 It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for this KubeCon 2018 Europe. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jules, the CEO of WSO2 with some big news that are introducing a new programming language called Bell Arena. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. Hey, thank you for having me. So you're now the new CEO of WSO2 in a couple months, almost a year. You guys have big news, introducing a new programming language called Bell Arena here, featuring it. Tell us a bit about what this is, what's the big story? Well, Bell Arena is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESBs are not agile and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple and agile. So take a step back, how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details and how long you've been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. Well, WSO2 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world and all of our technology is open source. Now, we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long and advanced, it requires huge teams and there's no decentralization of the work and we need to make integration agile again and in order to do that, we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done and we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been, I can only imagine another waterfall project, again coming back again and again repeating it with cloud, the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is it speed? Is it the tech? Demand for applications? What's the key? I think that what we're seeing is really sophisticated and complex demand coming from end user consumers. Companies like Uber, Slack and Amazon have witnessed this and in order to scale to meet this complex demand these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are 10xing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints, there are 50 billion right now, the forecast so that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. Totally right. I was just going to say glue layer but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now. I'll see the cloud native foundation. Pretty massive growth. I mean look at the logo slides, sponsors, just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers where with open source it's about really kind of taking pre-existing code and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security. These are all kind of operating system kind of questions. Well I think also it's open, right? I mean that is part of the key or you know it's the fact that it's open source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open source perspective, is that right? Yeah, we are the seventh largest open source company. All the software that we publish is Apache license and we've found a way to monetize open source without having to do playing open core games where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. That's great. And what's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations? Where are developers gravitating to these things? That's always a question people always look at after the fact that just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? Well first we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary but you know now they have program offices dedicated to open source and it encourages onboarding adoption and giving back to open source projects. So that trend is still significant and as a result there's a lot of open source foundations and nonprofits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation and all of its sub organizations that are there and we've also seen a resurgence in other open source foundations like the Eclipse Foundation as well. Lauren and I were talking in the opening about Kubernetes and that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or in the industry, you know you go to a standard enterprise and a lot of waterfall moving to Agile. Kubernetes is new. So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises and how should people think about the big movement to cloud native with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? I think that the momentum around Kubernetes particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it means that we have a de facto standard for a runtime platform that can engage both operations and development and in the first time over the past 20 years we do not have a fragmented market anymore and when you don't have a fragmented market the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically and I think that's why we see so many vendors here and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. It's super awesome, what do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization because with the standardization people can rally around it. Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? I think that the next level of work here is this is the year of the service mesh and really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up and that's where the standardization is going to go next. And certainly containers are great. How about security, what's your view on security because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked, is it being baked out? What's new, what's your view on security? You know I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings a spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked on add-on a thing that's applied to your applications and instead we actually need to look at programming languages and the apps that you write as being security proof from the very beginning and that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well. How is ballerina handling that? They're doing it up front, is it, what's the? Our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted and that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion attacks on that and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tax. Yeah, assume the worst, hope for the best, right? That's right. How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform? This is, you know, a different programming language like is it, you know, talk a little bit about that? This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long and you and I both started our careers but 20 years ago in developer evangelism, Lauren, right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it. That's how you do it. And what's the state of the language now? It's shipping, is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan? How are you going to roll this thing out? It is shipping now. We just hit our .970 release. We've been at it for three years. We've got a hundred committers on the project but we just went public this week with ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks and we hope to get to a one auto language lock by the end of this year. And then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2, our company will offer commercial support and have it in use in production with our customer accounts. And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe? What's the feedback? What are you hearing? Hey, the vibe is hot, right? You know, it's a new programming language. It's got an awesome logo associated with this but more importantly, the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours. And developers, you know, love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe that didn't make the trip from the U.S. or watching remote, what's the big takeaway that in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes? What's the takeaway? I think that the big takeaway that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that. And that the ecosystem is ready to support you and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant. Ridiculous. Yeah, cool. Tyler, thanks for coming on the Kube. Appreciate it. Thank you. Utterly my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Okay, live coverage here in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage after this short break.