 Thank you all for coming. This is about peanut butter and chocolate. I was going to do this whole Reese's Buttercup thing But then I thought I'm probably gonna get in too much trouble copyright-wise, so I didn't But I still wanted to like keep that in there because I do see this as a similar thing Some people are allergic to chocolate. Some people are allergic to peanut butter. It might not go great for you and also might not go great if you're allergic to one and it gets inserted into the other so I think that's like a good note to start off with where we're at But at the same time I think for those who aren't allergic and can consume both of those things at once We can have magic happening. So that's what I wanted to cover So who am I? currently I'm the executive director of IEEE essay open which is a Started off as a platform for open source in standards and they expanded it also to be open hardware and open data because putting that in a PDF format is horrible And then it expanded to all of IEEE and then when I joined it expanded expanded to the larger Humanitarian good aspects. So there are a few rules to participating And one of those is humanitarian. It's not for a corporation to come in and like use up all the free resources but That's where we're going with it But larger still I got involved honestly with open source as a more of a participant and not just a consumer I'd been a consumer since 95, but I became a very active participant in 2004 because of wanting to do open government In which everybody thought I was nuts And along with that I also progressed over into open data Because all of this open government and open research and all these things that the taxpayers had paid for I Wanted to see about how we could start opening all of that up Thankfully part of it was mentioned in Obama's Presidential debates about that and the both of the CTOs Vivek and Todd Parks both Took on opening up as much data sets as they could which was pretty awesome in regards to that so Like I said in 2004 we had just elected George W. Bush for the presidency and Everybody thought I was nuts But now looking at what's happening. Who's crazy now? We're definitely going in that direction and the conversations that we're having are really showing that So why open source? I'm not going to go into depth into the slide. This is my that would be the preacher preaching to the choir I am not going to go there y'all all know all of this But what I would like to highlight a little bit is why are governments because it's slightly different It is all the normal open source reasons, but there's certain aspects like transparency with their with their constituency Can be very helpful There is the lower cost for scale, which is another reason which is a lot of people are looking at there's faster innovation There's a lot that's happening in regards to and these are controversial topics We'll talk about it a little bit more digital subreddity and digital autonomy Where governments want to take control of their citizens data because they don't see that as being respected by other entities in the world And then of course the collab actual collaboration with constituents that's different than transparency, right? transparency just telling them Collaborations means doing moving with them and going forward and then also They're trying to figure out how to contract and hire to move forward on this and they don't always know what they're doing And they're going to need our guidance So yes, and I Sneakily call this slide opportunities Because as you can see it's actually a lot of the difficulties But I view all of this as being opportunities for all of us in this room for all of the different ways that we can start to help And move this forward. I'll highlight a few in just a little bit There's a lot in regards to just the plain staffing aspects and understanding how to run the projects and what all of that means and then there's a lot of stuff that's policy driven and And they need that for a lot of those different pieces and they need to have certain amount of compliance in regards to all of that The biggest one and you know inspired by Denise's intersourcing talk They need help with culture and change agents There's a lot of things that are very very different between government and open source And of course one of the biggest one of those is going to be the speed issue and the governance issues Those are very very different and they expect something that they're a little bit heavier Of course the risk profile is different. I'm not going to go into that. There's a lot of specialists on it At some point in time I can but you know the big thing for them is people can die and Then of course there's a lot of legal so one of the things that I That I wanted to bring out to a lot of this is when you're thinking about this and you're thinking about the government stuff Remember when corporations came into open source and how it changed things and what we did Use those as learning experiences for as we go forward with governments because I feel like it's another step in That direction in regards to both the maturity model and I mean maturity model in regards to Having set patterns having set processes having all of those different pieces that need to be in place Well, guess what government wants that even more than a normal corporation does right because I would sit there and say like with Governance it kind of starts like startups where they're like whoo-hoo and then corporations where it's like ah And then government's like whoa Nelly so, you know You have to understand that we're going to be going through that and look towards some of those solutions that we did use to help with That and also keep an eye because we're gonna have similar conflicts Right, we're gonna have some serious conflicts that come into play We're gonna have things with where we have to negotiate back and forth between each other on this So one thing that I would highly suggest doing is looking at what directions the governments are going in See I See s is did this whole policy research in 2010 that they're right now in the process of redoing Where they're actually going through and pulling down all the government policies that are involving open source and Documenting all of them. This is really important. We need to get ahead of that as much as possible There's also a lot that could happen in regards to the good thing We should go look and sit there and see what they are currently funding because some of them are both like France and Canada did a bunch of funding earlier for big blue button which Really accelerated its process and then they were able to all use it for their classrooms during lockdown and it ended up being very good for them because One of the things that they really focused in on was compliance for the children and so unlike zoom There's no spying. It's completely GDPR compliant There's a whole bunch of different things in regards to the security That's so things of that nature happened and so that that was kind of awesome. So look at what they're funding and Then there's a lot of think tanks that are starting to arise One good one that just happened was appell out of France They just did a good one and of course, what were some of the major questions on there? Well scale hiring and how do we fund it Because funding is really difficult for them, right because of the fact that if you think corporations have a lot of regulations in regards to Funding individual developers on open source Government is crazy town and so we're working with them to try to figure out how some of that happens I'm betting the the horse on that or I'm betting on the horse that yeah It's gonna end up being foundations and Larger nonprofit organizations will they'll be giving money to them for certain set causes And then those will be going around and funding the individual ones via that and that way they'll be doing a lot of the different betting mechanisms so I Have both a love and a hate of this It is what is motivating in the EU right now The EU is stuck in a very difficult place where it's got American corporate dominance and then it's got some other things happening with Russia and China And so they're trying to figure out. How do we protect our citizens? most definitely on the Autonomy aspects of it in regards to the data Some of the problems with that is guess what data can be so easily copied It's still really hard to track and make sure that things are safe But they're definitely trying and working out and doing a lot of policies in this direction at the end of my slide deck There's a bunch of links to a bunch of different policies that have been coming out and one of one of them is from the EC And Then of course we've got all the current events right, you know, we had some wonderful work done on contact tracing for COVID-19 Right, but oh my god if contact tracing isn't some of the scariest data that you can get on an individual What is it only takes three pieces of data to figure out who someone is and you're giving them millions so Be very aware of that and Unless unless you're using the Irish Irish one that Denise was working on and then you have the Invasion of Ukraine, which is seeing a huge rise in awareness of OSINT. We have an OSINT expert in the house with Sarah She's been educating me so much In regards to it, but you know OSINT is open source intelligence and it just goes and gets the stuff that's already out there It's not even stuff that ends up always having to be, you know, especially Looked for or anything along those lines And yet it still can tell us a lot about what's going on in Ukraine And so I think that really raised awareness in regards to that and that's one of the other reasons that I think that Digital sovereignty and autonomy is moving so fast forward in regards to that And then you know the war on privacy in regards that that's what I just talked about in regards to corporate America and China's dominance You know, I do believe did France just issue something about tiktok. I think they just like two days ago Because of all the data that they were harvesting Basically if you are a government employee, you are not allowed to have tiktok on any device They also banned office 365 for the French government and as y'all know several countries have been banning Google analytics, too so So with governments a lot of times and with a lot of these different pieces they are looking at Tactical transparency and I say that in two different ways tactical transparency can be both very good And very bad It can be how certain corporations only show you the stuff that you like and won't show you any of the other different pieces And that definitely occurs But here I want to talk more about the privacy and security aspects of it and all the different concerns that government has In regards to that and how we have to bring that into our work, too and Then there's the legitimate adoption of open source. I say legitimate, which is that might not be the best word in regards to it, but government started using open source. All right, just like everybody else is you can go look at the open UK's Not just falls out of my head. What's the name of it? State of open so there's three different amazing reports. Please read them And you'll sit there and see just how much is actually happening there But they're not really always For the most part I see very little participation until recently. I've seen very very little engagement I haven't seen, you know coming into the community and being a part of the community and things of that nature We need to get them to that point. We need to talk to them about, you know, open source program offices Not being just about legal and compliance Right a good open source program office Integrates with all of the different communities that they're working with and we have to walk them through how that works And for a lot of this we're gonna have to bring our a game Because once again, I talked about their concerns about quality in regards to that because people do die You give out the wrong information Those kinds of things happen people die and we don't want that to be happening here And so they're really gonna ask us to bring the a game You know, that's why the Linux Foundation and several others got called into the White House to talk about the log Poor Jay is because they were having those problems and they were worried about how that was going to impact the government itself because of So many people using those libraries So I'm a little biased. I work at IEEE SA stands for standards open I believe one of the big things on this is going to be standards to the rescue I'm just based off of all of my conversations that I end up having all of I'm not going to these entities They're coming to me and they're coming to me because they're like, oh your IEEE your standards and you're open So what should we do? What does this look like? How do we do all of this? And so I'm like, well, let's start in on the one that Steven Wally is leading the open-source software project governance It's very small. Well, it's not very small It's very limited in scope and we did that on purpose so that we could start to figure out what that process is going to look like going forward for open-source in general not just IEEE and And then you know safety ends up being a big concern and like where I work, you know, it's huge You know because they do things like how do you stand for how do you how do you run a nuclear power plant? So our process is might be a little heavy But there's good reasons behind it And I don't know if any of y'all got to see Steven Wally's talk But we do try really hard to make sure the people who come into standards do get indoctrinated into the culture That we have there And one of the other things that I think is really important about that is the consensus building mechanisms Different standards are done in different ways. Some of them are built off of consensus. Some of them are built off of dominance. I Weren't against the dominance ones and Trust so often in government, I feel like they depend like academia does on the peer review model if we're lucky They depend on it And that doesn't scale or work process wise for us And so we have to figure out a little bit more in regards to how do we create this trust? And I'm sure all of y'all have been on talks here at this conference where we are talking about that trust aspect You know, how do we get that for the safety and the security and things of that nature? I argue that the trust goes way past security Security yes, but to me that's a basic you also have to figure out How are you going to be open and not subject to manipulations and do consensus and work with the communities and do all of those other Different aspects. It's not just about code and it's not just about security patching so One of the things I think is extremely important in regards to all this is ethics Not all standards bodies come from this point of view We do we've got this great 7,000 series with it, which is ethics in action which comes from first doing that It's one of the reasons the standards take longer When you're sitting there and you're addressing big topics like this You have to bring in subject matter experts from a whole different arena Then maybe we're always not used to working with we bring in people from You know UNESCO the World Bank all those different things so that you can figure out what those global concerns are and those global perspectives And then legal and this is I think going to be these two pieces I think are gonna be some of the hardest for us in open source Because not only do we have to deal with the legal of the United States which a lot of us are in But you have to do it globally, you know, one of the things you know when I worked at PayPal is oh, right so by Doing money Exchange in 220 different countries. What does that rule set look like? It's brutal and we're going to have to figure that out together so that we can make sure that we do all of those different things I don't know are any of y'all working on open source that has been affected by GDPR Yeah so You know and then also in America, we have disabilities and we have that we have young people and we have all of those different ones Which kind of leads into the other one sometimes people conflate the two they're not they're different Law legal and policies are very different especially since policies often focus on national interests and Sometimes you will have those competing national interests to deal with and concern yourself with so Be aware of what's happening on that and that's why I said earlier look to those studies in regards to the policies that are coming out for that and Also, this is where you know, there's a lot of dragons Is once you start getting into the legal and the policy portions for something that you do and have global acceptance of and you Want to go through the government approvals for? X and then of course export control. Let's go make it even more complicated and you know go across countries and again, I just want to stress the whole Consensus building aspects of that because once you start doing that you really are gonna have to get country to country to work together and To do that you're going to probably need an outside party I don't think it's going to work very well trying to be insular in regards to it So how can we help each other on this? Well change management change management. I think is a huge one Now Denise makes me want to go and rework the inner source change agent presentation in regards to that because I feel like I Know I know well, I feel like we have to do the one that's like You know the 2000 series at this point because it's just going to be so much more to consider and to know for when you're doing change agency in this realm So I wanted to list some players. I'm not going to go through all of this, but you know sitting there saying okay, so for the 2010 report on policy in regards to open source Those are some of the countries that are listed. I went for the ones that y'all know and then I went for a few that you're maybe like The Saudi Arabian one is actually kind of awesome But as I was informed they hired really good consultants China has them Vietnam has them Bolivia has them, you know, it's happening worldwide I can't even imagine what this 20 22 reports going to look like With all the craziness that's going to ensue from open source policies there and then there's a lot of the different standards bodies I Kind of am a little biased. I put all the ones I'm talking to on the top and the ones I haven't been on the bottom But I'm sure y'all are already all familiar with the ones at the bottom anyhow And then this is from the open source side, you know, who do we also have that that's on our side, right? And that's where I think it really comes in with like in general all the different open source Foundations and groups that are around and once again, you probably know all those players But I really want you to take a good look at the country one Because there's those are starting to evolve and starting to come into play and I can't stress the importance of them And I'm gonna embarrass Amanda, but the best I've seen by a long shot is open UK If you go in and check at all their work right now for me I pointed them as best practices on all the work that they're doing all the research. They're doing all of that Awesome. Thank you spectacular so And then the people that I kind of see in the middle Things like OSI and open forum Europe and all of those different groups that are trying to be our Referees and work with us on a lot of this type of work and going in between the two different ones And then of course the foundations themselves, you know, those are the ones that I end up talking to the most because they want to fund They don't know always how to They're like, how do I know if an open source community is doing well? How do I know if it has diversity? How do I know if it's fitting all of these requirements? How what are all of those things? You know, that's something that they're very seriously looking at right now so And I thought in fact, I think the digital public good alliance is trying to do this whole System for approval in regards to when you can become part of that And I know that a bunch of those entities are looking to that as a validation mechanism for funding So some of the trends that I see That's pushing a lot of this forward is of course global supply chain You know, that's like an ongoing discussion over and over and over again. I may be a little biased I used to be the VP of hyperledger So I've got this block chain thing going on But not evil blockchain good blockchain And so I see a lot of that coming up and that's what I ended up talking to a lot of different groups about I see a lot happening in regards to contact tracing again I might be biased because I adore Denise And then I see a lot happening in regards to the Ukraine invasion again I might be biased because I talked to Sarah all of the time and hear about all the oscent stuff But I see these as being some of the trends and major motivating factors for these things moving forward So talked about all the hard stuff Talk about the good stuff benefits So one money money money think about how much defense contractors get Think about all those other processes and once people figure out how to tap government money How much they can make in regards to it? We can have some of that You know, we can sit there and improve all of these different things without it having to go there Why don't we figure out how to do that and not only that but then it won't be owned by some company Instead it will be actually owned by the government and the people and the people who work on it I can't get over that enough as to how important I think that is um You get to have global feedback and sometimes global visibility How awesome is that? Sometimes it's hard to sit there and make sure that like I know sometimes we work in our garage a bit in regards to when you're coding Something and you don't think to get it on out there and don't think to get all that sort of stuff going But if you do you can go worldwide You know with hyper ledger I was just amazed at the amount of adoption from the APAC community Even though we had nothing in their language Right, but as soon as we opened it up to translations and opened it up to co-working and opened it up to doing all those different things Boom the floodgates opened So I highly you know, I think that's a huge bonus also global participation So not just hearing back from them, but having them join in when you know when we opened that up The it was kind of funny because it wasn't always visible to the rest of our community But like the Chinese community on WeChat had like a hundred and something members and they went through and just Translated everything and even created their own little leaderboard in WeChat where they're like I just did this page. I'm doing these pages. I'm doing those pages And they like just ripped right through it and did all of this documentation and all of this work Just because of the fact that we made all of that more accessible to them and more usable for them And you know, this is this is one that I'm a little controversial on I know but the maturity process the maturity levels I love open source, but I see a lot of stuff and I've been doing software development for a very long time I don't want to date myself But one of the things that has always frustrated me going back and forth between corporate and open source is so many times There's no maturity processes and that makes things dangerous some things of that nature Government won't let us get away with that We will get it. We will get it out of them and we'll get help from them in regards to it Just like they help the other contractors that they work with they want to move people along in regards to that and Then also influencing and creating markets, you know right now in open source. We're really focused on developer to developer Let's branch out Let's go and sit there and say how do we you know make the world a better place? How do we do all these different things? When we start doing all that we can actually go and influence and create new markets and help with strategic initiatives And hopefully get to sustainability Where am I at on time? Okay, okay cool So and in regards to sustainability Once you do get integrated in that system There's a reason those defense contractors never go out of business Once we can get in and figure out a good operating cadence and do all those different things We become part of government infrastructure Once we're part of government infrastructure, you know for the good or the bad things don't go away Hopefully we can like make sure that we only do the good part and One thing to remember on all this is that it is a long game It is not short You know as y'all as I just said I've been banging on the door since 2004 I'm thrilled by what's happening now and very excited But I do know the pace the government works at and it's not our pace It is not the open-source pace at all. It's very different and it requires a lot of patience and Resilience, but I think we can get there and one of the things I think that can happen with that is we can't help fix Democracy because I feel that democracy is very broken right now I think we've all seen a lot of different stuff going on and And and this can be a way to actually go in and help with that because we will be creating transparency We will can help with education. We can do all those different pieces and deal with manipulation In regards to saving the world again, you know the UN created their SDGs their strategic development goals Working with them on how do we do that with open source? How do we bring college students into it? How do we move forward in regards to that so that we bring in all these new young Technologists who want to work in the open-source way right and sit there and say hey Here's some really cool nonprofits doing some cool stuff. How do we get you? Doing that too. You don't have to go work for the top five Right, you don't have to go work for that You can actually go in here and do this and by the way serving the young people today They've got some different Value systems and let me tell you That's the direction they're going you know, so working on things like climate change and Helping with privacy and identity Ethical AI once again tooth the horn We have this great thing called ethics in action and we did a playbook and then we're also doing a certification program and doing things of that nature and That seems to be the thing that gets government's attention Most often because they see that as lacking in many other standards They really want to know what the ethics are going to be in regards to this because they do see the dangers and then of course More things are getting open right? Open hardware, which is one of the things that we're looking very strongly to and want to help support more and are Supporting in our standards. So that's going to cause some big repercussions in regards to government as and of course open data is already a concern because AI stuff also kind of revolves around of the data and Then also all of the different research, you know, open science and things of that nature also Revolving on the data and also doing it safely and securely and not violating people's privacy and doing all those types of things So where to start? one education and So once again Please go read open UK state of open. I've read I Don't know how many papers at this point probably about 40 and It's by far my favorite. So if you have to read one go read theirs It's still gonna be some homework. I'm not I'm not, you know, Amanda's Amanda. They're not short, right? They're like Exactly you don't have to read it in one sitting With a cup of tea But I also want to stress that we need to go forward we need to create more of these materials for talking with government officials We need more training for them for them to understand how to work well with us on this They know how to work with standards. They know how to work with some of these other They know how to work with the foundations. They know how to work with this They don't understand how to work with open source. And so we have to help them in regards to that And so a lot of that includes things like best practices Remember a consensus includes everyone It's not just about corporate dominance. It's not just about a certain select community It's not about things of that nature You actually have to bring everyone into the picture and so for those best practices, please remember the nonprofits the governments and the foundations Because that's how you're going to really get it forward because the thing that we're going to have to address is the culture differences between the two of us and then of course outreach non governments turn to nonprofits Because that's safer for them. They don't know to go talk to individual developers They don't know to come and talk to you those different things. No, you know, what did Biden do calls a clinic foundation? Right because that's who he knows to go talk to you know, what do they do in Europe? They call up some of their foundations that are nearby and say what are we supposed to do here? So first go find an existing group if one doesn't exist to create it You know, I put up several that each that several individual countries are now having their own I think each country needs to have their own Europe each country is a definite microcosm that needs to have it and So if there's not one existing, please Go in and sit there and see about creating one or finding one or getting some people too But we need to have more outreach and we need to have people who go to those government officials and talk with them I used to work for work. I didn't work. I volunteered for the ACLU That's how I got into this whole open government thing by the way is I became a legislative liaison for the ACLU To talk to Republicans about technical issues. I went on nine out of ten How did I do that? Well, first of all, I found that the majority of them simply weren't educated the majority of the legislation was written by lobbyists and Had implications that the representatives or the senators did not realize as soon as I came in Presented my case. They let me rewrite those pieces of the legislation One of them I had to attach a fiscal note to which then killed it but you know other than that that's that was the majority of the work and We need to do something like that here for us We need to have a way to go in and keep an eye on those policy ones now the ACLU and EFF They're fighting a very good game in regards to that, but they can't be alone We need to have more of that and we need to have people watching in those individual countries, too because I'm betting once that see CIS report comes out. We're gonna see a lot of crazy stuff going down in those policy statements. I Could do not I've looked at too much legislation to know that it's not going to be scary And we're all going to have to chip in and figure out how to get that represented so Let's learn from government There's a lot of different Examples out there and if you talk to some of those different groups you can sit there and see those Again participation We're actually doing a special issue on public public affairs and open source in The four IEEE for the computer society org. So there's going to be an entire month dedicated to it The CFP closes December 1 Highly recommend putting something in there in regards to some of that if there's one if there's any particular Topics that you wanted to address or something along those lines Sarah and I are going to do one together on Ocent And then great groups to join, you know, again, I'm gonna like come join our standard talking about open source project governance Please consider that there's also Ospo plus plus which focuses on open source program offices for Governments nonprofits in academia, which is a bit different than to do groups documentation Which is a little bit more corporate and then you also have Ospo Alliance, which is doing the same thing In fact, they're working on something called the good governance initiative That I'm participating on and the first edition of it was focused on corporate But now we're adding in the government and nonprofits as well. So we are broadening the scope of that documentation and you know, like I said on this you have to remain vigilant you'll have to watch those different things and You know the most important aspect. I think of this is going to be patience and resilience. We're all gonna have to take care of each other We're all gonna be tired We're all gonna be frustrated. We're gonna be confused I live in the United States It's not good you know One of the weird things that happened to me Back in the day when I first started citability, which was talking about, you know, having everything be citable and publicly distributable Especially anything that was paid for by government. I hadn't I had an argument with Aaron Schwartz I don't know if any of y'all know him or not But he did a lot for wanting a lot of the government data to also be open and public He went about it a different way than me and I sat there I said, you know Aaron, you keep doing what you're doing. You're gonna get arrested and Aaron's like well, you're ineffective you know and in two years time he had died after being harassed by the FBI and I was burnt out. So Unfortunately, we were we were both right Too much tragedy. So we really do need to be there for each other because as we know the polarization is getting worse The propaganda is getting worse. We're watching all these manipulations happen We have to be there for each other and we're going to have to like go through this because I don't think open source understands What's coming in regards to that and we really do have to work through it? So, thank you. Here's my contact information Find me on Twitter. Find me on LinkedIn There's the website for the the work that I do and By the way, here's a bunch of references So I'll be posting the slides on Twitter after this and then you can go grab the slides to go get the links that you want questions Yes Sure comments are good You Right right so you're talking about making you know The more that we embed ourselves into those systems the more secure things will be And just he was reiterating this point first Go find the other the groups that already exist don't undercut them Don't split the message, you know, don't don't do any of that find them first and then but then if they don't exist Create your own and like Amanda so generously offered in regards to the open UK They have a lot of templates ready to go So if you wanted to go in and start surveying and doing other countries and figuring this type of information out For another country you can go in and do so and so that kind of collaboration is like it's what's going to accelerate us and You know really get us through that process. So thank you. Yes, definitely. Yes You Are Yeah, yeah, it's been a very mixed bag for me dealing with internal IT Sometimes it's been amazing and sometimes it's been You know, sometimes they're hungry for it and you can find a champion in there and then other times you won't It's it's the opposite and so that it's really difficult when I post this Could you post a link to the group that you were just talking about? Awesome. Thank you. And then so it says stop. Can I take the two more questions or okay, Amanda? Can I do this by the way? Will this work for them? I don't even know how to like Does that work there you go so it's just picking up on a few things that different people have said about interaction with governments We we specifically designed state of open. So it's always really rewarding when you Wax lyrical about how good it is that we specifically designed it to try and get interaction with government and We followed a process in the year one with the three phases that we did To try and tell a story that government we knew would react to and looked at the economic values And we have a survey that works with that as well that we've updated this year and The engagement that we got back from the UK government and I quote Despite the UK having been I think the first country in the world to have an open first policy ten years ago You have highlighted an area that we would otherwise have overlooked and I talked to them now and I describe it as the pizza base and all the toppings are all the exciting things that everybody gets You know everybody wants and it's the blockchain and the cloud and the AI and the ML But they forget about the base because it's boring and that's the open source and that's the infrastructure We're talking to them about now So I don't want to hog too much time But we're doing an Anglo-American focused event on the 17th of October and then we'll have an international event next spring Trying to bring governments and public sector people together to talk about how this all works So if anybody's interested feel free to contact us Yeah, and can you pass it back to Denny's? I wanted to say that we're a lot of us are going to Brno in a minute here because Europe has kind of decided that Brno is the the best example of a fully featured municipal open source implementation which I'm kind of interested to go see and I'm really interested in it, but You said when you were on the slide before that Not that one the other one that Really Europe should have its own you know its own community practice basically is what what you were talking about But what you said was that they should have their own because they're a significant microcosm in Fact Europe is bigger than no no no no no I wasn't talking about Europe. I said each country Each country should have one each country should have one That's why I said is each country around the world should have one because each country is its own microcosm Yeah, that's only it has a lot to do with legal and policy is why I say that the European Commission How our European Union has offered to fund 20 member state? I suppose Ten in academia and ten in municipal government, but nobody's holding them to find out how you do that like how do you apply? Right, so I think pressure when it's almost like the old days when companies would issue something saying they were gonna do open source And then it nothing would happen So I feel like those of us that live in Europe really need to keep the pressure on to make them actually do what they Said they were gonna do and they're all kind of pointing at Berna going see and we're like So thank you. No, thank you. Yeah, no, no, I didn't mean Europe is a microcosm I meant each and every country because of dealing with watching and I Guess advocating in regards to legal and policy Because that does seem to be one it Europe is unusual in regards to the fact that you do have all those different countries together And they do form consensus models for some of that too without the country's always having to have each of their individual ones But like watching France sit there and go no has been fun I have to admit and I'm excited to be going to the thing in Paris and talking about some of that in November So yeah, totally. Totally. Thank you, Denny's Anything else? All right. Well, thanks everyone appreciate coming and finally on though