 And welcome back to transitional justice at 4pm Hawaii time on a given Monday. And today we're going to talk about something we've talked about before which but which is dynamic, and has changed and since it's gotten worse, the military takeover in Sudan. And our, I guess our guests who has been with us discussing the same subject over time is Mutasim Ali welcome to the show Mutasim. Thank you for having me Jay, great to be here. We also have Ahmed Abdul Shafi toba with us. Can you introduce him to our viewing audience. Of course, yes, I'm going to have to waste a co founder of the Sudan operation movement army. This is a movement that was founded a little more than 20 years ago to respond to systematic marginalization in Sudan and to promote political change. And I would definitely leave it to him to further introduce himself on his activism, better Sudan. Well, welcome to the show both of you Mutasim and Ahmed really appreciate you coming down. This is a very hard time in Sudan. Mutasim and I talked about it a few weeks ago and as we left the story it looked like there would be peaceful protest in cartoon and elsewhere in Sudan, and that ultimately reason and peaceful protest would prevail. And that has not happened as it would toss it. Unfortunately, you know, after years of struggle right for for change in Sudan. And after moving the Africa's longest dictator, Omar Bashir from office, the Sudanese people are yet to realize change. That's because the elite and the military institution continue to hijack people's revolution. And the recent events in Sudan is a, you know, demonstrates how military institutions in countries like Sudan hijacked people's revolution, people's hops. But what is fascinating about what is happening in Sudan is that people are determined, despite the brutality and ruthlessness of the military and the militias in Sudan. Yeah, you've been following this closely I'm sure you're, you're in Baltimore now but you must be following this day by day because you have been associated with the as an activist or liberation movement in Darfur and and Sudan. So, what is the current state of affairs in terms of the violence that we thought this would be peaceful, but it hasn't been peaceful, and the violence has accelerated. Can you talk about it. Thank you so much for having me. I'm fortunate to come once again. And in the middle of what is happening people are just finding their way out of this great pandemic that left the whole world provides. With the hope in Sudan that people will work out of the pandemic and find a way what's democratic, peaceful democratic transition, unfortunately, as if Sudanese people are destined to believe in a such horrible life and their totalitarianism and dictatorship. However, the people of Sudan are very, very strong people very resilient and they have demonstrated a couple of times. They're their aspirations and their hope that they are looking to go towards democracy unfortunately with the reckless general, the leader of the coup has dashed all that hope. And the games that these people made the last two years out of that December 2018 revolution. Unfortunately, we are back to square one. This school has huge setback for Sudan's progress. And unfortunately, the leadership of the school know nothing but clean. They're all implicated in the works that rule. We have the whole world has been the genocide. The wars in the southern east house of Sudan we were mounting in the blue night and even in the capital of Khartoum when they brutally dispersed the city in that persistent. And they're all implicated. So now once again. We have seen in the last two days that the killing and the bitter arrest of the activists and the government officials from the Houndel's cabinet and yeah, we don't expect anything good out of any military. This is this is expected. Well the mask is off now isn't it. I mean because they're using tear gas. The military has arrested hundreds of people detained them. The military has used violence in the street. The military has killed dozens of people in these protests. At this time the people who are protesting. Am I right have remained peaceful. They are doing peaceful protest. They are not responding with violence. The sad thing to correct me if I'm wrong is that the military is going backward to 2019 you alluded to that. They are just putting people who were officials for Bashir back in office. They're returning to the time of the dictator Bashir. Am I right about that. We, the observers and the students people knew from the day that the CFM have, you know, signed that partnership with the military to form a transitional government. From the day when people have not so the nature of that partnership wasn't going well. However, people they buy the bullet and then for the sake of the transition, they kept going and they're trying here and there. Unfortunately, I'm very am generals of Bashir. They did the same thing. They, they, they violated the declaration for the constitutional declaration. And now they put us back into square one. Fortunately, the students people were very alert. They went to the streets millions of people across the world and now the generals that isolated at home isolated across the world and sadly looks like the general is going ahead with his own plans and despite the resistance of the students people and the rejection from here and there. Unfortunately, the decision the political decision is not in the hands of the, the, the public, the general. Yeah much I said you know we when we look forward a few weeks ago when we discussed this right after, as we discussed it right after the coup. We thought that it would be resolved somehow peacefully. But that hasn't, that hasn't happened and I have two questions for you what is what we know what we know what motivates the people. They want to have a reasonable democratic representative government. They've always wanted that. But what motivates the generals to try to stay in power and use violence to do that. What is what is their agenda here and what are they, what do you believe they hope to achieve. This is a very good question, Jay. I think there's a singular objective for the military leaders and and those who support them by the way. I guess they are, you know, the, the, the military take over was conducted by the army generals but also supported by other parties who joined the government as part of, you know, a political deal, right, a peace agreement. The quote unquote peace agreement in juba the capital of south Sudan in 2020. And so there's somehow support the military to take over in Sudan. And I can tell you just to answer a question. You know, the their prime objective is avoid accountability. These army generals. They take the leaders of the military take over in Sudan, all of them complicit or perpetrated crimes against the people of Sudan, specifically in the region Darfur was from part of Sudan. In the, in South could have fun. And in blue night. And as I mentioned, even in cartoon in the capital cartoon in 2019 during the sit in, they killed more than 127 testers of whom there are more than 40 of them. You know, were actually dumped in the river now. These are the same army generals that are leading the country today. Not to mention other crimes across the country. And so, because they fear accountability, and this is actually one of the demands of the Sudanese people, the demands of the democracy protesters. And accountability and investigations for the crimes in Sudan. And so that's part of reason why they do not want give up power. And I think their only protection is to hold on power, but this is not a sustainable. She was in power for more than 30 years. She was removed by the Sudanese people. Before Bashir, there were a number of governments, right, were removed by people. And so, yes, now they're holding in power to, you know, to avoid accountability, but sooner or later that accountability will happen. Yes, that's the only motivation that they're trying to protect their wealth, because they, you know, they have, of course, maybe this is one of the reasons they have enough wealth, but I think their, their main motive is avoid accountability. You, you would like to see a resolution of this, of course, you would like to see some agreement such as the agreement that was reached before the power sharing agreement between the civilian government and the military government. What are you seeking now what is, what are the activists want, and how do you think they can achieve it and can they achieve it. Thank you so much. What we want is a civilian government that is tasked with the, the specific agenda. And I would make the government as a caretaker government set the state for a transition that will end up in elections, and then the people will choose their own leaders. How to get there. That's a big issue. Are they the military trusted partner. No, not, they're not. They, they left no room for trusting them. People trusted them before. And they, in horrible way they just violated that trust. And now we are in a situation. The streets, the Sudan, the people of Sudan. The demand is one. No partnership with the military because that is not their job than a train to govern that train for specific job. The politicians, the, the, the, the people choose the original leaders, national leaders who can set the path towards a peaceful transition that will pave the way for a democratic transition and put an end to this horrible cycle of who after another who after another. Now, we cannot isolate the internal factor from the, the outside factor, because it is very important also to see the bigger picture, the region of Horn of Africa. So, it's a very fragile region. There are a lot of wars in Somalia wars and now we have war in Ethiopia in Sudan, and also cross the, the red sea region is geopolitical and economic of this region makes it very much interesting. There is so much and all the read the Indian Ocean and the Horn of Africa region and Middle East. All of them are intertwined and so much interest is vested there, and everyone is struggling to influence the political decision in this region. So, we are paying the price of such a situation. What are the best policies that can, you know, avert such situation. It's the interest of everyone in the region. See a peaceful democratic state of Sudan. That is not what's happening right now. A lot of influences and exploitation of this situation in Sudan and we're not able to get there. But it is important to understand the, the, the, the external, the outside dimension with the internal dimension that was mentioned in order to have a clear picture of what's next. But what I see right now, the military generals, they have no political decision in their hand because they are public. And it's only the citizens people that look and can regain the power and regain and reinstate the civilian government. I mean, I would suggest that, you know, this is a regional matter, and goes beyond any particular country. And I guess what that means it's it's not a coincidence that you have trouble in joining neighboring countries, and that there are people crossing the border, you know, having an effect and fomenting unrest, fomenting coup fomenting violence. And I wonder we, you know, we were talking briefly before the show about the connection, if you will, between what's happening in Sudan, and what's happening in right now, Ethiopia. And I suppose, as Ahmed said, you know, we should look at Somalia as well. And you were also mentioning Rwanda. We had a show with Project Expedite Justice concerning Rwanda and the genocide in the early 90s about that. I wonder if you could give me a picture of how this works, of how the trouble in one country affects, you know, other countries, and somehow people cross the border and create a problem in neighboring countries. Can you talk about that for a minute? Sure. I just want to, you know, you know, to emphasize what Ahmed was mentioning of the regional context. Particularly speaking of Sudan, right. As he mentioned, the army generals are not acting on their own. They actually implement regional, you know, agenda. They are being used by regional powers without naming them at this point. Unfortunately, what we see in Sudan is not a unique situation. We have Eritrea, right? It's still as an unstable country. We have European now. We've got, you know, the Tigray region forces and Oamo movement. Again, there's sort of, you know, moving ahead to, you know, to topple the government of Abi Ahmed, European Prime Minister. And, you know, and we have examples in the past, right? And we spoke as you mentioned prior to the show about Wanda and there are many other examples, the Republic of Congo, Central Africa Republic. And so all of these conflicts, of course, you know, they are, as I said, regional and international interest, but in the end, I think, you know, as much as they influence the region in general, but I think for the people, let's say in Sudan or in Ethiopia, because they like political leadership that can lead people, right? We can always blame or internal struggles to foreign, you know, actors and all of that. In the end, I think the people of the specific countries Sudan in this case need to have a strong leadership that can deal with all of these elements, right? Because in the end, we would never end the foreign interest because this is what this is the world we live in. There will always be interest. And so how are we, as a people, going to cope with such complexities? And I have to say in our case in Sudan, so far, we have failed to deal with our domestic issues. And we have failed to come up with policies that were addressed on the foreign interest as well as domestic interest. That's really, I think, speaking of examples that we mentioned prior to the show, Wanda, and I think, you know, it is unfortunate that, you know, what happened in Wanda, you know, continues to happen elsewhere in Sudan today and in Ethiopia what happened tomorrow and there's nothing, you know, actually, we don't do anything to actually stop that. And this is really the unfortunate path, right? And, you know, at this point, I don't want to say I lost hope and faith, but I think the other thing that I can say is that all we can do is to mitigate the the damage that, you know, that is going to happen. And this is very unfortunate because I know that these conflicts of wars are preventable. But then, you know, we're playing politics. And this is primarily in the international community. Just today in the United Nations Security Council, I was just watching a, you know, sort of a session about the situation in Ethiopia, and you can see that even though countries agree that what is happening in Ethiopia is probably going to be a civil war, but then there's a disagreement on how the international community acts. And this is again because of, you know, international interest and this is very unfortunate. Amit, I want to talk to you about that. You mentioned that. And, you know, from this discussion and from the discussions we've had before about Sudan, in the absence of a reasonable, responsible, governing attitude by the military, it looks to me like we're going to have violence here. And the only way this can be resolved is, as in the case of Bashir, where the people take the dictator down. They take him down. And then the people get back in charge again and they create a representative government. But between now where we are right now, and that time, that strikes me that we will have to have violence. You agree? Well, this reminds me of the justification that the FRC put first when they signed the constitutional declaration. They said that this partnership with the military is primarily to avoid civil war and to avoid fragmentation of the state and to help if they pass towards the democratic transition. Well, that's a good agenda. Unfortunately, the very partners that they cohabit together into this transitional government, the one who turned against the past towards transition. They are the one now detaining people ill-lawfully. They are the one killing the very people who hold and people who toppled the Bashir regime. What is the difference? There is nothing other than expect the worst from the generals. What about the international community, Ahmed? You know that it's a mixed bag in Africa because the international community colonialized most of Africa and did not create a representative government culture, if you will, a legacy, if you will. And so when they left, or whatever the process was in leaving, they left some of these countries without representative government that was sustainable. This is a mixed bag. And then you say, well, maybe we need the international community to come back and be more active, the United Nations, the EU, the U.S. What would you expect them to do? What should they be doing? And what are the risks of bringing, of asking them to come back and doing it? I don't need to say that in this situation of Sudan, when the British left Sudan, Sudan was even better off, which is very strange. At least, then had the best civil servant system in the whole continent of Africa. We had huge development projects. We had foundations for a greater development in the Africa and especially in the whole of Africa. Sadly, the interventions of military in the governance has taught that all aside. And every time the military coup took place, it will go back to the square one. It's number one. The region is, like I said, it's an interest for regional and international powers. But they should know that their interest is only safer and secure when there is a stable democratic state, namely in Sudan, because the strategic position of Sudan is a glue for the Horn of Africa, of the north of Africa, towards the south of Africa. There is this strategic source, the Rivanai, which is now there is a competition over the Rivanai, Sudan and Ethiopia. These resources makes the region of Sudan is so interesting. And I remember it's on the 29th, October 29, after following the horrible coup, President Biden said that the situation in Sudan and therefore present a threat to United States national interest and national security. Now, before that having former President Donald Trump. Well, do you want more? Do you want more from the United States? Do you want more from Europe? Do you want more from the United Nations? You know, sanctions haven't really worked. The United States has withheld $700 million to the military government in Sudan. That hasn't worked. They don't seem to care about that money. What would you want Europe and the US to do to help, if anything? First of all, we appreciate the fact that they condemned and deployed the coup and they are called for the re-establishment of the civilian-led government. But that's not enough. What is needed now is to stand strong with the people of Sudan into their quest for civilian government and put those words in action. How would you want? That's what I'm coming. Number one, the military, they are not a partner in the government. They should stay at the back. And we have unlawful militia that is horribly killing people all over the country. This one should be rendered a terrorist organization because they're implicated, they're involved in the massacres in Khartoum. They are involved in genocide. They are involved in U.M.A. everywhere you go. And these are looting the resources of the country, of the nation. And when there's no resources left for the people of Sudan and there is no security, this is a direct threat to international peace and security. It has to be taken seriously. Security council, the European Union, they should outlaw this group. Number two, they should sanction those people, not the people, because the people of Sudan have been under sanctions over 30 years. They lost everything. Now we are trying to come back. And once again, we have these people jumping into the ranks of power and taking Sudan back. This is not acceptable. We understand the interests of other nations and the bilateral relationship that they're building is this a cult. It's not going to, it's not sustainable. If they want a secure interest, sustainable, it has to be established through the people's power. When the people are in power, I'm sure their interest is safer and secure and that will help everybody. But with these gags, no way. You know, one thing with Tassim, you both, you both referred to leadership. And maybe what's missing in at least some of these countries, maybe what's missing in Sudan is modern, progressive, strong, you know, popular leaders were qualified and competent to be leaders. If I had that, maybe that would help, not only in Sudan, but maybe also in Ethiopia, Somalia, Wanda, what have you. And it strikes me that the two of you, Tassim and Ahmed, you are the new generation. You are the ones that understand these issues. You are the ones that understand the need for leadership and what what what you need to have as a leader and what the leader needs to do. What do you think about that? Is there a generation of Africans like you guys who can step into that role and correct this and improve this, not only in Sudan, but everywhere where leadership is necessary. What do you think, Tassim? I 100% agree with that. There's a general rational change in Africa and Sudan is just an example. When you look at the Sudanese protesters today, all of the majority of them are young protesters, right. All of them were born just during the Bashir regime, but they're very resistant to autocratic regime and they're very persistent for their call to democracy and peace. They're very hopeful. And I think this is sort of, it became a trend, right. In Africa in general, there is movement in Algeria, there is a movement in Tunisia, there's a movement in Gambia, there's a movement in Uganda, and other ways. So basically this is really what is helpful, you know, in the continent. And I like to say also in other countries in Latin America or Asia. But in the case of Sudan, I think this is really inspiring to see young people protesting for democracy. This was not the case, you know, two decades ago. And I would like to mention something to what international community can do, America and Europe. I think this is really very important. Because in the end, it's important for the people of Sudan to continue their fight for democracy change. I think they need international support. And number one thing, and I think, I'm already mentioned, is that, you know, the in America, for instance, there's something called Global Magnesty Act. The essence of this act is to designate individuals, right, for economic sanctions, or travel bans, or for asset seizure, right. This is, this is, this would be very effective, right, to sort of limit the movement of the cool leaders in Sudan, let's say. And so if only, you know, acts like Global Magnesty Act sort of globalized, right, not only in America, but also elsewhere, I think that's going to contribute a lot or changes to that. And, you know, as we always say that the military leaders are very strong, they're very powerful, right, they, they, they're, you know, they have the guns, they have the guns, they have the money. And that's what gives them legitimacy. But the will of the people is stronger. And I see that happen, and the termination in the Sudanese people. And so, only if that coupled with, you know, with international assistance to designate individuals, like the leaders of the militia and the army in Sudan as for economic sanctions, travel bans and all of that I think that will contribute a lot to promoting change in Sudan. Thank you, Mutesim. I mean, we're almost out of time and I want to give you the last word here okay. I hope Mutesim doesn't mind if I do that. And then can you talk about, you know, this new generation of leaders, including you and Mutesim and others, who understand what it means to do leadership, who understand what it means to achieve a representative government. Is that happening? Where is it happening? How do you see it unfolding in Sudan? What are your thoughts about? That's very important in the context of many countries, especially Sudan. Today it's not 60s, it's not 70s, it's not 80s in the 90s that where oppressive authoritarian regimes can impose their will against people. People's aspirations are different. Today, people in my hometown, Zalini for example, they are in internet, I mean, they see the whole world. People are talking about climate change, people are talking about virtual classes, people are talking about businesses, multilateral, and all this, we are not part of that. Because our system has just failed us. And not only the system, it's the political elites, those with an old, old beliefs and ideas that does not translate into modern generations. In this case, people at the age of freedom, freedom of movement, freedom of travel, freedom of face and everything, you cannot just impose a will, the way I live, the way I speak, the way I want to be, you know, I have the right to run for office, I have the right to do everything that I want, with totalitarian system and beliefs. Again, it's old, so it is now called people's power, it's not militarist power. Unfortunately, we have to test the people against a gun. And that is not going to work. So the people will go into the street and the generals, they will go to the barracks, and that is coming. The military, the cool leaders, they will not survive, because people are determined, already at the grassroots, well organized, structure their resistant committees, and they're working towards that achieving today was the beginning of the, of the civil disobedience, which was announced by the FFC, and even tomorrow is the second, going to be the second day. The cool leaders, they felt isolated, they failed, they asked so many people to form their government, they couldn't, because people are rejecting it, they're refusing it, because it's the will of the people. So there's no way they can, they can govern, because you cannot govern just like that. And I think the young generation, they strongly feel about it's their future, it is their way of life. So they have identified their agenda, and they are moving forward with it. No one can stand on that pass, because when the will of the people is, the generals' guns will not. So, I believe this is a global, it is a continental, the African young people are coming up, and they want a, see an end to this dark era of coups and civil wars, and you want to, you want to see a democratic free world that they can fulfill their aspirations and leave the government for the betterment of the world. Thank you, Ahmed. We wish you well. We want to see the same thing happen. Thank you, Ahmed. I really appreciate you coming, really appreciate you telling us what's going on, and your aspirations for the future. And of course, we wish you well, we want everyone to wish you well, everyone to support you, and we want you to succeed. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.