 Welcome everyone. Unfortunately, the first job I have today is a sad one, which is to let you know that one of our speakers, Mohammed James from the Government of Sierra Leone, has not been able to make it because he wasn't able to get a travel visa in time. It's worth noting that that is quite often an issue particularly for speakers from the global south, so particularly sad. However, we do have two amazing speakers for this session. Friday Oday from the Accountability Lab in Nigeria, and Jasmina Hayes from Integrity Action in the UK. So I would like to welcome our first speaker, Friday, who is going to speak on the Civic Tech ecosystem in Nigeria. Do you want to use a microphone? Hi, good morning everybody. I don't think I want to bore you people this morning. So many tech experts in the room and I'm kind of scared like I don't want to say what somebody's going to come and question and answer and put me up. Okay, Civic Tech in Nigeria, the evolution of the ecosystem in Nigeria. Well, arguably Nigeria remains one of the biggest tech spaces in the continent as it is with the population and the entry of internet and penetration of internet as well. So one of the things we've had in recent times is development of hubs and co-creation spaces. We've seen in 2011 the first co-creation hub or civic hub, which was where young people came and had access to develop tech activities and tech platforms. In 2011 as well, there was the launch of the Mobile West Africa, now the most prominent tech conference in West Africa, being attended by people from all around Africa. We've also seen Google and Facebook set up greater programs to address Civic Tech and allow Ventures Park, Google Collab and Civic Hive, which is one of the recent ones which we've seen having effects with young people. We've also seen innovation hubs in Nigeria, at least the government is making efforts to put hubs at every space in the geopolitical zones. Currently we have in the North and the South and the West, also one in the East. So what drives Civic Tech in Nigeria? From studies, Civic Tech can be largely grouped into three areas, both overlapping, looking at government technology, citizens to government and citizens to citizens. Most on the list we have votes in which we just finished in February 2019 and a couple of people developed some platforms which we'll be looking at. One of them is Uzabe which was developed by Connected Development to measure the impacts of threats and national ballots, boxes and all that that has to do with voting in Nigeria. This is also technology used to improve voting processes such as the digital votes guides and two for simplifying registration. So what are the major players we have within the ecosystem in Nigeria? We have Budgets who runs Tracker, a social platform for active citizens who are interested in monitoring budgets in public spaces. Hopefully we have what has helped them so far is engaging young people at the rural areas to inform them of budgeting processes and budgeting platforms and how they can hold government accountable using this platform. We also informed them of constituency projects which are captured on the project and how citizens can engage with government as well. Like I mentioned earlier, we have Connected Development who recently just launched Uzabe. It's a real-time platform to map elections in the 36 states. That was as well active but we have not measured the impacts yet. We are hoping to see what outcomes they have for us at the moment. We also have PBDC who have developed an open contracting platform called Budetshi. So one of the things I'll be talking about in the next few slides after now, it's about data security. So we found out that the government also decided to launch a platform for open contracting as well called Nopoko. So some of the things we've seen because of data security, the government said to them, oh, we want you to hand over this platform to us but we had these back and forth discussions and it didn't work. So the government decided to go ahead to design a platform for procurement and contract delivery process across their public sectors. Another one which we've seen in recent times is citizens gather focused on the justice sector. That's improving the pace of justice delivered through tech. So the process is making a complaint or a case, adding a timeline to the case, sharing the justice clock and pro bono lawyers are engaged to identify these cases which have been identified and they take up these cases. So far they have been able to secure the release of more than 50 people in custody intervening in over 1,000 situations and including involving attempted extension by police and judicial officials. Government also provides legal counsel to average of 18 people in a week. So what hasn't worked? So we looked at a couple of platforms and spoke to a couple of organisations and we found out about Revolta. Revolta is also an online voting platform where they give information to citizens about voting and they try to be as social as they can but after the 2011 elections we found out the cease to exist which was a bit of concern to us. Also reported by helping to fight corruption with a text once at a time. So we also found out this platform on their websites is little or less not active as the case may be. So what have they missed out? So some of the reasons we looked at is they focus on the tech as the main solution rather than involving the people and engaging the society. Another thing we looked at is a couple of them have just jumped into the tech field without considering a pilot program to design a pilot program which can see how effective citizens can use these platforms. Another thing we've looked at is poor design with little or no inclusion of the communities during their planning phase. So at some point we expect citizens engagement at the end of it all. But if you look at it from the perspective of the platform it's seen that the people who are designing this tech they have little or no access for it. So you still have to go back to them and explain how to use it. You have to teach them how to use this, use the platform as well. We also have overly technical design for targeted communities. So like I said initially I am tech experts so you have this fantastic idea and you go out and you design your platform without considering the society and the community. So we've also looked at this and said to them oh don't you think you have to consider the marginalized as well as the minorities in the communities because after designing who uses these tech applications, how do they get access? So another thing is access. So what are the strengths? We've come up with a SWAT analysis for tech organisations in Nigeria and we've seen that as a huge market with huge participation. Mostly to miss out in Degos and Abuja which is the capital city of Nigeria. However we still have young people who are at other geopolitical zones and we want to engage them. So we looked at how can we do this, how do we make these platforms exciting for them? We've seen a couple of engagements on Twitter as well, Facebook as well. So we will be glad to see more done about this making it exciting. So another thing we looked at is the leadership and expertise in the application of technology for engaging youths and civil society. So in most of this organisation making reference to budgets led by a young person and connected development as well. There's also the ability to strengthen in local and national and international issues. There's also a green social network of influential youths in Nigeria who wants to make the difference using civic tech. There's also increased visibility across sectors and growing relationship with established organisations, companies, UN agencies and foundations. So what are the weaknesses of civic tech in Nigeria? So like I mentioned earlier, one of the things we've seen is consistency project being monitored by the parliament. So we had OpenNAS a couple of years ago and we had that engagement. So a couple of people decided to, one of the things budget did is to design track. However we had another organisation who designed Udeme as the same platform. So we had a concern of having duplicate projects. How do we measure? How do we engage people? You're still engaging the same targeted group so having duplicate project might be confusing as well. Another thing we saw is the lack of use by local communities and public interest. So with expect technologies, high tech and how do we engage local community at the local level? How do we make them use these things? How do we teach them how to use this? Tracker has been one effective platform which has done this. So they hold town hall meetings almost every month from different part of the countries. We also have complicated end user interface and system reliability. So still talking about the user interface. High tech, as good as it may look, we still have the minorities which are targeted group in Nigeria. How do we engage them to fully use this optimally? The cost of hiring and training and knowledge transfer is actually high. So that's a thing of concern for us as well. Funding is also one of it, which is quite challenging for a couple of people to develop their platforms. We also have the political influence. So we just finished our elections and as the case may be, there's a political interest in most of these tech platforms. How it affects them, how it's going to affect their political affiliations, political appointments in offices and how it's going to relate with the public as well. We also have the lack of formal expertise on behavioural science and people-centred design. Also another challenge is most of these tech platforms are not focused on people. So it's more like having this platform, having this fantastic idea at the surface. So we looked at it and said, okay, why not have a people-centred design where you can have a bottom-up approach instead of a top-down approach? Also lack of internet is nevertheless in as much as Nigeria stands to be one of the biggest access to internet. We still have the rural areas where the population lies and they don't have access to internet as well. So what are the opportunities for civic tech in Nigeria? One, leveraging on existing co-working space. So exciting to know that a couple of co-working spaces are developing around Nigeria. Almost at every geopolitical zone there's one which has been developed. Most especially in Lagos, where they focus in Lagos. Lagos has some exciting spaces where young people are working from. Investors in Lagos, Abuja and other cities. So this place is our target areas where young people can have access. The opportunities for the future is also better measurements and communication of impact. So we looked up a couple of things and different organisations are measuring different things. Started from users, from time spent on these applications, from the wins, from the votes, from the shares, from the city and store, and etc. There's also increase in civic accelerators and incubators. Excitingly we've had Google and Facebook in the field of play as well. So there's potentials for closer collaboration and coordination between civic tech funders. In-house government agencies. There's also the possibility of having in-house government agency hiring top tech talent and applying innovative methodologies. Looking at Nocopo, they've been supported in a great deal by PPDC who also designed Budeshi. On the open contracts in platform, there's a good knowledge base from PPDC which they are also leveraging on. The interest in civic tech is also growing. Also low cost tools have been adopted and the ability to combine online and offline technologies. Looking at a couple of, like I said initially, with geopolitical zones in Nigeria, a couple of people are now focusing on low cost tools using SMS platforms to engage with the communities. We also saw that to deepen the knowledge and understanding of youths in civic technology, it's necessary. Partners with socially responsible community groups to maximise outreach. Lastly, to improve methods to better educate citizens in the use of tech. So what are the threats to civic tech in Nigeria? First on the list is sustainability which is quite another challenging issue for us. Like we looked at Rivoda and one of the things we looked at is it was designed in 2011, but after 2011 what happened? Security issues in the Northeast which is affecting the country as well at large will also have data privacy issues which was one of the concerns for Nocopo, for the Bureau of Public Procurement, which after PPDC launched Budesi, they looked at it and said why not hand over this to us, but the concerns were, since it was designed by PPDC, there might be data issues which they have to deal with and privacy issues as well. There's also broken governance education and tax system with widespread corruption. Another threat is the ability to be consistent especially during metamorphosis. The high cost of technology is another thing of concern which is a threat to young people engaging in civic tech. Also citizens digital skills is a thing of concern looking at our Lagos and Abuja which is much high tech, but other locations in Nigeria seems to have challenges with digital skills. Power lastly is also a major issue. So what are some ideas we came up with? The first is sustainable business models and reliable revenue streams. This digital evolution shouldn't be with foreign capital alone. It should also have the platform where we have local organisations, the private sectors also having investments in developing civic tech platforms. We have an agonistic as to organisation and reform. Some civic tech organisations are for profits and some of them are not for profits. We also saw that a couple of not-for-profit organisations will have been civic tech as payment platforms having that citizen engagement more than the not-for-profit ones. So we can actually have that platform where they can leverage and work with each other. So the right kind of data is another idea which we can also explore. A greater volume of citizen feedback does not necessarily translate to improved government response. So the fact that you have people engaging with your platform, so for Nigeria one of the things we know is there's engagement with the citizens but the response for the government is a bit poor. So you don't necessarily get that feedback or the response to educational issues which you're advocating for health platforms. So building the right solution is another idea which we've come up with. Greater understanding of government as a customer in need of the right tools. Some platforms don't take into account how government officials perceive, and respond to these technologies as tools to help them not to justify problems but to assist in solving them as well. Also we're also leveraging on this platform using the open government partnership in Nigeria as well to co-create platforms of civic tech platforms to engage government and make them understand why we're doing this and building the right tools as well. There's a finite number of users. A proper synergy between government, media and civil society organisations and innovation hubs can ensure both civil society and media are equipped with necessary technological tools for sustainability. Another thing is the accountability incubator which we run at accountability lab engaging young people to develop ideas, develop skills and work together in collaboration. So what are the takeaways from Nigeria which we have come up with? The impact of civic tech efforts have rightly been questioned. The impact of the tools, who is using them and how are they using them? It's another thing we have looked at. Also civic tech is still finding its footing in Nigeria and with so many smart creative young people pushing for civic tech onwards is evolving in the near future. Civic tech organisations in Nigeria should develop creative partnership with leading global organisations in the space, talk about data kind, talk about engineering room, talk about budgets, talk about connected development as well. Lastly, tech is not the solution but an enabler. The human part of all this is the major solution. So if we don't engage the citizens, the tech might as well be another platform for people to just play. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for that overview Friday. I'd like to welcome our next speaker, Jasmina Hayes speaking on citizen monitoring in Nepal. Morning all, thank you very much for having me here. I'll try to be very, very brief and I just need tech support to tell me if video is going to play or no? Oh, okay, we'll try. So before I start, I would like to... How does this work? I would like to tell you a little bit about our approach. Our approach is very, very citizen focused. Everything that we do is very much bottom up. We're a British charity. We don't have physical presence in any of the countries where we work. So we very much rely on the talent, willingness and passion of our civil society partners and citizens in global south to really make this happen. So how it works, civil society organisations, our partners who are deeply embedded in communities will run the processes of selecting volunteer monitors, ordinary citizens who have the passion to do civic duty. Often they will have highly vested interest to monitor local projects like building of primary school, hospital and etc. Monitor on behalf of their community. So what they will do, they will visit these projects in case of infrastructure, say once fortnightly, but also seek an input from their fellow citizens about is this working? Is it not working? What do you think? Do we need another fifth... Do we need fifth school when we actually don't have a hospital and etc. All the findings are uploaded on a platform that we are managing. It's called Development Check. Platform is... I would agree with you Friday. It's another tech tool. What we are very proud of is that first of all it's populated by citizens. It's populated with qualitative and quantitative data in case of infrastructure, is project being built as described in bill of quantities, is medicine free of charge as intended in legislation. On qualitative side, people will say, actually what's deeply embedded in our belief is that we don't want to take this medicine. So why is it here anyway? Our tech tool, all the data, is captured in real time. It's autonomous, so it's only citizens who have the power to upload data onto our platform. If they find a problem in project implementation, they're the only ones who can upload it on the system and actually they're the only ones who can say this problem has been resolved. So we don't take commitment or guarantee from the government who says, yes, we have heard you. That's a really terrible problem. We absolutely agree. But give us a couple of months or a year to fix this because we don't have resources and etc. For us, that doesn't exist. Problem remains visible for the world to see till it's really resolved from the perspective of citizens. So that's why the methodology. What I'm here to show you is our project in Nepal. It's very focused on reconstruction of housing. It's incredibly problematic process that carries on. And through it, what we would like to do is to really showcase what tech and passion of citizens when you bring them together really, really can do. And in front of you, you have a couple of questions that I will attempt to answer. I'm not sure if this link will work. If it doesn't, oh yeah, it works. So just to very briefly show you what it looks like. So about citizens have monitored if we can scroll down 784 homes that are being built in very rural part of Nepal, instant of Pachok. If you have been there, you have to have very strong ties to move from house to house. What government has decided to do is to break down the process of reconstruction in five key steps that to citizens make no logic whatsoever. But the government wanted to hold a tight rein on international organisations flocking into the rebuilding process. So it made sense from Kathmandu. But what it doesn't make sense is when you are a 50-year-old woman living on your own and someone tells you actually to have your house rebuilt what you need to collect is one ton of stones. When you see what one ton of stones is, I really don't think I would have emotional stamina or physical one to do it. Once you've collected those stones, you're issued the first tranche that probably won't cover it. So what you begin to think right, I've collected all of this. So how do I progress onto walls? And you know what, builders are very much in demand across the country. So the only way to keep Indian builder when they are in your village is for you to give them money up front, money that hasn't reached your pocket. So what normally happens is that, you know, the whole process is incredibly tricky. The people who are having their houses rebuilt are younger people who have access to additional funds and etc. So monitors passionately took this tech tool and they said, well, this is an opportunity for us to really showcase what is happening in reality. One thing that really surprises that came through all of this is the passion of citizens of Nepal in rural communities to receive international assistance but on their own terms. They were very good and very articulate in not wanting that international assistance to undermine the culture and dynamics that they do have. If we can scroll a bit down, they have another thing that really surprised me because I work for international and non-governmental organisations and I've always been in this sector and thought that the world is so mistrusting of us. But frankly, citizens in Nepal do trust us and they want to work with us again. If we can now move on to other slides, please. Right. So going back to these questions, my answer to all three of them is yes, yes, yes. But I wanted to share with you a couple of things worth keeping in mind if you are in pursuit of supporting citizens to provide open feedback. People are perfectly capable when explained for them acceptable terms to collect quantitative and qualitative data, regardless of their level of education, understanding of bill of quantities and tech. In our model, they will monitor groups, so that's the way how we overcome differences among individuals and bring everybody to the same level. But the thing is, people get bored and they get awfully bored and they don't want your question on 1,055 questions to answer whatever we want to find out. For them, the rule of thumb is 30, thank you very much, because there's a live beyond all of this and as someone has said yesterday in one of the sessions, it's what happens in between changing naffies and cooking meals. On the same question, because in our model data is collected by volunteers, it's collected by people like community members, we get very frank answers, sometimes things that really shock us. And I think that's a very important thing to keep in mind. In behavioural science, we know this, we trust people like us. So why should anyone, we work in Kenya as well, trust me to appear there as white women living in London to really hear them out? It doesn't work, absolutely doesn't. In our model, important thing to keep in mind is this is not complaints mechanism, this is not bring forward things that don't work. In our model, we proactively support citizens to be part of solutions seeking. So on the example in Nepal, people will sit down with their local authorities, with builders, representatives of INGOs who are building those houses and really voice their concerns. Then you will hear from INGO who says, well actually we are bound by the contract with the government and local authority member will say, actually we can't release money to you because it needs to be approved by central office in Kathmandu. And what it means is people can bring their problems and solutions forward and work out what works, what doesn't work and that way we don't build demand without supply and it's far more leveled process. So that's on question number one. On question number two, it does lead to better product delivery because if you are sitting in front of me and you're a contractor who's building a primary school to which I'm going to send my child, I will come back and talk to you day in, day out, day in, day out because an option is not to send him to private school. When you have passionate someone whose life quality depends on what you do, we all respond differently, we all human beings. And when you see that person for the third time coming to your office and that person who has brought different options in front of you, your heartstrings are pulled and you respond completely differently. I think information also leads to better project delivery because it's visible and it's for everybody to see what we don't like as human beings and is the world knowing that we are not quite good at our jobs. If someone was watching me, I would be probably giving a little additional 1% and etc. What's really problematic if you're a contractor and you're building say roads, your business depends on next contract and you don't want people to start connecting dots and saying hang on, you messed it up in location A, B and C, thank you very much, you're never going to get another one and by the way you're someone's sister who sits in local authority. Useful insights? Absolutely. What authorities in Nepal were completely unaware of before this pilot was that people were selling last bit of everything that they had to keep their housing reconstruction going. People spoke about selling their livestock and in rural Nepal, those animals will provide food and milk for your children. They're putting themselves out there taking unsecured loans and government was proactively unknowingly making the poorest poorer. Another example was that, we all committed to leave no one behind. Somewhere, somehow it happened and it wasn't visible from London and it wasn't visible from Washington etc. The system was set up in a way to really leave the most vulnerable ones last in the queue and they were the first one to drop out of the process and they are the ones who continue to sleep under thin roofs and throughout Nepali winters. We have today worked in over 15 countries and monitored about $1 billion worth of project services and etc. All we care for, are you delivering on the promise that you have made to citizens? We don't care if you're a business, if you're a government, if you're an NGO, there are people who depend on this work and we have every intention to build these tools and share them out there to develop methodology to really turn this upside down. I am a white woman living in London, I'm not British, I'm not a monitor and I don't live in Nepal. Everything you've heard from me was boring. What I really wanted to bring in front of you is a video from one of monitors in Nepal who spoke passionately about why does she do this and what's the benefit and what are the hopes and etc. After this session I will post this video on Twitter. Technology is not allowing us to watch it here and now but please, please have a look. Oh, is it going? Kind of a little bit choppy, but if you see a video that starts like that, that's the one. Thank you very much. Thank you so much Desmina and thanks to both our speakers for really fascinating sets of insights. Do we have questions on the subjects they've spoken about? I have a couple I can kick off with if you think of your audience. Somebody has already thought of one here at the back. Presentations that were very interesting and magically started working. Very interesting and really appreciate hearing your perspectives. I'm curious on the presentation that was just given how you think about whether asking citizens to monitor is placing a necessary burden on them. I'm sure this is something you've thought deeply about, but I would just love to hear your perspective on weighing that burden against other activities that they could be doing that might be more income-oriented or doing something else. Thanks. Does this... Yeah, it works. Very good question, thank you very much. Very much at the forefront of our thinking. The thing is, we don't say to people, go and do this, do that. Our local deeply embedded civil society partner will say, guys, would you like to gather around? This is what the aims are. This is what we are trying to do. Would you like to step forward? And no one is being paid for this. And I do know that in loads of programmes people are. But it's an option. And what normally happens out of a full room, loads of people will leave and you're left with a core group of, say, 10 incredibly passionate people who will take this on. The thing is, through monitoring what we do know, there is a quick turnaround and benefit. So very quickly for community what becomes visible is the tangible, tangible benefit. What normally simultaneously happens is that that core group of people suddenly gets additional recognition within their societies. Suddenly people will know about them and the thing goes, oh, I've heard your brother has done this so your sister has done that. It means a lot. It means a lot to all of us. And also in longer term what it means is that people through that traditional visibility will probably enhance their livelihoods and etc. So, yeah. We are watching it very, very closely and it's a very good question. Hi, thank you for the presentation. My question is for Friday, I follow accountability labs work. You guys do really impressive work all over. So I work for an organization where constituency is the business community, the private sector. And I'm just curious to what extent you see civic tech engaging people as both citizens and entrepreneurs or people working in MSMEs because it's over 80% of Nigerians work in MSMEs. And I'm just curious, do you see opportunities to sort of engage the public in both their sort of representations as citizens and as part of the business or entrepreneurial community and might that have a different impact just in terms of how people interact with technology or what the incentives are to engage or, for example, say if they've had to bribe or anything like that. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that. Okay, thank you for that. And one of the things we also looked at is pay stack. Pay stack is a payment solution in Nigeria which is more like profits for profit system of tech. It's actually having more impact than civic tech in itself where you have for not for profit. Exciting spaces in Lagos as well. People are getting into that platform where it pays off. So it's more like having an incentive for like an outcome kind of thing where you have to make more money out of it. So I think that has more impact. You can actually see the impact in the society where more people are getting into e-commerce and e-governance kind of thing. But however, it's a pin-off challenge when you want to implement those systems in government. There's always a pushback. So this is where we bring in corruption where people prefer to have money from hand, sorry to say this, money from hand to hand, right? Rather than use those kind of platforms. So these are the challenges we've seen. However, I think this is a good solution for us. Yep, it does answer you. Thank you very much. Thank you to both of the presenters. I have a question for Friday as well. Last month's elections in Nigeria were very expensive, they're very intransparent, and it also caused a backlash in terms of the democratic processes. The entire process had to be shifted for an entire week which caused disruption in business, which caused disruption in government, etc. Has this very punctured disruption in the democratic process had impacts on what you've been seeing online as well? Have the recent elections that took place on a national level in Nigeria and their crass impacts on the electoral process insofar as they were delayed, they were logistically challenged and so on and so forth? Have they shown impacts in the democratic processes that you are seeing online right now? I'm just looking at a colleague from MacArthur if she wants to support me to answer that. So I think it's... OK, I'm going to speak after you. Sure. I'm only supporting Friday, it's Lily's question. The civic space has been expanding in Nigeria. We cannot learn that lesson from the 2015 elections when an opposition candidate became president. It's never happened before in Nigeria. It's always been the incumbent who gets another term and the incumbent's chosen as it were. And that happened because there was a lot of connection of voices, young voices, people who have been missing in the equation and the demographics of election. And we saw more of that in the one week you referred to when the elections were postponed. It was a plus-minor situation. Some people thought, well, a lot of fake news came on as to all kinds of conspiracy theories as to why the elections had to be postponed. But it was also an opportunity to further energise citizens to say you don't give up whatever the agenda is. This is about us. Nigeria is a very interesting country. For some of the presentations that we've listened to, people designed tools to track an election where people have an agenda that is very clear. In the part of a country where we work in sometimes, you need the tool to ensure that people think about an agenda after they have emerged to run for office. So you can begin to see the kind of power to that civic tech is giving to people, ordinary people. I think the challenge in terms of driving the impact home would lie in terms of who has access, whose voice is it, who is able to drive, whose agenda is it at the end of the day, and how do we further step that down to look at the different diversities that might be still un-understood and therefore unrepresented? So it's still a work in progress in terms of the impact of that. Okay, just to add to that. So interestingly, the online space is an exciting space. But nevertheless, as you mentioned, I think music is one of the big deals in Nigeria as well. So on the day of election, I was at one of the voting centres and I said to somebody, don't believe what you read on Twitter. It's interesting what is happening at the polling station and people are online saying stuff. So that could also cause another kind of impact and affect people's minds, change their mindset and all that. So while engaging people online, we have to be careful with the kind of information that passes as well. Thank you. Any other questions? I really enjoyed the presentations. Does that come on? I have a question for Jasmina. My question is, have you experienced much pushback from those contractors about unfair characterisation of their aims and how have you dealt with that if you have? We have and we continue to. People, as I said to us, it doesn't matter whether projects have been delivered by a business sector, governmental sector or charitable sector. What normally happens is people, as we reach out to them and say, this is what's going to happen, they go like, no, we're not giving you a sign-off because we don't like being third party monitoring especially when it's coming from citizens. We can deal with an organisation doing it but with citizens, it's a tricky one. Normal excuses are people are stupid, they don't understand what our work is so complex and etc and our answer is always the same. Your work is worth nothing if it's not changing people's lives for better and by the way we have freedom of information if not in the country where we work it's so, you know, you can push back but it's not going to go too far and that's usually your initial conversation. Sometimes people are worried about corruption being found out and they will try to stop it and etc. What normally happens a year into running is people who are not corrupt begin to observe benefits and local authorities sign they will gain additional resources so they will never be able to employ enough people to visit every single project in every single village but suddenly through a platform they can see exactly what's going on. They begin to know monitors, they begin to know communities on different level and that means that they can really issue their resources where it matters. We have an interesting example in Indonesia the Indonesian Ministry of Health wanted to observe quality of services provided to people living with HIV. Their global fund grant is dependent on it so there was a lot of money in question and as the pilot got rolled out what became very, very clear is that there were three health centres in Indonesia where people living with HIV will travel hundreds of kilometres to get there and when asked but why do you do that they will say there's a really compassionate doctor that doesn't judge if you know ignores the fact that I'm obviously a sex worker or ignores the fact what my sexual choices and preferences are they're just compassionate human being that are trying to help me. Til that ministry was really pursuing these very expensive pathways of thinking or maybe distribution of whatever is not good enough and etc and what became very clear is most of your doctors and nurses are incredibly prejudiced and they're awful to patients. Second thing is you can't take a blood sample and then not let me know for a couple of months whether I'm living with a virus or not it needs to be available then and there and what that meant is that the government could intervene in a very focused way so I would say corrupt people will forever hate it but they can't fight it people who are not corrupt but generally want to do better very quickly realise their benefit from it and one thing that typically happens in any country or any region where we work it starts a little bit slowly then the word spreads and then it takes off and what is absolutely fantastic is that we don't see fatigue among citizens at all it's quite the opposite because they trust it, it's theirs, it belongs to them. Okay, just remains to thank again our two wonderful speakers please join me.