 Good afternoon. Thanks everyone for joining us. Think Tech Hawaii. Time for responsible change. Of course, it's been time for responsible change for a long time now. So we might have to have three little dots after that name while we're waiting, but we're very patient. And we have the great privilege of having with us today. The retired judge, author, Sandra Sims, probably working on your next book, right? Yeah. Good. Look forward to that. I am. I am. I really am. And while your last book was autobiographical, right? Tales from the Benches. So will this be another fiction book? Another fiction. Sure. It'll be it'll be the collection of more perspectives. And, you know, I'm kind of looking at talking with people who have used the law, people with, you know, legal backgrounds in some other ways in which to address issues of justice. So I've run across some very interesting people. I'll probably be talking to you guys too. But some very, very interesting people in our community who've done some very different things with their law degrees to make change. That's fantastic. And we know, Sandra, that you choose your words carefully. So when you say use the law, you're using that in a constructive, positive sense. I was contrasted to abuse, absolutely. Because I think, you know what, one of the things that you've got to induce everybody else, but one of the things that, you know, I've always said about the attending a law degree and the practice of law is that it sort of really actually prepares you to do so many other things. And that's the thing, whether it's at the actual practice of law or something else. You have a skill set that takes you into a wide variety of venues in which to, you know, address issues. And, you know, and you've got a measure of, how can I say a measure of credibility that comes with, you know, having a law degree and that kind of experience that is still a value in our society. Things are sort of changing rapidly on that, but there is still value in that. We'll see. Hey, and Louise, you've been doing law for quite a number of years, several decades. Fortunately, you started when you were 12, so still young. Is that your sense also that the variations of paths that law degrees can open into continues to expand? Yeah, I've always, I agree with Sandra. I think that there are many ways you can use a law degree, and it trains you to, for communication and dealing with disputes and adversarial situations that can, you know, keep calm in the middle of the storm that can help you in other situations. We were just talking about food before this all started. So maybe the only thing it can help you with is in the food business while cooking. But, you know, I think that it, you know, look at all the lawyers who have gone into other roles and corporations as leaders and CEOs, lawmakers, of course, but it does prepare us by giving us a way of thinking and, I guess, dissecting and communicating, problem solving too. Yeah, and interesting you mentioned that because you see a lot of people with multiple degrees, JDMDs, JDMBAs, things like that. Rebecca, you've resisted the temptation for all these years. What's behind that perspective? Well, I'm a career commercial complex insurance claims professional. And so I learned subject matter expertise, negotiation and dispute resolution from that angle. And obviously, insurance is contract, you know, contract law. So I don't have a law degree, but I've learned a lot about the law in that area without formal legal training and across the United States almost all 50 states and internationally. So totally different track, very valuable experience applicable across subject matters and across industries, because insurance touches everything. Well, yes, yes. And it's really kind of at the heart of much of what is taking place in legal circles anyway. So that's probably the one area that you could go in and without the law degree have that kind of effectiveness, because ultimately, it's going to often come back to something in that industry in that kind of way of resolving disputes. That's kind of how it's going to end up anyway. Exactly right. And that poses a really good question, Sandra, for Rebecca, which is, has that perspective and experience of having to deal with law and lawyers in the insurance where law tries to dominate and control in many, many ways, and the insurance industry resists in many, many ways? How has that different perspective worked for you in dealing with law and lawyers for these several decades? Well, what's interesting about that, and you can hear I left my voice in Chicago. I was in a conference and somehow Chicago decided to keep my voice. But interestingly, of course, as a claims professional, lawyers were, I was the client for lawyers. And so for almost 30 years, my experience with lawyers and the law was lawyers telling me the law and me telling lawyers what to do with the law as it applies to insurance. In a nice way. I know exactly. I wonder what words did you use for that? Yeah, this is what you can do with your law. Yeah. Yeah, I think we just increased our viewership exponentially. Exactly. Let's make the title of the next one. Telling lawyers what to do with the law. The way I framed that was a little creative, wasn't it? Yes. Yes. Yes. But yeah, unintentionally, but it was it was effective. But yeah, I was I was the client. And so from that angle, I was, you know, a strategist became a defensive case strategist really. And the subject matters that I was able to handle in my career were across the board liability and commercial disputes. So from auto and trucking to more complex cases, although, of course, trucking cases can be very, very complex construction, product liability, medical malpractice, nursing home and assisted living litigation. Also, I think I said products but municipal I handled some touched on title nine because I handle public entity claim school boards and municipalities. So it prepared me to when I launched into consulting when I left corporate America, I started my own mediation arbitration and consulting practice and built it to a national practice because of all of my relationships across the country. And that subject matter expertise. And so I became a consultant for police excessive force cases. And some of the other cases you see premises liability commercial premises, the Las Vegas shooting case, for instance, I was a consultant on that case. Okay. And so that was experience that I was able to build and use and then roll it into yet another career mediation and arbitration, which is also lawyer dominated. Although the irony of course is that mediation did not begin with lawyers. It was, you know, the town elders who were called in to help resolve disputes with, you know, bartering of the townspeople between, you know, cows and chickens and whatever they had to negotiate with. Sure. So it really has been, you know, the story, the story of my life in a profession that's male dominated, law dominated, or as Chuck put it, the efforts and insurance has, you know, has been to insert law in some spaces where it did or didn't belong. But it, you know, it has been a very rich career. And I've learned the interdependency and the intersectionality of insurance and law. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it sounds like you may have also learned a mastering of the art of diplomacy. As we all know that it stale male and pale lawyers tend to come across pretty dominantly, pretty aggressively, pretty assertively. How do you deal with that effectively? Well, with emotional intelligence. And this is something because I know this is a thank you, Chuck, for hosting us again in a inspiring woman type episode. I know who I am. And I got that from that that is my underpinning from my family. And so I was raised to know who I am. And even in this space as a mediator and arbitrator, and a non lawyer, I have nothing to prove. And I've always known that. And so that's very powerful when you know that, you know, who you are and what you bring to the table. And that if you just do your work and let that speak for you and have and feel like you have nothing to prove, you can be very effective. And it's very powerful and inspiring to other women. And I'm wondering if one of the reasons that's so powerful is you're playing the cards that they not only don't have, but they don't know how to deal with. Yeah, I don't let other people build the narrative. The narrative is mine. And whatever narrative is around me, that's on them. I carry myself in a because I'm a non lawyer. I do carry myself a certain way, you know, in certain environments, because I don't want my name attached to certain environments. And so I am very careful about that because I recognize the jeopardy. And it's just human nature. I'm not really even pointing just at lawyers. It's just human nature. So I've learned to be comfortable in my own skin. Obviously, I stay in my lane. That's probably a key piece of it, certainly. And in dealing at that level, the profession that you are and that staying in your lane is not a thing that suggests that you are, you know, a shrinking bilateral that you stay away. But it's like, it's like you talk about that, you know, that confidence and that knowing of who you are and being able to in that lane, garner that, you know, respect from those around you that have to that are having to, you know, interact with you. And that's an important piece of the notion of staying in one's lane, because that's where you are. That's, that's your value. That's what you bring to the table. And kind of everybody around you knows that, you know, and I think that's, that's one of the things that one of the things I've kind of always admired about Louise was her ability to move in some circles, you know, very early on, Rebecca, I don't mean to be ages or anything, but I think we may be a little bit more seasoned about that. But I, you know, I, you know, I, I, I've always kind of admired that aspect of Louise sort of from this distance of seeing her kind of move into some circles and places in this community, you know, with that kind of same kind of thing that you're talking about, Rebecca, with that, you know, with that sense of the knowing who you are, but also knowing in a way that allows, and this is an important thing for, I think, particularly for women in all these fields. I think Ruth Bader Ginsburg has probably given us the best example of that, of that thing of being able to move in those spaces, but also bring the people with you that you need. It's important to develop that ability to, you know, have people come along with you. I think that was, yeah, yeah, but Louise has always been able to do that in a, in a way that those of us in Hawaii, you know, particularly women lawyers and younger women lawyers, I won't say younger, but those that have recently been licensed, recently licensed, I think is one of those, you know, so yeah, yeah, you know, and I, you know, I've done a couple of things too, and so that makes, you know, but you still, you can say you're, you're in your lane, you're careful to make certain that people, you know, give you that kind of respect and you engender that by your own personal integrity and all of those things are so key important, so yeah. But, you know, you make a distinction, Sandra, there's a difference between staying in your lane and staying in your place. Oh, yeah. Your lane is just in the house. Yeah, so, and I know, I mean, yeah, because you said you've done a couple of things, I'm like, that's put in Miley, Judge Sims, but I mean, I'm very, very proud to know both of you, obviously, and Chuck as well as our brother, but saying, you know, there have been the women's place and then, you know, areas that women were considered, where women were considered to more appropriately be, but staying in your lane just means you understand your wheelhouse and you don't overplay, you play to your strengths and you, you know, you don't have anything to prove and my secret sauce is that I'm not a lawyer in my space. Well, yeah, yeah, in your field, yeah, that may be, yeah, it is your secret sauce. So here we have three incredibly highly respected women moving in a variety of circles, which were traditionally very, very white male dominated. And Louise, how have you made that work for you? Um, I think I'm trying to, I was trying to think about that and I'm not sure where it started. And maybe it started with going to a college that was really white male dominated, I went to Yale, and it was like the second full class of women, four-year class of women. So we were only 25%, which part of you thinks, oh boy, that sounds like a great ratio, but it really isn't in terms of building a sense of sisterhood. Yeah, it can be intimidating, but you at least learn how to get along with people of the other gender. And, you know, I think part of it is, you know, go, if you go back, it's kind of, you know, where you come from, where, you know, having a good strong family base and having that maybe, you know, I can't say I've always felt super confident. I'm always thinking, oh my God, you know, how do I, how can I compare to all of these other people? But it's like you just kind of part of it as you fake it till you make it, and you just use your emotional intelligence too to kind of get to know and get along with people. And then kind of figure out, you know, where can you add value? And many times if I'm in a strange situation, you kind of think about, okay, well, you know, I've been in a conference where you say, they say, where's, what's your superpower? I haven't figured out what my superpower is, but I think it might depend on different situations. Like if I'm on the mainland at a conference that I don't know anybody, the superpower is coming from Hawaii. Because we are unique, culturally, historically, just everyday life. So, yeah, I think it's kind of like staying your lane, and your lane might differ depending on your circumstance, but you don't stay in your place, right? You try to add value. You figure you do have something of value to bring. And then at the same time, you just try to relate to people too, as individuals and, you know, not have every interaction be a fight, which can, it's not fun, you can be wearing. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great elements to bring up. Because each of you conveys so clearly and so strongly a sense that you are where you belong to be. And that's just so evident and so undeniable. That may be a part of the magic that makes it persuasive for people to recognize, yeah, you do belong here. And once you get a chance to perform, you absolutely do. Give you a quick example too. Very, very good friends from Vietnam. The incredible women leaders, one now heads up the fastest growing largest bio ag conglomerate in Vietnam. And the move away from all of the old climate damaging models to the new ones is just incredible. The other one is consultant and advisor for national and international infrastructure projects. And she always tells me every room she walks into is full of old men. And in her case, they're older Asian men. But maybe the experience and the perspective have some similarities. Because she's saying that's what she brings in, that she belongs there. She knows what she's doing. She puts it out there. And as soon as they see that, it puts them at ease. It doesn't challenge them. It doesn't impeach them. But it provides a resource and asset and guidance for them. So as we were talking about before we started, the trick is to use that wonderful set of attitudes and abilities to change the traditional male dominant WTF look into a recognition that WTF stands for women think faster. You went there. I'm there and done that. While you're talking Chuck, I'm thinking purpose. Each of us has the great fortune of finding our purpose. And we are able to affect different environments, different circles because we have found our purpose. And I believe that every human being has a purpose. But I will share that my name, the Hebrew spelling of Rebecca, means to tie, to bind, to moderate. So I'm doing exactly what I was named to do. Wow. Which I think is incredibly powerful. Yeah, we all do have a superpower. We should do a show on that, Chuck. Yeah. Okay. That'll be the next one. So where would you most like to take yours? That was that set of gifts, Louise. Where would I like to take it? What's ahead in your lane? Well, I'm thinking of the two initiatives I'm working at at the firm, which is being on the diversity and inclusion committee and then on helping with the ESG initiative, the environmental social governance construct that a lot of businesses, public and private are going into. And they both kind of come out of the same, I guess, you know, basis, which is, you know, the need to realize that we're in a, the companies need to be more than just working for their shareholders. They need to think about the community. They need to be diverse and embrace diversity and, you know, the environment and sensitive and sustainability and all of that. So I guess it's, you know, in just trying to make going beyond the daily work that we all have to do to try to have some bigger sense of purpose. It's the kind of thing that, you know, they're saying, oh, the millennials want from their work, but we all want a sense of purpose of just, you know, not just doing our everyday work, but also trying to create a better world and a better community for all of us and for the future. And I feel like we're at such an inflection point now, you know, with political divisions that we need to figure out in our own lane, in our own way, how we can contribute to making things better, saving our democracy, you know, creating a better culture, you know, making America great again in the true sense of how we should be making it great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea, so what's ahead in your lane? You've been asking me, you know, about the book that I'm working on and I have these moments of block, but the perspective that I'm working from is called Healing Justice. And depending on how you do the pronunciation, Healing Justice or Healing Justice, Justice that heals or people that are doing things that are working to heal our justice system in different areas. So you've got a list of folks that I'll be talking with that are, that I kind of talked to some of them already, you know, that are taking their, they've had careers in the legal field. And they've taken those skills to a different place to address the issues that we have within the justice system, within our society generally. And they've done some creative and imagine and some things that you would be surprised to hear. Well, maybe not surprised, but yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to give away the names, but I mean, go one, I'll describe it. She's not here, but some are here in Hawaii and some are not. One that I'm particularly, you know, excited about, you know, working with is a woman who was a Los Angeles police detective for 30 years, and she retired from that field to establish a residence in a program for girls who were trafficked. She worked in vice in Los Angeles for years. So she knows that field. But she took that passion for seeing what's happening to those, to the girls and mostly girls and turned it into this quite a program and she's quite a voice now on the national scene for addressing, you know, these issues. Incredible woman, incredible woman. Yeah. And it is Lauren Walker, you know, you guys know her here doing things in restorative justice and looking at ways in which we can resolve, particularly in the criminal area, my feel I was in criminal. I wasn't in criminal, but we can clean up, we understand. You get it, you get it. And so in that area, you know, you see a different aspect of society. And you also see what we've done as a society to allow the folks that, you know, get into our criminal justice system. It isn't that everyone just wakes up and, you know, becomes a horrible person. And they're not either. That's not a terrible, that's not a way to describe leader. But so much of what is happening within that is situational. In the situations that we are quite capable of, of resolving if we put our minds to it. So that's part of where I'm going. That's fantastic. And one of the things I think we're hearing is that each of you exemplify this movement of not just staying in your lane, but essentially expanding it through the entire multi-lane highway of moving from individual single-style problem-solving and leadership into very systemic areas. Louise with the world's largest law firm, Rebecca with the world's largest gathering of lawyers as a nonlawyer. That's pretty impressive. And that's right in the judiciary and the community. I think it's getting out of our comfort zone, right? But getting comfortable with being out of our comfort zone and adapting to that. So that we can impact the next generation. Oh, absolutely. All of the things that we're talking about will make the world a better place for the next generation. And they are ready. They don't bow to tyranny. They want to make impact. They are, you know, they are unapologetic. And if we do this right, we will empower them. I think so. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, in that circle of back to what Sunder was just talking about, which is, you're put, there is a Hawaiian process for healing justice called ho-o-pono-pono. Ho-o-o to gather, to bring together and other meetings and pono, that which is right and righteous, to make that which is right and righteous. You're all doing that. You're all taking that incredible combination of gifts, abilities, and dedication and funneling it into a systemic change responsibility that we can all learn from. What's the secret in our last minute? What's your, Rebecca, you've told us your secret sauce, Louise, Sandra? I don't know if it's a secret sauce, but I think it's probably what Louise said kind of goes back to, you know, how I was raised in the era that I grew up in. That certainly has a big part to do with it, you know, the notion that, you know, you're here to serve. You're here to contribute. I mean, that's just maybe a part of my DNA as it were. And then coming up in a time when there weren't a lot of opportunities and avenues for, you know, for women, for Blacks, Black women, all of, you know, in the field that I was in. And then this sort of expectation that, you know, you can do this. You will do this. So there you are. So I think that's a part of it, too, is that, and so having that support, not just the push, but the support from, you know, from community and family in the time that I grew up, I think that was maybe the thing that kind of shaped me, I think. Well, you folks are amazing. And as we wrap up today's time in session, I'm left with just this truly overpowering feeling that if we could somehow marshal all of what you three bring to the table into leadership, into an oval office of something that would lead this country forward, we'd be fine. Well, we need to find allies. I guess that's another secret sauce, right? We have an ally ship going on right in here. Yes. Thanks to our ally Chuck and Sandra and Rebecca. But I think that we're building ally ship circles around the things we're doing. Yes, we can all be allies. And we can, yeah, expand. Yeah. And be that bridge to, you know, bringing folks in or reaching out about whatever the case may be. We can do both of those things. Thanks, Chuck, for kind of pulling this together. I haven't thought about a lot of these things. You know, in my time, you just sort of go through your day. You don't think about that. You think about the impact you're having on other people and stuff. And I'm starting to see that and I was like, oh my goodness. I just, you know, I'm just going to the grocery store doing whatever. And it is making a difference, you know. It absolutely is. It absolutely is. So I'm going to thank you for keeping my keeping me inspired here as well. So yeah, I want to say thank you. Thank you to Chuck for, yeah, for living a life on purpose. Absolutely. And thank you all for just being and sharing who you are. That should be more than enough for any of us. Thanks, everybody. Come back and join us. We'll be back in another couple of weeks. More women in leadership, perspectives, insights, and inspirations. Take care.