 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today I have Atul Bharatwaj with me, who is a defence expert. We are going to talk on the recent conflict emerging in the Korean Peninsula. Welcome, Atul. Thank you. We see a show of strength by US bombers and that very soon US president is going to visit the region. Where do you see the conflict is heading to? The dispute or the conflict or you may call it is not a new thing. It's been on for decades now. Immediately after the end of the Cold War, the first place where even before Iraq, US went into Iraq, their focus was North Korea. Gradually they forgot about North Korea and they started attacking Iraq and then Afghanistan, later Libya and now Syria. But in between, North Korea keeps popping up because of its missile programs, because of its nuclear programs. We heard recently the way President Trump behaved in the United Nations. He actually just brushed aside the UN Charter when he talked about annihilating North Korea from a platform which actually proscribes war. So in that sense and now he is going to visit the Pacific region. His visit starts from November 3rd and it's an 11-day visit. Where he is going to visit South Korea, Japan, China, Philippines, Vietnam. And he is going to attend the ASEAN Summit. He is going to attend also the APEC Summit once he is in the region. When he goes to China, of course, he is going to talk about same freedom of navigation and trade talks would actually be the main focus. But North Korea is the issue that will be in the limelight during the entire visit. Whether he goes to Japan, whether he goes to China or any other part of South Korea, North Korea focus will always remain there during his entire visit. So here what we are going to see is, we are going to see the same usual rants about there. North Korea being a rogue nation, they are having a rogue leader who is pursuing these programs of nuclear testing and missile programs. So the whole question is, how does North Korea see all this? For North Korea, it is a question of sovereignty. North Korea feels threatened. You know, we use the logic of self-defense that US is doing exercises in the Pacific with South Korea and with Japan. It is using its B-1 bombers. It is bringing in its aircraft carriers. It is bringing in its nuclear submarine. So all that is justified in the name of self-defense. That in case a rogue nation like North Korea was to attack, then they are preparing themselves for that eventuality. But what happens is that, but that same logic we do not apply when we think about Kim Il-sung. North Korea also has its sovereignty to protect. North Korea also has its own people to protect. And it is pretty isolated in the entire region. So the entire onus of de-escalation, of denuclearization falls on North Korea. That is why we are not able to find a solution to this. Recently, US did along with Japan and South Korea night aerial bombing exercises in which F-15s from South Korea was used. B-1 bombers of the United States were used. So North Korea sees all these things as preparations for its invasion. So do you think the whole nuclear program of North Korea is more of a question of survival than of an actual threat to the international peace? And will this whole nuclear program lead to the neighboring countries like Japan and South Korea acquiring nuclear weapons? The North Korean nuclear program or North Korean posturing, nuclear posturing if you would say, is giving a lot of, you know, a lot of material to the many lobbies in Japan as well as in South Korea who are clamoring for having their own nuclear weapons. So for them it is beneficial the way North Korea behaves. Because then Japan can say that I want my nuclear weapons. South Koreans are saying that I also want my nuclear weapons because I want my protection. I cannot depend on the United States, which is a declining power. So then since these people are saying that we want our own, but the US is not keen. There is one lobby in South Korea which is saying that US should bring back the tactical nuclear weapons to South Korea. Bush, if you remember, had withdrawn these nuclear weapons from South Korea, tactical nuclear weapons from South Korea in 1992. Now South Koreans want these back or they are trying to pressurize the United States to bring them back. On the other hand, the South Koreans are also playing this game at some level and if they are saying that the US doesn't get these tactical nuclear weapons, then we should have the right to have our own nuclear weapons. So in this context if you see the whole scenario which is building up is very different. It may not be in the US long run, in the US interest. Russia is another player in the game. China of course is a big player bordering South Korea. So all this is happening. The problem with the United States is that it cannot make huge commitments in the region. Commitments involve accepting liabilities. Imagine if North and South Korea were to integrate. In whose interest would it be? Would Japan like it? If the US was to encourage this kind of an integration, China and Japan may be coming together then. So there are many imponderables in this game. So one cannot just view it in terms of Kim Il-sung's, Kim's tweets or for that matter Trump's tweets. There is much more in the game which is being played out. So when we look into the larger narrative, always the liability or the responsibility of de-escalation of whatever is happening in the region falls on North Korea. But what is the role of the regional countries like Japan and China in this? By encouraging United States in the region, they are actually provoking North Korea more and more. If you see this ever since Trump has come, this issue has again become larger than life. North Koreans were testing earlier also but things had not gone that bad. So there is no effort at the moment to de-escalate from the other side. So North Koreans had said that earlier said that they will test a hydrogen bomb in atmosphere which they have not done till now. They have threatened that we will attack Guam with our missiles. I don't know how far they will go. They have not done anything. If you look back into history, North Koreans have not actually done any violence against anyone else. It's the America which has done more violence in the world. China on the other hand is wary of this whole situation because it won't like a problem in its backyard. It won't like to get involved in another major issue which may spoil its relationships with South Korea. Because at the moment if you see China is having decent relationships with South Korea. South Korea does not have that kind because of historical reasons, that kind of relationship with Japan. So all these things have to be balanced in the region. China is a little wary of all these developments. So it has been telling North Koreans to play it down, to play it safe. A lot of Chinese businesses are involved in North Korea. So when sanctions are imposed, it also impacts them. So in that sense China would like a more peaceful region. But on the other hand if you look at it the other way, all these powers are actually encouraging United States to take on more liability in the region. And the United States is unable to commit that kind of responsibility. If United States is not able to do that, that simply means that it is declining. And as it begins to decline, more and more powers shift away from it. America begins to become redundant in the region. When we talk about North Korea, there's always this perception of a crazy young guy ruling the country. With Trump being the President of the United States, there is a balance. In North Korea we have a crazy young guy and in the United States we have a crazy old guy. But Donald Trump is going around and threatening everyone with military action including Venezuela. Do you think that with Trump openly threatening North Korea at a UN platform and undermining the UN Charter, United States is a bigger threat to international peace? In the United States we've all seen is a problem for international peace. We've seen it from 90s onwards and even before that it was never a peaceful power. It's always been continuously been engaged in military action and massive military action which is destroying nations. It has destroyed Libya, it has destroyed Iraq, it has destroyed Afghanistan, it has destroyed Syria. You name it and it's in the very recent past that these things have happened. These have all been televised wars in fact. The manner in which Syria has been dismantled, disintegrated. So if we see all these issues then the world, the international community needs to actually start viewing the behavior of America. Needs to question it more, needs to challenge it more. Which is not happening because a lot of media is controlled by them. So they don't let the American positions being challenged. Now a UN President, President of the United States can stand in United Nations and talk about annihilating another country is a big issue. So he, see recently you've heard the news that United Nations has withdrawn from UNESCO. So he is dismantling the order, the old order. But we are not sure what is going to be how just the new order is going to be. What is most important is to place restrictions on American power. Which over the years has developed into a colossal power which can change regimes, which can threaten sovereignty, which can disrupt peaceful trade supplies. It's both soft and hard power are actually threatening the entire world. It is, it can generate arms race at will in various regions. It can change currency fluctuations it can create at will. So all these issues are now very prominent and the world needs to do something about it. If it wants it can approve nuclear weapons of Israel. If it wants it doesn't say a word about the Pakistani nuclear weapons. But when it comes to North Korean nuclear weapons it becomes very vociferous. So the selective use of rules in the world is a problem. Thank you Atul for speaking to us. Thank you so much.