 It's very cozy. Are we comfortable this way? Yeah that's great. It's a very nice setting for for an actual conversation. So the panel is about to explore the scale from activism to climate action in museums and I would like to divide the session into two parts. So in the first part we will have a conversation and then in the second part we will have a conversation. So I hope that you're all with us to actively engage in this conversation. So I have three guests here. Next to me sits Vera from the Netherlands Museum Association. We have Rebecca, a representative of Extinction Rebellion Belgium and we have Emek from Museums of Future Turkish Chapter so Museums of Future Turkey and I think this is a really unique setting that with the outside the Nemo context would not happen. So it's really a unique opportunity to sit with with you three here at the table and we asked the three of you to individually prepare a statement or just to get our conversation started on the question what does climate action mean to you personally as a person as a private person and how is it reflected in the organization or the movement that you represent here today. So your personal and your professional take on it. So who would like to start? Emek? Me? Yeah? Okay. Climate action to me was something like I used to deal with personally individually and I recognized the urgency of the matter so I tried to raise awareness among my environment and so raising awareness and taking action acting in accordance with what science recommends us to mitigate the impact of climate change and but with the movement I joined later I realized I was an alone first of all and I felt more empowered because there wasn't only me there were more other people and there was this inspiration coming from all this unity we established together and then there is creativity we join to protests we take more action we are more visible and we actually when we come together we are voices stronger and we are heard and I can also see this from Turkish chapter that it started small but then got bigger like immediately because there was a need for this urgent matter we were all committed and we recognize we have the power that we can change something and we took that little step and to make that change and we joined protest we were present and we communicated with other organizations like us and we are wise or voice was so strong that we also reached out to police makers and decision makers to actually demand a change so this is what we've become. Thank you. Rebecca. Yes. I would like to start with an apology and I'm not apologizing or I do support the actions that have been taken in museums and I will not promise you to never take a sort like action myself but I do want to apologize for the shock it must have cost you. I do realize that the sector of museums and heritage is a sector that is based on care and caretaking and I can imagine that it has caused a lot of stress so therefore I'm sorry. That being said being an activist engaging in civil disobedience isn't to make yourself popular it isn't to be liked we sometimes call ourselves an alarm and alarms aren't very useful if they're comfortable they're supposed to make you move and what action means to me personally I am afraid I am actually very very afraid for what is to come and it impacts me in a way that I don't really dare to plan for the future so much it also pains me I grieve I actually feel pain for what is happening to the living world and I am really really angry with the fact that the system that is doing so much damage is deliberately kept into place to benefit very few people on this planet and on top of that I am hopeful and the grieve I feel helps me to know that I care and that I'm part of something bigger and the anger I feel is my energy and I can channelize into into taking action and I want to quote Hannah Arendt or it's an interpretation I have that she says or I interpret that there is a great freedom in being born again every day and being born again with the possibility to act and I find that possibility within Extinction Rebellion I do see us within Extinction Rebellion as as caretakers as well we also want to take care of of a rare and vulnerable and valuable things life on earth and I do believe that we are we are allies and I would really really want to work together with you yeah I think that is that is really beautiful and that you're using the word allies I'm also an activist but I'm not knocking on doors because I'm already in but that also comes with a responsibility I think if you are in a position to make change from within you have to decide what is your span of control what is the impact you can make and in my case I've been personally I'm I feel with you with with the also the fear you have and and also after actually these days didn't really help with that but okay and but this is more of what can we do what is the action we take and in my position it as a director of museum association and of museum card so we also have a lot of people using a museum card one and a half million so it's both the museums and the public and the politics you have a span of influence and it is important that you use that but in an effective way and that means that you don't just facilitate what museums want to do because sometimes museums are a little bit conservative because that's sort of their nature but you also can act like an accelerator and some museums are really good and I'm happy I saw representatives from the national maritime museum who are very active and also speak today but in the Netherlands specifically that's why there I'm calling but there are a lot of museums who are sort of waiting and I think we can be an accelerator and that's also a role we have to take as a museum association thank you so to have an actual conversation it I hope that it won't be just me asking the three of you questions but also to respond on one another and and ask any spontaneous question if there is one emek I would love to hear a bit more about Turkey specific and how the museum sector finds itself in the green transition what kind of specific difficulties the sector encounters or the sector needs to be more awakened and so on could you elaborate on that first of all there is no collective action at the moment and there are museums individually taking action and some museums are actually built in accordance with this green building standards however it is difficult to maintain the structure so they prefer not to actually use those features like for example they have solar panels but it's limited so they still use a lot of electricity and there there is also in other kinds of like how do you say green water management and but still they don't prefer to use it because it's still and there is a need to spend much more money so they prefer to have it as a as a as something that is on the book that brands them but still it's not on in use and there are also museums who are actually really taking it seriously and they take use it for example they start from the gift shop and then use vegan food in cafeteria and all their material building material is environment friendly they the construction materials all used from the local surrounding cities and so these museums work strong towards in the fight against the climate crisis but these are the ones who are actually rich in financially the rich museums so these private museums are more active let's say but state museums are not so or municipality museums are not so active in this fight they sometimes expect this to be coming from the top-down approach so they expect there is no such plan or any regulation yet and that's where we come in because recently we wrote a letter to the parliament and also asked to because you know the situation in Turkey is politically also very fragile we have to first reach to the president and then to because when he says something then other everybody works faster so we try to reach him first and we also wrote a petition to him that when will because he recently like maybe not so recent maybe a year ago told that we will take action and change our institutions in accordance with what Paris climate agreement dictates so we will move forward but there's no action at all so we wrote to him and also to the minister of culture that when will you start actually taking action and we want to take this action now it's urgent you don't you can't wait anymore because if this is to protect cultural heritage as you said this we have we have this responsibility as a professionals but we have to move quickly it's and Turkey is we also have these floods going on around and there's earthquake and wildfires we actually leave this every day almost winter and summer and still there is no action but there isn't there is the demand for action from the bottom we gather in protests we try to ignite some movement and we use this protest for example we take this objects on strike as MFF suggested you can see on there is this UK student climate network that started that they you can take the objects on strike and show it in the global climate strike days on march and september that you can also introduce it to people to visitors you to raise awareness that we are as objects also or our artworks are also danger and we join to protest we join in collaborations with other organizations like us however it is going slowly we take action there is individual museums they are taking action there are specific things they are trying to do to give up using plastics or use vegan food or bring your batteries use batteries and in return we will give you a free guided tour and so these batteries are recycled and there are many examples like this but we want to take this to the higher level and put pressure on policymakers decision makers and create a regulation and so those other museums who are expecting something to come and implement they can also start Rebecca this what emek just shared with us probably this the frustration that you share about no strategy at government level I think not only for the cultural sector but probably for men for for the country at large that that's right that I feel that that you're that the frustration that you experience with the leadership wherever in the world is actually what what emek is describing coming from Belgium do you share what she is pointing out that there is no at least in your country that there is no overall strategy is what I noticed from the belgium extension rebellion declarations that you have us you strongly call upon the national government or the federal government I probably have to say if I compare it to the Netherlands or the Dutch extension rebellion organization so there is a direct call upon your government do you do you feel that that you are achieving with your actions that you're achieving some steps within the government that well I would actually say that the Netherlands are better in doing that I don't know if you saw but they have done a blockade of the highway for almost a year yeah well they did it throughout a year and in the end it did actually make quite a big impact they demanded that fossil fuels would be there would be an end to the subsidizing of fossil fuels which is actually crazy that you think about it that our governments are all still highly subsidizing fossil fuel use but anyway in Belgium the government is not at all doing better than than any other government I think to say the very least and I'm not sure where you read it but I think we kind of don't really believe anymore that it's going to come from the government so when when we do do actions that put pressure on the government they're at least as much to sensibilize the public and to just disrupt everyday life to kind of be that alarm that I talked about before and when we are talking about the cultural sector or museum sector even more precisely what relation do you have as a representative of extention and rebellion with the museum sector and in particular in Ghent can you elaborate on that what your experiences are yes gladly we well last year when when those actions within museums started there was of course quite a lot of stir and quite a lot of criticism but there also was there also was some some people from your sector that spoke out about being a little more careful with condemning and maybe listening to why people would take such drastic actions and we contacted a few of them amongst them Sergio who is here as well and we started to dialogue and just talking and just exchanging about our values and our hopes and fears and one thing that came out of that was a cooperation with the the city museum of modern arts in Ghent and we had a very constructive cooperation we would get a room within the museum and we were going to organize an outreach festival to kind of invite people in and and come talk to us a lot of people still think we're very dangerous or very weird people were quite normal I would say so that people could come talk to us that they could engage in for example the trainings we do or just the artwork we make and we were organizing some debates and it all went very well until we kind of launched this and it it got on the website of the museum and then the city council got quite nervous and they interfered so there was a conversation with the director of the museum and from one day to the other they kicked us out because we also had planned a civil disobedient march we were going to block the city ring for the small city ring for a couple of hours as we had done before three times and this was also like communicated on the website of the museum that we were going to do civil disobedient action and we were going to start at the museum so we kind of thought it was all right we communicated this with the museum that we were going to do in action we didn't say which action but we thought because we did it three times before they would understand but yeah the museum was mostly funded by the city and the city objected so we were kicked out and that was quite a bummer we were adopted by cultural house in the city so we could proceed with our with our festival it wasn't very easy but I still look upon the cooperation as very constructive and very nice and I'm still very happy that the director of the museum was so open towards us and engaged with us and I'm very much looking forward to two corporations in the future I think both with this museum as with other cultural institutions in Ghent and Belgium and hopefully far beyond yeah Vera could you imagine one of our Dutch museums hosting this initiative yeah from the Dutch chapter I don't think that is that's there I think there are already a lot of discussions between extension rebellion and museums in the Netherlands the thing is that what of course happened last year was the attack of the paintings and that was by stop oil now and I haven't been able to have a conversation with stop oil now but I have had a lot of conversation with extension rebellion and that's why I really like the idea of working together more than attacking but at the other hand I understand attacking or knocking on doors is sometimes possible to work together later so it makes a change so I completely understand that disruption is necessary to make a change the problem that I also had relate to that is that the stop oil now actions where the for example the girl with the pearl earring from Vermeer was attacked with soup and hands stick to the glass it was it was really against sponsoring fossil sponsoring like Shell or example and that museums to stop with that but I think that I totally agree with that but it's only one one thing you can do so the discussion was very limited in that way so it really we really have to be clear at some point when what are we talking about when we talk about sustainability and the responsibles of museums it's then of course sponsoring is one thing but I think there are also a lot of other things we can do and it is important to make clear what we are talking about and the problem I also see with museums in the Netherlands that they very often have the idea that if I have my building sustainable we're ready yeah like okay we have solar panels and we've heat pumps and everything is good and you know we're doing great but there are so and then you say okay but you still get sponsoring from Shell or KLM or how does that work so and also what is the message you're talking about so we really try to make sure that so it is a very wide subject and how can we make it clear what kind of things you have to consider when you're talking about sustainability so we try to make it easier it's on the screen that helps so what we we try to really map it not only with the museums with the wider group of from the culture field in the Netherlands that we said okay what topics do you have to think about when you want to be sustainable and the first one is the A from accommodation which is like your building and your your degree in around it and the second one is communication and communication is is can be both that you that you make sure that you communicate what you're doing for sustainability but also what kind of program do you have just do you but not every museum can have an exhibition on climate change maybe it's not related topic but then they can do something in their canteen or in a restaurant where they say we don't serve meat because we think it is important so there's always something you can do about communication and then we have transport which is also a subject we saw it yesterday as well that's a footprint it's very nice you can you calculate your carbon footprint but when at least 80 percent of your carbon footprint comes from your visitors that's sort of for museums very difficult because they want blockbusters and they want a lot of visitors because then they're financially healthy so but at the other hand you don't want visitors actually because they're your biggest footprint so how does that work so you really should try to rethink that so you might consider offering environmental transport to your museum from a public transport or electric buses or you know for bikes in the Netherlands I don't know a lot of possibilities but also focus on your local public first and make sure that you have a strong connection with your local public they don't have to travel that far and of course it's also about transport of paintings or whatever but the biggest impact is your visitors and it's really often something we don't want to talk about because we want visitors as more and more and more and more to happier we're stuck in the system yeah we're stuck in the system so just finish them so you have your internal business processes of course like your what kind of food you're serving but also where what do you do with your exhibitions you don't use don't use your vitreins every every exhibition you need new vitreins I think that is a very old-fashioned way of thinking but still a lot of big museums think they need for every exhibition they knew they need new displays and of course it is sometimes difficult but you really have to rethink that and then last one is the external partners the E so that is the sponsoring of course and I know there are some people in the room who have museums who don't have sponsoring it is really something which is very common in in the Netherlands but so you have to think who are my sponsors but also who are my partners so if you are working together with for example an exhibition display or an exhibition makers and what kind of materials are they using you know where the where your local partners you're working with what kind of materials and what are their standards on sustainability and we really try to make it simple and it's a lot but it makes clear that it's a bigger conversation than just buildings or just sponsoring or just you know it was so fragmented and I think it has to be one holistic view on how to approach the problem and also how we can take responsibility as a museum sector and am I care Rebecca where if we look at this model it's in Dutch but I think we understand it's also understandable to you where do where could you see a role for collaboration with your organization with your with with extension reliant in what part would you envision yourself if you're interested in collaboration the first little external partners we would benefit a lot for the trick it could be a good example for our museums as well and also exchange of experiences and this transport idea is great actually but yesterday we were in a workshop where we were part I was part of the mobility and travel working group and it's it's really there is so much need to work on that and find out a like a good strategy and communications definitely but for the internal thing I didn't really I forgot about how you run your definitely also yeah I think a muscle almost yeah I'm not so sure I would guess I'm an external partner in this I also feel like I can't say anything about how you should organize the transport of your communities or visitors I don't feel like I can can say much about how you should make your museums climate neutral what I would want as a partner or what I would want to ask you all is is to speak out and step out of trying to do this the nice and easy way and as I said that's always as treat the crisis as a crisis and I've like isolating your museum and and making the transport green is super important and we should all do that but that's not what this is about anymore we need we need to do so much more and we need to be so so much bolder and we need to be so much radical so much more radical than than we are today so I think my role in this would be to be very radical and ask you to be radical with me yeah yeah is anyone interested in joining the conversation so questions from the I see question there is a question there there okay is there a mic I see question over there four questions already we can help out with the mic first of all most I would like to to to thank Nemo for bringing you to the stage here I think this is really important and I thank you for your statements especially from the activist side museum for future we have a German chapter as well as you know and of course extinction rebellion which is kind of the sister of the last generation in Germany with whom we work but I would like to to to mention one point which I think is important here it's not only to have you on the on the stage and to be you know courageous in both with your statements we have to act and act also against the criminalization of the activists in Germany we had on museums international museums day in May and an activity with the last generation and with museum for future in age museums all over Germany the museum directors were facing a lot of pressure from their city council from the local community from the media from the newspaper in essence I think it was a wonderful action but only two days later the police in Bavaria was raiding the homes of the climate activists on on May 24 25 and what we see is with all these nice actions that you know bringing people like you to the stage and giving you the opportunity to to to speak we see an increasing pressure and criminalization on activists all over Europe especially in the UK but also in Germany and I think this is what where museums really have to speak out louder because this is not the target group it's not the target group to criminalize the activists it's actually the target to criminalize those who are responsible for using fossil fuels for not getting out of this economy and as you were saying Rebecca for just you know walking leading us blindfolded like in the minefield of of our so thank you very much for your statements and I think museums can do a lot more to act against the criminalization of activists which we are seeing increasing all over Europe thank you can I can I just add to your story I have three friends and they glued themselves to the girl with the pill rearing then hey thanks and they were in the police cell for six days police all is is sitting and sleeping and shitting in in a cell all by herself they were let out to shower every day and they saw the policemen that were on guard that was it for six days and then they were in jail for two weeks so this happened right after the action because there was the the possibility they might flee the country because they're Belgians and they went to do it in the Netherlands so they were jailed right away so six days in isolation and then another two weeks in jail before they were freed and their trial will actually be in January I think so they might have to go back to jail and again I do understand the shock and I do understand how uncomfortable it is to see something happen to to a painting that we all know and we all love and and that has been taking so good care for for so long time and then I feel I feel that it is also important to speak a little bit then from the other side because I'm I'm I'm with you and I agree with that we shouldn't criminalize the but the the activist but it would also be nice to find a way to work together because I think museums can also take the role of the activist as well and in this case I spoke to a lot of people in the Maritz house and they were actually also people working there really shocked so it was really shocking and painful event and it was really difficult I did it and I tried because I the museum directors after this incident didn't want to do interviews because they were afraid that they were going to be the next one so at the end the director of the Maritz house did say something but I tried to do the speech for the for that and I really tried to say to make clear that we're on the same side we want to accomplish the same thing so I completely agree with you but it would also if it's really something you had no art on a dead planet I agree with that completely but let's try to find a way to do this together I also would like to say that so it is I feel with you but this was really a shocking event for the museum professionals there and and yeah I also felt yeah it was also difficult I think and who should take the initiative to to create a synergy what would you recommend the sector or the activists no Rebecca what are your thoughts well yes both yeah I just ranked a few of them that spoke out in the media and and some really nice corporations went from there so I would just tell you to look up your local activists and call them and and ask them for for a coffee and they're also just people they're very much just people trying to to live basically yeah can I also say a few words about this uh this uh events happening globally are affecting people for example in Turkey people react to these museum professionals as well and they see what's the purpose here they don't get it exact immediately it's action towards to it's the climate action it's received more like there is a there is and they react against the climate activists so there it creates another reaction a negative reaction so it's definitely we need to work together and actually museums for future is an alliance to fridays for future movement and we uh in our we have this uh simple 10 steps that museums can support climate activists we invite we suggest that we you invite museums invite these climate activists and work together and also we as we are also museum professionals and museums from the cultural individuals from the cultural sector so we also suggest these individuals who are climate activists and go connect these museums and suggest an action together to work on something together thanks so we had just one question from the audience but there were four already so um christina vanini intercom I went to be a little bit radical and controversial at the moment um I was a little bit disappointed by your reply of you don't know what uh what's the agenda for museums since most of the time above all in Italy museums in italian other places museums are the target of uh uh rebel um activist actions so I was really expecting an agenda of points on which museum could sit down with the activists and say we can start from these and we can uh step by step reach uh from the easiest to the most impactful so um I like activism I support what you do not you in person but the the activists uh um activity but then if you rebel you've you've got to have a name and you have to be able to share it with the ones who can cooperate with you because otherwise it's just rebellion and we saw uh the the elder people saw how rebellions sometimes end up in nothing so um I I wish next time you or your colleague can come with the list of actions that we can do together just to be clear you're now talking about the Italian section of extension rebellion I'm talking about now and everywhere I mean if they show up talking they've got to and asking for a collaboration they must tell us on what we can collaborate because otherwise it's very difficult in some sectors I mean in some institutions to find the way to be active with you in your not in your support but in support of the climate yes I would love to to answer you um first of all we're what I said in that it's not up to me to tell you what to do I mean that because I'm not an expert in in how to run a museum or I'm not an expert in in how to keep art or how to to make it make it greener I'm just an educator I I don't know how to I don't know how to do that what I do know is that I am a citizen of this world I'm part of the living world and and I see it go to pieces and the reason that activists target museums isn't because we think that you're not green enough or that you're not transitioning fast enough um or not more or less than any others or most other sectors the reason that activists target museums is because you hold very vulnerable and valuable artifacts that um that have that have value to everybody and we and and it it isn't nice I I realize that it isn't nice to do that um but we do use you as a canvas to to get a platform to speak to the world and um I would really really like to to start talking to you about what we could do together but I don't think it's in in bullet points of how to isolate your museum or how to get the toilets running on rainwater I think it should be about active citizenship it should be about opening the museums to the public it should be about um engaging communities it should be about giving people a voice it should be about reminding people that they're active parts of society and I think museums are perfect places to do that and and I think that's what we as activists miss a lot of the times is the the legitimacy and and the space to to to come together and to to um reach the bigger public so that that's I would really and to all of you please come talk to me if if we can just uh continue this talk over coffee yeah next question from the audience I just have to okay hello I'm from the Royal Institute for Cultural Heritage in Belgium I'm also the leader of the sustainability and climate action working group of Nemo and we will have this afternoon a workshop on how to organize people assembly so I think that we will also talk about this very specific topic what I wanted to ask the panel is it is clear that there are a lot of actions it is clear that there are a lot of things that we should do and that way for some museum or for some personal people we are already implementing but there is also a feeling that we need to know where we are heading for and now we have always kind of defined sustainability by the negative not over consuming and then you have all the films and movie and and literature around the the future that are dystopia so if we continue to do what we are doing right now this is how we will end but in a way if we want to coordinate our actions I really believe and I am not the only one that we need to inspire and to work together to first define a desirable future sustainable future that's my question to you maybe if you can give one point or one idea for this desirable future that you would dream to build now for for us for the earth what what would be this this point I can start with something that came to my mind I think the important thing right now is to change our habits because we are so much in the system that we don't realize but we are also so much about consuming that's why sustainability is also emphasizing to consumeness or responsibly it's always about responsibility and to act responsibly in every sense I think and for us we envision a future where these talks are over and so we already changed our behaviors and where there is the museums are neutral and actually our target is to become all museums for future institutions to become carbon neutral by 2040 so that's our plan and we try to work towards that and but we need to work we need we really need to change if you want to see if you are visioning a future that is positive or constructive I think we need to change we need to be that change to see that change you know so we need to work together and I also would like to extend the invitation to join the museums for future here so that our we make that future together we construct that together yeah um I think it is very important that we create an awareness in the museum field that the collections we're keeping um are just I mean their their their objects that we have only for the future so um it the only it's only useful if there's going to be planets we can live on and a future we can have and in a safe environment otherwise it's no use of keeping all this stuff yeah let's say it like that so that means that all the collections we are keeping are relevant for what we're doing now and what we're doing in the future so and if you look at it like that I think for every museum it doesn't matter if you're a contemporary art museum or you're in a historical building with an interior collection um you have to make it relevant for today and for the future um and I think if you make it relevant you're also relevant to your communities uh to the local communities but also yeah for your country for the stories you want to tell and also to to um and you're also relevant and I'm happy you started with uh with some uh um war uh mentioning the war and I think it's good that you don't mention the war I think it's good you mentioned I think we also have a responsibility in that case uh to for the social um connection within society and we cannot leave the social connection uh peace uh world peace and uh separated that conversation from um planet uh uh environmental health so there are all these big subjects and uh which we can which we have an obligation I think as museums to tell the tell the stories with our communities um to take that so I think that's an important role even more than we're doing now and I think museum at this moment maybe are not always aware of that responsibility because they have been looking at the past maybe a little bit to the present and they have to realize what is their position for the future thanks I have one we are actually about to close this session but I have one final question for for you Rebecca and in a way it reflects also um what I'm confronted with in my um um work in the Jewish museum sector um Rebecca you work with this heavy load with this dark future perspective of the future on a daily basis are you are thinking about it and you're working on it and what does it do to you as a human being emotionally um and how how is uh what kind of support system do you have around you and in particular an extension rebellion how how does one support one another um in dealing with this with these scenarios um working with so I I just have a day job and being with extinction rebellion is in my spare time um so I'm a volunteer uh we are all um but working with this um or or being with this awareness and and reading about this and and seeing it happen before my very eyes feels like walking around with an open wound um I just carry that everywhere um but and I said that in in in the beginning as well it it also fuels me to do take action and I find a lot of comfort and and uh joy in that um and taking action like sitting down in the streets and blocking it and and being dragged away by the police that's that's one form of taking action but there is millions of forms of taking action and of course the being dragged away is is what you see in the media um but extinction rebellion is is about so much more um we work very actively on on resilience and and regenerate regenerativeness if that's the word um so so we we work in cycles and we we very awarelessly no no uh very we're very aware of of we deliberately do that um where we where we start preparing for an action and when I say preparing for an action we also think about preparing meals for the activists we also think about um legal uh support we also think about um how to get there and and um we also think about psychological support afterwards we have body systems where we we pair up more um experienced people with with newer people to help each other and to to support each other and um we do big risk assessments what would happen if we block this road um we try to do everything we do with a lot of care um and then we do the action and then afterwards we have we take a lot of time to kind of rest from that and and be together and talk together and and kind of listen to each other's um experiences and and carry each other in that way and then we take take a step back and we we rest a little bit and we try to nurture ourselves within our own environments and with our own families and work and and the things that matter uh in our personal lives and then we start thinking again about what can we do and we start preparing again so we go in cycles and we we are very careful to to maintain that because otherwise you wouldn't really be able to keep that up um and within those cycles I I find a lot of uh relief from from the pain that I carry um and I'm not saying that that everybody should join I I would want you all to join um but uh and you're very welcome too of course um I understand it's not for everybody and everybody has their own way of taking action um but for me this this is a very uh um safe and uh constructive and loving place to be thank you ladies thank you audience I think it's now also time for us to to have a coffee and to take some distance from all the things that were said today thank you so much