European funds acquiring Japanese non-performing loans in real estate. At that time the Japanese big bubble had burst the first time around. And there was a lot of financial opportunities but also crisis taking place. And the international firms, especially American firms were representing clients, U.S. clients, looking for investment opportunities in Japan because they were liquid, unlike Japanese lenders and Japanese investors. So what happened? How did you, how did you, you heard about an opportunity or how did that come about? They were, they were looking for more, yeah, they were looking for more U.S. based lawyers with real estate and finance experience. And Paul Hastings again. So they were good to meet back. Please come. They forgave you for not going to Atlanta. They understood why I wanted to go to Honolulu and so they gave me another shot to go back to Tokyo with them. Okay. And you took it? I took it. And what happened? What was that like? In those days, what year was this approximately? I went back in 2002. Okay. All right. And so what was it like? What was the environment like? What were you doing? And, you know, you spoke Japanese. Did you speak Japanese well enough to handle legal matters and that type of thing? Was that your background in Japanese? Most of the clients were English speaking clients, mainly the U.S. So it wasn't necessary, but it was very, very helpful because the counterparts were at oftentimes Japanese. But a lot of the documentation at that time that we worked on were English language documents because the clients were English speaking, U.S. funds mainly. And at that time, because of the liquidity crisis in Japan, they had the leverage to demand which language the documentation should be. That's interesting. So that was kind of a negotiation tool, if you will. I mean, they were able to get English as the contract language. Correct. Despite the governing law being oftentimes Japan. I'm just curious. Did you have to translate it too? I mean, did you have a counterpart agreement in Japanese or was it all English? It was primarily English back then except for certain mortgage and other official documents that had to be filed with the Japanese authorities. Okay. So you went back with Paul Hastings. What were you doing? I was doing mostly non-recourse, finance-related, non-performing loan and real estate acquisitions for the most part. Wow. I mean, that's amazing that that was the focus in those days. It has a lot. I mean, your whole experience deals with finance, really. Correct. I mean, everything that you've talked about so far has a relationship to investment in or out of Japan. And that was kind of what your career was, right? I mean, going into Japan, that's what you were doing. At various times, you were either helping Japanese go out or others come in. Correct. And in both cases, a lot of the investments were highly leveraged. And that's why they were able to, on the outbound from Japan, make a lot of investments all over. And also, the funds acquiring a lot of non-performing loans and real estate in Japan because they were able to access financing. And were your clients, the second time you're going into Japan as a lawyer, were your clients Americans mostly? Or was it all over the world? Or what was it? Mostly US funds sponsored by the major US securities companies quite often, but also European funds as well. Wow. And so, what did you do? I mean, what requirements were there of you? What did you have to pass a bar exam in Japan? Or could you do anything with Japanese law? Or what was life as a lawyer from the professional side like in Tokyo? Some international firms only had non-Japanese lawyers. And they worked with Japanese lawyers at other law firms, namely Japanese law firms, to work on transactions. Because at the end of the day, these were Japan-governed transactions and required some level of Japanese law support and expertise. You needed that side of the transaction in order to make it proper. Correct. Could you do any, I mean, what were you allowed to practice Japanese law at all? And what type of law did you practice? Paul Hastings had their own Japanese lawyers they hired. The Japanese legal regime was open quite a bit to allow for non-Japanese law firms to first hire Japanese lawyers and then have Japanese lawyers as their partners. So they've relaxed the regulations quite a bit to allow foreign law firms to fully participate in the Japanese legal market. And in my case, I would pair up with my colleagues, the Japanese lawyer colleagues, who would work together side by side to represent clients that are investing in Japan. And were you under any sort of restrictions on what you could do? Yes. What were they? As a non-Japanese lawyer, I'm admitted in Hawaii in California. I was able to only advise clients directly on Hawaii law and California law matters. And of course, it also included U.S. federal law issues because that's covered. However, when it comes to Japanese law matters, technically I'm not allowed to provide Japanese law advice. I would have to do that together with my Japanese lawyer counterparts. So you have to call in somebody from your firm? Correct. And oftentimes we staff. We're staffed together on projects. It's basically we're licensed as a foreign lawyer in Japan. And you didn't have to pass a bar exam or anything? No, no bar exams. Just a lot of paperwork to establish that you were admitted in the foreign jurisdiction that you have been admitted and also need to prove a certain number of years of actual practice, mainly in your home jurisdiction, but also sometimes it would allow, I think, up to one year's credit working in Japan for a foreign lawyer to gain that one year. I think the two-year experience now, one year, can be done in Japan. Oh, wow. And did you have to join a bar association or was there any type of requirement like that? In Japan, joining a bar association is mandatory. You can join, basically join the bar association where you will be practicing, where your office is. Tokyo Tent has three bar associations. And you just, at random, pick one. What did you pick and how did you choose that? I picked the first Tokyo Bar Association, I think mainly because my colleague was a member of that bar association and so he wanted to increase his bar association membership, so he suggested I join that. The Daiichi Tokyo Bar. Yes, Daiichi Tokyo Bar. Which coincidentally has a relationship with HBSA. Right, and we are trying to put together a trip in next April to meet with them in Tokyo. So I hope you'll be joining us for that. So you had to join a bar association, which you did, the Daiichi. And what was life like as a lawyer? I mean, was it in Tokyo, what was it? Did you go out? Did you deal with a lot of clients? Or what was the circumstances of just your professional personal life? My experience was not that different in terms of practicing in the US versus practicing in Japan. Japanese lawyers tend to work late, but they also tend to come into the office late. A typical day for a Japanese lawyer may be starting at 1030 or even 11, but they never go home. I tend to start early and go home. So you brought that to Japan. You brought your American or Hawaiian work schedule to Tokyo. So that didn't quite, not quite the same. Not quite the same, but I was fortunate in that many of my clients were non-Japanese clients. And so they didn't need 24-hour coverage. I see. And so, OK, all right. So we're going to take a break right now. And when we come back, I want to talk about you're finishing up in Tokyo and coming back to Hawaii and what that was all about. So we'll take a break right now, Alex, and be back in a minute. OK. Thank you. Aloha. I'm Gwen Harris, the host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of the supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechhawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Aloha. I'm Sharon Thomas Yarbrough, a host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of the supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechhawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Aloha. Welcome back, everybody. I am Mark Schlaufe, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. And I am with Alex Jampel. And we're talking about his voyage from Japan to Hawaii to LA to Hawaii to Japan again, Alex. So wow. A lot of voyages across the sea. A lot of voyages across the sea, my friend. You're practicing in Japan. You went back to the same firm. And then you changed firms. Correct. When did that happen, and what was that about? And did you do the same type of thing? Yeah, in Japan, while I was there, after about six or seven years, Japan got hit by another bubble burst, which was created in the US this time. It was the Lehman going bankrupt as well as Bear Stearns and some of the others. And the firm was very active in representing them. And so they decided to downsize. And I joined Baker McKenzie, which is a humongous international law firm. And in particular, I was interested in working on ex-Japan Asia projects as well. And they have quite an extensive number of offices throughout the Asia Pacific region. So again, we see your career is kind of shaped by these economic times. And you make a change. And now you went beyond Japan with Baker McKenzie. Your career or the type of things you did were not in Japan, or were they all over Asia? What did that? I stayed in Tokyo, but my practice expanded into various other Asian jurisdictions, namely Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam, and Thailand. Wow. Did you have to travel to those places? We went as a firm and myself as well on a regular basis to a number of Asian cities every year. And it sounds like these are also driven by the economy. Correct. And was this money going into those places or coming into Japan mostly? The work I did, mainly real estate oriented, was inbound into Japan less from the US, less from Europe, a lot more from Asia, as their economy boomed. And also, some Japanese clients were expanding into Asia. And I worked on not only inbound, but also outbound projects. So all your experience over the years kind of helped you represent other countries, besides the United States, as a lawyer? Correct. OK. And what happened? What happened during that period of time with your life? What were you doing? Were you thinking about Hawaii at all? I know you came back quite a bit. You did a lot of athletic things, right? I've seen you come back for, I think, swim type things, swim events, and maybe some running events or two? I've done both. I kept up with swimming. And occasionally, I felt obliged to run. So I did my first marathon in Honolulu, first and only, and probably the only one ever a few years back. I've done some of the shorter runs here. But mainly, ocean swim races, which I really like, and the ocean here is much cleaner than the ones in Japan. Did you swim in Japan at all? I trained in a pool. I trained in a pool. I see. So you didn't do the seashore in Japan? That just wasn't there. No, it wasn't there, and it's not as clean. So is that what attracted you back here? What brought you back? What brought you back to Hawaii and to the same firm that you'd left? It really feels strange after 17 years to be back, not only in Honolulu, but back at the same firm. I always thought that I would be back eventually, then quite know exactly when. But the opportunity arose, and so I took it. I continued to keep in touch with my current firm, Chan Ker, worked on some projects together over the years, representing Japanese clients in Hawaii on their projects. And so I had a good rapport with them, kept up a good rapport, and they said, we have some extra offices. You want to come back? And we had some talk, discussions over a few years. And you keep coming to Tokyo to visit, and I thought, oh, maybe Hawaii is calling me back around now, and I decided to pick up my luggage and move over just about a month ago. OK. And so you always had this attraction, and there were certain things outside of the legal profession that drew you to Hawaii all the time. And then you continued this networking, but the networking with the local law firm is really what kept your connection alive. It kept the ability to go back and forth available to you. Luckily, it helped. Luckily, there was an opening. Luckily, they needed somebody like me to join the firm. And so it all worked out. But it wasn't by design. It was just by happenstance. Sometimes wonder about that, don't you? But anyway, so are you doing the same type of work? I mean, you have this background now of representation in Japan for quite a few years. And you're coming back here to Hawaii. Do you use that? Is it the same type of work? Or is there differences? Or what are you doing? Just like practicing in Japan, having experience as a US lawyer representing US companies in Japan is very helpful. Having the experience of having practice in Japan really adds another dimension to my ability to deal with Japanese clients who are looking to do business in Hawaii and elsewhere in the US. And so that really helped. And I think that's going to improve my ability to represent Japanese companies here in Hawaii. But also, strangely enough, some of my old-time local clients are still with the firm. So I reconnected with them. And I'll also be representing some Japanese clients at the firm that I did not have a prior relationship with. And also, I'm looking to do some outbound representation of US companies going into Japan and perhaps other places in Asia. And so you maintain your relationships in Japan also? Yes. And land on your feet, no matter where you are? I hope so. And I made a lot of good friends in many different places. My prior firms are all understanding of my decision to leave. And they were very supportive. And they, of course, want to find projects in Hawaii to work on. So I'm encouraging them to find projects in Hawaii and come visit. And they have a friend here, which is really important in the practice of law. I mean, you can't really overstate that. They have a person that you've worked with and are friends with. You can trust them. And you can just give them a call or email or whatever and boom, you're doing it. So that's a real advantage. That's something that's very helpful. Yeah, that's something I feel like it's a huge asset that I have that perhaps some others don't. And also, I'd like to keep in touch with my former colleague. So the best way to do that is we can work on projects together. What do you think is the future of foreign lawyers in Tokyo? I mean, are they still in demand? Or is the situation there financially? Is it making them look elsewhere? Or what do you think? Japan is a place where a lot of foreign lawyers are working. And I think there'll be a continuous demand for foreign lawyers, mainly because there are many foreign companies very active in Japan that feel comfortable working with foreign lawyers, in addition to with Japanese lawyers. And also, there's a lot of outbound work from Japan all over the world. The Japanese companies are very cash-rich. They have a source of cheap financing. So they're going all over the world investing and expanding their business empire all over the world. So the outbound work has increased quite a bit. And having lawyers from non-Japanese jurisdictions, overseas jurisdictions, having an expertise right there in Tokyo is very helpful. Did you find that most of the foreign lawyers were from the United States? Or was it from all over the world? Or where was the variety? What was it? All over, but particularly the US, the UK. And there are many Australian-qualified lawyers in both the UK and the US firms. Did the foreign lawyers get to know each other as a group? Or did they stick to themselves or their own country? Or did they mix it up? Just like here, some lawyers like to go out and mingle. And others like to just stay locked up in their office. Working their own schedule, I guess. OK, if I'm a young lawyer thinking about going to Tokyo, I like it. I'd like to work there. What's your advice? What do you tell them? I mean, what should they know? What should they do? How can they be successful? It's a big and exciting city with a lot of big companies that are doing all kinds of things, not only in Japan but all over the world. But first and foremost, I would suggest a young lawyer to become a good lawyer wherever they are admitted into US first and get three, four, five years of experience so they can have some expertise to bring with them when they go to Japan so that they can be an expert at some level of US, Hawaii, or California, whatever type of lawyer they are before going to Japan. Because if you go too early, you may not have the exposure to your law in the home country, and then you're not really a US lawyer in practice but just by name, which is not so helpful to the clients as well. OK, we have about a minute left. What have you learned from all your voyages back and forth between Hawaii and Japan? What have you learned about life and law? It's great if you can find the opportunities and if you are willing to move once or twice or even four times like myself. It is an adventure, but it's a very good learning adventure. And for those that want that sort of adventure, it's great. And not just Japan, a lot of foreign lawyers are in Singapore, in Hong Kong, even in London. So you don't have to limit yourself to just Japan, but Japan is definitely a place where many foreign lawyers are very active. And for you, that was enjoyable. That was a good voyage. Yes. You liked it. Yes. Are you home to stay? I think so, but I would like to still continue to keep going back and forth like I did when I was in Tokyo. Right, that's enjoyable. OK, well, Alex, Jim Pelf, thank you very much. I appreciate you're talking to us about your voyages as a lawyer and in life. And it's interesting how you're ended up now here in Hawaii. Welcome back. We're glad to have you. That concludes our show today, everybody. Thank you very much. Aloha.