 We have forty-four thousand temples in the government's hands. There are just eleven thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine temples in Tamil Nadu alone, which have no prayers being performed. They are saying these twelve thousand temples will die in the next few years. The government has submitted in the High Court that twelve hundred deities have been stolen. Officially, it just simply amounts to apartheid, if you ask me. That a certain community cannot keep their own places of worship. This is the soul of the community. They can only be done with tremendous involvement and devotion. Hello and welcome to this very special episode of Frankly Speaking. And tonight, my guest is the one and only Sadguruji. Sadguruji, Namaskaram. Many people have written in to me wanting to hear from you. We had a regular interaction during the Covid period, during the lockdown. Right now, the country seems to be going through turmoil. At least it appears so when you open the newspapers and look at news channels every morning. But in the middle of all of this, you've raised a very important issue, Sadguruji. And that is the issue that binds Indians together, that binds the majority of Indian citizens together, which is the issue of Indian temples. Spirituality, religion, faith have played a very important role in every Indian's mind. And when you say that there are just eleven thousand nine hundred and ninety nine temples in Tamil Nadu alone, which have no prayers being performed, it's clearly something that worries people, not just in India, but even Indians living abroad. I want to ask you, are you serious about these numbers, Sadguruji? These numbers are not my numbers. The HR and C Ministry has submitted this in the Madras High Court. So there have been various kinds of numbers flying around, but now they have submitted in the Madras High Court that this is a fact. And the other facts also about thirty-four thousand temples has only one person who is there to take care of the entire temple, from puja to cleaning, to security, management, everything is his one person. And I happened to be, you know, this was in Karnataka. I was in Karnataka Andhra Pradesh border in the Lepakshi temple recently, because this is connected to our forefathers. I had been there over fifty years ago, which was a vibrant temple. Built by, during the Krishnadevaraya's era, fantastic stone monument, all right? And it was a vibrant living temple. Now when I went there, hardly there's anybody, only one man. I asked this one pujari, how much do they pay you? He says thirty-two thousand rupees. I said, not bad per month. He said, no per annum. For a year, they pay him thirty-two thousand rupees. What kind of management, what kind of service, what kind of atmosphere is that man able to create? So like this it is going on everywhere. First of all, see temple is a subjective affair. Unless somebody feels strongly in their heart, it cannot be done as an employment. You can't run temple with an employee, you need passion, you need devotion for that. And there was a time in this country when kings mainly built these temples. Many of them held the deity as the king, and king himself is the servant of the deity. This is how they established the kingdoms. So that is the level of devotion that was there behind this. Without that subjectivity, a temple is just a stone, all right? And that's what they're making it to be. I'm telling you, if somebody had demolished these temples, people would have built it back because that's how they would feel. Now it is being slowly suffocated and nobody notices what's happening. So if this doesn't take shape, now you said all this turmoil in the country, now do I have to raise this issue? Well, this issue is being raised because there is an election in Tamil Nadu. I have raised not just the temple issue, I raised five issues, one about Kaveri, one about the condition of our education in Tamil Nadu. And another is about bringing investments, another is about training the youth of Tamil Nadu. And temple also is one of the issues. Well, this has got a certain level of attention and rest of the things, we will slowly bring it into thing because I firmly believe that in a democratic country, before the election, every citizen of this country, if they consider themselves residents, they must clearly articulate what are the few things that must happen in their country or in their state. Now they don't say anything. After the election is over, then you protest, you cry, you make comments. This is irresponsible citizenry. I'm telling all the Tamil people, this is the time in the next two months, don't go by my five point, you tell what are the five things that you want in this state, what are the five things that must happen in this state. Everybody must articulate. Now political parties must know this is what the people want and they must make their manifestos based on that. Satguruji, Satguruji, allow me to come in, allow me to come in and ask you. You've been in the state for many, many decades. Why raise the issue now? You say and you're saying this upfront that this is because elections are around the corner. What about some people who always look at these issues through a political prism and will say that Satguruji is supporting one side of the spectrum simply because the AIA DMK, late leader Jai Lalita and now the BJP are on one side and the DMK which is an atheist party is on the other side and therefore you're putting pressure on the atheist party, the DMK. How would you respond to that criticism? See, whether you're a theist or an atheist is your personal choice, all right? I am also not a daily temple going person, but temple is not only about a certain religion. Temple is about art, temple is about history, temple is about culture. It is the soul of this community in many ways. But we have been noticing, we have been taking action about this, our volunteers have been trying to maintain many temples but in 2020 the government presented, you know, in the Madras High Court that these statistics that I'm saying that, you know, 11,999 temples, no puja happening because there is no revenue, 34,000 temples, there's only one person and 37,000 temples, less than 10,000 revenue. So all these they're saying these 12,000 temples will die in the next few years. That's what they're saying, all right, literally. So they've committed in the High Court. So it is not that these facts are made up by somebody, this is not a social media, you know, like sensationalism. This is a reality that we are facing. I'm telling you, if we go like this, in another hundred years, except a few major temples, all of them will be extinct. Already it is happening, stones are being taken away. Government has submitted in the High Court that 1,200 deities have been stolen officially. This is an official statement by the government to the High Court of Madras that 1,200 deities have been stolen, they're gone missing. And so many people are saying, some police officers have written books saying that thousands of deities have been stolen but replaced by fake deities in the last 25 years. We don't know about that which is fake, which is real, but we know there is a dilapidation happening all over the place. And I must tell you this, we have 44,000 temples in the government's hands. And we have over half a million acres of land in these temples and we have 2.33 crore square feet of built area. With this, we are getting a revenue of 128 crores. How's that? For example, the SGPC, the Gurdwara committee has 85 Gurdwaras in their hand. Their budget is over 1,000 crores for 44,000 temples with 87% of the population which belongs to the community. You get 128 crore revenue. Is that it? I mean, this is great management. So are you saying this pilferage that is happening when governments manage temples? Is that pilferage? Is that lack of attention? Is it really, in a sense, everything is Ram Bharose? See, essentially, as I said earlier, somebody who has no feeling for the temple is managing it. As you said, somebody is atheist. If you're an atheist, what's your business with the temple, I'm saying? If you're an atheist or a theist, that's not the point. You have no strong feeling for the deity, then you will not keep it well. This is not a business. This is the soul of the community. This is something that... this is the subjectivity of human beings. This can only be done with tremendous involvement and devotion. You can't run it just like an affair. Do you find it surprising, Sadguruji, the fact that our constitution lays so much emphasis on the word secular? And secular in the constitution means that governments do not have to participate in anything that has anything to do with any religion. Yet, 75 years after independence, we are sitting and talking about governments managing temples, virtually owning these temples. Isn't this irony of the highest order? See, if you read the fundamental rights that are given to every Indian citizen in the constitution, and if you look at this HR and the CE laws, it's absolutely ridiculous. It just simply amounts to apartheid, if you ask me, that a certain community cannot keep their own places of worship. So what they are saying is, many people's argument is, oh, if you give it to these people, will they manage better? Maybe they will do worse. So essentially what you're saying is, in eighty-seven percent of the population, you can't find a handful of people who have the necessary competence and integrity to manage the temples. Government has to manage the temples for us. Then if you don't have integrity and responsibility to manage what matters to you so much, it is best the government manages our children, it is best the government manages our family, maybe we are not responsible at all. Ridiculous. For all these years, Sadhguruji, the fact is that all other religions, whether it is the Sikhs, whether it is the Muslims or the Christians, they have private bodies managing their places of worship. It is only the Hindus and their temples, their places of worship that have government interference. Do you see this as a design because, you know, this started in the British era. Do you think this divide and rule policy is something that's continued with governments right up until now? See, definitely by design, but whose design? You said British era, well, Her Majesty's service did not do this. In eighteen-seventeen, the first Madras regulation was passed by East India Company, a corporate. What was their business with the temple? You think out of devotion they took it over because there was mismanagement? No, just wealth. Their idea of a temple is land, gold, diamonds, wealth. Everything that they can transport, they transported. What they cannot transport is here. I am not interested in the wealth of the temple. This is the subjectivity of the largest community in the country. Now, this whole legacy is like this. In eighteen-seventeen, the first Madras regulation happened. In eighteen-forty, there was a directive that you must release the temples back. You know why? Because the Christian missionaries protested that how can Christian men manage pagan temples? It's a disgrace. So give it back to them. Because anyway the gold was taken, after that what is our business, they gave it back in eighteen-forty. In eighteen-forty-five, they handed back most of the temples, but by then, in many small temples, managements were destroyed, so they were left just like that. Whoever couldn't take it over, they were doing it. And then in eighteen-sixty-three, they again brought back the religious endowments act. Because then they saw it is not just about gold and wealth, but there was also land. So they came back again. And then they saw by nineteen-twenty-five, temples were becoming the hubs of organizing freedom movements. So they brought back Madras religious and charitable endowments act in nineteen-twenty-five. And again there was opposition and it was converted not to Madras religious, but it became Hindu. Only the Hindus were targeted. That is because the minorities strongly protested, they released them and only the Hindu temples were held. And later on in nineteen-fifty-one, Hindu religious and charitable endowment act was passed, which was a serious draconian law and that was struck down both by Madras High Court and Supreme Court. And then they came up with another compromise. Tamil Nadu religious and charitable endowment act was passed in nineteen-fifty-nine during the Kamaraj era. So it's got nothing to do with eighties' belief and nothing to do with the present two parties which are either in power or, you know, weighing for power. Nothing to do with any of them. It is way beyond that. It is just apathy which has left it just like that. It's time to fix it. I want to ask you, Sadguruji, just recently there was a controversy regarding five crores from the Guruvayur temple donation funds which were given for COVID relief and the government, the left government in Kerala had allowed that, but the High Court in Kerala struck this decision down. Now I want to ask you, on the one hand you have the left government in Kerala doing what it wants with the donations that come to these temples. And on the other hand we have an ordinance that is being proposed in Uttar Pradesh where all temples, instead of being given back to Hindus to run them themselves, even in Uttar Pradesh, we are, you know, at the moment talking about an ordinance which could bring temples under the control of the government. Do you think on one issue control over temples, political parties from the far left to the far right are on the same page? See that is why the initial question that you asked is this, are we taking sides in terms of political parties? Is this against an atheist belief versus AI, DMK and BJP? No. I am saying all of them are doing the same thing. Whether it's AI, DMK or BJP or any other party, everybody when they are in power they are doing the same thing. So I am saying why cannot we run these temples? The community should run because this is a fundamental right and you thinking unless government runs the temples, it will not be run well is simply because you must understand the previous management broke down when the country was in occupation. And whoever was working there became the managers and slowly like owners. So there was lot of mismanagement but temples were a vibrant places of this culture. People, especially in Tamil Nadu, we call many of our towns temple towns because the core of the town is the temple. Because of the temple, there is a town. It's not the other way around. There was a town and then they built a temple. It's not like that. Only because of the temple there is a town and the amount of work that's been done is absolutely incredible both in terms of architecture, in terms of sculpture, art, engineering. There is no such thing anywhere in the world. That kind of stuff is there. But we are just letting it languish because without people's involvement this is not going to happen. Temple is not a monument to be preserved by ASI as it is being done in many places. If you leave it to the people, they will manage it in a vibrant way. Why Gurudwara's or an example right now, how they're being run and the amount of food they provide to the people, the langars that are going on and in any disaster or whatever happens, how they reach out and do work for their people, much, much more can be done by temples because if you just look at this half a million acres of land, anywhere in Tamil Nadu, the normal rent per one acre of land is approximately minimum level is ten thousand. Just imagine what is the budget that is there for the temples. With that kind of budget, you can make it a very vibrant place. You can take care of pandemics, disasters, whatever it happens in that region they will attend to it. Above all, because they're connected with the community, they can attend to it in a very effective way using the money effectively, unlike government that it has to go through a filter of a whole system. By the time it comes down to the ground, what comes down is a few drops most of the time. Sadguruji, you know, Sanjeev Sanyal in his book has written every temple had charitable endowments, including property that was given and these were the hallmark of places where dance, art, trade, even, you know, general community living really came alive. I want to ask you a party like the BJP which made its political debut or its political muscle flexing on the basis of the Ram temple movement and finally gets a court order and you know is in the process of building a Bhavya Ram Mandir. Uttar Pradesh is planning to bring in an ordinance in Uttarakhand already has brought in 51 temples under government control and in Kashi is opposing any such development or making of a Bhavya temple in Kashi itself. To what do you put this kind of obstinacy despite the fact that some members of parliament have brought in private members bills? It still hasn't become an issue within the BJP which is supposed to be a champion party of the Hindutva. See, allowing a certain amount of margin for this, political parties have their own compulsions. Variety of compulsions of their own, I don't want to get into that. All I am saying after 74 years, before the 75th freedom independence day happens, let in the center and in the states, because largely many of these are state laws, that's why I am focusing on Tamil Nadu, they must come in. How to, you know, hand over the temples to the community? You know, it need not be just done in one shot and let it collapse. It can be done properly, at least appoint a commission. Maybe a couple of Supreme Court judges can sit on it and see how it can be done. When everybody else can manage their affairs, why is it that one community, which is the majority community, cannot manage? So people will say caste, this, that, well, there are solutions for all that. First of all, show the intent. Whatever your political compulsions are, you have to do your politics, I agree with you. But this is an express concern after 75 years of pre-India, if the freedom to practice one's religion the way they want doesn't exist, what kind of freedom is that? Satguruji, you're talking about bringing in former justices of the Supreme Court in a commission. So how do you think a solution is going to come out of a commission having former judges? No, no, I'm talking about a commission with judges, not for them to take the decision, for them to evolve a process of devolution. The decision of whether it should come to the community or not doesn't arise, that we must decide in the elections. This is why I'm pitching it up now. If the people of the community should stand up and say that if you do not hand over the temples to community, we're not going to vote for you. This must be clear to the political parties, whoever they may be. I said Supreme Court judges so that they interpret the law properly. I don't want this to go to the court because if you go to the court as you said, one judgment will come this way, another will come that way based on the intricacies of law. No, I want a legislation. It is important the legislation happens because the democratically elected government means they must respond to the needs of the people and the emotions of the people. This has to happen by legislation, not by court ruling, not that Supreme Court judges should take a call on this. They must just evolve the process. Satguruji, you know, I want to ask you, Stephen Knapp, a western Vedic scholar and author of Crimes Against India and the need to protect its ancient Vedic tradition had said, government officials have taken control of Hindu temples because they smell money in them. They recognize the indifference of Hindus. They are aware of the unlimited patience and tolerance of the Hindus. Many Hindus are sitting and watching the demise of their culture. Do you think Hindus are indifferent and that is why governments do this to us? See, somewhere, if I have to elaborate on this, we have been raised, generally this entire culture has been raised. As a... this is controversial, but let me tell you, as a godless culture. We are not a culture which we believed. There's one power up there and he manages everything from there. There's one man sitting up there and he manages everything. Here we are always told your life is your karma. The way you do it is the way it happens. Right things happen, wrong things happen, it's your business. But you can empower yourself with your spirituality. The religious processes, the rituals, the devotion, all these things empower you to create your life the way you want. But the way... when you say life is your karma, we are saying your life is your making, 100%. So this is a very different kind of culture and I'm saying this is a culture which is ancient, but will be the only culture relevant for the future, believe me. Because the young people in this world, everywhere in the world, irrespective of... irrespective of geography, culture, race, religion, everywhere in the world, young people in the world want to take charge of their lives. They don't want life to be managed by heaven. So that was never so in this culture. We always told you your life is your karma. But this karma business which is the most dynamic way to handle your life, unfortunately, a certain amount of apathy and particularly invasions, you must understand innovation is not just a word. It is a... such a brutalization of generations of people that you lose your survival. Simple survival becomes your mode. You don't want to raise your head anywhere. You don't want to talk about anything. This has happened to India in a big way. For generations of people in the last 400 to 500 years, we have understood one thing, the wisdom in the Hindu communities. If you raise your head, your head will go away. To put your head down and walk. So that culture has made us extremely submissive, extremely passive. But that is going away now. The new generation which is born in free India is not thinking on those terms. They want to take their life into their hands. So when people... when youth want to take their life into their hands, the only relevant structure of how life should be handled is the way this land has espoused. Because you can... you can believe something. You can disbelieve something. You can worship them something, not worship something. You can worship everything and still you're a Hindu because essentially you believe your life is your business. If you're... and you're a seeker, you always want to know. Because you clearly recognize your ignorance. You clearly identified we do not know too much of this creation. We have to search through our life. Everywhere else it's clearly stated everything from A to Z, everything is written down and that's it. Everything we ever wish to know is all written down and that's it. This is a culture which is always of questioning, always of debate. Even when the so-called divine entities came, all they got was freaky questions, hundreds of questions. They never got around to give us a commandment. Well, very well said, Sadhguruji. It's always a pleasure talking with you because there are certain truths that we can realize only when we look into the mirror and it is almost like the mirror when we speak to you, the mirror speaking back to us on what needs to be done, what we are seeing, whatever is wrong and what we need to do so that the reflection in the mirror becomes better. First thing is we must free Tamil Nadu temples. Absolutely, absolutely. Namaskaram. Thank you for joining me.