 Hey everybody today, we're debating whether or not Israel's Gaza war is justified and we are starting right now with AP's opening statement apostate prophet. Thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours Hello everybody, hi James. Thank you so much for ranging this. Thank you history speaks or Matt for offering this debate We finally get to speak on Whether Israel's Gaza war is justified or not and I usually I defend the position that Israel's Gaza war Or better put Israel's war against Hamas is entirely justified When I was preparing for this debate, I prepared I was preparing a great outline a bunch of things to line up a Presentation in the middle of it. I thought to myself, you know what? I'll just scratch all of this put it up put all of this down and Just expect from the other side from Matt or history speaks To make his point in order to explain why this war is not justified I I could try as much as possible to sit here and try to justify this war and try to explain why it's okay Why Israel should fight but here is the issue Israel has been very much on the defense in terms of discussions in terms of you know arguments justifications and even militarily very much on the defense and To be honest, it seems to be very much a waste of time most of the time So I am very much here today simply to hear The response or the the attacks on Israel and the excuses and to just Deal with them a little bit Instead of trying to apologize or trying to justify anything There is one thing to point out though South Africa a Country that is an embarrassment in the world because of its terrible human rights violations It's high crime rates and its living standards that are worse than the Palestinian territories by the way Has made an attempt in public to take Israel to court on charges that That Israel is committing a genocide South Africa also demanded that the International Court of Justice make a preliminary ruling and Order Israel to take certain measures and to immediately call for a ceasefire On January 26th the International Court of Justice the ICJ published its or announced its first ruling its preliminary ruling to announce these provisional measures and Watch the ICJ did there was to Reject South Africa's demand to call for a ceasefire. So the ceasefire was not demanded. It was not announced From here you can tell something which is that the ICJ implicitly recognizes Israel's right to defend itself according to Article 51 of the of the UN UN Charter, which says that every member has a right to self-defense The ICJ currently looking at all of the evidence does not see A need to immediately call for a ceasefire This was different for example in the case of Russia and Ukraine several years ago Where the ICJ explicitly called on Russia to stop its advances immediately it did not do the same thing with Israel But somehow this is seen as a victory by the pro-Palestinian side, which is very strange So a ceasefire has not has not been demanded so far the ICJ only said that That it is plausible that some of the Violations claimed by South Africa or some of the concerns raised Maybe occurring this in legal terms basically means it is possible That whatever South Africa is alleging is happening Although the ICJ makes no remark on the strength or validity or on the strength of these claims So this is the situation that we are in the only court the highest court in the world at the moment that has said something about this war Has not deemed it necessary to call for a ceasefire and has only has also rejected to throw this case out But has just said it is possible that Israel might be doing something wrong But it's also it's also possible that Israel is not doing anything wrong and then also called on Israel to take certain preventive measures such as telling people or you know government officials not to incite violence not to incite genocide to prevent genocide to protect The Palestinian population or the population of Gaza from Genocide mass extinction whatever you want to call it. That's it. That's where we are right now Israel is waging a war against Hamas a war that is absolutely necessary after we have seen the horrible scenes of October 7th Israel is as it is recognized in the UN Charter defending itself against a threat defending itself against a threat that has been there at The border for 20 years now Almost 20 years and that has done nothing except fight fight fight and Inflict terror when we speak of Israel defending itself I think it should be laid out what exactly it means when Israel says we are defending ourselves Hamas has engaged in significant rocket barrages over the two decades significantly in 2008 2012 2014 2019 and 2021 these are significant escalations where Hamas You know conducted great missile barrages on the civilian population of Israel But this is not all throughout every single year Since Hamas rose to power in 2006 2007 Hamas has been firing rockets on Israel It's very very interesting Not funny When you go to Israel, you will see that Israelis have an app that is essential on everyone's phone. It's called red alert and It gives them a direct push notification and alert To seek shelter because missiles are coming. This is an average Israelis Everyday life An average Israeli or every Israeli has an app that tells them missiles coming Look out seek shelter Israel developed a a system of defense called the iron dome Just to deal with the fact that on the Gaza border On the other side, there is a terrorist organization that relentlessly fires Missiles at Israel and why exactly are they doing that? Are they doing that because they are being? Impressed by Israel. Are they doing that because they simply have no other chance? No, you will often see Palestinians themselves or Gaza's themselves say that Gaza was a was a wonderful place before the war It could have been a much better place. Hamas came to power after Israel Disengaged from Gaza in 2005 in 2005 It was a popular move In Israel to disengage from Gaza to remove Israel from Gaza entirely and to even remove all the Israeli Jewish settlements from Gaza and one of the arguments used was that that this will Make us more secure It will reduce the hate and friction and violence and so on and it will give the other side the chance to demonstrate autonomy and to work toward independence in fact In 2009 Benjamin Nyahu the guy who is vilified to no end today Is is the one who gave a speech in 2009 at the Bari Lan University where he appealed to Israelis in general and said? Israelis should make peace with the idea that there may be a neighboring Arab state a Palestinian state and this was applauded and he said he calls upon the Israeli People and the Israeli politicians to acknowledge and to work towards such a peaceful solution Under the condition that the Palestinian side or Gaza vows to Have peace and not resort to violence and unfortunately this requires a demilitarization of such a future state in 2005 the argument was that When Israel leaves Gaza Things will get better. They will be more security and if there is no security if Gaza turns into a hot spot for terrorism and Gaza attacks Israel then of course Israel would Reverse this disengagement and would go in and take Gaza and end this project. They didn't do that they Adopted a method of appeasing the terrorists that rule over Gaza in Gaza Hamas was elected as the as the popular government Hamas rose to power Went to a civil war and kicked out the opposing The opposing Palestinian parties took power solely for itself and started oppressing its own population Including with torture, which is something that is documented very very much by people like most of us on Yusuf Who is the son and that the son of Hamas of a Hamas co-founder and also a former Hamas member and Hamas has said from the very beginning Beginning in 2006 made very clear in 2007 that they have no intention at all of recognizing Israel of recognizing the peace process of making peace with Israel and of of Giving up the violent fight They made it very clear that they will keep fighting no matter what and they will not agree to disavow terrorism since then Israel and Hamas have been constantly fighting. They have been fighting this entire time Israel had to blockade in place. It would be lifted if Gaza became prosperous and showed signs for of peace Of course Gaza didn't do this. Hamas did the opposite. So Israel tightens the blockade The blockade was still over time Slowly and slowly eased as time passed Hamas never responded nicely to this but responded with violence every single time eventually this led to a full blockade of Hamas by Israel, which was also supported by Egypt by the way However, now it seems that those people who are against Israel and will criticize Israel of being the oppressor Claim that the Palestinians or the Gazans are fighting back because of the blockade not realizing that the blockade is only in place because The gods the Gazan authority Hamas will not agree to make peace. This is why Israel is fighting this is why Israel is defending itself against this enemy if the enemy stopped if Hamas stopped and said we will work toward peace and we will Also agree to recognize Israel things would go differently. There would be no excuses left However, Hamas is fighting and vows to fight forever. In fact on October 24 Just a few weeks after October 7 The designated Hamas speaker Ghazi Hamad made a statement that he Made in an interview on Lebanese TV Where he explicitly said that October 7 is not the first nor the last There will be October 7 8 9 10 October million that we will do this over and over and over and over again We will continue this fight and we have the means to continue for years until Israel is completely destroyed Because this state has no right to exist. That is the stance of Hamas. What exactly do you expect Israel to do? as in in response to that In 2018 Fatih Hamad said that A speaker of Hamas also in charge of al-Aqsa TV, which is the Gazan or Hamas state TV said that their aim is to eventually cleanse Palestine of the filth of the Jews Upon which they want to then establish a caliphate. This is something He said in 2018 and he said we will do this in four years. Obviously that didn't work out well for them, but These are some of the speakers. Let's not even get to the charger. I'm sure we can go into that very much There is so much to say such as that Hamas is hiding under the civilian population Hamas is using actual humans as human shields and so on But I will just leave it at that and say So far is Israel's war is entirely justified. I see no reason why it shouldn't be Thanks Thank you very much for that opening apostate prophet and want to let you know folks If it's your first time here at modern-day debate, I'm your host james We are a neutral platform hosting debates. Oh, not yet history speaks We're a neutral platform Let me just Sharing debates on all sorts of topics We hope you feel welcome whether you be pro palestine pro israel We're glad that you're here hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up And with that we're going to kick it over to history speaks for his opening statement as well Thanks for being with us history speaks the floor is all yours All right. Thank you for doing this uh ridvan and uh modern-day debates. We'll get right to it Hey, can you guys see the power point? Yes Okay All right, let's see how do I click Okay, I'm just going to pause share for a second and then Launch this thing. All right Now I will share again Okay, we can we can see now. All right. All right, whatever. I can't whatever. It's not working this the presentation, but that's okay We'll just show it here okay, so this war is Atrocity it's completely unjustified and there are two more there are two core reasons for it israel is first Indiscriminately killing civilians raising gods and committing war crimes one atrocity can't justify another This is barbaric barbaric morality in a betrayal of western values and the rule of law The second reason it's unjustified is the goal is going to fail israel is not going to destroy hamas If uh, we have time later, and I think we will I'll also get into a Side issue that's still relevant what would be an alternative solution to the Terrorism issue israel faces and that namely would be addressing the palestinian concern Of 75 years of an indigenous people having had having been colonized having had their land stolen having been ethnically cleansed Having been occupied continuously since then if you count the arab israelis were occupied for a period torture chambers Periodic massacres and so on Okay All right, so in the first place it's important to emphasize the level of destruction in this massacre Currently occurring in israel in agaza So in early january the world bank this is two months ago three months into the war In early january 99 601 out of 218 000 roughly Residential structures in gaza were totally annihilated were uninhabitable So 45 after three months of the so-called war of all houses were annihilated in gaza according to the world bank That shows that we're not having any kind of Discrimination any attempt to limit damage were raising the strip An op article from january 11 2014 noted Interviewing many military experts historians. This is one of the deadliest most destructive campaigns in recent history The level of destruction is more extensive if you control for time then al-asad's raising of aleppo ukraine and maria poll And uh, moreover many of the allied bombing campaigns in the second world war in fact I cannot find any case of any war if you look at the civilian casualties for example In the 2020s the 2010s the 2000s and 1990s other than recognized genocides like rwanda the second congolese were milosevic Where people are killing civilians this fast, right at least 20,000 deaths probably far more Um, you know at 4,000 a month. That's not common at all It's in fact extremely bloody in the contemporary era and rid van is of course defending it. Um Other issue is that nearly half of the bombs being dropped on gaza are imprecise dumb bombs This is not precedent for western militaries in recent times isn't even what the saltis did in yemen for example Um, these bombs have much less has a much greater range of of damage And it's much more difficult one needs to engage in special technical measures Uh, there's no evidence is real engaging in the limit the scope of civilian casualties If one is using dumb bombs at this extraordinary rate As I say in terms of civilians killed the figure Our government the u.s. Government believes the hamas ministry of health figures are accurate. Um, the uh If you look at the women and children killed, uh, you know And you assume that very few of the women of the women and children are really none basically or very few of the teenagers Are fighting in hamas Then you're already going to get 21,000 22,000. That's approximately it's extraordinary for five months of War like in faster pace than al-asad in syria. So that's the type of people type of efforts that israel's defenders are defending Now let's talk about the intention of the war So is it really the case israel's reluctantly killing civilians that are just Being used as human shields and it's so terrible and they hate it, but they can't but no I mean they've expressed murderous intention and contempt and dehumanization for the guzzin population. So this guy um rosen who's the head of um Allian he's uh drus. I guess he's the head of uh He the coordinator for the government of occupied territory. So he has a big role of palestinians He said hamas became ISIS and the citizens of gaza are celebrating human beasts. We talked about the citizens are dealt with accordingly Israel's imposed a total blockade on gaza. No electricity. No water. Just damage Um, giori island one of the most prominent military elites in israel Former idf operations chief said israel has no choice But to render gaza into a place that's temporarily or permanently unfit for living every building will be considered a military target No matter what This is a foreign minister of israel. Mr. Kats who said all the civilian population gaza is ordered to leave immediately They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world Again, ridvan. You should be very proud that this is People you're lying up with And then this gentleman, uh the tury the deputy speaker of the kinesis. We are too humane burn gaza Now and he also said the people of gaza cannot be described as animals because animals are are too good And that's even leaving aside this guy the one of the cabinet ministers that talked about nuking gaza Okay, so let's talk about now specific war crimes. We talked about how we have a historic level of killing of civilians And we have a historic level of raising infrastructure. So let's talk about specific war crimes The three specific ones all alleged are occurring in gaza systematically are violations of the principle of discrimination I'm not going to bore you guys with the legal semantics. We can go go here if you want And the violation of proportionality and also collective punishment of the civilian population. So First with discrimination it appears if from testimony of soldiers that That war zones have been turned into what are called free fire zones This is one of the most hideous war crimes america committed in the vietnam war Where you evacuate an area you say this is going to be a war zone and then you just shoot people Or don't take any precautions if they fail to evacuate. So This is from an article in the guardian 8th February 2024 Where some of the soldiers they interviewed said they considered any civilian who remain in the combat zone after being warned to leave as complicit and Just to quote them one of them. What am I going to think they're not supporters of hamas? Were they doing there then we should all ship them to yemen if the houthis like them so much So you're not only seeing dehumanization but a policy that they're complicit. They can be shot at If they're still in the in the war zone after being evacuated in terms of discrimination, you've also have very serious allegations of Deliberately killing civilians at some level. I'm not saying they're trying to kill every civilian they encountered But there are cases where it appears IDF is deliberately killing civilians One of these cases is is mr. Abdullah. I can't remember his first name But he was a lebanese journalist for roiders He and other journalists were shot at investigation by reporters without borders Found that it is very unlikely that they could have been mistaken for combatants that they were just shot at Even though they were clearly journalists and the israelis were in a position to know I believe there's another investigation right now that's been released and came to the Similar conclusion though. I don't want to say who it was because it was some kind of mainstream organization Just like yesterday and I forgot to read about Okay Yeah, um, this is another one. This is just quoting the reporters supporters thing um And in other you also have these white flag shootings which illustrate this kind of Free fire zone policy indiscriminate Killing of civilians You have all these strange episodes of white flags during cnn was just in gaza to gaza to interview Some palestinians and oh, what do you know a bunch of men are shot at who are waving white flags Also an older lady was shot at and of course, we know about the three israeli hostages who were shot and killed Well waving white flags shirtless and um unarmed So that tells you something about israel's rules of engagement the most moral army in the world And this is seen in god I mean, what are the what are the chances you know just goes into interview people briefly in the haza And they they just massacre these people. So that's that's lovely israel proportionality Um is another war crime. So proportionality just to without getting into the thematic so much It's not like proportionality is basically You have to ensure that when you're going after Achieving military aims you're not killing civilians out of proportion to the military aims. So you can't kill one guy One enemy combatant if you know, you're going to kill a thousand civilians doesn't mean you can't kill civilians That's war but proportionality is is relevant um So in terms of proportionality again, the testimony from israeli soldiers is extremely damning The emphasis is on quantity not on quality a former intelligence officer told 972 Magazine and point of fact We're seeing that proportionality Estimates aren't even being made This is all being outsourced to ai by israel according to the same source 972 And all of that because all the hamas members are marked for death They are willing to kill all of them Even if that and that that even if it's a trivial person doesn't didn't participate in october 7th Doesn't have any relevance really isn't even actively in arms. They want to kill all of them So they're willing to bomb the houses of the hamas people are in or And this is all cleared by israel according to the 972 investigation if you can kill hamas It doesn't matter how low the level is and even if it'll tail collateral damage You can bomb the home and kill the family and the kids Yeah, as as this quote shows So here's the picture of the premature baby's ill she for hospital and this is another example of proportionality issue um I accept israel could have lawfully entered the hospital because hamas was at some extremely limited level the commands and everything was otherwise Using it for military purposes, but you can't bomb the hospital That's obviously a violation of proportionality just to protect your soldiers your brave idea of soldiers And reduce the risk slightly you cannot bomb a hospital and destroy the solar panels They bombed it they killed premature babies They killed patients That is obviously a war crime and a violation of the principal proportionality particularly because The military advantage of doing that was was very trivial given the very small presence of hamas in that place Okay, also third war crime collective punishment So israel has a specific doctrine of collective punishment in its military So this is not just me inferring something from what israel is doing in the current war It's called a dahiya doctrine and uh, just a quote Again, diori island who is was formerly the head of the national security council israel So one of the top military elites there He talked about the use of this in the context of the 2006 war with hasbullah And he said it's about the elimination of the lebanese military of the destruction of the national infrastructure And tent suffering among the population. So the goal is according to this former head of israeli National security council is to inflict suffering on the civilian population and that is a doctrine that is in place And has been decided upon this is a plan have been approved. So it's not just lebanon war, but is now Okay, so That's and that that relates to all the destruction of infrastructure We're seeing they're raising the strip as part of this notion of you punish the civilian population And we also saw this in cast blood and protective edges We can talk about the previous two major massacres in gaza Also starvation is being used as a weapon of war in gaza, which is collective punishment Um You have to remember the israelis initially didn't want to let any food into gaza They said no food no fuel. Everything is closed. We're fighting human animals with the defense secretary said now rid bumbles Hey, they are letting them in well two points in that regard first They're doing the best they can to find all kinds of bullshit excuses to not let it in and second They didn't want to let it in we pressured them. We made them. We conditioned their weapons on it gallant said the reason he let it in as I show here guardian article Is uh, the americans in system. We're not in a place to refuse them. We rely on them planes for military equipment What are we supposed to do tell them no? um Yeah, so they're trying to starve this population into all the throne hamas or return the hostages or whatever um human rights watchers documented the statements of intent even president biden alluded to it in the state of the union how you can't use hunger as um As a negotiating chip right as a bargaining chip biden wouldn't have brought that up if there was evidence or fear that isreal Was doing it and then finally you have reports of small-scale massacres or the large massacre We of course had the flower massacre which we all Heard about where the eyewitnesses claim is real shot upon these starving people and cause a stampede isreal has another story um There's also Another allegation of a massacre that al jazeera reported on based on testimonial evidence where men from a family were separated from women The not an extended family 19 men were all killed And the women were apparently strip searched and and biden um So isreal of course israel's title defend himself from these allegations I thought war is real, but nevertheless we have an overall picture Of systematic war crimes collective punishment, vile is the principal proportionality Indiscriminate bombing and attempting to punish the civilian population and it's it's outrageous anyone with the liberal principles would Would be defending this this uh, this criminal state Okay, the second and much much creeper. Don't worry. This will be like 30 seconds or 45 seconds because we don't have time obviously Uh reason to oppose this massacre is that israel's goals are unachievable israel's not going to destroy hamas US intelligence says they're not going to israeli intelligence says they're not going to is by setting this maxless Goal up israel's actually guaranteed a propaganda victory for hamas because they're going to survive Had israel done something like say we're going to go in and conquer part of northern gaza and carve out a buffer zone in the strip To prevent they could have prevented any october 7th from either happening And uh, they wouldn't have killed nearly this many civilians and raised so much infrastructure But instead they decided to kill tens of thousands of people um Mame an orphan far more, you know children are You know the number of children that have been killed I think is higher than all children have died in wars combined in the last three previous years something like that But no instead they've said they've said unattainable goals which are going to fail to achieve and The fools on social media are cheering on these unattainable goals, but u.s intelligence um israeli intelligence also effectively haven't uncovered enough infrastructure and um tunnels namely or killed enough people to achieve a liquidation which is very difficult they might It's technical term render hamas combat ineffective But they're not going to destroy them because they haven't uncovered enough infrastructure or killed enough fighters In fact, they're they're withdrawing them. Okay all right mad um, just a very quick thing. I was on mute the entire time. Sorry about that. Okay Really quick folks are guests are linked to the description. So check out ap and history speaks links Watch you to check out. There's even if you don't agree There's value in checking out the links of people you disagree with so you can understand them more So ap and history speaks are linked in the description below that includes at the podcast if you're listening to the other podcast later on with that Jumping into the open dialogue gentlemen the floor is all yours Yeah, uh, so one thing to quickly point out here is that the debate topic is is um, whether israel's war on gas Or against hamas is justified or not. However Matt didn't spend a minute or so Uh, discussing whether it is justified or not, but rather spent the entire time Discussing whether or whether israel's methods during this war are justified or not I guess, uh, there seems to be a misunderstanding on his part Or maybe he should have made it clear that this is actually what he's uh intending to debate I don't understand man. What what is this about? Yeah, if you look at like classical philosophy of just war theory, there's uh two elements. It's a just cause and there's a just, um Uh practice of the war the war exists as it exists israel has adopted the this policy of killing of destroying hamas of liquidating Basically raising the strip We can defend some fantasy scenario where they did something different But we have to defend or reject what they're doing now That's my view and that's consistent Even if we want to get pedantic with like traditional just war theory, you have to look at the conduct as well I don't think even the um, I probably propose what would have been a sane policy But I don't think any of this is productive or going to solve the problems the problems Is that the Palestinians hate the hate the israelis and support terrorism against them? And that's because they stole their land and ethnically cleanse them so just to clarify When it when it comes to just the the declaration of war in 2023 Just a few months ago after october 7 israel officially declared war on hamas Uh, do do you have any objection to that or do you think uh israel's Decision to go to war is justified The problem I have is that it's a bit of a complicated situation because hamas committed a terrible atrocity, which I don't One party commits an atrocity doesn't make israel's overall situation of Turning gaza into an internment camp of illegal occupation of its own systematic war crimes with the settlement expansion colonization No, I don't I don't think that's uh, I think some kind of police action Would have been justified, but I don't believe war would have been justified if you do believe war would have been justified the model I sketched of conquering buffer zones and Trying to engaging in targeted assassinations of hamas leaders would be a sane one We have to talk about the war in the real world not the war. We wish israel was waging so so you think israel shouldn't have declared war on Oh, if they're going to if they were in the real world, they were going in the real world They were going to okay, but uh, what do you think israel should have done instead of declaring war? okay, I think that israel Needs to recognize that the problem it has with these people is that it stole their land It okay, that's not my question. I answer you think i'm gonna answer the full question I think that israel needs to make needs to address the root causes Of palestinian support for terrorism against them, which is continual colonization land theft on sham pretext Torture chambers pretty much bullshit. Okay. It's it's it's bullshit that they stole the land. Is that your claim? You're not answering the question. I wouldn't I wouldn't have the question I wouldn't have the word war, but Okay, that's not my question. What should have they should have lifted the blockade and and after the if the blockade were lifted I'm not saying they should have I am not saying they should let the people come in They should have lifted the blockade. They should have fortified their border The fact that october 7th happened was a massive fluke was a massive fluke It The idea that this happened. There were far more soldier station the west bank than in gaza Um, they know they should have fortified their border. There's the chance of this reoccurring was nearly zero Like these people have no air force. All right. So your suggestion your suggestion is And and hamas rises up and says and says uh, this is that this is the final uprising We will finish israel forever and and they made it clear that they want to eradicate if they lift the blockade Your suggestion and your suggestion in response to that is israel should lift the blockade Israel Israel should lift the blockade and its policies of colonization and if hamas at that point And and and moved toward a two-state settlement And if which nedinia who was sitting been blocking for 20 years if hamas at that point Wanted to it was still engaging in violence against israel when by the way in their 2018 2017 one of those two years are updated Manifesto they said hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign independent palestinian state with druselman's capital on on the 67 borders With return of the refugees to be a formula of of national consensus. So Read read the full. Yeah, they may they may they don't accept They don't accept anything other than Theoretically as a matter of principle, they don't accept israel But they do accept as a matter of real politic the two-state solution, right? They don't in principle. They'd love to have a palisthenum from the river to the sea. That's what they believe, right? But Can you read the full can you read the full um, the the the entire This is in the h-arter. Yeah, they say hamas believes that no part of which article is that They say hamas believes no part of the land palestinian shall be compromised or conceded blah blah blah However, without compromising its rejection of the zionist entity and without relinquishing palestinian, right? No, they're basically saying we want no they want of course they want the whole territory Like obviously they do Yes, yes, exactly. So so why in the world would israel accept hamas is supposedly, you know Public shenanigans and alterations of its of its goals when the article clearly says, yeah, okay We would be okay for a temporary tuesday solution Although we want to eventually destroy israel altogether and politics involves engaging in the real world And hamas understands this to the extent that they Recognize that a two-state solution is the international model Is a national model And and and and yet in the very same article they say they still hold on and still maintain that they want People want many things nadin yahoo. I'm sure would love to annex The west bank. He can't do that right now because he has certain constraints We israel wanted to starve to death all of these people and guys. They didn't want to let in any humanitarian aid I showed that in my presentation They couldn't do that because the u.s. So we won't give you weapons if you don't so people have to act within the Real world hamas has extreme constraints because they're pathetically weak The fact that israel let this happen is an absurdity. So no, it's it's overreacting like nine a lot So I told you that if you want to go to war, there is a way to do that that is not Criminal or ridiculously stupid which is to conquer buffer zones engage in targeted assassinations if There is no evidence that there is a criminal thing going on at the moment Which is why the icj even doing themselves so said they said there is plausibility, but there is no reason to That's for genocide. That's for literal genocide. They say it's possible genocides occur Okay, there are many you're totally speculating as to why they didn't call for a ceasefire There are many reasons why they couldn't why they might not have done that I think the most likely situation is that they're up against the most powerful nation in the world The united states just against them and they know israel's likely to disobey and it will just make it'll just ruin their authority in western nations because the united states will They also knew that russia's rushes trivial compared to the united states and they still did it Of course, it's these these institutions act within the real world. They didn't throw it out Yeah, they didn't throw it out. Uh, they they still they still said that there is possibility of genocide and and yet and yet plausibility not possibility and yet they didn't uh Injunctive relief if you the only claim that has been found the merits is that this is a plausibly genocidal war The injunctive relief is your is purely your speculation as to why they didn't do it There's no evidence Zero you can't provide a shred of evidence other than your speculation clairvoyance that they didn't call for a ceasefire because they don't They think it's plausibly genocidal, but probably not in any case well, I I I uh, it is it is very clear that they didn't call for a ceasefire despite that being the explicit, uh demand from south africa with the claim that there is obviously obviously A genocide obviously massive war crimes Which is why the icj based on this and this and this ruling should call for a ceasefire and the icj said no We're not doing that. There's the israel would not have complied. That's a fact The united states would have backed israel up There's many Speculating as well while so you're saying i'm speculating as to why your whole argument is speculation The only thing we have from the icj is that Yeah, okay is your wouldn't have complied anyway. They wouldn't have stopped the war So that's a good speculation, but it's still they made that just just just Okay, mine is also obvious. I don't think the viewers So what specific war crime that I listed I talked about proportionality. I talked so you The guardian published test interviewed many soldiers who said that they are treating Evacuated areas as essentially free fire zones that they view the civilians who say they're as complicit And shoot first ask questions later. Is that made up? Is that doesn't bother you think that's ethical Uh, you brought you brought up many many of the things that that's the that certain people said that, uh I brought up soldiers on the ground was was what a was a kinesis member. Uh, who was that you brought up? But wait about the The guy is is not even in charge of of the war. He doesn't decide Yeah, but if you're having government you bring him up as an as an example of somebody I'd say as as authority he talked about how they're not going to get any water until they leave the world So you got a little issue there. Okay. Yeah, so let's let's establish. Let's establish this then So your claim is that israel is indiscriminately killing palestinians Yeah, but in terms of how the other hand to find the law of war. Yeah yet on the other hand your You are from the beginning here are also presenting to us the evidence and I can uh It goes much further than that that israel has been calling on gossons to evacuate and has been providing Safe corridors has been saying long before they started the systematic invasion and attack that they should evacuate south because it's a safer zone Which is why uh north gaza was considered and still is considered a war zone. Whereas, uh, The the the southern parts or the safe corridor are considered relatively safe and hamas in response to that Told its population. No stay where you are. Don't go anywhere. Is that is that a fact? Yes, or no I mean, there was like three three questions contained in there regardless of whether israel is Committing genocide which has been said to be plausible or maybe it's not committing genocide. Maybe it's merely Engaging in this free fire zone policy where it wants them to evacuate But if they haven't evacuated, they'll just kill them anyway if they haven't we've given them a chance or enemies No, I just I mean those are both war crimes Israel is a horrible atrocity the United States didn't have a policy in vietnam of Killing civilians. Nevertheless, the free fire zones policy is one of the biggest disgraces that our military acknowledges Uh occurred where they they basically said no, and israel is apparently engaging their policy like that according to testimony 11 And you're fine with that because oh they gave them a chance to evacuate So if you're an old grandmother Or you you couldn't evacuate for whatever reason or you didn't want to You just can be killed in because you're presumed to be an enemy. That's that's apparently what you're dependent Okay, so so is so israel did tell the population in advance long before they won't long before the invasion to evacuate itself, right? Yeah, yes, but you think a free you think it's okay. I'm gonna ask you a question now You think it's okay. So let's say they stay evacuate and they they're doing it in good faith. Let's assume that You think it's okay then to just shoot at civilians who've stayed there No, I don't I don't think it's okay. And I also don't think that this is You think the testimony 11 is fake that the guardian and that that is that this is what the idea is doing what the idea is is doing is is to uh to Treat the zone that they called for an evacuation from as a war zone Which is why it is significantly more likely that a civilian remaining there would be Sean They're saying they are guilty We see that multiple people told we see them as guilty Complicitus, they're they're they're treating these people as if they're Hamas and you also what do you make of the white flag? Why are there all these white flags? Why they shoot three other hostages who are waving white flags? Why are they shooting an old lady that to me seems consistent with Either the plausible genocide theory or if you don't believe that and that has to be adjudicated. I'll grant you I'm not saying that is true Let me finish claims made by made by made by people No, no, no, this is on video official IDF IDF policy and military operations Where um, it where it where there is no policy and no evidence that the IDF is directly Targeting people simply for staying there. What is happening is that uh, I mean, why do you think evacuation? Why do you think an evacuation order is issued? What do you think the point of it is the the entire point of it? It's like they can massacre the people who have the entire point of this No, I have never said that the entire point of an evacuation order is if you are if you stay there This is a direct war zone. You will possibly be harmed. So get out of there go south Which is which means if you are staying in that zone You might not be targeted, but you will very likely be harmed or very likely die It's it's very obvious. That's why it's an evacuation. It sounds like you're just wanting to argue that War crime rather than no, I'm not I'm not I'm not doing that at all. You're just putting words in my mouth So it's it's very funny that you say that israel is indiscriminately killing civilians On the other hand, you are also arguing that they are creating evacuations You're saying they target civilians. On the other hand, you say they they drop dumb bombs So it's it's a it's a very very interesting terms have specific Indice you can be engaged you can be violating when you're talking about indiscriminate killing of civilians You don't mean that they're literally trying to kill every civilian in gaza As if it's a nazi holocaust It this is a specific war crime That is satisfied by the policy of free fighters zones, for example all right, so um Along with that is satisfied by the raising of the strip the raising of the strip and three months into this so-called war They destroyed 40 percent 45 percent of the world bank were Okay, interesting interesting now. Let me ask you a question. Are you aware that's fine for you? That's fine from we talked about the polls of the palace. Are you aware that according to to poll to polls? The majority of gaza's support october 7 and support the war efforts. So Okay, so i've seen the polling about I promise we'll talk about this these polling. Yeah, you're correct for the majority support october 7 um Can we can we just put a button on this for a second? And then we'll I promise we'll come back to because it's very important topic Uh, because it's it's it's relates the cause of the of the problem Yeah, that's true. Um, but let's step back for a second. So you don't have any problem But just just just just I promise Okay, before we move before we move on you acknowledge that so most gaza's do support october 7 according to the best data We have seems to indicate. I think the figure was 57 and then much higher for the western. Thank you Okay, so let's let's let's move to so 45 of houses and by the way this poll was done This poll is done well into the war though. So let's let's be clear about that. So these people were under We're being massacred uh when they when they said this but yes that that figure was was what's been reported By a serious, I don't remember the name of the bill. I've seen the data you're referring to. Anyway, um, the You're not disturbed by the fact that three months into this war 45 percent of the buildings in gaza according to the world bank Had been destroyed that that sounds discriminant to you I'm sorry of the houses I would say it sounds disturbing and it sounds pretty sad and pretty awful but um You you you you you cited the whole principle of of proportionality So it would be now up to israel to um if asked about this Demonstrate improve that they violated the principle of proportionality when they did this Uh, it is a very very Normal consequence of a war. There was there was a very large article. It is very very very interesting. It's not normal. It's the ap There's a very interesting article about this, uh published on the modern war institute was point John spencer that guy is that the guy by john spencer, which Which is about, uh, which uh, yeah, I know. Yeah, great genetic fallacy It's a total joke. Yeah, which is about which is about how it is necessary during war as seen over and over and over again To cause destruction in order to save the very place that you are fighting In the case of in the case of of gaza. It is specifically necessary specifically necessary We have so many testimonies from people themselves in there from the hostages and from others That hamas uses regular civilian buildings and operates from within them Where they keep hostages where they keep weapons where they keep all all kinds of different things We have reports of the un condemning hamas over and over again For building tunnels under schools and residential buildings. These are these are all All all facts. These are all documented and I have the evidence for I don't we don't have to debate Whether they embed themselves in civilian infrastructure because I agree they do that the term human shield is I think Misleading I'm not saying no, no, let me make this point. I didn't say The okay the term human shield, I think Misleads more than it adds. I think it's much better to say they embed themselves in civilian infrastructure like schools and hospitals That conveys the risk they're posing and the war crime They're committing much better than the term human shield because people think of them commandeering civilians to Into war zones coercing them into stay and this has not happened at any kind of Systematic level that would contribute to the casualties They're what they do is they embed themselves as a civilian infrastructure, but nevertheless The the episodes I cited the white flag shootings, for example You know nothing no justification Nothing to do with hamas presence there or the flower massacre as well. No hamas Issue there. Um, you know, the other the other point is The flow You can't just bring up you can't just bring up something like the flower massacre and then Okay, go ahead. You know quickly sleeping on the rug It is it is something that is a contested issue And well, we have plenty of evidence that that the IDF did not Cause a massacre that they did not kill a bunch of people shooting it What is the evidence the idea statement? They won't release the video the full footage We have we have it doesn't show the footage they were running and then Was boom rang to them and they refused to the testimonial evidence supports the idea of a massacre and and the IDF has not explained Which which testimony evidence of Palestinian witnesses? um Okay, we have also according to the bbc Palestinian witnesses will say that the majority of the killings were done by by trucks running them over well the Whether the majority of killings were done by the trucks is not what i'm talking about what i'm talking about Is what precipitated the stampede and what precipitated the stampede according to the testimonial evidence is is real Gunfire now this needs to be investigated. Okay, however This is of a piece with all of these other episodes of shooting people waving white flags of bombing a hospital just of of treating Military zones of treating civilians in military areas as if they're fair game or complicitous You know, it's there's been so many episodes. There was the other day Video of a man being shot who was unarmed an elderly man And the guy was talking about and joking with his buddy So there's obviously major hooliganism and criminality going on here Even if I agree the individual cases need to be Investigated but for this case the flower massacre. It seems much more likely to me than not Well, that this is as the Palestinians are I won't leave it up Okay, so I gotta go back to john spencer The fact that you have to cite someone like that really shows how pathetic your case is I mean the guy's a charlatan He says the the Ukraine so I'm a totally against pudin's invasion of the ukrainian. I think it was absolutely reprehensible Is it reasonable to assess as a matter of military? What's going on there militarily that pudin is engaged in nazi-style annihilation of the ukrainian population? That's what he said. I'm not sure why we're it shows He's a polemicist who's does not who is not a serious analyst He just say there's a nazi-style massacre extermination Of the ukrainian people civilian population is preposterous. There's an unjust war going on in ukraine That's very very funny. Uh, it's and I'm sure it's very interesting. I'm sure we can go into that But I I'm personally I'm personally not interested in your sources. What you're doing is basically you're appealing to to to felices here, which is uh The autobahnem and also the the genetic fallacy Which is when I when I bring up a a certain article, which I say is interesting In terms of explaining this specific principle you are then attacking Yeah, I'm attacking. I'm making an how many argument about that. He's not as serious analysis I'm citing the article if you have an issue with the article you can do Maybe go into the article afterwards if you want to read it However, uh, this has the the guy's background or other things that he says Certainly, but I think that the reasonable person who's hearing and knows and I'm sure would the reasonable person be against russia's invasion And here's it characterized as a nazi-style extermination of the ukrainian people would find john spencer less than serious And and incidentally there was an article in just security the other day A completely debunking his his claims about israel as the gold standard Okay, that's that's that's still very very interesting. Uh, however, I don't care. It's not relevant. So, um Here is the here is the thing you said earlier that israel shouldn't have been uh going to war israel should have done different measures instead I just want to ask you a brief question If israel followed your Uh Your plan of acting like the I don't care bears and lifting the blockade and on Listening to palestinian efforts and so on and hamas still attacked israel Would it then be justified for israel to wage war? Yeah, if israel if hamas attacked israel after the blockade was lifted occupation Ended colonization of the west bank ended. Yeah, israel would have the right to as a as a recognized nation Uh, that would no longer be engaged in war crimes israel would have the right to wage war at that point. Yeah Okay, so then then what exactly is it that you think israel is doing wrong? Let me tell you that can I tell you what i think israel is real should do so attacking israel The ultimate problem here the ultimate problem and this relates to solutions the ultimate problem here Is what you mentioned That now this may be I think this is inflated by the fact that they're being massacred right now And it's also being inflated by maybe conspiracy theories, but nevertheless as you said 57 percent of Ghazan support the october 7th, right? um And actually there's a you're going to say muslim muslim, but 60 percent of lebanese christians support october 7th according to the poling So it's this is not in lebanese drus of vast majority do too. So this is not just it's not this is ultimately about the fact that Based on a claim a kind of romantic pseudo religious claim That people originally they were european now there is a ton of obviously middle eastern jews there But the original zionists were european People who because of ancient ancestry in the in israel Thought they were morally entitled to go there and demand partition of the land No, no, no i'm giving you an explanation as to why as to the causes of the palestinian hatred That's what i'm trying to explain because the palestinian hatred Okay, is the foreign policy issue the foreign policy issue is palestinian hatred of israelis and support for terrorism And the reason for no Can you explain to me what exactly makes hamas attack israel relentlessly? I have to give you I have to be stopping my 92nd spiel and then you're going you can respond. I'll give you three minutes so No, the cause of this red bond is that they see israel rightly as foreigners who came stole their land ethnically cleansed them have occupied them ever since and have continued to steal their land and continue to colonize the west bank for example How long has they been occupying in terms of in terms of the gaza occupation This is another thing I want to mention. So first of all whether or not you call it occupation isn't relevant They control the airspace. They control the waterways It does this paradise that well, they bucky the they bucky by the west banks of 67 in terms of now exactly and so After the so-called war of independence israel occupied its own arab population the israeli arabs There was martial law. Okay for until 1966 And until 1967 really because they had the police enforcing it and they stole their land So you guys excuse. Oh, it's war. They stole the land of the israeli arabs Who didn't leave under the absentee property law? They plundered them if you were in terms first of all, they had no freedom of movement. This is until 67 um And they had no freedom of movement and they just stole their land because it's under this absentee property law They passed 1950 they could take the land of any palestinian who was no longer there So they include the ethnically cleansed people. It also included israeli arabs. They just stole the land Look, the united states paid reparations to the native americans for stealing their land I don't remember they no they did They they paid reparations. You can make some argument that because of you guys you're seriously absolutely, uh, I absolutely 100% of palestinians are indigenous to the land. Wow. Okay. So let's let's debate this you you think it's absurd Why aren't they indigenous to the land? Do you do you think do you think the palestinians themselves have claimed for a long time now? However, that they are Not that they are different that they are indigenous people to the land who are not yes I'm going to read you a quotation from benny morris's From i can read your quotation from hamas charger, which says that they are that they are of course Ridvan, I don't think you know what arabs are arabs can encompass I know exactly. I know exactly what our sudanese are sudanese arabs What our sudanese people they are arabs depend the vast majority are they're not ethnic arabs, but they are Okay, there you go. There you go. There you go. What? Okay, this is this is what I mean This is what I mean arab arab is basically a a cultural group that also at some point turns into an ethnicity Which is why because it develops in a certain environment with people who share a a culture of Language of interbreeding and so on when it comes to palestinians It is very very much established that a significant proportion of palestinians are people who were Who became arabized after the arab invasion? Otherly not other nonsense They're very much genetically similar very much genetically similar To to arabs and also to certain other populations in the in the light they are really talking ridvan ridvan They are genetically Mostly levantine. They have some we're talking about genetics. They have some admixture from the gulf. Yeah They're mostly from the land the ashkazi Jews who came are mostly not from the land. This is not according to me This is according to god with the house the guy's named razib khan major That's a that's a big. No. It's all fact. It's no. It's no. It's completely true Yeah, a lot of the palestinians are palestinians are extremely. I think they diverse ridvan the vast majority They're similar to iraqi No, the vast majority of palestinians are overwhelming majority well over 90 percent This is based on thousands of samples I've looked into this claim because of all the lies your side tells about them not being indigenous So you can ethnically cleanse them over 90 percent of them. Yeah, they're black palestinians. Nobody nobody ever said such a yes Yes, it is true. That's a strawman Overwhelming majority are indigenous They're not gulf Arabs direct us gentlemen Just back to the main topic. I'm going to just read one quick quote from um, not about genetics, but just about Palestinian identity. This is drabotinsky. This is a righteous victims benny moors talking about the palestinians in 1923 Palestine will remain for the palestinians not a borderland But their birthplace the center and basis of their own national existence They mean the palestinians look upon palestinium with the same instinctive love and true further any Aztec looked upon mexico so obviously Jabotinsky understood they were indigenous to the land And the the cause of the okay, let's go back to the the debate though the cause of this Just just one thing to point out here. Uh, when you when you say indigenous to the land We're talking about indigenous to the to the levant indigenous to the levant Includes many many different groups that are currently in the levant Our meetings that are in the land often make the same bank the very same claim because they can be they can very much Established that they have a lot in common with people who are also in the levant However, they can trace their ancestry to people who were much further north Lebanese people are quite similar in genetics to palestinian people other people in iraq are quite similar to them because What this means is when they when they when you say they are they are they have genetics that are in the levant What that means is not that they that they are a certain people who were untouched and who were in that region forever It means that they share commonalities with the genetics of other people throughout the entirety of the levant I think I think we've had a back and forth according to the palestinians themselves I'm just gonna make trace their trace their rules to the arab world. This is obvious. This is obvious Oh Identify palestinians with the land That's ridiculous. So so so when when they say I am from egypt or that's like a meme you have Yeah, there may be some How much my ancestry is from is from egypt does that mean that they're that there are palestinians who not identify as an issue Let's just just to hear ap as well That's the third most popular family name in In the palestinian territory because Because they traced their ancestry to egyptians. It's not a desertion. I can prove it. I can prove it. That's not an assertion First of all, ashkenazi jews have european names big big big shock to you So that the surname argument is ridiculous if you're trying to I am not the one who is claiming that You are saying they're not indigenous You are saying they're not you are claiming they're not indigenous to the land So the surname argument is is laughably stupid. There's a palestinian on twitter called l curd He understands that means he has some distant paternal ancestor who's Kurdish It doesn't mean of mostly Kurdish descent ridvan i'm half egyptian and I have a an english name It doesn't change the fact that i'm half egyptian like all your surname says is you have a paternal ancestor that Matt um, what's happening is that you're you're misunderstanding something here I am not the one arguing that uh, you've said they're not interested Has right to the land because they are because they have this, uh, Undisturbed unpolluted indigenous genetics that are tied to the land. This is a claim that you are basically making I'm not making such a claim I am acknowledging that the people in that region are very very much ethnically diverse people who came from the outside mixed with the local population and so on palestinians who Went away from there a long time ago and mixed with other populations are ethnically diverse and might still have traces That lead back to ancient populations of the land Jews that were at some point there and moved out and over centuries Interbred with other populations might have ancestry to that land that doesn't mean anything It certainly does not mean that the palestinians are a population that has always been there undisturbed And the average person that is uh today identifying as a palestinian Is somebody who is I don't know very much identical to the people who lived there 2000 years ago These are it is a regular thing in the world that populations Move around and mix with other populations So Arabs move around and mix with populations that are in this land Then they will of course have traces to ancient populations living there That doesn't mean that they are indigenous and have an exclusive right to this land. Let me respond So two points first exclusive right. I'll address the second What happened in history is that these people were there and we've we've gone back for a bunch of next Don't talk about that anymore. I think I'm I was much more convincing than you on that We've I've shown that they the Jabotinsky acknowledge. They had the palestinian identity in 1923 So they clearly uh your erroneous your statements about this So these people identify as palestinian. They're mostly a standard for the land Then foreigners come who say that we were here 2000 years ago European Jews at the time it was And uh, they demand a partition of their land. Nobody would accept this. Nobody would accept this Uh, it's absurd to say the palestinian should have accepted it Especially given that the first plan the appeal plan involved ethnic cleansing And ethnic cleansing was inbuilt and inevitable when zionism is anymore says so The the main the sin that started this conflict was zionism The idea that we're going to come to this land because we were here 2000 years ago based on romanticism or religion And not only go there to live which is fine. They can go there and live there if they want I would have no problem with that But they they wanted to get have a jewish state a jewish majority state which meant ethnic cleansing and land theft Which is in fact what happened. So they came there. They they demanded Let me finish like once they didn't have the land the indigenous people and they stole their land Ethically cleansing that is the problem and those are things that need to be addressed In addition to the occupation if you're gonna however, that's what the palestinians care about They care about the let's let's grant for a second that uh that they are indeed invaders who came here and stole the land And they don't have no right to it and so on What do you suggest the current israelis or israel should be doing right now? They should do what the united states did with the with the native americans So you have to be pragmatic about this right? They need to first of all pay compensation for land they stole under the 1950 absentee property law They just said oh they ethnically cleansed the people and then they they passed the law saying if you're not here You can we get a steal and they even stole land from arab israelis as i said The they apologize pay reparations And um, I think we should in the long run We can't do this in the short run But we should in the long run move toward a vision of allowing the indigenous people to come back to their land Which is what they want ridiculous. Um, so you're you're thinking you're making it look like israel can just say Oh, you know what guys we stole your land and here are all the reparations and compensations for that Okay, you know let's move on it's it's not gonna happen. I'm telling you what what this is not a demand This is not a demand even made by palestinian terrorist organizations And not not ever stated as the end goal not even by the plo The closest you can come to this was uh offers made to to the plo in the past Including giving most of the west bank To them Leaving it removing the settlements ending the occupation and recognizing independent palestinian state Why was that not enough? It was rejected by the palestinians. There was never a palestinian state After the establishment of israel offered in 2000 the so-called state offered would have involved israeli autonomy Over palestinian foreign policy a demilitarized state. That's not a sovereign state. In fact, in fact, no, let me finish Rebeen said After azzel that he's against the palestinian state So we're so by because of the extreme hasbara and the level of media propaganda We think that this 2000 deal was amazing When israel has basing rights and controls the airspace and controls the right to palestinian center trees It's not even a sovereign state Moreover, it wasn't in all the land that they're entitled to under international law So it was a terrible You can as much as you want to argue that that israel shouldn't have a right to limit The gazon airspace or or or c axis and so on To be frankly to be frank. I don't care israel doesn't care because uh on the one hand you have A a a state that is That is prospering and taking care of its own civilization so much that the majority of israeli arab say they are happy in israel On the other hand you have and you have a a government that is a terrorist organization like hamas That says we will not stop until we are completely rid of them and elements within their own speakers Say we want to cleanse the jews of palestine. I'm sorry, but if if israel as a response to that deems it necessary to say We will control the airspace and the coast and make sure that there is no monetization I say that this is completely justified. You can argue as much as you want against that to frankly. I don't care I'm talking about the state that was offered in 2000. I'm talking about the state that was offered would have had israeli control over The the palace you also just but you also just suggested that israel should lift the blockade. Yeah, they should lift the blockade What so you can argue In the vietnam war the the vietnam can be a horrible Master curse hue at hue alone. They kill more civilians and die at october 2nd Far more atrocities than than than even this terrible thing hamas did It doesn't mean the united states was in the right in vietnam I think we have a very myopic view of of this atrocity And we're not looking at what is the root of palestine hatred. In fact, it's very justified occupation land theft Uh torture chambers and and so forth for for 75 years when did israeli steal land? When did this begin? Okay, when did they when did they still begin to steal land? It began in um, it began during the war. So, um I actually have which war uh the 1948 war. So here's an example. Yeah, what happened during the 1948 What happened one year before the 1948? Okay, so you accept? Okay. Let me get this straight though. You accept that they stole land No, i'm i'm just i'm just no i'm i'm not i'm granting you uh something for the sake of the argument and asking you what happened in the year before Yeah, the Arabs the Arabs declared war because any population Any indigenous population would if you if you went to ireland before the irish had a state had a modern state in 1920 And said irish americans who had ancestry from hundreds of years ago said we're gonna partition ireland We want two states We want irish american state the irish wouldn't have accepted this no one would accept Apart the immigrants coming in based on thousands year old ancestry and myth To petition their land. Yeah, it was to make total sense that they rejected What do you think designers should have done in 1948 instead of uh instead of responding to the war and fighting should they have I don't think they should have ethnically, you know, we we don't belong here. We should just leave We should get out of here. No, I think they should think they should leave right now. What do you think? I think they should have pursued a one state solution in 19 I think they should have I think with when the 1939 white paper passed You you laugh ibn Saud Said he had no problem during the negotiations with 1939 white paper With uh with uh with uh jews uh living in a in a palestine state And if you're an immigrant you should accept this a one state solution where the arabs are in charge And ruling over all kinds of affairs and the jews are subjects of that state. That's what you are saying Yeah, if you in the 19, I'm talking about now in the nine I'm not saying In terms of right now that's a different situation Originally, you know back then back then 1940. Yeah, originally if you're coming to the land as immigrants based on a very tenuous claim That we were here thousands of years ago. Yeah, you should you you should adapt to the normative culture Which means they should have been a minority. Yeah Okay, uh, so on one hand you have a population that says hey We want to live in peace and we don't want to be threatened On the other hand you have a population that says, uh, you shouldn't even be here and its leaders say These guys are have a have a conspiracy to eradicate us and to destroy our temples and mosques and this and that We should therefore destroy them a leader who even goes and makes a deal with hitler And do you expect the the the jews to just say, oh, you know, what seems reasonable Let's just become subjects of these people who even meet up with hitler in order to destroy us I think you're you're confusing cause and effect here the By the late 1930s as many morse acknowledges and righteous victims I pardon me acknowledges in the birth of the palace and refugee problem The consensus among the zionist movement was transfer was ethnic cleansing. That was the consensus view, right? So Yeah, by the time el husaini and he he has responsibility for this, of course is partnering with the nazis, which is not in 1933 It's on 1935. It's 1939 Israel is committed the yishuv is committed to transfer ethnic cleansing as a matter of principle That's what I was the principle on the side of the zionist is not ethnic cleansing. You are misquoting here and doing You are you are misunderstanding The idea the idea was the idea was that the Arabs are posing a threat And repeatedly trying to remove us jews from our own places We have to make sure that we create that we create spaces But didn't that happen in 1936? Let me read the passage of morse is not being This is okay. Okay. Okay. What the what the jew what the zionists are therefore saying is in order to prevent this We have to make sure We have to make sure that we create an environment where we are not minority I'm going to read morse that you say destiny the wikipedia guy said he was misrepresenting morse Transfer that was an this is many morse was inevitable and built into zionism because it sought to transform a land Which was arab into a jewish state and a jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of arab populations and because this aim Automatically produced resistance among the arabs, which in turn Persuaded the yashuv's leaders that a hostile arab majority or large minority could not remain in place so the cause is Transfer leads to the backlash of the arabs because they're afraid of being displaced It's what morse says and then that in turn strengthens the consensus for transfer. That's what he argues. Okay So the the the the reason the not the reason palestinians were sympathetic Some and you mentioned elsh was saying he the king of the memes He's one that's not just not just some random guy. He was no he's not but he was appointed by the leader of the Prominent. Okay. He's appointed by the british He was he was then he was then removed by the british Exiled and he was yeah He had no official position and he was recognized by the arab league as the representative of the palestinian people and also put in charge of the arab Higher committee or all palestine government by egypt. He was recognized He was briefly a part of that thing and then he was the leader of it. What are you doing? Yeah, but not no He was the leader technically and it was more of a nominal role and then he left that position I believe so was Yeah, he was he's definitely leader he's to portray him as the only leader is is just And and and here's the thing We're not talking just about some random guy who was just appearing on the sea and and leaving He we are talking about a guy mofti I mean, I was saying at the grab of jerusalem the guy met with hitler And and clearly made a plan with hitler to after hitler is done with the with the soviets and and the and the I literally have a paper coming out about this. It's not collaborate and collaborate in destroying the jewish element under british Now, I literally have a paper calling up the quote is there's two translations of this quote and I read the i read the german Yeah, yeah, there's groba and schmidt. I've read the german documents to this groba and schmidt. There's two specific translations One of them talks about the just yeah, yeah, yeah um the one of them talks about um destruction of the like The the the the body protecting the jews and then the other talks about Destruction of the jews like so they're they're competing translations and my my assessment is that The translation referring to destruction of the the body backing the jew is namely the british mandate is the Is the accurate one, but that's a little bit. We're getting in the weeds a bit My my my contention here. So so the the leader of the palestinian movement back then did meet with hitler and did Uh, can I make this point to collaborate against the jews? Yeah, there's no question. You did that great But I follow morris's chronology. Yeah, no, there's no of course that happened Who could deny that? There's two points. I guess please Okay, first of all You're the chronology that you have the chronology wrong the transfer the support for transfer is what as morris says By the late 1930s a consensus among the zinus in building inevitable in zinism is what led palestinians Resists it's what morris writes morris writes that what led palestinians to resist is the fear I need to get back and read on that, but i'm pretty sure that that is not the that is 100 Because because it can't be because i'm pretty sure i remember his history of running down of How the palestinian attacks happened long before the 40s and 30s including for example, they were not Putting the in the 1829 have run massacre in the in the nine in the 18 You know why they were happening because the the the yashuv was buying palestinian land and then Expelling the tenant farmers that was a systematic practice. Okay, so and they were and they that's that's legal regardless Whether it's illegal some illiterate peasant who has known no other life. His father's another life is going to be Angry and alienate horrified and furious after that happens and it reflects the broader intention to take the land Look, look, I agree with you. I agree with you There is a human element to this a person who lives on the land who is not in charge of the land But who just lives there and who makes a living on this land And and doesn't and doesn't know anything about the law if he if this this person is one day told This land has been bought by somebody else. You have to leave and go somewhere else They will be frustrated and then they will see it as Their life being stolen and taken away and they will be hostile however Being ignorant is not really a fantastic excuse here because what is actually happening behind the scenes is that A jewish organization is coming and buying that land legally completely normally and regularly And thereby having now a say over that land and saying this land belongs to me now And I want to use this for different purposes. So you have to leave If do you think that that justifies violence then That means somebody who is convicted today should also We're not talking about morally justified violence. I'm trying I'm trying to have a realistic conversation here I am saying that if you they're systematically displacing people and they initially did it within the scope of the law There's going to be a backlash and moreover morris writes and righteous victims The backlash was centered around the fear that the jews are going to take the land They're trying to take the land they're trying to kick us off That is all over the place in palestinian magazines at the magazines on newspapers at the time That is the core fear and that was the source of the backlash among christian and muslim palestinians And therefore the zionist project which didn't seek to go there and live with the palestinians But to take the land to have a two states to to to partition it based on this incredibly Like this pseudo religious laughable claim that because 2 000 years ago a minority of your ancestors were there You have the right to not only go there. Oh, that's fine. You keep you keep going back to that claim No, that is that that is the stupidity of zionism which caused this whole problem You keep going back to that and deflecting from the thing that we're talking about right now I'm not deflecting. I'm saying it makes sense. They were against partition and the reason that they were sympathetic But not although the L who's any has responsibility for collaborating with this horrible regime The reason he was sympathetic to them and that some palestinians Is because they saw them as the enemy of the british and the enemy of zionism, right? And it's horrible, but that makes real politics What we have established so far is the zionist movement Which by the way doesn't just consist of people who are you know, who are in europe and moving there I mean right now the israeli population overwhelming these they're did originally currently the israeli population, for example Is it mostly not even ashkenazi? But that's not as to not not as to europe but So what we're talking about is the zionist movement comes and Makes a plan initially they think We should collaborate with whoever is in charge of the land then world war two ensues Ottomans lose the land british takeover under the leadership of the league of nations they say this should be used to To to create a a state for the people there eventually it's The league of nations Recognizes that the jewish people should have a land there for them with Respect of all the rights of the local population that is there as well How and then the zionists come and what they do until 1948 or you could argue Certain parts of 1947 They buy land they buy and buy and buy and buy and buy nobody comes in and just violently kick somebody out They buy land and then take it over as a response to that the arab side things Oh, no these guys want to take all of our land and destroy us and kick us out. We should fight them I'm sorry, but You could say these people have concerns and are there for fighting. Okay, but this is not This is not internationally Justifiable it wasn't justifiable back then and you can't make the claim that because of their fears their attacks on the jews were justified Nobody is i've not been arguing that that mass occurs by either jews or arabs in this period were Justified but you did but you did argue that no i'm arguing that that the public zionist Had the position that they should that they should make a population Change i'm sorry if if the zionists are repeatedly attacked by the arab side Repeatedly undergo pogroms repeatedly are removed from places like hebron, which were for centuries Populated by jews then of course the zionists will say, you know what? We should make sure that we are not now rid von dominated by these people because they want to kill us As morris says now he pretends he didn't mean it but it's people have actually read The book which i would try to have the bertha palace new refugee problem revisited He clearly argues that because the vision of a jewish statement a jewish robust majority You cannot have an arab majority or a very large minority. So you needed to have population Change you need to have ethnic cleansing. There's no other way to do it That is the morris's argument You probably is moving away from that now because he wants to debate with destiny about great israelis But that's that's the argument and and and the the prop look The the project of trying to build a jewish state in palestine was the cause of the conflict Then and and the crimes that entailed are what need to be resolved if you want to get palestines to stop hating israelis And that is the cause of the terrorism. I notice i'm not using morally reflective terms They shouldn't hate israelis. They shouldn't support terrorism But they they do because they stole their land and their foreigners who came and stole their land and ethnically cleanse them and that's the and have have occupied them ever since As we talked about including the arab israelis for a time. So that's the cause of this And there needs to be apology reparations and A long-term vision you can have a short-term vision a long-term vision of some kind of right of return And a short term as a short-term policy Two-state solution with full full I'm pretty sure that the whole idea for right of return is completely out of question and will never happen And and this is actually the only reason why this conflict is basically going on because western people still entertain this idea of a possible return right of return which Will not happen. Why would why would these people who are living a happy and peaceful life except That all of these people should come back into a land who don't want them to exist there who according to According to polls way before the war say that a two-state solution is not enough We should eventually have all of the land and this by the way leads to something which uh, you you repeat that they say that They are uh, that they don't want to live with arab. They don't want to Recognize an an Arab population, ethnic cleansing, genocide, whatever during the foundation of israel 1948 the israelis themselves acknowledged that there would be an Arab population inside israel and that's uh The feelings of this Arab population should be taken into account in yeah, which lived under marshal law for 19 years Which had land systemically stolen from them as I mentioned and yet they and yet they weren't It's 20 percent of the population today. They're doing very well The point actually by the israeli arabes is interesting. So first of all, you shouldn't whitewash the history of their own Land that they lost about half their land through expropriation and due toization after the war However, it is true that israeli arabes are by far the least anti-semitic Arab population. In fact, yes Yes, and they're also happy. I haven't seen that. I believe you. Um, in fact, uh, they're They they almost all um overwhelmingly opposed uh, october 7th. So this is I rather interesting. They're the same people essentially but they're living in a state with israel And uh, they weren't denied a right to live in there in their ancestral home So this makes me believe that you can't do in the short run. There's way too much hatred but If you allow the indigenous population to return a long run, they integrate in the way the arabisraelis Have there's no reason to believe that they intrinsically will hate the jews because they're co ethnics with the same culture Same origins, uh, don't fine. So I think I think I agree with you that right because israel is the problem is the palestines will keep Look, I I know a bunch of palestines. I've lived in the region. I speak arabic They're never their grievances are not it's not islam Yeah, the lx mosque. That's a plays a role But like the big grievances they stole our land and kicked us out. That is a big grievance, right? And the way to address that grievance is to apologize and invite them back in Now i'm not saying you invite them back in tomorrow. There'd have to be preconditions mat you'd have to have like Stages of deragalization no terrorism and this it would take years decades and so on I'm not saying you could have right over two in the short run, but I think if you adopt this simply this is Well, you know, what's under realistic israel continuing as this because its neighbors all hate it and the united states just props it up Like it is a cold piece with egypt It that that would happen anyway because the the arab side was from the beginning as you stated As well now if you address these against the existence of a of a jew state all together They will never you address these issues. I believe that that arab's If israel actually apologized for stealing the land kicking out the indigenous population I believe not and and conditional on this would also be a accountability for palestinian war crimes I believe you could have in the long run. You couldn't you would need to have preconditions and a long process of Deradicalization you could have the people of the other the short-term policy Very long process It can't be you'd have said you said you said before although i didn't bring it up You said it you said before several times that that that the islamic aspect is not a You know big deal or not that big of a problem and all that um, I brought this up recently in in the debate with the analiki kichu which you saw and Also on many different occasions, but it is it is not only gaza, but also the west bank Where repeatedly the narrative of eventually Having the religious obligation to fight and exterminate the jews as brought up again and again and again Two people who will go who go to the mosque you go to the friday prayer and this is talking about at the college end of the You turn on the tv you turn on the tv and it is I'll give you a chance to wrap up ap so it doesn't go on too long, but then uh History speaks of who again Let's let ap finish this point and then we'll maybe give you the same amount of time We will give you the same amount of time for ap Yeah, yeah, so you will bring up of course the idea that this is a scatology. It doesn't really matter I grew up as a muslim. I know how muslims grow up. I see them all the time In islam it is taught It has been taught for a long time that the muslims will eventually and this is necessary to happen in order for For the hour to come muslims will fight the jews and kill them wherever they find them And even rocks and trees will say there's a jew behind me come and kill him And and they are taught that this will eventually happen It will happen before the hour comes And muslims always have this obsession with the hour being possibly quite soon and the science appearing This has been a trend for 1400 years. So, um, you can you can say as much as you want that this is about a scatology It doesn't really matter muslims believe that this is the eventual thing that will happen and In the palestinian territories under hamas extensively But also under the west bank under fatah. It has been taught and people have been indoctrinated from childhood with this For many many years. So expecting israel to just let these people in and slowly reeducate them and all of that This is a bit of a fantasy You're muted okay, so the I don't look This is obviously first of all it's eschatology and you have similar doctrines and christianity where jesus is going to toss All the non-believers into the lake of fire and then includes the jews and and so on So it's eschatology. It isn't practically relevant for what was i'm supposed to do And second, yeah, is it emphasized? Yes, and I believe it's emphasized in large part because of the conflict I don't believe for a second that arab israelis are as fixate on this for example who are muslim as uh, Israeli as a arabs in the west bank are or or gaza So no, I think the religious issue is very secondary. It's two people fighting over land It's an indigenous population like the native americans as the analogy I gave earlier, which I absolutely stand by Caring about their land feeling like they've been displaced the land was stolen which it was And uh that they've been occupied since they haven't had autonomy. It's basically national autonomy and wanting to return to their Land that is why they hate the the israelis and if the israelis address those problems You will have a decrease in terrorism in support for terrorism even in the 1990s As flawed as the oslo process was You had large now you have majority of palestinian supporting terrorism, right? October 7th. We talked about in the 1990s The figure was about 20 30 percent even fell as low as 5.8 percent or something like that six percent In one poll so when the palestinians thought they were on the path to a state Support for terrorism fell. So I think that shows you that appeasing their Their their grievances really does Reduce support for terrorism and if you went further and said we are in the long run Committed to some kind of right of return if conditions are met And obviously not going to do that in five years or 10 years or 20 years But just as a vision for them And an apology for what happened. I think and a state right in the short run of state In the 1967 borders, I think you'd have a huge decrease in radicalization Because I think look, I think they're rude. Ultimately. I think the problem is they support killing israelis It's for terrorism and that Attitude is like the vietcong's attitude like native americans. It's rooted in In national aspirations are being denied while the time is passing and generations are are Are moving away from what happened So long ago and today's israelis despite being Significantly repeatedly targeted Still don't generally hate the other side as much as the other side hates the israelis It's like a pulse to like 95 percent of them say they hate jews It's it's simply ridiculous Israel is is educating its own population and preventing them from being radicalized like the like the garrisons like the Israeli which is why israeli arabs don't Don't grow to You know adopt the the very same things israelis making sure to even distance Which I think in my opinion is not really not even a good thing to do But israel does it anyway because they think it's healthy for the population to separate islam from islamic radicalism And to say this these all these things that the palestinians do it has nothing to do with islam islam is not like that Which is and the israeli arabs are very very moderate compared to the palestinian arabs Which is why 50 percent of them or more say they are they are proud to be israelis as Which is a which is a huge thing Yeah, I think I think again So, you know, again, it's important to mention the history of their land was stolen the israeli arabs and they were occupied for 18 years But nevertheless now their situation is much better, right? They're not living in the apart high conditions of the west bank or in the internment camp of gaza So their situation is much better. They live on their ancestral land and they're de radicalized I think the case the israeli arabs which you cite is When your case supports my case that if you address the issues so these people have citizenship in israel, right? They're given citizenship. They're no longer occupied. They're no longer a tree of the way they were The radicalization will decrease and if you're saying it's muslim islam, it doesn't really make sense of why there's so much more moderate Um, because there was some too much in the large majority the israeli arabs. Good. Good. All right With that, this is probably a great time to go into the q&a I want to do a couple of quick housekeeping things in particular folks If you haven't yet put that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up and also want to let you know Our guest will link to the description. 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Okay, so could I just have like 10 seconds, uh, james In terms of more open dialogue, no, I'm just gonna step away and come back. Oh, yeah, no problem We'll do housekeeping stuff while you step away folks want to let you know we have channel memberships I always forget to mention this we do have channel memberships and we do have a patreon So if you want to support modern day debate, we do appreciate that support It's something that I am excited to be done with my phd soon and it is something that I am considering Uh, it's a possibility. I'm kind of deciding am I gonna go full time as a psychologist Or modern day debate, uh, I do think I want to try being a psychologist But I am kind of like, you know, I do love modern day. It's so fun I love modern day debate and so I am sometimes thinking like man, could I do this full time? Like could that work? And so we do appreciate all of your support of modern day debate and want to let you know though We have big plans. Uh, this is my first time that I've been able to host for like three weeks And I wanted to especially for this debate Very important debate. I appreciate both of our guests ap and history speaks and Want to let you know it's been super busy. So I appreciate all of your guys the support of modern day debate Justin and ryan as our guest mods have done a fantastic job filling in for me So modern day debate can stay active my data collection for my dissertation has been Uh beyond laborious. Uh, it's been just insane Where I'm doing a survey online. Uh, it has a nice incentive. So we paid it's 20 dollars for a 12 minute survey We've had bots Bullrush My survey to where it's been such a pain trying to figure out which are genuine responses and which are bots It's not as easy as you think. Uh, it's actually like a lot of these bots are pretty you can do it The ai is getting smarter. So we're gonna jump into this q&a. Thank you for your vote of confidence and This one coming in from Mimsake thanks for your kind words and megan marie Says to both in your opinions. What do you think could end this war? That's a very very easy question to ask and a very hard one to answer. Uh I don't know. I don't think I'm in any position to Actually give a proper opinion on that It's it's too complicated To just sit down and say if they just do this and this and this and this It will end in my in my opinion in my in my most uh in my simplest opinion Hamas needs to surrender release the hostages and and and and abstain from existing and Give the the the control over the Gaza Strip over to israel and then a solution will Possibly come in the future. I don't know Yeah, um I think that the way to end the war is for the united states to coerce israel and to stop and to stop supplying them with the armaments and And or condition that on the end of the of the war if if they prefer to give israel weapons, which they I'm sure they do But the united states could easily exercise leverage to get Israel to accept a long-term ceasefire with hamas in exchange for the hostages, which hamas is clearly um open to If you listen to biden's interview the other day I'm gonna stop the video folks if you're watching online Just a minute. I'm gonna stop the video for all participants in the zoom chat just because right now we are having such a uh bad connection So do hang in there with us folks as I am turning off the video I'm gonna try to make this a little bit smoother In terms of us being able to stream this where your connection will hopefully be This will be a little bit less taxing Not our connection. So bear with me folks. I do realize that I see you in live chat saying that it's buffering and you're right It is buffering and I'm working on trying to figure this out because I've never had a connection issue like this so Hang with us. It should be a little bit less load on the uh bandwidth as I the video down And this next question coming in hopefully let me know though in chat if you can at least hear because that's the big thing We want to be sure that you can hear and then we'll turn the video back on once our connection is caught up So this one coming in from The uralic tribe says matt why are you lying about gaza having historical muslim islamic era of significance? When the name palestine comes from the word lillistines who had greek roots Who were invading and hurting jewish people? Okay, so, um, is volume working? Yes, okay, um Well, palestine obviously has muslim significance because of al-pods or jerusalem um Done with iraq and so forth Historically in terms of the palestinian identity Um, it emerged if I don't know the question was talking about islam or meant palestinian identity Even the palestinian identity emerges benny morris has said rashid khaledi has said That um, it emerges by the 1920s. It's a normative by the 1920s, right? That's at the same time that that choir read by jabotinsky before then people would identify as navlusi or You know from yafa or from jerusalem or they would identify as shammy lavantine or from greater syria But there was always a or from southern syria, right? That was also an entity but as khaledi shows there was um always a um Pardon me, not always there was a Long before the conflict was the foundation of this identity which becomes explicitly palestinian not just lavantine not just From the city of nablus Not just from the city of yafa or jerusalem, but palestinian Um is articulated in the late 19th century and then there comes mainstream by the 1920s This one coming in from robin webster says history speaks how much of israel is occupied Palestinian land is it possible for hamas to live in peace with israel within a two state solution? look, I think that um part of a A two state settlement would require um, and i would favor it requiring by the way um the palestinians to forsake violence against israel as a means of Vindicating rights historical rights like the right of return and also recognizing israel So you'd have to have either hamas change and change in a credible way, right? That is viewed as credible by israel in the international community or you'd have to have other bodies In charge of palestine my expectation hamas is not particularly popular in gaza pre-war And you're right and I think now it's it's quite unpopular We talked about support for october 7th, but that's different than support of hamas as a group But I think you'd likely to see them marginalized pretty quickly after this after this war But in any case there has to be recognition and peace for a two state settlement You got it and thank you very much for your question This one coming in from do appreciate it robin webster strikes again Is why did hamas advise civilians to remain history speaks? um I have to say i'm not uh aware of this happening in a systematic way and I don't want to deny it because How much my inclination but I don't want to deny it because if it's happening um, this is something I should look into so I just have to Say I do not uh Know that they did this in a systematic fashion, which would be the relevance of it What I do know is that hamas did not prevent Any kind of systematic level people from leaving and they in fact did evacuate Which is why despite uh, the horrible casualties, which are again as ridvan didn't Even attempt to rebut are higher than any war if in a like monthly basis and a rate of killing civilians Other than genocidal wars for for decades um They haven't it would still it would be much higher still given that they're raising the strip israel If they hadn't allowed This huge departure of civilians so civilians have been allowed to leave um Which is a more important issue. I think in terms of what hamas has advised again I I just have to my ignorance about whether they've done this a systematic level or not I can say that it is um, it is documented. You can look into this and I can find you author the direct source or just news articles that I have here. Um, we're hamas in response to calls to evacuate set Uh, stay where you are be steadfast in your homes um In the face of the disgusting warfare or something like that So hamas did explicitly tell people to stay at home And we also had many many reports and videos and statements by people Saying that hamas prevents them from leaving and shoots at people who are evacuating I could I say one thing quicker? I would say james or no, okay. Let's find out no if it's really super quick Yeah, it's really it'll be really quick. The point is that the people made it to rafa as we all know So they didn't back to back you away This one from robert. You'll loon and so that this point this war is just revenge Any thoughts anybody? um That's supposed to say that israel is just seeking revenge I think so well, I would say that that that is absurd. Uh, it's not it is a necessary war And revenge is not the the issue the people of israel and in their view on this war is Generally that it is very unfortunate and very tragic But it must be done so that it can never something like this can never happen again in the future You got it. This one coming in from you robert says This is not defending. This is full blown. We got that This one from isa cabr says to both if you had your ideal conditions, what Would you like the the region to look like? What conditions would need to be met in order to have peace? You go first Yeah, no, I think that the hatred is again rooted in this history of of ethnic cleansing and land theft occupation and The occupation has to end The and the ethnic cleansing and that that has to be apologized for there has to be some vision Of not only a short-term specific concrete Soon planned for a palestinian state but a long-term vision of allowing people to return to their indigenous land And I think if you had that and you had apologies and you had mutual recriminations for war crimes you could have Uh, a serious reduction in palestinian hatred and arab hatred for israelis Which as I say is the real cause not hamasis rag tag group with the real cause of the terror Israel faced is this hatred I would say that So the ideal future Where peace could happen if it was possible would be a one state solution Under israel as it is today given that within israel the communities are doing well The the Arabs are not being oppressed or anything People are living together For for the palestinian side to let go of their radical views and radical ideas and their hope to Return to pre-war times and all that Or to take all of israel They have to let go of their of their radical ideas of their hatred of their religious ambitions And just let israel Rule because they're obviously doing a significantly better job at keeping the peace You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it the uralic tribe says History speaks stop lying about jewish folks Originating from kazars of eastern europe when the kazars were eurasian step nomads from asia who converted to judaism and existed until the mongols tipped checks and humans wiped them out completely Yeah, I've never endorsed has our theory. It's not true. The only thing i Jews do originate from Israel the only thing i've said is um, this is they originate the ashkenazi jews who founded the state of israel this Before the mizrahim came in large number later We're mostly not dissent from the land and their ancestry was from thousands of years ago. So it's just not The point is it's not reasonable for them to say, okay, we were here first thousands of years ago 30 percent of our ancestors Whatever 40 percent And therefore we can partition the land it isn't endorsing kazar theory You got it this one coming in thanks tom tom says ap israel are holding thousands of palestinian children in israeli prisons Give palestinians equal rights Um, it really depends on what uh, you How you define children it is documented Over the years even amnesty international which is often very very critical and harsh against israel document it in 2005 2009 2012 21 and so on repeatedly that hamas uses children as suicide bombers knife attackers people who carry out carry Explosives and munition around with them at the ages of 12 13 15 16 17 and so on Lots of lots of them are then detained and not treated badly When we talk of children People make it look like they're taking a bunch of 12 year olds or 10 year olds and putting them in prison and keeping them there forever That's not what's happening. That's a completely absurd view. Um and There there is no case of israel just randomly, you know taking people Detaining them and keeping them without any charges without any justification forever. That's not what's happening. It's uh, it's all public It's all justifiable You've got it. Thanks very much. This one coming in from Hector says History speaks amos leaders openly say they are proud to sacrifice their own citizens And it's not their job to protect them. Amos is doing everything in their power to maximize civilian deaths No, they're not doing everything in their power to maximize civilian They're not doing everything in their power certainly to prevent them either, right? They didn't uh, they've been bed themselves the civilian infrastructure I agree with red bond that they've done this and that's a war crime and increases the risk of civilians, but they're not They're not commandeering civilians and coercing them into staying in war zones at any systematic level, which is why we see You know the the vast majority Made it to rafa, right? So, uh, this is an exaggeration. They certainly can criticize hamas for And bang itself in civilian infrastructure But the claims made in this regard are exaggerated and I would say that I get I gave many examples of in the introduction with red bond did not effectively refute it all really of white flag shootings of You know bombing el-shifa hospital of cases where obviously disproportionate or a discriminant force was used without any kind of Human shield excuse Although hamas does operate in civilian infrastructure like el-shifa You got it robert yalonin says Hamas says we will not stop until we are completely rid of them Israel also says we will not stop until we are completely rid of them. What's the difference? There is a huge difference israel does not say we will not stop until we are rid of them as in the palestinians or Of them as in any Authority that they might have or even their ethnic group Whereas hamas on the other hand explicitly said repeatedly over the many years Two things that they that they will not stop until they are Rid of the jews and also that they will not stop until israel is completely destroyed and annihilated And because it is it is impossible for it to exist And that position has been there all along even when israel made offers for a two-state solution Plus on october 7 they they very much presented that They have no regard for anyone and they will Willingly and lovingly execute civilians point blank whether they're children women or men Samuel taheed says ken mr. Hamas proved that muhammad was in jerusalem I mean i'm not in the business of defending Islamic scripture i'm not muslim so yeah no i can't Robert says tom jump president of usa 2024. Thanks for that j dan says question for history speaks Would you agree the nature of the october 7 attack? Makes it hard for many people to side with palestine This would be a 9 11 or harrell pearl harbour for americans Yeah, I I do. I mean it was a massacre, right? I mean, uh, I actually translated I tweeted up this a while ago. I'll probably retweet afterwards just because of this question They there was an order to massacre. It's not just that this happened like my lie or whatever But yeah, of course it But there are still I think is a very broad international support for palestinian cause Nevertheless, my view is that um, uh, violent resistance This kind of thing is is obviously going to alienate especially western opinion Nevertheless, um, I think we have to Uh, also see that israel hasn't provided any incentive for peaceful For acting peacefully the pa since the end of the second in defaulter has not Engaged any terrorism. They talk about this martyrs payment, but they don't actually launch terrorism. They prevent terrorism, right? They're basically police for israel and yet they don't have they never got any any plausible viable offer of a state Despite, uh, you know 20 years of non-violence about so They need to have this incentive to be peaceful or they're gonna be violent And and they're gonna be violent in in a way like this terrorism massacre because they can't Defeat israel in a conventional military sense. So it's to cause suffering the civilian population It's wrong, but you have to also Not just moralize you have to look at what is the motivation and what is also the basis of the hatred which i talked about earlier You got it this one coming in from agent black says will jews be allowed to live in a quote unquote palestinian state I think the question is for history speaks. I would just say, uh, Obviously, no, they wouldn't History speaks. Yeah, I would say, uh, uh, it's absolutely plausible and the foundation of it is Yeah, okay, rizman left, but so the couple things here Obviously, we're not just kind of jumping to this I've already said that what my vision is which is short term two state solution 67 borders real sovereignty and long term With conditions met right of return and you'd have people living in the same state So it's a it's a longer term vision. You'd have to see the populations radicalizing that gage of terrorism, etc But I believe it's quite possible and the example I'd look to is jordan jordan is majority palestinian You have a christian minority that is very well integrated is economically overrepresented. They do better than muslims Um, and is very well liked. It's not subject to terrorism. So of course, it's possible. Yeah, I mean there's no Uh, you know christians have the same theological status as jews in islam People the book so there's no reason that this isn't uh possible Although it will take time for for healing and there have to be apologies and reparations Made in war criminals held their account. That's not true. Even even by the quran. That's not true christians and jews are not Do don't have the same status, uh in in islam, uh, morally, um Jews are considered Um worse than christians christians can be tolerated And according to the quran are closer to muslims whereas jews are the worst the most distant Which is why they are also Seen as the ones who will be eventually annihilated This one coming in from sancho panza says i'm here for the leather straps One of you guys selling leather straps or something this one from the uralic tribe says history speaks You talk about paying reparations for the past then by that logic as a hungarian I want reparations for the atrocities muslims committed against my people for 150 years during the ottoman empire Well, there have to be you know, there has to be a statute of limitations on these things and um In terms of land that was stolen within living memory. I think that's a different issue than um What happened with respect to the ottoman so respect to the uh to the armenian genocide for example I think the turks should pay reparations point of fact Um, so it would there has to be it's hard to pinpoint it But certainly things that happen within living memory like someone whose house was literally stolen who's alive today Like I I met a guy, uh, you know, actually a father if i'll shut him out. Uh, well, he's sheikho. Um, his father You know his house was stolen yaffa, right? So, um, rather this absentee property law so-called so Yeah, he he he passed away recently, but he deserved reparations for that. That's within his lifetime and willy it's his father so I think it's hard to like give a precise numerical thing But I think things that happen within living memory definitely deserve compensation And even a little bit outside of it like the armenian genocide, but you know, we would go back thousands of years or I mean hundreds of years obviously in this case the question was talking about it becomes more dubious Careful how you speak about turks Yes one zero zero two says if native americans did a 10 Seven namely october 7th Would that be okay? I can answer a word down come to yeah. Yeah, no, I wouldn't I don't think it's okay, but it's explicable Right, it's it's morally wrong. I'm not I'm not one of these people who defends Stuff in october although I have to say a bunch of my arab friends do right? Um in the region Uh, but I don't I think it's wrong. Um, so no, I wouldn't say it's acceptable But I think it's explicable and you have to look at the source of the hatred in both cases, right? Or you have to look at the vie con the vie con is an example they they committed many massacres What are the what are the motives for that, right? This is the ridiculousness of the situation. It's like That so many people think that the things that happened on october 7 that were done are Justifiable for some reason or you know can be can be explained now. I'm not saying that Matt history speaks here is saying it's justifiable. He's not he's saying it's explicable even that I would say is is is Is a little bit absurd But uh, lots of people including most palestinians think it is justifiable where it's okay and uh, this just shows the huge discrepancy in A morality and their understanding and grasp of it. Um It should be under no circumstances Justifiable to carry out the horrible things that were done on october 7 We have footage of it every time that I just have a little little Look at it. I feel And nobody should be subjected to that or justify that under any circumstance. No matter what injustice was done to you You got it this one coming in from do appreciate your question as well Bungie jumper says what happened to the yazidis? That's islam Jewish folks next yeah, I mean Yeah, the azidis were uh a group that was clearly religiously motivated their extreme form of islam islamic state um exterminated uh committed genocide against yazidis uh raped women and horrible atrocities, I will say i'm Polling of the palestinian shows that a trivia like 1 1.3 1.7 support isis Uh, you know, so it's not as if because they support hamas. They're some of the isis they weren't um, so it's a different it's a different Uh a type of ideology, but of course, uh, yeah, I mean there's no question that This was islamically motivated, but there's also no question that the overwhelming majority of muslims are all polling and i've acknowledged with Vons point about october 7 support But if he's being intellectually honest, he'd he'd acknowledge and i'm not saying he hasn't that Muslims overwhelmingly according to every opinion poll we saw in the islamic world opposed isis nevertheless isis was motivated by Their interpretation of the religion clearly That is true, but uh, it's not limited to just isis. The yazidis continuously isis only took it to the very extreme This one coming in from do appreciate it Rector says api. I agree is reels wars justified, but at the very least do you think israel should apologize for killing far four What does that mean? far four Sorry, that can totally unexpected far four is a Is a tv character that was created by hamas for their for their national state tv that is based on mickey mouse and is basically a adduating terrorist character which is Horrible, but it's just funny if you look at it. Yeah, anyway You've got it. That's it coming in joshu wooden says he does not know liberal politics or middle eastern history and islamic and jewish theology Your prescription does not match reality and good job ap This is christia critique of you history speaks if you want to defend yourself Yeah, I mean, I would just I just say the example that uh, ritham brought up Look at these so if if the argument is islam is so incorrigible that they can't live in peace. Why do the israeli erubs? Get along with the israeli jews as part of it is just proximity to people You don't see them as the jew But part of it too is that they're treated much better than the people in occupied territories are and they weren't ethnically cleansed from their land so I think if the If the treatment were better if the um, if the historical crimes were toned for and apologized for You'd have and the economy were given you'd have I mean the case the israeli erubs is a is a kind of example that ridvan provided Right to me so You got it. This one coming in from do appreciate it Door daniel said says my cousin was in a raid in an area of the west bank and saw something quote-unquote shocking about 27 slash 30 kids wanted to be Shahid when they grow up. Please explain We have a lot of documentation for that also from what's Shahid by the way just so people know Oh Shahid means martyr in arabic Very very heavily emphasized term in islam and islamic history There are lots of on-road documents From schools where they teach children The importance of being a martyr and fighting and all that Lots of interviews that went around lots of Undercover interviews and so on. There's just so much dirt dug up But yeah, it is it is average education and the palestinian territories that it's the noblest thing to fight the occupation and to be a martyr Yeah, I'll just comment really quickly that the palestinian notion of martyrdom Is not a conventional islamic notion for example like erin bushnell's christian. Oh, no, he's not a muslim Is this guy bird himself? He's called martyr by palestinians right serene abu akhla was called martyr. So this is a Of course, there's a religious component to a shahid the term, but there also is a secular It's much more complicated than just oh it's something the other point I'd make is if you watch the videos of all these Massacre children the and the parents people are not happy. They're children are dying It's I'm not saying that there wouldn't be some fanatical people who are but people are not happy about this So just look at you can talk about islamic doctrine, but if you look at how people have martyred or whatever they call them Children they're not happy about it. They're very distressed, so You got it. Also, there's a poll in chat folks here at modern day debate check that out if you want to put your vote in In terms of where you side on this topic this one coming in from joshu wooden says if they say the starving people Is our thanks to hamas not the idf as all israeli food convoys have been stolen and gazan's murdered by hamas a little knowledge helps sassy History speaks for you Yeah, I mean it's it's utter nonsense. If you look at for example smotrish the minister of finance blocked the shipment of flour into gaza you look at Also, for instance Very highly bureaucratic seen ended an investigation of this highly bureaucratic limitations on whether a convoy can come in or there's like Some device that like some very theoretical way could be used by terrorists. The whole convoy gets turned around israel's clearly bottlenecking the aid This is part of their program to use food as a weapon of war that human rights watchers accuse them of we saw at the beginning of the war They wanted to let no food in and we made them. I provide the evidence for that Gallant said they wanted to let no food in they basically want to starve these people and coerce them into either overthrowing hamas or turning over the Hostages, so yeah, they're using foods a weapon of war and the and the question is totally erroneous when you says israel wants to um wants to Give these people food to the extent that they've done it. It's because of our pressure But you do acknowledge that uh, they have been many instances of hamas or yeah Attacking the a trucks and just losing them or I mean I would have to define many but they've they've an attack But they've certainly commandeered resources for themselves. Yeah You got it this one coming in from ricky loco 234 says should the usa be involved in this war and why? um Depends on how you define involved. Uh, should they be supplying israel? With with help they definitely should and i'm glad they do The u.s. Is a is a is a good good ally, although the current administration is kind of an embarrassment in terms of how they are handling and pandering to people Getting otherwise involved Should not be unnecessary unless a large regional war breaks out which Uh, I hope does not happen and I also don't think will happen anytime soon because Israel is surrounded by cowards that like to speak a lot I'd like to come on this quick. Um, yeah Yeah, no the united states absolutely shouldn't be involved israel is a massive liability for the united states not in our interest It's betraying our values as I said earlier. They're raising the strip in three months of fighting. They destroyed 45 percent of housing Or made it inhabitable. So they've killed more civilians at a per month rate You know than any war other than genocidal wars in decades as I showed earlier So no, we shouldn't be supporting this. It's it's making us enemies and israel doesn't particularly help us So no, we shouldn't be involved at all No name says would history speaks submit to sharia caliphate with all that it implies, etc No, I certainly wouldn't You got it and let me just be sure we're gonna wrap up folks Do you want to say folks check out our guest links in the description box? And we are very grateful the debaters are the lifeblood of the channel So thank you very much ap and history speaks It's been a true pleasure to have you guys and folks if you're listening to the other podcast You can find our guest links in the description box there too We put it there as well and if you haven't checked out the podcast folks check it out It's available at apple podcast spotify Every podcast app you can find modern a debate where our debates are uploaded within about 24 hours of the debate being live And want to say thanks so much for watching folks. I'll be back in just a moment after I let our guests out I want to say one last time thanks ap and history speaks. It's been a true pleasure to host you May I say uh very briefly before we leave that I um Despite being very very very harsh and heated at certain at certain points I must say that I appreciate my opponent history speaks matt How he is conducting himself and I appreciate I actually appreciate this debate and how it was how it went um, so Just want to put that out there Yeah, I I appreciate the opportunity very much rad I uh me as well I think that folks the good thing is because sometimes people are uncomfortable with debate Even though I mean, I don't know for me. It's I guess I'm desensitized, but my thought is uh, folks, you know It's a somebody who gets passionate although today was actually civil. I mean people are passionate You can't it's not a big even in conversations about the weather people interrupt each other sometimes just something that happens And the idea though is At least people are talking. I think that's a good thing They're not shooting each other like they're not attacking each other And it's like uh at the end of rocky four as he said like they're not killing each other like Uh, and this isn't even a boxing match like this is just a good old debate and not only that but It is good that both sides are still talking to each other I think things become worse When people become siloed off and they say we're not even going to engage with them anymore We're not going to talk with them anymore. We're not going to listen to their views anymore Not going to be so they just completely silo off. I think that's a bad thing I think this is a good value. So as I said, check out our guest links I'll be back in just a moment. So stick around folks and one last thanks to our guests. It's been a true pleasure guys Folks, thanks so much for being here thrilled to have you want to say we are excited for a lot of things in particular What a great debate huge. Thanks to our guests. They are the life by the channel as I mentioned Folks, this is a great debate. It was uh respectful. It was thoughtful is rigorous I do want to say we appreciate you for being here if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up This is just the beginning of modern day debate story So we appreciate all of your support as this is a neutral platform for debates. There are no videos where it's just me Making the case for something because we said from the start we want modern day debate to be all debates all the time So there's no videos where as an example like I don't do any sort of post credits Video where I say oh man that debate was so bad and all their arguments were so bad And likewise, I don't have any sort of essay videos where it's like here's james's position on Israel or Palestine. No, it is just purely debates here This is a unique channel in that way and that this isn't Any individual's channel. This is like you could say it's the community's channel in other words If one side is represented in a debate you're you can be guaranteed darsher You're gonna have both sides. I want to say thank you guys for your support I want to say hello to you in the early in the old live chat I'm gonna get out of here pretty quick because it's one 24. It's the middle of work day And I've got to get a few things done. In fact, a lot of things done, but I want to say before I do Leave the stream. I want to say thanks for being here net tube user. I see you there in the old live chat Thanks for being with us as well as tarfer. Good to see you Oni chan. Let me know if I'm saying it right. Glad to have you Gaia, am I saying it right? Thanks for being with us. BH happy that you're here Gia, Tony happy to have you Tom tom good to have you with us a Hamilton script glad that you are here kamalot chimp. Thanks for dropping in Malcolm laden. Thanks for being with us knocks play. 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Thanks for coming by victoria. Happy to have you here. Happy frenzy Thanks for being with us Let's see here gray jedi. Good to see you back and notorious tbg Happy to have you here the bottles glad to have you with us Marar lay. Thanks for dropping in Nox play happy to have you here And yeah, I want to say ryan ryan the mod good to see you there in the old live chat. Thanks ryan for being with us Huge thanks to ryan and justin our mods who have been filling in so that modern day debate can keep running If it wasn't for them, there would be like weeks at a time where there would be no debates. So they're Integral and necessary. They are a huge help right now. It means so much That it keeps modern day debate going as i'm trying to crush dissertation stuff and finally wrap up this doctorate Which is exciting. It's been a long time you guys. It's just insane that it's been It'll be six years of this doctorate I started this youtube channel Technically I started it before the doctorate, but that was before we turned it into modern day debate used to be called modern day Hysteria and then we said hey, we're going to change this. It's going to be modern day debate in particular And that was like two maybe a month into my doctorate when we like kind of really started making that turn So, yeah, exciting. That's why it's perspective. Good to see you there in the old live chat. I see you there And let's see here See jesus star or that's right. I see that that's your badge for your membership. Thanks for being a member Thanks for dropping in dance viker dance. Thanks for coming by glad to have you here dby 11 Happy to have you with us Conrad says howdy. Thanks so much for saying hello back on rad. I appreciate that And I gotta tell you though, we're excited about the future even though modern day debate. It's true We only had like I mean the funny thing is thanks to ryan and justin It's just been awesome that we still are even like in our slow Month the last month has been a little bit slow at least I've only been on like one or two debates I'm posted in the last month Nonetheless, uh, we've still had like probably an average of two debates a week. We're still pretty good. I mean like Um, maybe our average overall is like three a week Maybe four. I don't think it'd be four necessarily. I'd say three is probably more accurate And we're still keeping up with like two or three a week. Uh, so that's awesome Sometimes we only have one that's not a big deal. Like we're still, you know, still chugging along And I can assure you though, it is true. We've had a lot of the same topics So I know a lot of a lot of people are like, man, you know, there's so many flatters debates It's true. Ceteris paribus. It's just fancy, uh, latin way of saying all things equal We uh found that flat earth is for some reason the most popular topic and then what I mean by All things equal. I mean that in some cases, you know, we have some debates where it's like, oh my gosh You got like half a million views That's more because of the talent and the debate Then in other words the popularity of the speaker and then the topic if you hold all things constant and let's say for example If you have two debaters who are, you know, average quality, let's say the same quality And they're doing a flat earth debate versus two debaters that are doing a Uh, any other topic debate is and imagine they have the same following and popularity Is that the flat earth debate, you know, if you have, let's say two new guys, uh, two two new people That are debating it will do better compared to if there's two new people debating pretty much any other topic Why that is, I don't know I uh, nonetheless, we do we're kind of utilitarian in the sense we're like, hey I mean if it does please the most people then yeah We will host a weekly flat earth and once in a while even two a week Because it just it does seem to please the most people because there are some topics that I'll give you an example. A lot of times people are like, oh, you need to change it up Have more topics and it's like, hey, we've tried for example uh global warming And that honestly if we had two new people Debating global warming you probably get like 4 000 views, which is abysmal for a channel of this size 182 000 subs We should getting at the very least we should be getting Uh, I would say should probably be getting at least 8 000 That's just based on our own history. Realistically, I think we should be getting even more than that But nonetheless, um, you know, if we were to do that, I can tell you it probably get like 4 000 views And that is just like wow, that's we want to please the most people. Uh, we want, you know, people to be the most happy so The most amount of people to be the most happy but want to say thank you guys for all your support Love you guys. Thanks for everything. We're excited about the future. We're gonna still nonetheless We are going to get More topics in here. So we are working on that. So for example, I don't know if you guys saw this Daniel Hukikachu will be debating a popular, uh, youtuber So I don't know if you guys know who this is, uh, his Channel is called Heated Debates and this it's kind of like his own It's kind of like the crucible where it's like kind of like the guys he has position videos It sounds like and then he also has debates And so it's kind of like a hybrid where the host, you know more debates and let's say the average channel Although I'd say there are a lot of you know, it's kind of like a lot of channels are like that where it's like, you know For example, like destiny's content. There are a lot of debates. It's you know, almost always destiny But then they're also You know him playing video games talking about whatever interesting topics so um This guy, like I said called heated debates If you look at it the topic is this isn't 40 days. So I know it's like, uh, You know, it's like James don't make me wait that long. I know But we've also we've got a lot of debates. We've got like two or three debates with Daniel before that In the next month. So that's why Daniel was like, hey, let's push it out Is that this would be in about 40 days of heated debates versus muslim skeptic Uh, this is going to be on hinduism versus islam's treatment of women. In other words, which Treats women With most respect or most properly, whatever you want to say That will be controversial. I think that's going to be a huge debate. So we are excited to have something new Flat suites perspective says james. Are you a natty? Yes. I'm actually I've never taken steroids. I'm flattered actually I'm not I'm never insulted when people ask Because I had people ask since I was like a teenager because I've always loved lifting weights. I just enjoy it intrinsically I just love going to the gym and um Yeah, I mean if anything I'm just flattered because I'm like, wow I'm flattered you think that you know that like apparently look, uh So That's kind, but no actually I've never, uh The most unnatural thing I've used Is that right here? My shoulder is sore. Oh is creatinine And creatinine though is like nothing Related to your hormones or your testosterone. It's basically it just helps your muscles Have more energy available. That's that's it. So it's a very it's a very basic and cheap supplement to creatinine monohydrate Uh, it's very cheap. It's like one of the most effective supplements for strength and uh building strength, so I highly uh Yeah, check with your doctor It can you always want to have plenty of water if you have creatinine Uh, so yeah, I mean and and that's something that yeah bodybuilders would be like Why are you even bringing that up james? Like that's not what people mean when they mean natty I think normal people are like, oh, that's not natural. I'm like, yeah I mean well technically you you actually could just for food you could get the same you could get five grams creatinine a day Uh, it's just that it's a lot harder, you know So you'd have to have a lot more red meat for example, but you can just get it in a white powder Just long as you have plenty of water with it. Your kidneys are fine And I would say like I said, you know check for your doctor first but uh And you know just make sure your kidneys are fine make sure you drink plenty of water if you do try it But yeah, I'm so I do love to lift though. It's fun. It's just I'm gonna do it today I'm gonna do it this afternoon it pretty shortly here. I just enjoy it. It's uh, it's a stress reliever. It makes me feel good um It's uh, yeah, it helps me out of stress. I've just got a lot on my plate I'm always kind of stressed and tired and pushed and Um, at least this last six years of the phd and stuff like so I'm I'm grateful that I get to lift It's fun And yeah, that's the trick. You know do something if you want to exercise do something you enjoy in that way you know, it's fun and you want to do it And uh, motivation is an issue. So whatever that might be for you. Maybe you'll even just walking is so good for you Uh way better than not doing anything. So Tony Hermigiani, am I saying it right happy to have you here in the live chat memory foam. I like your name. It's a cool user name Um, I love memory foam. I've been so grateful to have Uh memory foam. It's just feels great having like a topper on your mattress of memory home Woody Harrelson, glad to have you here. Trinity matrix. Good to have you Dr. Mute you got to see Michael punn glad to have you woody Harrelson. Thanks for dropping in Happy to have you here. But yeah, I want to say thanks for all your kind words. Jim boogie says now for something more valuable Don't forget to invest in tesla and pl tr interesting Juicy, that's so you're not a bot Jim boogie. You can't be because I know I saw other chats from you that were not pushing Investments. Yeah, so you're real. See you just you're just excited about these investments. I'm good for you But yeah, I want to say thanks for all your support. Love you guys and uh Yeah, it's always fun. I I hate leaving like I'm in such a good mood right now that I'm like I've got I got to go to the bank and I got to do all this other stuff. So But thanks guys for all your support. Love you Thanks for everything. I'm excited with the future. We are planning on some big stuff and spoiler alert We are planning on having a debate con later this year debate con five It would be debate con five or fifth conference It's going to be big. We're excited to like really kind of keep stretching and trying to do new things get new speakers So that's going to probably be in october Uh late october probably maybe mid and I'm excited for that. It's going to be a lot of fun We're pumped about the future. So we're going to try all sorts of new things Appreciate all your support and love you guys. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and we will see you at the next debate Thanks everybody