 Why would it be inappropriate? Well, a happy Veterans Day isn't for a day. Well, I guess it is originally Armistice Day, right? From when they signed the Armistice for World War I. So in that sense it's happy, but I think a Veterans Day, not as a happy day, but as a, you know, like a day to remember all the challenges of wars and whatnot. So for me, it doesn't feel appropriate to say happy, but maybe somebody else has a different perspective on that. Doug, you're a resident historian. What do you think about happy, happy Veterans Day? Well, I agree with you. It's got very mixed connotations. It's good to have survived, but it's terrible that we had these wars. So having veterans that you can't tell whether it's honoring one or the other. It's already been late. I was trying to get the X-Wing to start up. I think something's not working. I can't take risk machines, are they? They're not reliable. I think that's the problem. I think that's why the Rebel Alliance has always had trouble. It's like, you can't get parts, the parts break. Nobody knows how to fix them. You need like eight fingers to hold a certain part in place and that's not working. Designed by committee. David Brin says the problem is that Lucas is fixated on World War I fighters. Makes sense. Interesting. World War I. So like two wings kind of? B. Well, yeah. And also the relatively open cockpit and the dog fight. He's got this weird connection between the very earliest form of air combat and lasers and all the quasi-modern stuff. Lasers. Yeah. Yeah. And then ironically, they studied lots of World War II dog fight footage to do the dog fights in space in Star Wars, which where the physics of space are entirely different because there is no air. Right. Yeah. Yeah, Brin has quite a rant on this. And he also has a rant against Yoda and against basically the values, the ethic of Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's got some good points. I was surprised when I listened to it, but a big factor is Star Trek is naval. It's a ship. The ship carries the culture with it. Star Wars is heroes and superheroes. And so Star Wars is inherently undemocratic. Star Wars, Star Trek, even though the captain is running everything, he kind of has to, he has to draw upon everybody, all the resources in order to make good decisions and pull himself out of the kind of trouble that they get into. That's really, if you have links to Brin's essay, and if this is from Brin's essay, I'd love to add that in. Okay. Well, I heard it actually in a clubhouse room. He was live saying this, but I'm pretty sure that there is an essay, which I can get a link to and I will send it to you. Yeah, I found it. It's surprising and enlightening. And this, yeah. Here's another way that Lucas was also interested in early 20th century. Take a look at the two figures here. Metropolis. Metropolis. Maria from Metropolis. Gee, that's an original idea, isn't it? Yeah. It was all derivative. I mean, once you've invented metal robots that go danger will Robinson danger. This army Navy split is really interesting. If I, if I may just tell a short tale. In the pre-modern British aristocracy, kind of the, the, the Pax Britannica, rule Britannia, Britain, the Navy was aristocratic. And the army was sort of meritocratic and a market, meaning you were born into a Navy family. You were put on board a Navy ship. If you were a male in the family, chances are you got put on board and fighting ship at age nine as a midshipman, whose job it was to stay alive and eventually become an admiral. Because if you live long enough, you'd probably become an admiral. Unless you were just completely incompetent or you betrayed the crown. And then in the army, you could buy and sell commissions. So you could buy yourself a sergeancy and a colonel C. And at some point that Peters out at some point in the army, you can no longer buy your commissions, but there was a market. There was an open market for commissions. And you just sort of upgraded through purchases, which is kind of weird and interesting. And then on a land battle. You can put observers on the hills nearby who named the battle and declare the winner and observe and see who shook their duty and all that kind of stuff. So you can kind of watch a land battle and report on it. So on a naval battle, it's halfway around the world. You're not going to hear the outcome of the battle for three months. How do you know they're acting in the crowns in the crowns benefit? And so the Navy had a whole bunch of very strict rules. The British Navy in particular that made this to help make Britain's Navy, the dominant Navy of the seas for 150 years. And that included, they had to attack from Windward. Everybody know what Windward and Leward is? Windward is where the wind is coming from. Leward is the other side, the shelter from the wind. If you're on the Leward side of a building, you're trying to block the wind. If you have, if you have, if you must attack from Windward, Windward gauge, that means you're being blown into the enemy. You can't escape. And the French and the Spanish fleets and admirals had instructions to attack from Leward. And so they could, they could break free and go. And if you can't escape, you're going to train your gunners a little better. And so, so English gunnery was more accurate. They were just better at it. And then Allison, I'm going to mute. Oh, I don't know if I can meet you, but Allison, I'm hearing some of us from your, your line. Thank you. And then they had to maintain line of battle, which means like elephants nose to tail when they attack. That was just the way they attacked because it's really easy to tell who falls out of line and then falling out of line. And in fact, not pursuing the enemy, even when you had won a battle, but not pursuing the enemy to try to destroy them was reason for being court-martialed and having your ranks stripped. They had to be insanely aggressive. And then also an onboard ship, the captain, like is God. Everything the captain says matters. There's all kinds of really bad discipline. It's a crazy thing. The age of sales is crazy. I'm going to get acquainted with the age of sale, read the Aubrey, a mature and novels by Patrick O'Brien. Sorry for the long regression, but the whole, the whole, the whole army versus Navy thing is also interesting in Japan, but I don't know nearly as much about it, but the age of sale in Britain is super, super interesting. No worries, Allison. Thank you. So we're going to talk about the metaverse, which one could consider an age of sale simulation to be maybe part of the metaverse just trying to make a bridge there. And I finished watching a ready player one last night. So I feel prepared to talk about the metaverse in some sense, because I feel like I was just in a movie that goes way deep into like what it is, how it works, who invents it, who gets to own it, all those kinds of things. And I'd love to just pause for a second and see, Wendy, I think you proposed metaverse. And if you had any opening thoughts and see where we want to take the conversation because we're this Thursday, we're doing a topic and our topic is metaverse. Sure. I'm really just going to pull from our last conversation. I had proposed it because it had come up a couple of times in the conversation. I was particularly interested in talking about what we feel the term meant before and how we feel it's been appropriated and what that kind of means for us now in terms of how we do we reframe it. And so just curious what emerges from starting from that platform. Love that. So has the term been appropriated? What does that mean? Anyone else want to jump in? I think a few people feel strongly that the term is now kind of sully, dissoiled, stained. Please speak. So metaverse comes from science fiction, 80s science fiction. Neil Stevenson, I stole their ash, right? Coined a thing called metaverse and it looks not unlike ready player one. I think Stevenson's was a little bit more rough and a little bit more diverse. But along with, you know, Stevenson maybe coined the term and I think actually there's an interesting, interesting story about the coining of the term. But the general idea of it has been around for a while. You know, that there's a kind of virtual reality place that you can interact with other humans in virtual reality rather than actual reality or augmented reality or whatever. So if you were in second life, you were participating in kind of the idea of a metaverse and second life people. Second life was a really early, you know, you can be a person or some kind of non-person entity and wear different clothes and have a room and meet with other people and stuff like that. So the idea has been around forever. Lots of different people contributing to it, thinking about it, you know, making it a way of thinking about stuff. And I guess maybe an analogy for us at this time in history is to think of the web. People used to say, oh, there's going to be, you know, going back to Vannevar Bush or Ted Nelson or Doug Engelbart. They were talking about this place where there was lots of information. It was all linked together and there was going to be a plethora of this stuff that like you couldn't even imagine how much information you could have at your fingertips and cross-reference and link and stuff like that. So that was a way of describing the web before we had the web. Then the web happened and it happened in a way that kind of makes sense and kind of doesn't make sense. There are things about the web that, you know, the science fiction writers didn't really guess. There's broken things about it. There's good things about it. There's kind of a path of development from, you know, where we were to where we got to. Metaverse is kind of the same thing. You know, we've been talking, science fiction authors have been talking about virtual reality and second worlds and things like that forever, 40 years. So that's kind of where we are. It's odd to me that Zuckerberg is apparently fascinated by the idea of, you know, he used to dream about this stuff in high school, probably having read a bunch of science fiction and not having enough of a social life or something. So now we get to this point and it's like, oh my God, we should have this virtual reality thing where everybody's interacting and oh, by the way, you know, I've already built this thing that feeds on human interaction and emotionality to make a hyper structure thing that I think is really cool and wonderful. Everybody's interacting and everybody's connected to each other and everybody's like, you know, so if you, I'm sure Zuckerberg is happy with Facebook the way it is, but if you kind of lift and shift it to the side, if you look at it from the other direction, you're gone. Facebook is the thing that kind of took over a big chunk of culture and worked it in bad ways because it's a centralization for us. Algorithms and the same, you know, constructs. Everybody ends up, it's kind of like the United States except on steroids and going, you know, a thousand times faster or something like that smashes all of culture into if it fits in Facebook, it's culture. If it doesn't fit in Facebook, it's not culture, you know, it's like, what's up with that? So it's interesting at this point in Facebook's evolution for Zuckerberg to say, oh my God, we're going to have something called the metaverse and it's beautiful and wonderful and it's going to be everything. And, you know, so to me, it sounds like Facebook 2.0 or Facebook 3.0, however you want to start counting, you know, it's not super interesting to me. It's, it's, it sounds dangerous. It sounds centralizing. It sounds, um, it sounds enclosed, enclosures, inclusive. It sounds like he's grabbing, um, some cool ideas and stuff like that, but then saying, okay, well, the metaverse now. And, and he's got a lot of weight and power. He's got hundreds of billions of dollars, um, and billions of subscribers behind him. So when he says, or his team, he and his team say, well, we're going to have the metaverse and it's going to be a Facebook metaverse. You know, it's like, yeah, it's that, that feels to me a lot like if in, uh, if in 1995, um, GE said we're going to have a web and it's going to be the GE web or, you know, or we're going to have, uh, the AOL web and there's not going to be other webs. There's just going to be the AOL web. And it's like, well, I don't know if that's the, you know, that's the way that I don't want to play that game. I don't want to play that centralization game. I don't want to play with, you know, one person leading a small team out of one country. In the world, um, who happens to be the pinnacle of capital, capitalism deciding, you know, how we're going to play the metaverse game or how we're going to play the web game or how we're going to. So, um, it feels like stealing to me, stealing from culture and in a way that doesn't even acknowledge or understand what it's stealing or what it's doing in the same way that Facebook has done that already for a couple of years, you know, it's, it's dual elections. It steals national governments. It's, it steals culture. It eats them and it, and it doesn't give back. Or it doesn't give back very well. Um, I love what you just said, Peter. And it's funny how much it resonates with ready player one. Um, because the protagonist, Parsifal and ready in ready player one understands the inventor of the Oasis deeply. And that's how he wins the game. It's a bit of a plot spoiler, but really I'm not ruining for you. I think it's pretty much like the obvious. And our friend Nicole Czarow asked if, if, uh, you know, who is zuckerberg in ready player one, you know, which character would you be? Yeah. Exactly. And then the dude who is the peak of the enterprise that wants to own the Oasis, it doesn't understand any of this kind of stuff and is trying to own it. And it's very zucky. So, and I think it was Nicole's comment that made me say, I must watch ready player one now. So anyone want to add on riff layer in John, please. Sure. I'm in a noisy Oakland cafeteria, having breakfast. So if it gets too loud, let me know and I'll. I'll mute. Great. So there's a couple, a couple possible structures of the conversation. One structure would be to say, what are the big alternatives that are in play. In other words, there's already a player there and they're already moving towards a different kind of metaverse than, than Zucks. And then the other one is what are the theoretical ones that are kind of in play but they would need a tremendous boost in terms of resources and energy to go so among the players among the alternative versions of the metaverse is the game based one. You know, the using something like unity. Basically people start with a game environment since they've already solved a lot of the problems of how do you represent things. And so there's a whole line of development going there. And I know Jack thought carefully about the evolution of game thinking and the possibilities of changing of leveraging game thinking for very positive social outcomes. I would also strongly recommend the movie free guy, if you haven't seen it. It's a very interesting plot twist, kind of a reverse Grand Theft Auto, in which a non playing character, a robot essentially becomes conscious and starts doing the opposite of the Grand Theft Auto model starts doing good things for people and then that goes viral, and it's like Ted lasso and cyberspace Ted lasso and cyberspace. That's so crazy. Definitely you want to see that movie, but now now there's the other one. The other important one is a whole bunch of small distributed web distributed metaverse efforts. And you would want to include self sovereign identity as a necessary component if you were going to have first of all you got to start with interoperability. You got to say, yeah, you can have your metaverse but the only way people will come in is if they can leave that they can leave with all their data. Well that implies a whole lot of things that implies interoperable wallets interoperable data, things, a huge amount of infrastructure work has to be done. Some people interested in self sovereign identity and related topics identity are working on those things. They're very comparatively extremely under resourced. So it would take quite a natural from a business point of view a business unnatural act for the distributed open interoperable version of the metaphors to emerge. I don't think regulation blocking the current version would be enough to cause the distributed what to emerge. I'm still looking for ways in which that might happen either a benevolent billionaire. You know something that puts enough juice behind the interoperability standards that it can happen. Just a little footnote. There was a point I believe that Microsoft was saying it was going to have its own wallet. And they were talked to by the self sovereign people and they were convinced that they should not have a, you know, if they were going to do anything like a wallet. It was going to be interoperable. And you needed you needed to accept people who didn't, you know, hook up with other Microsoft apps, and I need to allow people to leave and go to another app. And they. This is not my information is now 18 months old so it might have changed since then but they agreed mostly for market reasons they realized they were in a relatively weak position in this space. And they needed to be better be interoperable in order to have even a total that may have changed since then. So that's just some outline to, to take the discussion forward. One of the things before I pass the grace. One is, thank goodness we have so many newly minted billionaires because there's it increases the odds that even one of them might actually be beneficent and grant us the funds to go build out a good world like this that's that really relieves me a lot. And then the second thing is, I think some people won't want to enter a metaverse that doesn't have self sovereign I need a bunch of other stuff, but Facebook and Instagram and all these things kind of prove the point that a whole bunch of people really doesn't care what happens their data or doesn't seem to and they were willing to pour their entire lives private info into these platforms with little hesitation because they're all in there right. So I think that's interesting. And then, and then there's this interesting part of Zuckerberg's pitch about the metaverse that says, it has to be diverse it can't be this one big thing. This is a poison pill he's carrying into his own premise, which he seems to be trying to say that this thing does need to be distributed and have some sovereignty, but it's like, you kind of know that it can't if he's building it, and it won't if he's building it. Right. And it's like, hmm, I wonder how that's going to play out. Grace then class. I hope my internet's good enough. I'm getting some. We hear you well. Go ahead. Okay, good. I'm getting like I find myself thinking completely different things from what's been said so far. So for me, Facebook is a dying company. And this is like this kind of like weird kicking and screaming thing that they're doing now Facebook may have some foothold in developing countries where it's the only way for people to access the internet. But in the Western world, it's just diving in popularity. And I found that since stopping, since I stopped using it, I miss it, not even one bit at all. And so it's this kind of aging thing and this dislike so when I think about the metaverse it's really, you know, like kind of a bizarre thing that Zuckerberg is calling it metaverse because it's not the metaverse. The gaming community has had multiple metaverses for a very long time, as has been pointed out. And it's, you know, in terms of, in terms of like self sovereign identity, I mean, the thing that's coming up really fast right now, like insanely fast is these play to earn games in the NFT world. I see it because I write a lot of white papers and I just see where the money's going. I mean there's billions of dollars in, I think there's $3 billion market cap in that market right now. And these companies are raising millions of dollars 10 to $20 million on these ICOs in the area of play to earn games. Now for those of you who don't know what this thing is it's this bizarre weird thing that started with something called I guess more or less the big one that's the infinity. And basically if these people in low cost countries, the Philippines is kind of the leader in this, where these play these games for speculative cryptocurrency and they trade it out, and they're earning 15 to $30 a day which is a living wage there by playing these games and speculative cryptocurrencies. And these are adventure games and online role playing games. And, and the, there's a whole bunch of weird business models but mostly it's speculative cryptocurrency and business models which are going to be not sustainable but the millions of dollars that are being invested right now into other play to earn games to create these metaverses I'm seeing some really interesting stuff coming in there. And second life is a perfect example of somewhere where people were able to actually earn a living doing these in game metaverse crafts and where they were multi as I'm going to say were but I mean of course that second life still exists, where people create multiple worlds and these multiple different kinds of of businesses and the businesses are all kinds of things that you would see in the real world it's like oh do you want to magic shield will go down to the blacksmith and the blacksmith will is make shields and you can buy a shield off the blacksmith, there's all kinds of whatever it is there's a there's a mine that mines for whatever materials you need to build your home and all these kinds of things that look like real life but you know whatever and then you can build your museum and in charge people entrance. These universes are coming online as and people are making livings at them and have always I mean e gaming is bigger than soccer at this point in terms of the audience size. So this, the metaverse is out there and it's for in here in this box for talking to each other, and it's incredibly multifaceted with multiple worlds and real people earning real money, and it's very. It ranges from super interesting very cool fun stuff that you know you're like yeah that's kind of a way make living, you know that's to stuff that's like the matrix where all you're doing is sitting there all day and going like this, so you can make enough money as a living person and then you feed yourself and then you go back and do this whole day. And so it's this weird multifaceted thing so I don't think about Facebook as a potential player in this they can do whatever they want as far as giving a name but I don't see them as a potential player and in the actual multiverse. I think Facebook monthly usage dropped off a little bit for the first time ever last month. I think they're still growing like gangbusters so so they don't, their numbers don't look like a dinosaur on its way out, you know off the playing field. But I get what I get what you're saying and I get that there's sort of a feeling in the air about that but. But thank you and you've put a whole bunch of other lively and lovely topics on the table, including these damn. They should be called pay to play to earn games because you don't just sort of walk in and start playing a game and like it's like, and there's a whole bunch of games online where it's free to play. And that means you install the game you create a character you start playing and then you do whatever it is and usually with those games, you buy with real dollars some in game currency and you buy gear and decorations for your avatars and superpowers or whatever. That's been known for a while. These new ones that are that are working online and cryptocurrencies, you actually have to own some cryptocurrency to play and that means you have to buy the cryptocurrency to get in. But now there's there's kind of companies like Axie University that actually will lend you that currency so you can earn your way to get the currency to buy to play to whatever it's really a little more it's sort of more complicated than than just played I think play to earn to me. It's a really facile misleading moniker for this for this category. In some ways so. Mr Margaret, but you're talking about you want to jump back in but I would say, I would say those rent seeking behaviors are going to disappear. Right, those are kind of rent seeking just friction that's just early friction. It's just early friction like will lend you some money, and then you pay us back at rent seeking interest but that's going to disappear really quickly, I think. Yeah, so I just had an introduction to this thing. We're working with we're working with a vendor from Spain, who is trying to get into the North American market with an ingenious type of crane mill. They can mill rise and cranes and all sorts of seats, and then turn that in mix that into some really interesting products. So, I mean I didn't. You got sent this box here and I gave it to my son that can you figure this out for me and he came back and he showed me how to play games on it and I'm going wow cool stuff but pretty the graphics are just enormous I mean incredible and I mean it's stunning stuff. So then, then I found out no that was really a purpose for getting this sent over because they wanted us to visit their factory in Barcelona. And so we onboarded now and and then you link all up to get a password you link up, and then you ended through a portal into their domain. And they have set up what I think is going to be the trade show of the future in enormous huge hall, you know you could walk around in it, you get an avatar to menu when you first join. And then we went into the machine room and you could literally climb into the machine and look at it from the inside I mean it's just stunning. I don't know how that how that all works. But then of course, I'm thinking, why are we, why are we getting into this right now because we're going into a community that is struggling with homelessness, you know, with people who don't have enough food to eat and with farmers who have to figure out how to rejuvenate their soil and what to do and so I'm like, this is, this is just, I mean I couldn't even comprehend their marketing approach. Am I supposed to give this to a farmer. I mean, what are these people supposed to do with that. So, so there is, I think there is really they got themselves all be dazzled with this technology. But not really, not really link up with the Nate Mr people that they're trying to connect with. So by default, they're going to skim the top layer of the economy again, without reaching into you know where the need is where you really need to have make Yeah, so I can see kids being absolutely mesmerized. I mean my wife's first reaction was I'm so glad that wasn't around when we were raising our children, you know, because my son Michael would have just been lost in this. And then but economically I mean I can see, you know, you can have engineering meetings you can literally stand in front of a Myrosport right and do stuff while you are in this in this created space. So yeah I mean you can stop it it's out there. But I don't know that it's that it will solve the kinds of problems that we are that we are right now dealing with. Love that class thank you. Anyone want to riff on where we are. So we're done with the conversation this is awesome I'm so glad like in 32 minutes we we dealt with the metaverse can jump in. And I really agree. I just saw an article I did not read about somebody saying you know the metaverse could make reality disappear and it's like, we have a planet that we depend upon for all of our life support that's being ignored in many ways and degraded in many ways and there's all this energy being put into, we'll just create a virtual reality everything is fine. And so that seems to me to be a little bit of a priority problem. I've long thought that these billionaires trying to like get off this rock because we've broken this rock like the motivation for mosque and visas and all those a lot of their motivation is, we've already ruined this planet if we don't quickly execute on humanities mandate and populate other rocks, we're going to extinct ourselves. And so I kind of get that. And then I just realized in what you said that another path out is to upload ourselves so that when the planet is in fact uninhabitable for humans. So if machines can can be self sufficient and collect enough energy to build and replicate themselves, then we'll merely be, you know, we'll merely be interacting in them in the metaverse or many metaverses and, and then all bets are off with what current reality is like and that's a different state patch right then both of which are cynical and terrible alternatives to like trying to fix our broken planet. And then the amount of energy being wasted in this effort is really tremendous. And like, like, it's one other angle here for me is long ago, Xerox Park traded money for time. So Xerox Park bought everybody every one of their white collar workers they bought them a megapixel display a million pixels on screen. And a megabit of memory, which was maybe it was a megabyte probably a megabyte of memory which is memory was computer memory was really expensive this is in the 70s I think, and a megabit connection to each other through an early network, so that they could talk to each other. And it was a, it was like, who needs all of this like like early computers weren't that powerful didn't have big big bitmap displays and all that. And from that trading of time for money we have the interface that we're using today, because we can draw a really nice sense that connect the windows and mouse and trackpad interface that we're using right now to those experiments back in the day, and those experiments were wasteful. Similarly, when you when you're designing a windows interface, there's a piece of your computer that's a little loop and internal fast loop going, where's the mouse, where's the mouse, can I follow the mouse that a click that somebody click the mouse, where's the mouse, where's the mouse, and that little loop sort of owns what happens in cascades afterwards because once you click a whole bunch of other program code, you know comes into being, it's incredibly wasteful of the cycles but, but otherwise your computer be sitting there idle. And so here I look at expensive gear that has to do a tremendous amount of work. The little lidar if you're going to map a room to do augmented reality, you know, the work your your little goggle and chips and whatever are doing to try to map what your what room you were in so you can reliably walk through it. Never mind track the fact that four humans just passed through it or that somebody moved to chair. But just just the work to map a room is a lot of compute power for arguably zero benefit for anybody in particular somebody's going to play just sit there and play a game for a while. There's a tremendous amount of resources wasted. And I'm like, there are times when a waste of resources are really really useful and good and predict and lead us into a new world. And there are times when a waste of resources is just that I think a waste of resources, and my big fear right now, from all the things I see that I sent everybody a link to a new TEDx talk from a guy who's wearing a headset the whole time has his controllers in his hands. He's, he's got some buddies over with him in a virtual mockup of the stage, and there's like six people in avatars over off to the side. And at no moment during the talk, does he excite anyone about the Metaverse or use the device that he's wearing. We don't see his face because he's got a God for sake and mask on. It's, it's awful, like like the talk was awful. And I was just like, wow, this is totally not a sales pitch to get people into the Metaverse, except for the tone of excitement in his voice. He was on fire about this thing that's taking over our world. I was talking, you know, talking about a lot of these things. So, so I'm, you know, I've been wrong about a couple of these things I was like why who needs a camera on cell phones. And seriously, that just must be the, it must be the carriers trying to sell us more minutes of what, you know, cellular connectivity because video is so consumptive of bandwidth. And it turns out now that we all have high definition cameras like on these little slabs of unobtainium that we carry all the time has changed how human events happen it's changed how we, a whole bunch of stuff like it's changed how we record our lives. That's wasteful but wow. Right. So I don't know, waste ring for anybody. The it's an interesting argument and and I find it a little bit harder if you refute it with a straight face but but I think there really is a pony there I think VR and AR and things like that are real and they're useful. It's more like, you know, it's more like the cell phone thing, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of waste in here but there's a lot of utility to, you know, so the fact that we have GPS is was kind of a weird, you know, it's weird that we've shrunk GPS is or the you know, the accelerometers camera from airbags and you know cameras why would you put a camera and in your phone and all that kind of stuff. The convergence of this device is multiplicative in a way that you wouldn't have guessed a priori right. Being able to do navigation or being able to call for help or I don't know being able to have the finger world of information my fingertips in a little slab. It's a change that in, you know, 1990 we would have 1980. It's like, why would you squeeze all that into a little box and waste. It's not. So I think AR and VR is the same thing. So, arguing that metaverses is pointless because we can't imagine what AR VR is going to bring to us I think it's the wrong direction. I'm not there. So I totally agree with what you just said. And I think there's a pony there also. And I will make a further claim that open global mind as a quest and a journey is in fact an exploration of a useful kind of metaverse that could be layered on to reality as all augmented reality could be an idea space that we co inhabit and try to solve the problems and share stories about what works, like the story that Klaus was sharing. I'm on a different mailing list where I was just reading about Willie Smiths, who figured out a way to grow crops and fix, you know, recreate forestry in the middle of I think Borneo, a whole bunch of interesting but like there's world solutions out there to be done. And instead, we're busy creating metaverses that are about hey can I buy that sweater that she's wearing who just blocked by. And to me that there's like there's totally a pony there somewhere. Or worse, we have people who got shoved indoors by the pandemic and can't make their living the normal way which is selling cigarettes to cars that pass by on the road. And so are playing Axie infinity and making, you know, a little bit more than they could make turkey on Amazon Turk, which hurts my soul by sitting here getting carpal tunnel playing the game. And by the way, I think, and I'm not sure about this, I think that when some people make enough money to, you know, to pay the rent or to buy some food, there's some people in Axie infinity who are losing money. And who like I don't, I don't think there's an abundance economy where there's just like everybody's making money. I think there's you beat people in a contest that's what Axie infinity is it's a very simple contest between these little axolotl avatars. There's losers. And there's money at stake in it it's a form of gambling. So, so it's also like the stupid irony that Native American tribes make money because mostly they have casinos. It's like, God, damn it couldn't we figure out any other way to get some funds into Native American tribes. So, so I'm my soul is hurting when I see these these sort of this junk because I see the pony that peaches described, and it looks like the unicorn with sparkles and wings. Like, like, it's in there someplace. And for me, this OGM quest we've been on is a quest towards some of that pony in some sense, but a very, very, very different one materially and virtually from the one we're seeing go ahead count. I rewatched fantastic fun guy the other day. My neighbor has it just got a brand new TV I high def blue rail that was this amazing film and I'm thinking. There's an example for me of how AR and VR could be used for really great education of understanding natural systems and how we can start to use natural systems principles and practices to heal and restore and regenerate the degraded ecosystems that weren't happening. And it seems like the driving force behind AR and VR is consumption. It's the same thing that's always driven capitalism like how are we going to get people to buy into this and spend money on it instead of how can we use this as an educational tool to help heal the world. Kind of like what we do with, you know, the television was recognized a long time ago as a tremendously powerful educational medium and yet it shifted over to mostly advertising and sales. So, Pete, I'm curious what this is just the driving. I well, AR and VR hasn't done that thing that TV did that that went, you know, into it's just a big, a big time sink. AR and VR is it's it's it's in between it's still in flux. And there are a bunch of people doing, you know, let's let's cure PTSD by strapping unit into a VR Rick, you know, so it's giving me some mushrooms. Probably probably that too. The so. So AR and VR is still like, it's still a little infant, it hasn't grown up to be a waste of time it's the money going into it. A lot of it is, is spent on good things not bad things education or getting people together virtually or you know whatever. If somebody if somebody with his name started with a Z said, oh wow, I'm going to spend $10 billion on VR and make it the make it to the my vision. That's a place where it's like, okay, maybe that's, you know, maybe that's maybe it's starting to go maybe the baby is going to grow up the bad way it just got kidnapped by, you know, by somebody, and it's going to be raised poorly. And there's a really interesting question we started with which was, it has the metaverse been fully appropriated are we doomed to Zuckerberg vision because of the mass and scale and wealthy and wealth of this enterprise. Or are there many metaverses and are they just competing and how might that play out etc etc I think that that's a really important at the stage. It's, it's, it's both of those right it's not either one of those there are many like the great says there's many metaverses already, and they're thriving wonderful, you know, amazing things. And we're not going to end up with only Zuckerberg metaverse, we're just not it's somewhere in the middle. And the thing that bothers me about Zuckerberg and saying, hey, I'm going to spend $10 billion on this and I'm going to keep spending $10 billion on it probably every year until, you know, I own. You know, just like I own 2.3 billion people's computers right now I want to own 2.3 billion faces, you know, and their eyes and their ears and stuff like that right. That's what he's saying. And whether or not he gets to 2.3 billion, the fact that he's saying that and he's going to, to try to get a billion as fast as possible. And the fact that Facebook is already a nation state size thing when it goes to talk to, you know, the president of the United States or the UN or something like that. Because, you know, conceptually, I mean, the politics doesn't work out this way quite, but when he's got 2 billion people on his platform, and they're thinking the way Facebook makes them think that, you know, that isn't a thing that even the US can do. Facebook does that kind of, you know, let's change 4 billion people's minds, but the way it does that is the kind of the industrial area, you know, the 60s to 80s way to do that you invent McDonald's and you you drop in, you know, with World Bank and you drop in, you know, the U.S. G E capital and G whatever. That's the way that we used to do it. Facebook has taken all of that strength that something like the US used to influence the world with and suck it into one company and do that in a few years and, you know, five or six decades. So, when when Zuckerberg says there shall be a metaverse and it shall be the Facebook metaverse. It's not that I worry that we're only going to end up there. It's that I worry that in the spectrum, the center of gravity just shifted significantly towards that and and it's and that's not a good thing it's just not I love that like it's close then Michael and I just want to point out that the monthly average users of Facebook is larger than the entire populations of China and India come by and and yet Facebook is not treated in any sense as a country which is I think a big and interesting issue that needs to be covered close then Michael. The technology is continuing to advance right I mean the technological development is just on a track that will move forward. What is what is completely lacking is the imagination of what you can do with it and like Ken was pointing out, you know, towards using this in a in a way that is constructive, you know, healing and so on. So the first impetus is how much more money can be squeezed out of this thing we can sell games to everyone, right, where the real need is in places where you don't have billions of revenue instantly available. So the need particularly here in the United States but really at the global level is to engage in the in the social systems that we refer to as base of pyramid. There's no money in the base of pyramid but there is a lot of problems there, which which bring the entire pyramid down if you don't fix it. So Zuckerberg has like see a whole vision because this could have been introduced to show kids for example how climate change is impacting us you know how the science works I mean there could be so much exciting visualization of things that we not try to tell kids. I mean in my last webinar, that was the farm the four community food system. I had an exchange with Sophie who was one of the founding members of the menus of change initiative is Harvard. And she she but she was saying, you have children today, you know the greater sunburn generation on fire about climate change, clueless about agriculture, food, you know and the impact they are having with their own behavioral lack of behavioral adjustments. So you could use a tool like this that brings millions even billions of people into it. And instead of some stupid game and my son was furiously moving around here shooting things down with with this game right. I mean, instead of using this for for this urgently needed education that that we need to do to bring out into communities we're creating more confusion more havoc with this and this is really where Zuckerberg. I think it's devoid of empathy devoid of understanding about you know social systems and and our own survival of collectives with collective survival really depending on bringing people into a level of understanding. Thank you class thank you very much love that Michael then Stuart. I want to bring in something we've been talking about a little bit in the chat that circles back to what class mentioned early about why, why he had the VR goggles and kind of set me on the on the thought that virtual travel. And that is what virtual travel is going to demand that people in exotic locations. Don cameras and exoskeleton so that they can be avatars for travelers in the first world in their living rooms to go wherever and turn a corner and with whichever way. And people is was posting a link to the Amazon Explorer thing which is is a more positive thing when he was mentioning, you know, giving people who wouldn't otherwise have an access to nature and access to nature and different places. And then, then I was just thinking about this play on Meta slash Facebook's part that okay they've got 2 billion. What's that 2.4 billion monthly average users if that's the number you're looking for. Yeah, well I mean I was just doing. At least 2.8 maybe three. Okay. It's my sound, not coming through so well Michael you're fine your son is doing fine. He was being reciprocated. Yet his little mute icon was. And something just cataclysm your virtual your virtual world just got corrupted. My virtual world. But what I was going to say is that see you can you can see the man behind the curtain or the world behind curtain. Crazy. A munchkins that sorry, drilled my train of thought slightly. Oh, so he's got these, you know, 2.8 billion. Virtual potential avatars all over the world, who can be, you know, the, the Google street map for mapping the the virtual version of the actual world, and whatever kind of activities they are willing to share in a camera's way can feed into a, you know, potentially identical metaspace that that, you know, travel can be sold in that, you know, all kinds of things can happen in, and there's lots of wonderful and horrific experiences that you can imagine people virtually having going to that network of contributors and and yet the X rated industry will totally figure it out. You know, porn is always the pioneer. A lot of these things. Yeah. One thing I want to add in before I pass the mic to Stuart, are you done? Sorry. Before passing the mic to Stuart, I want to throw one more fish on the table, which we haven't really talked about that much, but it's the blurring of reality and it's like, that Tongan dancer about to perform a native dance and it's very likely to be your Ukrainian neighbor just down the block and not Tongan, not nothing. I like you don't know who's behind the artifacts, where they live, where they're hosted, what connection they have to authenticity. Maybe they have an NFT minted to prove their pedigree and origins. That's maybe interesting and maybe maybe indigenous tribes around the world make a fortune by minting NFTs that prove that people belong to them or that things are authentic. I don't know about that. That's kind of a crazy dystopian future way, but it's better than casinos maybe. Stuart over to you. Sorry, having, having placed that smelly fish on the table over to you. Great. I'll just transcend the smelly fish and go someplace else. I wanted to pick up on what Ken said I think about using this quote metaverse for good in some way I remember. Back in marketing in economics 101. It was pointed out that something like two thirds to 80% of all products are about marketing and packaging and packaging. So all of us are thinking having been brainwashed into a capitalist universe about making money and it kind of is the backdrop for so many different things. And I've been noodling with this idea of where the edges of quote first amendments and freedom come in with the idea of, so how can we fix a universe that's running out of resources and I like I like the early conversation of so many people. Now, tech entrepreneurs trying to look for a way off the planet, as opposed to using their time energy resources to fix the planet. What a wonderful opportunity to create an alternative world of a metaverse that actually mirrors the kind of world that most people would love to live in. And use that as a way of kind of seeding or populating a different way of being in the real physical world that we're existing in. And maybe that's a kind of a way through some of the more as that we're in. And Grace is pointing out that on Facebook and everywhere else online many of the entities we interact with aren't in fact authentic entities or individuals their bots there's you know swarms and storms. Yesterday reading something that was reported out of political discussions and it turns out that when the SEC or somebody like that issued a public comment window they got 12 million comments on something that was important that I remember what it was it might have been net neutrality. They got 12 million comments and analyzing the comments it was like 10 million of those 12 million were auto generated they were not actually authentic comments. The only good news was that the comments were split more or less evenly pro and con weirdly. So apparently the budgets on both sides were matching budgets or something. I don't know how that works out. Gil. I'm reading I'm reading Ken's post in the chat. Yeah, we'll take a moment. Go ahead. Yeah, to Stewart's thought, you know, this isn't going to change without thinking about the context that it's living in. You know, there's been a little bit of mention of capitalism and rent seeking and I mentioned far far focus his latest piece on techno feudalism, where he's basically asserting that you know for all the people who want to change capitalism to capitalism is already over. We're into techno feudalism that's most likely it's like in the Middle Ages when the Lord would provide land and you would farm land and overtake your crop. And now here's this here's this farm called the metaverse and the Lord takes your attention and your eyeballs monetize it when you get you get no economic value in return. So I'm, I've been more uncomfortable in this call than I have in any GM call that I've been on. There's sort of dancing around the mess I realized that maybe after what, you know, 42 years online. Maybe I'm finally becoming a lot like. But I just can you can you point to your discomfort can you are you just are you uncomfortable because these things seem so shitty are you uncomfortable because we're avoiding a hard truth that we're not talking about. I'm uncomfortable for multiple reasons. Yeah, both of those. I'm uncomfortable with the headlong rush to escape physical reality. I'm a fan of the bill with my orientation is biological like logical evolutionary. You know, it's one of the things I share with Klaus I see a great richness there I see richness that we that we in this modern culture utterly ignore and do our best to extract from and replace. I'm baffled by why people want to have robotic hamburger flippers and robotic waiters and robotic doctors and robotic everything else because I think there's an enormous richness in the messy fuzzy sloppy interaction of human beings. I have. So, it's sort of in that direction. The abandonment of real life, the abandonment of biological interaction, the desire to upload ourselves to another planet as if our cells is a bunch of code. You know, and there's the model of human ratio nation as a computer like activity in our brains when in fact our beings are in a whole body is not our brains or thoughts are not in our brains in our bodies and in our conversations with other people who's just like a, you know, tragic simplification of humanity and living world that I think is going on here in the context of late capitalism and an extractive reductionist alienated non reciprocal system. And and those are its virtues. I was saying to a friend this morning that sort of what one of my main lines that I've been peddling in my work for 30 years has been that Earth's living systems have 3.8 billion years of experience open source R&D and how to have, you know, effective efficient adaptive resilient systems we don't have to reinvent the wheel you know the work the research been done there it is. So my buddy Chauncey bell challenged me a couple weeks ago said why are you using the word systems that's like that sounds so mechanistic for you who are battling against mechanistic reductionist world views. And I started trying on replacing living systems with living world. And the question I find myself asking my clients these days is what would it be like what might it be like to do business as though we belonged to the living world, or to a living world, not try to be nicer to be nicer to it treated better manage it better but what if we belonged to it what are what if we were of it. How do you think in this conversation I don't need to point at us but it Marky and his minions have no interest in the living world. There was a picture I saw a picture yesterday of a conversation that I guess have been televised between Marky and you've all herari. I don't know where it went I didn't listen to I was just struck by the picture in the picture looked like was a picture in Marky's office or conference room or maybe the same thing. And it looked and felt like a very bad rendition of Second Life. So it's like, it's not only that he wants to take us into the metaverse he's building a physical reality around himself that looks as flat as his as his face. The Zuckerberg pitch was terrible as ugly it was like this this hideous 1995 retro metaverse weird he was enthusiastic and sure he don't stuff so I it's just like it's full of this whole thing is full of cringy for me. And I wonder what might happen if we stop using the word metaverse and called this something else, because I agree there's a pony in there. And sometimes the pony gets developed through esoteric scientific applications or class I never would have imagined. When you were starting to talk about meta, you know, agriculture metaverse I had no idea where you were going you went someplace really interesting. You know, and we tend to forget that the commercialization of the internet came on the back of the porn industry. Now there are various ways that things reach scale. I think the vision is important. And the economic context is important. And the, the socio cultural intellectual frame, not to George lake off the frame in which we have the conversation. It's really important it's already been captured by this I think very dangerous and you know, and disease written word. I'm freaked out. Jerry I was wondering why I can't hear you but it appears to be because you're muted. It's because I just did a new the mistake my apologies. And Wendy you were smiling and I thought it was because of something clever I'd said but it was because you noticed that I was moving my lips and not being heard so. Okay, so. Where was I going so part of the. Come on now come back thought. You were just talking about. Oh, I just got it back. So, part of what I regret about part of the framing of this call of has Zuckerberg appropriated the metaverse and are we now. Do we now have to fight to win it back or is it all over, etc, etc, is that it frames the whole conversation around his, his idea of the metaverse and we suddenly are busy critiquing that and using that as the center of the conversation. As opposed to just going off and saying hey actually there's a better verse or there's a something else that were that is already in progress. I'm worried about how to how to actually build that thing so I'm, I'm worried that Zuckerberg by mere presence of, you know, a planet the size of Jupiter and our little orbital system pulls us off toward it, merely by by its presence and by our paying a lot of attention to it. So, it could be that it could be done willing. This is interesting. Let's, let's, let's wish that Zuckerberg's meta is like the Superliga, or whatever it was called the Super League that happened in Europe, where a bunch of the highest paid soccer teams decided to create a separate and not invite the other teams to play, and it lasted about a day before the entire thing fell in a shambles and everybody's like joke from 2020. So, you know, there's no, there's plenty of things that Zuckerberg is done where he had a black thumb and they didn't go any place. So, Wendy. I was, I was, I was laughing at Grace's post actually that the sucker verse post, which I thought was funny. Yeah, I really resonate with what Gil was saying a minute ago in terms of how we frame this and then you you were echoing it to Jerry how how we frame this the questions that we asked matter greatly. We ask, what's wrong with Facebook. We, which is your point Jerry we stay in the space of trying to trying to fix Facebook or or right and in our and our thinking is now is limited to the box of what is, instead of what's possible. We ask, what sort, what, what can technology do today that can help support human thriving or flourishing or pick your pick your pick your word. Then we start to move away from those boxes and start to say well, hey wait a minute we could pull a piece from over here where VR really helps people in education learn something they never could learn it or go a place or have an interaction with someone they could never learn in the classroom. And we could pick this over here where people are connecting and mentoring so now you could have kids who maybe don't have access to education or really brilliant and need access to more education to customize their education and with mentors and with VR and with courses and with all these other right so already there's there's one thread that where we're start to pull from what seemingly might seem now to be disparate pieces that easily could come together. And so I had posted before you know people, people. There's a lot of science now around the neurology of how, how we so quickly react to negative things, shock and all, all that kind of stuff it's just human, our human nature and it's kept us alive and it keeps us, you know, paying attention to the lines and the things that will kill us and of course don't really exist in the world, most for most of us in the world today. So, the other I think thread to this conversation is and the questions we need to be asking are how can we get attention on the things that matter, right, and, and a lot of that has to do with using technology to bring people's attention to the things that matter because they won't go there naturally. The masses won't go there naturally they're going to go naturally and this is where our media comes in this is where all that you know all those conversations about what's being put in front of us matter to me just getting good news out is in and in and of itself, incredibly powerful we don't do that right now, even just platforms, platforms that are like good news like john Kaminsky put out some good news over over COVID and if you didn't see them, they were hilarious and they were a bright spot. And for six months for me or whatever long he was putting them out. He told the enterprise. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, yep. He got bought out and it got turned like it turned into nothing, which was, I bet there was some part of that I was supposing there's some part of that where he thought it would grow and instead they killed it. Yeah, right. So I, it's, it's just this is the interesting thing. And how do we work within the current system that's not based on the things that we need while we build the thing that we need is also a huge challenge so there was a lot in there and I hope that wasn't confusing. That's great. Yeah, thank you Wendy Paul. First I wanted to congratulate Klaus on that new job. And I grew up in the police sales. And if, if you don't know what the police sales looks like it's worth Googling some images is some of the most incredible landscape you've ever seen is just a really stunning place and so I hope you have lots of fun with the farmers up there. And my one thought as I'm listening to this is, I'm, I don't know if these metaverses can escape what's true was the internet but on the internet, you know, you do a search in your first page or two is all Amazon links, and you know, you make a whole bunch of money, getting your link up onto the top and people are paying for it and I'm just wondering. Okay metaverse how do you find your way you go into a tavern and the guy says hey go to the, the Amazon castle over on the hill there and it was not called Amazon, but I was just wondering it is the metaverse somehow going to have a search engine that actually dominated. Thanks, Paul. That takes us back to a bunch of different questions, one of which is, which we didn't explore a path we didn't explore that much is the decentralized web web three, the crypto web, all these other kinds of emergent distributed systems. Can we replicate the capacities of the features of Facebook, or if that's not desirable, can we sort of walk into that world in a wholesale way will will that be a satisfying kind of metaverse experience, in which case, the things that john Kelly was putting in the call about self sovereign ID and and being able to walk over with your data and all that would I think be baked into the into the equation into the platform we would then have some autonomy and some ownership. One of the things that people love love love love about the crypto token NFT economy is like we own it it's our assets this is you know you can buy and sell and trade your avatar your this your that, which is interesting, as opposed to. You're basically renting those objects from previous platforms in different ways so I think that's that's one of the threads that that shows up here happy to explore others that everybody else saw in there. And let's go to Doug and grace. Okay, I want to first agree with all the guilt said it is quite passionate statement about the loss of reality. I mean, this conversation makes me feel queasy, because I sense that the logic of modern times is integrating big data and AI together to run the world. I don't want to go there, but it seems to me like it's inevitable. And part of the problem with global warming is that it requires a whole systems approach, which is going to lead to more pressure to integrate everything together into a single system. And then the question is who owns that, but it's the monopoly technology that's going to dominate reality that it seems to me is the threat in this that lies behind this conversation. Doug, thank you for bringing that up because I see that in the smarter cities initiatives. I see that in precision agriculture and all kinds of other techno agriculture. And in a lot of these worlds we are very, very, very easily moving into sensors and detectors and tracking of absolutely everything smarter and smarter systems, some of which will be smartly stupid and will make colossal errors. Some of which will be smarter than humans, because I look at AlphaGo and AlphaZero and all those kinds of things. It's entirely likely that computers make better decisions than humans under some conditions and that's interesting. But the alternative is to create fruitful initial conditions for holistic solutions and for nature to sort of reintervene. And then to allow that to move forward and then behave appropriately in that world, which I think is the world that you and Paul and Gil are kind of pointing to and saying, Hey, what's wrong with that one? What broke there? And I fear that there are so many techno files who see that if we throw CPU cycles and artificial intelligence that all these problems will solve them. We'll just science the hell out of this that I worry that we are totally slipping into the techno optimists future here. So thank you for putting out the conversation. I'll then grace them costs. You'll briefly because it looks like you're commenting on exactly that. Last thing, look, there's there's enormous value and potential for using this gear to enhance human capacity. And for all that I might rail about AI, I am entirely comfortable getting on board an airplane where large portions of flight including increasingly takeoff and landing are computer managed. I got no trouble with that, but we get very confused about the difference between systems like airplanes as complex as they are, and systems like farms, which dwarf their planes and their complexity. And don't, and I would argue do not lend themselves to AI approaches. Thanks, Gil. Grace and close. Cool. So, yeah, I mean, I would say airplanes are complicated more than complex. But yeah, so you had asked this question about these multiverses and the distributed systems and I've seen some really interesting potential there. And, and I, and I really relate to what what Paul mentioned about this like you know brought to you by Amazon or brought to you by Facebook, and our cities are like that now to you know I think I mentioned that one of these things it's like you go to the city and it's like there's all this pollution. It's just advertising pollution everywhere. And it's just this, this horrifying thing. I've seen some really interesting potential models, and I'm seeing more and more talk in the web three universe about personal ownership I mean that's what NFT games are kind of pointing at okay you're going to own your own equipment instead of I spent all my time building up this really creative world in whatever it is in in in Minecraft, but it's owned by Microsoft but no you've got this NFT and I built it and I own it and I can trade it and all that stuff. So there is this idea that people can own the things they create. I would say, again, connecting to what Gil said, it's like, just the ownership model kind of grosses you out a little bit one way or the other because we're part of a natural system so this thing of like I own something always has that kind of like weirdness about it like oh I own this part of the metaverse it's like well, I don't know whatever you know that maybe in the metaverse you could say that but maybe you couldn't it's just built by all of us together. I've seen some really promising stuff and I think that one of the things that decentralization allows, or maybe just kind of will happen because things will implode is that the founders kind of come in, and they do this I co and they raise this money and they kind of make the speculative capital, but there is this way of like wanting to let go of the project because I made enough money already. It's not an owned thing so you don't sell it to a larger company, and it, and it becomes this whatever universe in and of itself, and people asked this weird question here in the decentralized world like who's going to be the 800 pound gorilla which is a really interesting question because if you go to the jungle it's not like the 800 pound gorilla has more power than an ant, you know an anthill or the anthills as a whole, or the 800 pound gorillas and more, or the river, or the river right like it's just this weird like who's gonna be, and I think the decentralized world and the metaverse is pointing towards that that they're going to be even within the games themselves. I see people talking about okay there's going to be you see this in Eve online actually like there's safe areas that you can go to and then there's areas where there are these bots and then there's like bot hunters that are like the players themselves are self policing the and so you're really seeing these things start to become more integrative and have different pipes and places that you can go. And so I think that decentralization does have this potential to have this. And I'm not as concerned about interoperability I mean interoperability is kind of a simple thing. When I think about interoperability it's more like that you could see of like animals is interoperable it's like okay well we know about gravity and we know about plants and there's water there's salt water and there's fresh water. There's like these very you know and if it's and if it's yellow and black probably you shouldn't eat it that's probably a warning and these kind of very simple rules of interoperability but you mostly live on your continent. They're better off there anyway, you know, so that's what I'm seeing. Thank you. Awesome. Doug I think your hand is still up from before and Klaus if you jump in. Yeah, what I see is the, what I call techno escapism hits an immovable object called nature. Right. And we are really seeing this right now because the police project is significantly has a significant potential to really provide us with this proof of concept that we have been trying to to establish I mean, we have 150,000 acres of land that is being used by 32 who, when we, when we engaged, you know, and we presented the idea of whole systems change meaning community found the fork, right. We had an amazing response because next week we're meeting with the local university with the college catering with the local food hub, you know with several NGOs and so on. And who all understands that the soil in the police has been severely degraded I mean these farmers truly understand that they are at risk for, for having diminished the potential and capacity of their soil. And what it all comes down to is to repair and redeem the soil back to health. And when you do that, then you have to, then you have to, to create behavioral adaptations and adjustments, meaning we have to change our menus and so on. You know, in the college catering group, and to talk with the farmer to say what do you think we could be producing here that will restore that soil, you know, with the design imperative being whatever we call must restore the soil microbiome. And so how can you integrate these products into your college into your catering operation where there serves thousands of meals every meals every day. And so I think where I'm going is there will be a reality break, you know, if you're heading towards a reality break where all this technology that's coming online is not being used, you know, for its potential. I mean, this meta thing there. Yeah, I mean I can see us connecting with other farmers, you know where you can show technologies you can show techniques and so on. I don't know if you need this technology but there is so much available right in forms that we can connect across platforms and the one driving force that nature is imposing on us is that we must decentralize right because you cannot top down restore a community back to health it has to be bottom up. So I was in a, I was teaching a class to a citizen climate lobby a couple of days ago on the coin climate solutions act and all that. I had a young lady in the in the coop from Wisconsin, and she goes look I'm, I'm living, you know, small community in the middle of agricultural fields all around us they're going cranes like no end, mostly for biofuels right, we don't have food to eat there's nothing being grown in our area that we can actually eat. And, and, and she was and by the way, our average income is $19,000 a year and now you try to live for $19,000. I mean, I'm, you know, it just flows you when you are in in when you when you become inclusive right when you allow such voices to surface in broader discussions. It's moving. I mean it's it's heartbreaking. When you go into into these communities and see how much unnecessary hardship days completely unnecessary right. So, yeah, I think, I think we have that community on fire already. I mean, we're just, you know, setting up the tool to. Is that a controlled burn, or do you mean emotionally. But you know, Washington State University extension is is really progressive in agriculture, Washington State is a phenomenal state. I mean Starbucks started there right the micro pool craze started there. I mean, how many companies have originated in there that we sort of take for granted, Amazon, right. So, so I think there is a there's a perfect breeding ground right for for doing something that just brings a community together and builds a case study. But, but yeah, I think we're running straight into a wall and we just I just hope we can turn the corner before we really crash into it. Thank you class totally agree. We're new in the end of our call time. This has been really fun and fruitful and juicy for me. One thing I wanted to stir us toward that I didn't put on the table that tears toward was what to love and what to hate about diverse visions, like what's good and what's bad so we can kind of tease them out a little bit. I'm going to do that on my own in my brain. Heat just a thought to put in your head. This feels like maybe it's an episode of weaving the world and we, it might be really interesting to have a post a fungus episode about this call, meaning by which I mean to just sit with what we put on the call and look at it deeper, slow it down, get a transcript of this recording. This call is one of the Thursday calls so we'll automatically get a pretty good order recording with I think speaker IDs and all that so that's really good because it sort of jumps us forward. So I'm actually thinking of harnessing what we've done here and bringing it into weaving the world and seeing where that goes, because there's a whole lot that's on the table, and I would love to revisit the topic, and I'm very interested in different people's notes, maps, connections, weavings around this, whether you're a Rome fan and you've been taking notes in Rome, or if Mark Caranza were here, his own tool and Mexico, whatever else that might be, how those things fit together and what we might do with it so I just wanted to put that in before we wrap the call so that we can be thinking, I think that way about it. And for those of you who are not aware, I'm cranking up a video and audio podcast called weaving the world, where we talk about solutions to world problems and then try to weave those solutions into a shared context, a shared base of wisdom that I'm because I love metaphors too much, calling the big fungus. So, us collaboratively farming this symbiotic fungus, which is the collected wisdom that we now lock away in books and other things that have way too much IP associated with them. When is what playing Gil? Your podcast sir. We're busy recording the first test episodes now and it'll be, I've created a, there'll be a new stream will announce it online. There are two channels on the Mattermost server if you want to sort of be in the conversation. One is called weaving the world which is meant kind of as a chat for the podcast. And there's another one called WTW ops, which is the operations channel to talk about how to stand up the podcast what it should look like other kinds of things like that. Oh, cool. Thanks Pete. Anybody with concluding thoughts for this call like including process thoughts like whoa we went all over the place and we did. We put a whole bunch of really interesting and meaty topics on the table here, many of which deserve sort of their own calls and follow ups many of which echo things that are really strong in our ongoing conversations, like hey the house is on fire where are we acting like it. Right and cop 26 is just over with now and it's I think disappointing to a lot of people and heartening to a few. So how do these things fit up please do it. Yeah, first time on the call and thank you everyone. I think it though it got down into the weeds at certain moments in time those weeds are not not places that I inhabit, but I love the idea and it came from a number of people on the call of how we use this stuff for good. How do we use it to really address the great challenges that we're facing now as a species. And I love to focus on that as well. And there's a there's a unicorn sparkle pony somewhere in here. And I think we can I think we have enough sort of insight and experiments to start to show where the pony is and what it what it smells like, and it smells good it smells a lot better than horse manure, which is the typical center associate with horses smells good. Well, see, see, it's a smell of fresh. You know, it really is at your own. It's a natural as opposed to chicken manure, which is awful. I will bring you some fresh horse ejecta shortly just so you can enjoy this. Horse manure and horseshit. Oh good point. Good point. Any other, any other thoughts about this process and what how we could make it better. Grace, let me just put you on the spot what what can we do better about this I think there's like 50 different things we could do better. Yes, you. You in the booth with the earphones and the spiral stairway behind you and the whole thing yeah. Is there a book on this or something is this like I'm putting put on the spot because I wrote a book about the organizational process. I don't know it could have something to do with that but that's a long shot. Well, better is in relation to what right in relation to an outcome. I think one of the things that we're discovering or rediscovering as humanity and as people who are doing collective intelligence is that in the general outcome of this kind of discussion is an unspoken feeling of connection among us. And you can't structure that so I don't have a sense that we could have done anything better. Yeah, that brings thank you. Still, I think we could do a lot of things better but I still love what you just said, Jerry. I think it was a great. Yes, please. I had a friend who worked at ideal for 22 years and he said you know we used to run our meetings at the end we do that plus delta you know what did you like what did you not like and what you change. And they realized over time it left people with they would walk away from the meeting, focus on what they didn't like, because, because that's what stuck in their minds. So they adopted a process or a practice of asking have people fill in three sentence completion exercises. I liked. I wish I wonder. I really loved, you know, the range in this conversation and hearing from all different people I learned a lot I'm not up on the metaverse at all I feel completely, you know, outside of this I don't have the vocabulary to talk about it so I really like that. I think I've heard from everybody. There's some people in the call who stood in the space. And I wonder going forward how we can, how we can combine our efforts for a better understanding that we might actually find some leverage in the world to move, you know, things in a better direction. Thanks, I'm I'm also, let's post these three questions in the matter most channel for her the calls for this call. And let's answer those as we wish I would love I would love that as feedback on this call. That'd be fantastic so we'll I'll just post these three questions and then we'll we'll kind of go from there. That's a really nice way to wrap the call thank you for the. Thank you for that thoughtful ending. And thank you all I'm going to go back to work on the x-wing. I'm pretty sure I can download some new firmware and get it to fly again. So, Bye everybody. Thank you. Thank you.