 All right, we should get we're live hello everyone and welcome back to for the minions the weekly show We talk about predecessor over prime and Ethereal and we got a lot to talk about this week with predecessors early access coming out I would say it's been very very successful for them Great job predecessor and then we're going to talk about over prime a little bit. They released them just in their discord They've been oddly quiet lately, but in their discord They showed that they've received a ps4 dev kit not ps5 ps4 and their plans to develop the game for xbox And then for ethereal we've got some items to look out very pretty item art for ethereal I am your host the man goose joining me as always as my friend and co-host jelly knees. How you doing jelly? man goose I am Fantastic, and I want to quote a comment that you received earlier this week And I think it's just the most brilliant way to sum you up No, this is Gary Mangus is a man who is randomly yelling and forgets the names of teams and I think that that is the best description of man goose I have ever heard in my entire life But I am fantastic man goose and back with us after taking a two-week hiatus Mangus, what was he getting again last week? I forgot merkin merkin to match his new hair color Yeah, that's right. His merkin is ready to go. He may show it off for us today But viking Jedi welcome back man. Thank you. No, I've been gone for two weeks. So what's up chat? You don't miss you guys. We got a lot to cover today I'm gonna try to keep the brand spicy, but maybe short But I didn't get a chance to talk about you know some of the overprime stuff and obviously predecessor being Officially in early access is super exciting So I can't wait to get into that with you guys, and then we've got a new guest joining us today. It's Wolfie Please introduce yourself. Let us know about your stream Let us know about your content about you as an individual how you came into this world of Paragon and the remakes Hey guys, it's my name is Mike Wolfie. I'm a stream over on twitch. I got introduced into the Paris army stuff From Windu when he was playing overthrow. I think it was like two and two and a half three years ago And that's when I saw I was like wait no There's no way Paragon is coming back And then I started getting up on the news and stuff and that's where I started kind of branching into it And that's how I started noticing about it started getting more inclined and like there's three different studios I've been following all the drama and all that stuff too and your show the show for the minions helps out too with a lot of Who's your is your favorite hero? Favorite keeping up with Kardashian favorite Paragon hero that tells us more about you than anything else I Okay, when I played Paragon back. I played Paragon for about six months. It was Kaimira. It was the only thing I knew how to do. I also didn't know that jungling was a role In my head when you look at three lanes and you see five people you put two on left two on right one in mid That's just make sense So I would be with the off lane and he would be swearing me out and I'm just like what I'm here to help man Let me just slap some people with some axes and then we can go home It just didn't make it That's funny. That's great. Of course you were a Kaimira player for that too But he's like trying to figure out what's going on. No, no, no Kaimira of all characters Honestly, that might be my favorite introduction into Paragon story that we've heard Fucking great My personality matches Kaimira on the spiritual Honestly, that makes so much sense like every once in a while like you're everybody's had that solo queue moment Where it's like what the fuck is this guy thinking? What is he doing bro? And you're that guy. So that's fine. I own it. I'm here in our game earlier. Yeah, okay So, uh Before before we get to the tops that I wanted to highlight I've got a comment from Sean Connelly. You guys have probably seen him in like everybody's stream He's been supporting these projects hardcore for such a long time I wanted to highlight this comment because it um It shows to me the the attitude that I think People should have towards these games. It's just what I think you should have of course Whatever attitude you have is fine. That's all well and good But uh, he said his comment. He said something to the effect of he prefers um over primes gameplay But he's still supporting the hell out out of pred and he bought the legendary pack specifically to support omeda Like I think that's awesome Like yeah, he prefers over the gameplay to over prime a little bit But he acknowledges that pred is still awesome and still a great game And he's trying to support them as as much as he can. I think that's uh, that's a good lesson We could all take you don't have to You don't have to shit on one to support the other I've been preaching that forever, but uh, I think um that comment in particular. I think was just awesome. So, uh Anyway, let's get to pred. Let's talk about pred this week. Um, because they did have their early access so, um The thing we'll be talking about for pred was they had their early access So we'll talk about our first impressions of that Um, they also since the last show they released their uh, play future plans for modernization And they had a patch to fix bugs and move one of the servers Which was one of their biggest Biggest things and I do want to talk about some of the reviews I've seen which the reviews for pred assessor are wild it is There are some of them that are just fucking insane, but anyway Let's get into pred assessor. So wolfie the guest What's your first impressions of pred assessor that you've been able to play it Oh, okay. Well, I got a nice long list here. Uh, oh shit So my pros for the game is so far the initial response is that the game feels great and it feels very smooth. Um, I noticed some other like early access games notice like certain characters didn't feel quite as smooth Whereas other ones did I for the heroes that I play I haven't really come across anything too awkward or too like stuttery um I me personally I didn't run into any like server issues So uh, or like crashes too often the only crashes I actually experienced which was which was the ones that they actually patched The following day, which was actually great to see like a quick response time Um as far but the initial feel is that it feels great and it's fun to play. It's um I'm excited to see what they do with it I do have a little couple Greaves with the game, but I mean overall it's what I would expect from an early access game Like some broken heroes some strong items Some crashes some bugs like that's expected. So I I'm glad it came to early access. I'm excited That we can get we have another power gun game to play I just I'm I got to see what they what they do with it before I actually give like a big time over review over it right And biking um, you've been doing the show for a while But you had never actually gotten to play pred until we did the content creator event for pred And uh, they're they're kind enough to invite you in which they wanted the opinion of somebody who? um Hadn't played their game yet and and but had been following all the paragon projects So they brought you in for that content creator event And uh, so you played that and now you've played the early access. What do you think of uh pred? Well, I mean first of all, I was extremely honored to be added in To that because they did it like super fast. They were like, you know to get me in and uh And that was exactly the welcome that I got they told me like hey What is we want your honest opinion about things and that made me So excited for for getting into each game because it felt like They wanted my feedback and that for you know, just as some random bearded guy that I my opinion matters Which is really really exciting to hear uh, so I think that first event was one a bit shell shocked right because trying to learn all the Stuff some of the guys in there had played already. They already had a pretty good idea of what was going on So I was kind of flying by the seat of my pants But some of the things that they have in there for like, you know casual players the quality of life things So like the auto buy the, you know, the auto shop like the recommended items You know, well, obviously you will always, you know, probably get the most Out of the game once you start to dive deeper in and start learning more It was really really a huge benefit for me to be able to jump right in with guys who a bit played already And kind of keep up at least item wise, right? I still had to like look at my spells every so often be like, okay, wait, what does this do again? What is this? You know, but for the most part it was it was really good The only gripe with that though is that there's almost no map understanding at all Like the first time I went tried to go through the jungle to do something So fucking lost dude There's I mean, there's a lot of verticality in the game Which makes it look really beautiful and really immersive in that sense But it is confusing as fuck I think especially if you're a new player Because that jungle is not a normal pathway to get to anything It's not like, you know What we got accustomed to with fault where it was a little bit flatter and easier to kind of see where you're going And then obviously with over prime you got like, you know the lane going down to one zone And you got it's a little bit easier to navigate predecessor takes a little bit of getting used to and uh, and I still have it quite gotten there's been so many fights we've had in the jungle where I'm just like Running into walls trying to flash somewhere and then I get stuck and then I'm just dead and it's like It's very very frustrating. Um, but so that's just gonna take some getting used to but um, overall my impressions, I guess Oh, gosh, man. It's it's I'm so mixed. I don't think the game is fun as over premise I think that it lacks a lot of like the Pizzazz the you know when you press a button. It's just not nearly as exciting How it's our ultimate is super fucking exciting. That's one of the most exciting buttons to press in predecessor for me But outside of that everything else just feels kind of generic. It feels Almost old in my in my opinion. It feels like old paragon and while that's not necessarily a bad thing It's 2023 now, you know, almost and I want a game that feels more like today Not a game from five six years ago So I think I kind of like, you know struggle with that. Um The items are kind of boring The item art is very boring. Um, and I know jelly knees has had opinions about that and I kind of echo those Uh, sorry, I know I'm going on the long range here, but I haven't got a chance to talk about it It's been two weeks. You've got a lot to get out. I do, but uh, it's it's it's a good game Like and so this is what I was telling the guys I think the backbone of the game is solid, right? Like the actual stuff that they put in and they spent a lot of time and it's obvious that they did That stuff is there and and so I feel like the only way they have to go from here is up, which is exciting I do think that there is a lot of potential the devs are awesome every single interaction I've had with one of the dev teams has been super positive They tend to be fairly humble when at least speaking with us as creators and you know, and again seeking that information I've put in questions in the creator chat and almost always gotten a response of some kind You know, even if it's something like well, we're not quite sure there yet or whatever something has come back to me I'm excited to see what they do as far as communicating more with the general public And really I want to see them tackle the again quality of life for new players because right now I feel like if you're a brand new player You have no idea what's going on Like it's just it's just that's probably the biggest thing that they need to focus on outside of you know Adding more champions and fixing items and doing all the other stuff that every game has to do at this point But the onboarding is garbage it needs to to get ramped up and needs to get ramped up like now And I know they're in early access Early access doesn't mean shit to me like as a consumer The word early access has been deluded to all and I know every dev that we've talked to is like oh, yeah But you know, we know what early access means. I don't give a fuck what you think early access means if I can buy Your game. It's a game now. It doesn't matter what what you call it. It's available. It's a game anyone could buy it It's not like on a closed beta and you only have certain people being able to access it. No, no, no It's public property now like Get your shit together for better for worse Right, like you said other companies have ruined what early access or beta means Yeah, and now you are beholden to that standard whether it's fair or not is not the question That's just the reality we live in Right and I think early access used to be like a an understanding of like, hey, it's early access This is where the game is we wanted to get better But you understand it's early access now it seems more like an excuse and it's That's the way they milk it and use it now. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean it's it sucks that it's that way but and when you but when you compare early access equivalencies across the industry Overprime for instance feels like it knows what early access means in the current iteration of early access And is trying to be more among those lines of yes, not everything's perfect But they've got the systems in place. They've got the things set up They know what they're what they need to do and they're moving forward And whereas predecessors early access just feels like early access as it meant five years ago. Yeah And and again, I'm not dumb in the sense that I don't understand what early access is supposed to mean Right, but the bar has been raised for what early access means to I think what I would consider today's gamers um, and I I do think And this is maybe just because I'm getting older or whatever I'm not to the point where like I want a game that just is mechanically intensive I need something else. I need to have something that's going to grab me more And and that that's a very hard thing I think to put into words or to because a lot of times it's just a feeling and so my feelings On predecessors that I'm not enjoying the game as much as I want to enjoy the game Whereas with overprime with its Mistakes like we I mean I'll go into overprime because you guys obviously got a chance to talk to it But they have a lot to do with overprime to make it viable. I think but it was still Fun to play like I enjoyed Myself and it wasn't like I had to trick myself into enjoying it I wasn't hard looking for things to enjoy about the game And they just naturally came as the course of the game was playing whereas with predecessor I'm not Having a lot a lot of fun. I get quadra kills and I'm just like, okay cool Like it just doesn't I don't know it's it which is weird because normally when you pop off in a game You're like, yeah, dude, you want to You know, you want to be like hyping it up and it's just like I don't know. So it's there's something missing for me personally tangibly And I can't wait for them to have a chance to because they got they got a good amount of money They've got time on their side. I think they've got at least internally a good plan for the future I just I mean a consumer wise. I'm greedy. I want it faster and I want it now and I want it like I'm actually very very surprised and this will be my last thing Where they are Considering where they were not too long ago with the footage that we saw from you guys who've played it before I was very surprised by how bare bones it is And it's it just there's nothing really other than playing with friends incentivizing me to want to log in and play the game each day Like it's just not that exciting for me to be like I'm playing World of Warcraft right now to be honest. It's I mean that's we've talked about it in the past But eight months ago was their last test roughly eight months ago Since that last test Very little has changed from what we can see maybe behind the curtain. They've changed everything under the sun But from the player's perspective in the last eight months, they've added three heroes in a new UI And that they might have spent most of their resources doing reworks too I've noticed that this one does have a lot more reworks compared to other Uh in paragon remakes, but I don't think it takes eight months to just to do like five or six remakes of characters I don't so clearly there's something when somewhere we just can't see it That's exactly right and even viking i'm going to quote something you said yesterday and and uh, I'll preface he even said himself. He's being dramatic when he says this But the message you sent mangus and I when I asked if you guys wanted to play Was I just don't like it. I hate laning phase. I hate the team fights. I hate the items I hate the minions. I hate the animations. I hate the wards and I'm not a fan of the meta Nothing is exciting or fun. So I'm good. Yeah Right and like dramatic or not. That's a huge red flag Right like that even like you even said like it sounds like it's more fun with friends Even when your friends are saying hey, you want to hop into game and you're saying no, I'm good. I'm going to play something else That's I mean that's a red flag right whether people agree with you or not Like just the preface that that is a consensus people can have I do also want to say because I did say that and I do stand by it I think that they do have the chance and opportunity To get better. Those are just the things that currently for me right now feel like I'm just not that incentivized and log in Now I well say there you have a lot of stuff that I do like I like the crest system I didn't think I would I think the crest items are actually kind of cool. I I took me some getting used to I think they're pretty neat Hate wards. The wards are garbage in this game. Dude vision fucking sucks, dude And I play a lot of solo lane and I am just constantly being bullied in solo lane It sucks, dude It's always a 2v1 or a 3v1 and it fucking sucks and I can't do anything about it I either I just sit under my turret and hope that no and then I can fucking farm there Or I try and put one ward that's like this fucking big and I can block off one entryway But I have three three ways to get into my fucking lane No, dude, no, I think um, oh go ahead. Sorry. I was about to rant bro I think with with the early access of pred I think pred assessor is absolutely Fantastic for what it is and I think what we're seeing right now is a clear delineation between what pred assessor is And whatever prime is a lot of people say it's the same game with different assets No, they are two very different games and I think both can actually coexist. I think Both could exist together and you could and there's going to be fans of one and fans of the other but ometa seems to be creating a paragon remake for paragon fans and there's nothing wrong with that There's nothing wrong with appeasing the paragon purist because paragon was a fun fucking game that a lot of people enjoyed Obviously, we enjoyed the hell out of it But then over prime is making a game for the current gamer to enjoy so And I think I don't think negatively If people prefer one over the other like if you're a paragon purist Nothing wrong with that If you're if you've moved on a little bit and you want something a bit more new and exciting And you prefer over prime. I have no problem with that like I think both games have their place and both games need improvement and um Something else i'll send the jelly today if you heard the combined so Predecessor it's like if i'm doing a predecessor video It's like two-thirds of the video is almost useless because nothing happens for for the first two-thirds of the game Then the last third is just balls of the wall whereas with over prime it's like Three quarters of the game is just balls of the wall fucking crazy And then the last quarter of the game is just two teams fucking looking at each other waiting for prime to spawn So like if you could if you could combine them both you would have the perfect game of just full action, but uh I don't know. I think like I said predecessor is it's fantastic for what it is Like the game is like we can't keep saying it's extremely smooth No bugs like I haven't found hardly any bugs whatsoever I had a bellicul that didn't deal damage one time and like that that's about it and uh The only bug that I've encountered is and it seems to always be on ultimates Where I'll use my ultimate and then two seconds later. It's off cooldown again, and I can use it a second time Are you using items items do that too? You can buy an item and astral catalyst the third tier Uh, but then it goes back to gray. You can almost buy him. Um, but I think over prime had a similar bug as well He did yeah, um, so it's it's and that to me is more it may not be a bug It may be server issues that the server is not communicating well And that's a whole thing. We'll probably talk about in a minute here Um, but that there's there's definitely Weirdness involved in communication with the server just across the board Yeah, uh, and then that's that's another thing that a lot of people have been talking about is uh abilities not going off Well, um, I think over prime had the same problem. There's just no ability queuing so Uh phase or the fe for example, whenever I you know, you try to throw all of her shit at once in team fights You try and You know throw throw your untamed growth and throw an ultimate on top of that and then bramble through that and then Toss an e in there from good measure But a lot of times when I do that I'm hitting all the buttons And like the ultimate doesn't Register so I just like I do all that and then there's no ultimate to actually set everything up And I was like, oh god damn it But uh, I mean I had the same problem with over prime. So maybe that's just something that uh, both companies need to work Uh work on going forward. Um, I think predecessors as far as stuff That they do need to work on I think what they could actually approve the game I think a lot of it has to do with sound design and just like I'm Like I've said that to their designer several times It just feels kind of lonely on the map and then like you don't get a different sound for crits So there's nothing exciting about whenever you crit somebody and then I played carry today I hate playing carry, but holy shit You barely know when you hit somebody like it's I mean, it's kind of the same with um With melees too like when you hit somebody you don't really know that you hit them Like there's not only feedback you have is watching their health bar go down Yeah, you see the numbers pop up. Yeah, but yeah as a certified caveman on the solo lane with chimera I don't know that I'm actually killing them. I'm staring at their health bar as I'm slapping the shit out of them And I'm hoping it's working and I'm like, oh wait I actually took down a third of his health and I was like like you said there's no crit notification I run crit on my chimera to see if you can crit with the attack speed ability that he has And it took me like 10 minutes. I'm like, did I crit him? I don't know if I did but then I'd look at his health I'm like I have to have crit him He's down to a third health And I'm full health So that that response is like what you need to help keep you engaged like Another gripe I have with the game is like it doesn't feel satisfying to kill somebody like uh viking brought up with the quad The quadra kill I kill somebody and I'm just like All right, so I think I should just go do a camp now right like I don't know if I should like Go and help or if I like I just don't know like how to keep the momentum going because I don't think their momentum started And that's there's something they need to work on that I'm glad you brought that back up because I forgot that he even said that but I completely and totally agree I don't say this deflects. I've been dropping 20 and 30 kill games fairly consistently Throughout early access. He did say that deflects by the way guys I Am out of triple kills and quadra kills that I have been getting I've never come out of them like super jazzed that I just got a quadra kill Right that I'm like, okay. I got a quadra kill moving on like Whatever and part of that the announcer is awful. The announcer is almost worse than Paragon the overprimes because at least Paragons the overprimes was excited, but just delayed 30 seconds I don't think you can get worse than that delay man. That delay is terrible, bro I was worried about the delay. I was worried about him not being quiet He wouldn't be shut up like he somebody would die and then that delay would kick in And then he would someone else would die and I'm like this guy's still saying that I killed him Bad for two different reasons, but they're both really bad like Fang tooth goes down Are like I can take fang tooth and then 30 seconds later mangoes would be like, oh, did you take fang tooth? Yeah, mangoes I took a global objective and you had no idea about it It happens like look at my health bar. How did you not notice? I'm one shot. Where were you? And that's the crazy thing, right? It's like, how do you like fine kills and stuff make those smaller more minimal? fine, I I don't care too much, but I know some people do Global objectives need to be known globally Right if you're going to put an announcement out there, it needs to be a very clear This is what's taken by the enemy team or this was taken by your team Right, it needs to be very clear and even then half the time the notification for fang tooth going down is like delayed by 10 seconds That like all or when it'll take until I get vision for the pop-up to come up on my screen to be like, oh Someone took fang tooth. I'm like 20 seconds ago. Yeah, you're right. Someone took fang tooth I wouldn't have come here if I've known that it's just so weird to me how the announcer doesn't Be exciting in any way shape or form like it's just me On the topic of objectives, how do we feel? I know an overprime When somebody got the prime I was scared I was like sucking my thumb in the corner because I was afraid of all the damage that was coming my way But in this one when I take prime I don't feel like it's a like uh, like it really does much more than keep my health up and keep my mana up It doesn't I don't know if I feel that oomph that prime has And for how hard it is to take on top of that The the difficulty to the power you get out of it means it's not comparable comparatively fang tooth on the other side of the spectrum the power you get out of the third fourth and fifth fang tooth For how easy it is to take is ridiculous. Like it's this weird It's kind of weird how hard it is or how easy it is for both of those objectives depending Um, for instance, thank you. I was really bad. I had a game I was a hundred health on kalari just came out of a team fight We killed the entire enemy team, but I was a hundred health I went in and soloed fang tooth from that hundred health mark went in there took fang tooth No problem walked into the duo lane a group of minions almost killed me Yeah Right like the fact that fang tooth didn't kill me at a hundred health But I six minions almost did enough damage to me to knock me out And I had the double jump and go envies to get out of there with my health Is wild Like that that to me says that fang tooth is not nearly as difficult as the benefits you're getting comparatively to prime especially I think predecessors neutral objectives are far more balanced than overprime's neutral objectives I was gonna say something similar. I Well, I don't think that there is exciting in some aspects, right? Like when you take like mini prime on op is super fun But that also reminds me a little bit of league of legends and I like that mechanic I like the idea of dropping it in lane and and you know using that pressure to take down a turret or an in him I think that's a super fun mechanic, but when you take prime big prime in in over prime you get that huge Across the whole map and it feels dynamic. I don't like it. I don't think that that's the end game Way that I want to play I much prefer actually predecessors Buff up my minions buff me up a little bit, but it's also not as exciting Given how difficult it is to take the buff, especially the you know early on in the game Um, and I also think and this is this is something that I don't know if chat or if you guys will agree The comeback mechanics are almost impossible and predecessors. I feel once you are down You're just it's just a slow grind until you're out because you will lose all map pressure And because it takes you don't get wards to the way that you should like, you know, like you do in other games You can't have multiple wards or at least I'm not aware of having multiple wards I think you can just have your your one that's already key bound that you get on the early game Or that would you first come in you could buy a century ward a d-word. Can you okay? I didn't know that but well now it could change things. So that's me being dumb um, I don't know just like going out to get vision is Way riskier because of the way the jungle is set up, right? There's so many more cutoff points so you can get caught out so much easier You're just if you walk into the jungle and go around a corner and didn't know that there was you're just fucking dead It's I don't know. It's just not as good from that perspective in my opinion. But and I said this earlier The the the opportunity is still there for them to improve on all these things And so that I'm still excited for the future of predecessor 9 100 agree with mangos Now that I've played both games a decent amount of hours I had because I didn't think this before I thought that there was a pops ability But I actually think that there is an ecosystem for both now I genuinely think that they're they're far enough apart in the way that you play the games And the way that they have vision of what they're going to do as studios that you can theoretically have You know games operating in both and you might have fun Depending on how you prefer to play that day jumping into one versus another Um, and their numbers have been pretty good. I was surprised they've been kind of checking each day You know, I think they're averaging like 4500 or something like that concurrent since they went You know, they've had spikes obviously higher and lower than that But I think it's it's averaged since they went into early access around 4500. That's good. That's yeah, that's just on steam That's not even an epic game. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I was really genuinely happy and surprised by that I didn't think that they would be putting out that much numbers and that was to me mean that people are enjoying the game The first day I think they they hit either seven or eight thousand I'm not sure Whereas fault their their early access was only steam and that only hit about five thousand And I know a lot of people are going to meme and be like, oh, well, that's fault fault had Almost as much hype around it as predecessor when it released like people Don't remember that but fault had a lot of hype around it whenever it released so I think it's a cool thing that uh that that predecessor was able to keep people coming in and keep people Purchasing their early access for their game because I do think they have the strongest base to build from I think they have a stronger base than over prime to build from but um Over prime has a stronger game to build from overall because they had just to have more features and everything but I think they do I don't know about in the east because it over prime in east is massive I think as far as their base versus here whereas the other way around for predecessor I think the west dominates They're probably their player base. That's not really what I was talking about. I was talking about just the game As their base game That they can iterate on and improve upon Is stronger than over prime space game that they can iterate and improve on Oh, see, I would say they're fairly easy to improve on it. Do you think that they're gonna like I know that their plan is to bring back all the paragon people Do we have any indication that they want to make the game because like when you bring back the paragon game That's great. Uh that we're getting back what we missed or that was taken from us, but for fortnight But the fact that like do is there any iteration or any indication that they are going to Build a game on their own after that or to expand upon it Or if it's just like a milk cow that they just they're just capitalizing on all the above probably actually Over prime has shown more indication of expanding Of actually wanting to do more right over prime in the past has had multiple maps an aram map And they've talked about about different things that they can do in that realm Whereas predecessor other than they've mentioned it. I think in the FAQ they talked about an aram map of like eventually That's pretty much all we've ever heard from them on it And so there there's a lot more Development work to be put in on that aspect then comparatively to over prime on the on the expansion side of things I think a lot of it depends on us right now As we're talking as we're bringing up changes that we think need to be made if they make these changes going forward If they make the gameplay feel more impactful if they make it a little more exciting when you get a kill Stuff like that like those are the improvements. I think they'll be making going forward But it's on us a lot of people will look at us and just say that we're dogged on On pred or dogged on over prime. They just think that they think that I work for every single one of these companies to put down the other bucking games at some point, but Um, we we say these things so that they can improve and let them know what they what they need to be improving upon And oftentimes the things I'm saying are reflections of the community's overall opinion, but um Yeah, that that's how they do it. That's how they improve So now I got to go into the thing that is probably my biggest gripe about the game Thus far that I frustrated with every single game and it has to do with the items and it's not what chat thinks It's not the item art. That's my biggest gripe though that uh, the items are bloated to hell and back It's ridiculous the amount of effects these items have not even the crest the crest being Having a bunch of stuff. I think is Cool because of what you have to do to level up the crest fine. I'll leave the crest out of this this synopsis Uh malady or malady depending on who you are is one of the most busted items on physical damage characters You explode minions so they deal them or you explode enemies that you kill so they deal damage in aoe You deal when they are under 40 health You delay burst of damage and then you increase that damage by 10 for every time you activate that effect And then you also get all of the stats of a tier 3 item on top of that Getting both of those together. You're not only popping the person themselves You make them explode on top of it when they die All you need is one good team fight where the people are grouped up together and you can blow up three heroes in one instant with one item That's ridiculous and a lot of the items are like that where they have multiple effects on them that together You could make these two separate items Make me build two separate items to get this But i'm now not being able to build four effects and one in two items now I can only build two effects in two items and it just it feels like they're insane insanely powerful In a lot of cases I oh good on top of that components are terrible Yeah, congratulations. You want to build a physical damage item you build short sword And you always build short sword and congratulations. You build short sword again Oh, and you know what one more short sword for a good measure What and they're all all the components are also 350 gold except for one I think For physical damage characters to be sure and that just feels terrible I constantly am going back to base with 250 or 300 gold Sure, I spend all my money It's like well, I can buy nothing because all of your components are exactly the same for all the items I'm going to build and that just doesn't make a lot of sense I want to address the milk buddies comment and chat about the cards. See that's what I liked about the card system Yes, two people could have the same card, but you could customize it your own stats to that card I love the old paragon card card system. But no, that's it. That's gone forever. I do believe Good reason to I love there's something in chat somebody said that apparently uh, uh A roadmap is coming out next week. So we'll actually have a better indication of where paragon's going Which uh something I did not know before we started this but It's one of those. Why are they not telling us that why is it have to come from someone in chat? Hmm, that's true. I think they said somebody said something And I don't think it was an official announcement I guess I'd have to go and double check in or somebody in chat can let us know But I think somebody's mentioned it in General chat of their discord Um that there was going to be a roadmap next week. I just happened to catch it I don't even think it was something that they put out put out what they should Kind of like how we got the over prime news this week. What the hell is going on that they're not just announcing this shit um, so I talked to you Mangus and viking about this. So wolfie. I'm sorry to suddenly bring this up on you But we I actually sent them the roadmap that they sent after their last test And looking at it the roadmap that they sent after the last test of what the things they were were important to work on We got two things being new heroes and a ui overhaul and mostly ui overhaul not really complete What where were the rest of the things player onboarding was on that list Um console was on that list and I realize they've mentioned consoles coming 500 times Right audio m mr. We got m mr. But it's kind of janky To be honest I don't know how much we're allowed to talk about what we've learned about m mr Because I don't think they've officially put any The m mr I I I've been dropping 20 to 30 kill games the entirety of early access Eventually m mr should level me out where I'm not dropping 20 to 30 kill games every game of early access Right that I even just from personal experience the m mr is not Either it's not fast enough to place me Or it is not doing a good job placing me one or the other I think it's not doing I've been playing against uh, some familiar faces constantly Um though I did have some games where I was playing against some fault pros And you know when you go to fault that gave me significantly a little bit harder than predecessor, so When they come over to predecessor, I'm getting I'm just getting piped on my lane all day And it's mainly because These guys are pros at fault. What what's a predecessor going to be to them? It's going to be like all duty compared to csgo, right? And I was fighting against the same people so the m mr system is janky I think it does need to get updated But it is definitely inputted because I'm still seeing some familiar faces that are at the same level as me However, I am getting those games where I'm just absolutely handed down on the solo lane because So they definitely need some fix them I I agree with m mr needs so much. I know they know that too, right? Like I don't think that they're they're oblivious to it I think it's just a very simple m mr currently just to get people in the games As quickly as possible and all that fun stuff, but I want to I want to go to something that's igor said because he said Speaking of clarity the item ui lacks clarity and the descriptions are terribly vague. I could not agree more I think that when it is again talking as a casual player. I'm not a paragon pro. I never had ambitions I'm almost 40 years old dude. I I'm just happy to hit buttons on time more times than not You know what I mean? Like I'm just looking for a good game that feels fun and I can scream at my monitor for Right now when I go into the items I I have no idea what the the clarity between each one Like there's no there's no uniformity of colors and fonts even even if the item art itself is is all over the place I don't care but make the font colors mean the same thing So if this is supposed to be a crit item make it orange if it's supposed to be like a lifestyle item Make it fucking you know what I mean make the font purple or so I don't fucking know do something to make it a little bit more clear What one thing means and also so again the the vagueness of the items themselves like okay Wait, what does this actually do? I one of the guys in our game yesterday was like hey, what are you doing man? You're sitting in the and I was like because I'm fucking reading items Because I'm trying to figure out what I want to buy because we're getting our buttholes stomped by three fucking tanks And we don't have an 80 carry in our game So I'm trying to figure out how I can try as how it's her to deal with these fuckfaces And I was looking through items and eventually I was like, you know what auto buy on I'm just fucking leaving me Just trying to you know do something because I was like it was frustrating I couldn't find what I wanted to find quickly enough and and I think that's a problem Because it's just not very easy To to type in or to figure out what it is also like for lifestyle items You have to type either omni to find the omni vamp items or you have to type life or lifesteal to find the lifesteal Yeah, I got I got your sense on that. I got your sense like hi me or main Why do we have omni vamp and lifesteal call it one thing and call it at the end of the day Like when I'm playing a magical ass, it's omni vamp But when I'm playing chimera, it's lifesteal and it's like there's no discrepancy or difference between it to like which one's better Which was what's the percentage differences? Uh, what do they scale off of omni vamp? It's probably for magical characters But just does a scale off magical damage or your mana or like there's no indication So I'm just like, uh, it says vamp. So I should be healing when I attack them Hopefully another weird thing ui wise is the coloration of damage Versus crits. So physical damage to crits is actually flipped When you're looking at your if you're holding control looking at your scaling Your physical damage scaling is in orange. Your crit damage scaling is in deep red When you're doing damage, your physical damage is red and your crits are orange Why? So when did you get hired for predecessor? That's why All right, they didn't explain that to me Why why who looked at that and didn't realize but your colors are flipped, right? You need to keep a consistent Pull of information across that if I'm going to know the deep red is crit Then I also need to know that when I see the deep red on damage that that means I'm critting Right, like I keep it consistent and it's just completely all over the place And the ui I mean I I said this back when the new ui was shown in the kalari gameplay. I hate it I I really really don't like the new ui I it doesn't really solve many of the issues they had before it just looks a little prettier and That bothers me I can't stand that I can't like reorganize in when you hit tab first of all Tab screen is way too big in my opinion when you hit tab and it takes over the whole fucking screen In like massive font like I I know I said I'm almost 40, but I've got good vision, bro I don't need to be fucking looking at everything at 30 fucking font in my face. Okay But the fact that I'm like an off lane and I look at myself And I want to quickly look because I don't want to sit there and you know Play where's fucking waldo for my opposite laner to see how I'm doing against them in farm or what items they came back from The shop with it's so frustrating that in 2022 at the end of 2022 going into 2023 With a multi-million dollar company that they don't have the ui fixed where you can organize or doesn't auto organize Hey, I picked off lane that fuckface picked off lane We should be on the same fucking plane with each other at least let alone me being able to move it around in case some Fuckface picked off lane, but he actually meant to be carry and they swapped I don't even the fact that they don't even have it to where it's one for one Just based off of the lanes you were assigned going into the game Like the game doesn't fucking know what lane because it gives me arrows So it's got to know that i'm there. Where's the fuck and i'm not a coder I'm not a dev But you explain that to me because why the fuck Do I have to play where's waldo every time I hit tab to figure out what my opposite laner is doing It'll be angry That menu is something i've been complaining about since their first test That's something other people have been complaining about since their first test But I even want to make a further comparison Of the of that tab menu both we talked about it last week with ethereal I think it was last week Maybe it was two weeks ago with ethereal and we've seen it with overprime Both of their tab menus also take up the whole screen However, what you're getting out of that is not only all of the player information You can still see through to the map at least a little bit You can see through to what's going on behind you and you have the full mini map on your screen The utility of hitting tab is way higher than what it is in predecessor When you hold tab in predecessor and you get to see 10 people in the most blown up giant version of what's possible there is just wild Yeah Yeah, um edgy serendiz or whatever your name is you guys are talking nonsense. I would explain The pictures the pictures piss us off calm down. Okay. Um So somebody said I think it was rodent setting chat earlier that uh Like looking at the two different discords He doesn't take if one shuts down that the players will go to the other I think 100% they will because because I saw all the core fans go to pred when core shut down And I saw all the pred fans go to fault then fault sucked us all the all the fault fans go back to pred And then yeah people people are people are fickle Yep, it's just so desperate for a paragon game. I don't think that they're going to be like, oh, if I can't play pred I can't play anything. There's no way I do want to bring up that man mangoes mentioned it earlier predecessor is being built for paragon fans. Yeah and That is for better or for worse Right. These are the same and I made this example. I think it was to you mangoes Maybe it was to both viking and man goose earlier this week This is the same community of people that stopped playing paragon in the first place that allowed it to die Right that this these are the fan base that they're fighting for which is fine If that's their choice, I'm not going to slight them for it But I'm just saying like they're These are the same people that abandoned the previous game and are now nostalgic for it and want it back Right, so that's there's a little bit of weirdness in there But at the same time it limits what we're seeing in terms of their branching out ability Especially when compared to over prime and now just before we started the stream I sent you guys a tweet from weekend the streamer weekend who was an ex smite pro a very large smite creator in general Who's played both over prime and predecessor now bought brought predecessor for early access and refunded the game Stating that his reasoning was it's not fun Right and that's his decision one way or the other but When you're looking at a smite player trying to come into this game One of the bigger competitors predecessor and over prime are going to have is going to be smite For the next little while. Oh 100 right that they're trying to sap players off of smite The a smite player as an ex smite pro coming to your game and saying it's not fun is a really Scary thing to start have happening and if it's built for paragon fans and smite people aren't welcome That's all well and good But that limits we've talked to in the past about fishing out of a pond versus fishing out of the ocean Right that limits them down to the pond Right they're only vying for the paragon fans and that's that's a scary thing to start seeing already in the game But I don't think a meta is specifically wanting to just make Paragon again. I think a meta's in-state goal is to have an improved Game of their own that is reflective of paragon. So I don't think that I think what it is right now is As close to paragon as you're going to get from any of these remakes But I don't think that's their in-state goal by any means and I think that's evidenced by some of the changes to the kids Like decker's kit now it's just stuff like that I want to say though like and I do get Jelly's point about you know having a a big creator, you know come in and refund the game I will say though. I also will One he's a smite player So already his opinion is a little bit watered down for me because I just I can't trust anybody who enjoys playing that Fucking game. Oh some shade. I just dude. I think smite's not a good game personally But the fact that he played it And had enough time to and I don't know if he was playing it on egs or on on steam But if he was playing on steam then he has to return it in under two hours And I just don't think that you're really going to get a very good Experience on these types of games Especially mobas that take a lot of time to kind of figure out the different items When you know the the different champions, especially if he's not super familiar with all the different champions You're not going to give the game enough time to really Be a game for you And and if you're just sitting there like I'd well, I know smite I'd rather just play smite and this game is boring in comparison to smite where I play that game all the time I'm a former pro Their their opinion starts to kind of mean less however to jelly's point If anybody is giving you bad press at this early stage and has a big audience and tried your game and said It's boring that's a problem And so I think they need to do something to counteract it They need to get some people this game with codes and say like hey play our game for You know a few hours play our game for like a week whatever it is and give it time Like you know like talk about what it's like from you know being a new player to you know But again with no onboarding it makes it super fucking hard for any of these brand new players to come in Especially whether with big audiences or not To garner that excitement to play and then again for me I was invested in coming into playing this game right like you know Not just because of ftm But just as a fan of the genre as a whole and I'm not having as much fun You know and I know there are some people out there who are Enjoying the shit out of pred and I'm excited for you that you got a game that speaks to you And and you're able to play it every day right now. I think that's fucking cool servers are open Play it But I think it's in a worse state than what where fault left off at and I think it bothers me When people were shitting all over fault and saying how bad it was and blah blah blah And now they're like on pred's dick and I'm like bro. You don't have anything that fault offered you You don't have anywhere close to the things like the skins are boring You know grucks to me. It looks like a fucking claymation figure running around on the map. You're awful It's just it's not exciting. It's not it's not fun. Now again I'm prefacing all this with the that I believe that that they are capable of improving and I'm excited again for that chance But they are so far behind where I expected them to be and again I'm just blown away by how bare bones the game is and and it really it kind of bothers me I feel like it was a little bit especially with them bragging about making a lot of money Bringing in some pretty big names. You know what I mean like, you know, and it just What have you guys been doing bros like, you know, like I know you have the capabilities So I did what you as a laser beam. That's what it is She's got a laser beam and that's that's that's what the six months went I will say that from what I know that The predecessor skins from what I'm told by my community. They're paragon re-skins. Oh, yeah They're not paragon re-skins. They're they're paragon skins that have been recolored. Oh, I thought Okay, yeah, like I see that and I'm just like You where you did a you did um a stress test like pretty much once a year So you had more time than anybody to sit down and grind working on your game And you're giving us content. That's if you want to give us all the old paragon skins. That's fine. Give it to us on day one It's very easy to implement. I'd imagine um, but you give a six and six are It's like there's no not even one skin is from your own from the ground up That's a little it's a little bit of a spit in the face in my eyes And so real quick I want to just touch on weekend real quick Weekend played the game streamed the game for at least eight hours So whether he could refund it officially on steam or not But he posted that he was going he wanted to refund it whether or not he actually was able to go through that I don't know and I just want to say too that I don't think that's a big deal that we could There's gonna be new mangus was gonna say that and here we go There's gonna be people that don't like bread like you give us a shit mangus fault proved that if you do not have a good solid impression on the off the start You are going to be screwed going into the your development in the future True, but I think red has a lot plenty of good solid support behind it from other streamers That's just if this is one dude. This is one smite guy And I've never heard of him before that. No, but that doesn't mean anything In this particular case, we're talking about one dude But if this one big dude is making that opinion, you know that there are plenty more behind it Oh, of course There's plenty of people that have not enjoyed bread and again, I'm fine with that When you have bad word of mouth spreading right if six months from now someone asked weekend and says Should I pick up predecessor or it just went free to play? Should I try it and his first impression is bad enough where he says no that game's not fun Don't play it. That's bad for you. That is uncategorically a bad thing for your game Yeah, yeah, it's bad. I just don't think it's as bad as you seem to be letting on Of course, of course anybody anybody that doesn't like your game is bad But I don't think one dude is going to sink the entire ship I'm not saying he's going to sink the entire ship, but it is a bad indication Right when when you've got high level players, right? Your game should be approachable at a higher low level, right? And right now you're saying you've got high level players that are unhappy because the game's not fun And you've got low level players that don't know what they're doing because there's no onboarding So where are you pulling from? Where are you fishing? What pond are you fishing out of right now? You're fishing out of the pond of paragon players that remember paragon have been following pred kind of sort of And that's it and they're going to give them positive praise no matter what that's a bad thing You when you have the people being critical of your game stop playing it. That's a bad thing Yeah, that's true I don't know I I do I think it's both to be honest I think I'm on on both sides of it I think it anytime you have anybody who has the space and big enough audience to talk bad about your game or tell people that They don't they don't think they should play it. That's never a good thing I don't think that the game is going to be make or break, right? And I don't think jelly's implying this that it's one creator of his size is going to break predecessor I think what what jelly's going into is more about The implications of it like what it could mean and uh, and I do think that there are there's a lot of reason to complain about the game in its current state and to have You know, we've been doing it this whole time strong feelings about it and if you're not invested like, you know, we are for this show for example You might just be like, you know, it's not for me. I'm fucking out and you might tell your whole audience Why you're out and they therefore could say all right, cool. I'm out also I also do want to address you smite kids listen, dude. I know you guys like smite and that's fine I didn't really like I played the shit out of smite on console and on pc And it's just not the game for me. Okay You like being Thor or Loki because you're an edge lord and you want to jump around and stuff like that That's fine, bro. Enjoy your fucking game. I don't care. I do agree though Somebody did say that they went to smite because it's on console That's still a big market that I think it seems like It seems like predecessors more Maybe closer to getting that done. I don't know. It's just the way they talk about it a lot It seems like that's something that they've been focusing a lot on and I do think that that would be Massive for predecessors especially once they're able to do cross-platform Because initially if it's just on you know One or the other I think it'll be a boost, but it won't be necessarily as big of a deal But once I add cross-platform, I think it'll be Well, in the interest of my effects Excuse me Let's move things along here. Sorry. Sorry We're spending way too long too long on this. Let's talk about um new patch. They have the new patch to fix, uh Some bug fixes so they they did have some crashing at first. They fixed that and then um, they moved the asian servers Which looking at the reviews almost all of the negative review the the negative views that actually made some sort of sense were from Either australians talked about there were no oceanic servers or from people on asian servers that had Horrible horrible ping and it was unplayable. So I'm glad that they fixed that that should shore up some of it. Um, as far as the reviews are concerned God, I hate steam reviews so fucking much because About 90 of the good reviews for the game were actually reviewing paragon and not predecessor They were just talking about how great paragon was and it's like come on man That's not going to help anybody looking at this game and then like 90 of the negative reviews You could tell we're over prime fans that one of the just kind of That that played the game with the specific intent of finding stuff bad so that they could put a bad review up and it's like come on like In between the lines there were a few like of the good reviews that actually lay down a pretty good solid recommendation for the game and there were some actual a few of the actually bad reviews that was like a You know, it's this it's fun But these are the things that are wrong with it. This is why I don't think you should you should pay for it now But maybe in the future it'll be good But those were like the very very small percentage of the reviews Then there was that one review that jelly found to some guy saying that predecessors stole overprime source code And I was laughing so fucking hard. I was like, is this guy old fucking crack with the hell How uninformed can you be? so I Want to talk about cyborg prototypes coming here. Pret is good, but should have been delayed. I completely agree I think that is probably this a really good synopsis of this of the game is good, right? Like when it's good It's good But they are missing so much and they're missing so much of those things that make it better That this early axis is just so bare bones, right? when you when you have competitive frameworks to work out on in terms of Overprime later on if you're a competitive player that wants to grind out and become the best Predecessors not the place for you, right? If you're a new player trying to learn where the game is Predecessors not the place for you if you want to spend money Predecessors not the place for you like there's nothing There's a bunch of different types of gamers and I've done a lot of research onto this with Ethereal in mind specifically, right? But the there are different kinds of players and you have to appeal to each of them, right? There's achievement hunters There's the competitive like people that want to be the best in the game. There's people that are there for style There's people all of those things right now They don't appeal to pretty much any of those categories in predecessor Because you can't there's nothing to continue going off of um In in that game comparatively to other games or overprime coming out next week Hey, koji. Thanks for buying a Jedi beer. I'll make sure he gets that shorty box. Jesus Christ Guys, I preface. I haven't gotten a shit talk in two fucking weeks. Okay. I got a lot of I got a lot of pent up You know going on here But again guys, I am not I don't I'm not a predator And that's something I want to go back to kind of what mangos was It was talking about because I think one of the things that has really really pissed me off Is these two camps that feel like they have to be the fucking white knights of their community and go into The other community and shit talk in order to feel good about their fucking game Like dude, that is such small dick fucking energy. I hate it. I went into the overprime On release I went into overprime and I jumped into general chat and I shut that shit down as quickly as I could I was like, you guys need to calm the fuck down Like you don't like pred fine. Don't fucking play it, dude Like it's it's that easy. Don't put it on your fucking machine Overprime doesn't need predecessor to fail for overprime to be good. Right. Yeah Doesn't need overprime to fail in order to be good The games need to focus on themselves and the communities that are in one camp or another Which I still think is a super weird thing to do. These are fucking, you know video game companies They don't know who you are bro. Okay, you're not you Standing and simping over these fucking studios is is really fucking weird. I don't understand and Going on and review bombing because it was happening to overprime too They were doing the same shit people were going into the games as pred fans and and throwing games Or putting in weird names that way they could talk shit about the game and it's just fucking cringe, dude What they do need what all these games do need is constructive criticism And it's increasingly harder and harder to offer constructive criticism with for either game Without the fucking horde of cult like followers of each game coming down on you To to act like you're you're a fucking you're you're talking shit. I'm not talking shit. I'm talking about how they can improve You see how that happens. Oh my gosh here we go Oh no, oh shit blood Let's go Um, you see every week in fcm's comments every single week without fail One of us is getting called Like that. We're just talking shit. We hate these games. Fuck the fuck you guys. You don't know what you're talking about every single week That's ridiculous. There's no reason to be making comments like that when we're giving constructive feedback And I think we do a really good job of providing that constructive feedback. It's not just this is shit. Fuck you guys You're shit. It's this is this feels terrible. Here's how I think you could fix it or here are a couple options to fix it I think that's super super important an analogy I'll make for like viking was saying about how going the camps existing for both different sides of the game That'd be like the call of duty players deciding that they only like infinity ward call of duties But the treyarch ones are the shitty ones. There are people like that dude. I know there are fucking weird But it's like it's all call of duty like you'd need to calm down, right? Like at the end of the day You're still playing your call of duty game It's okay. You'll survive the extra year before the infinity ward one comes out like goodness gracious It's just wild. You know, what's funny to me is that when paragon was out, I think I was just getting into college I think it was like 20, uh, like in my early to mid 20s But now here I am 27 28 all the people all back now all the people if you play a paragon back then and now it's 2022 almost 2023 You're probably my age 27 28. You're a grown man. You got kids You got responsibilities and your wife hates you and now you're going to come over here and talk on everything on the internet But like you're going to come to the internet and you're going to you're going to shitpost like What do you you should be a grown man by now? There's been a big difference of time here grow up be a little bit more mature You are right both games if they do separate themselves, which that's the route that they're going Uh, the route that they're going if there will be a place for both of them. I believe But anyway, we have to get to the next topic. Don't we? Did we do let's uh monetization for predecessor god I don't even know who want to dig into this can of worms right now predecessor again. It's just Yeah, it's true. Um, I keep it short. I guess I mean monetization It was exciting to hear them talk about it. Yeah, some really good stuff some really bad stuff That depends on how you look at it. Uh, good stuff. They're not going to have loot boxes at least not paid for loot boxes. So They are going to have loot boxes No, no, and don't say that they are going to have loot boxes if you don't know admitted to it They're going to have random free chests. That doesn't no, they didn't say random free chests It is a loot box, but I think it's it's meant to be as a the randomness of like getting something for free That you earn in the game. You can't call it what it is. It is a loot box But that's fine paid for the loot box, but they will have loot boxes Anyway in events too Like christmas events halloween events. That's fine though. I see yeah Again the free the free part not my problem Call it what it is Don't say we're not going to have loot boxes and then in your literal next sentence say but we're going to have random free chests I think well, okay, so this is again arguing the semantics of of early access type stuff Like I think it's just a word choice like the the idea of what a loot box means has is become You know the predatory gambling scheme that we're all familiar with in in loot boxes So I I think that them wanting to call it something that's not loot box is I get it from especially from a marketing standpoint But and I when I at least for me and again, I'm not the smartest person in the world So I but I took it for what it was it sounded like it was like Hey, this is a way for us to give you something free That's random and if you get something cool You're going to be stoked if you just get something whatever you don't care because it's free and I'm okay with that It's always the the the parts where you're having to put your locking content behind it that you have to pay for Or whatever and you don't have access to it. Uh, you know what I mean? Like it's just that's when it gets gross the the way that they described most of their monetization was boring But efficient I suppose like, you know, they're just going for mostly that you're just going to support the game by buying Stuff outright Um, I I'm very curious because I don't think they actually mentioned it And I'm curious what you guys think if whether or not they're going to go the route of having a premium currency That is like weirdly priced So it's like you pay ten dollars and you get like 1300 currency the amount that it takes to get the skin is 1500 You know, like it's like so you're always gonna they're definitely going to have premium currency We know that they're going to have premium currency because you get premium currency with your early access package Yeah, um But not yet. Okay. Just I mean, they're not gonna have paid for loot boxes. They will have random I don't think they actually said chests jelly. They just said random rewards. That's a 100% mean. Okay. Okay. Okay Anyway, they're not going to have paid for loot boxes and we know what that means when they say that They're not going to have the loot boxes that everybody fucking hates Um, what they will have that I don't really care for is they're they're going to be selling epic asset skins at full price alongside their own created skins And the reasoning behind it. I think sounds like a lot of fucking copium They're saying because they don't want to devalue The work of epic and that it would be hard for them to sell their skins for a higher price than the epic skins And I think that's just dumb That tells me they have no faith in the skins that they're going to make Ooh, that's a big take too. No, but truly you and I play League of Legends viking We sure do we both own many skins for the same hero or the same I own way too many fucking skins Same champion not not even just skins in general, right? I own every Akali skin in the game every single one That means that there was I found value and each of those skins to be worth to buy it One of those skins did not detract the value from another skin just because I owned one already Yeah, right and by saying that you don't want to devalue the skins that you're going to make in the future You're actually appealing to people that will theoretically spend less money on your game If if i'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, right? They're appealing to the people that are going to buy one skin That I play a ton of chimera. I want this one skin and i'm never going to buy another skin in the game Fine So they want to pick the best skin for chimera or the most cost effective skin for them And they're going to go that route now. There's players like me who will spend 500 dollars on every skin for chimera Who you are now snubbing because now I have to spend more for epic assets comparatively to Your own proprietary assets, right? Which is actually the more beneficial for your game I I so I want I agree the first of all I think it's and they knew it because they even put it in the announcement They knew that it was going to piss people off My biggest issue with it is that this It just not even like the cost of it the cost of it in comparison to what you're actually getting to me Most of the old paragon skins are boring. They're not new obviously We've anybody who's been in this community for long enough. It's already seen the undertow skin I thought it was cool when it first came out. I don't want it anymore I don't give a fuck about getting an undertow anymore Now I will say to kind of move this along because I know we spent a lot of time on predecessor The skin concept art that they showed looked interesting It looked cool Yeah, it looked really good Sighted to see what they end up actually putting in and how it looks on the game because The premium skins that we got right now as part of this stuff They were they're just to me. They're boring. I just don't care. I don't want recolors, bro I and and this is and hopefully doesn't offend our boy arma But this feels very similar to when we had that interview with arma on On partner panel where it's like you're paying for it because you wouldn't get the game You wouldn't have access to these without us and I hated that I hated it. I thought it was arrogant I thought it was a slap in the face to the community And and it just makes it feel like to me and that's like you think that we're stupid or something like that And I'm not going to spend the money on it, right? And I know a lot of people probably will I might spend money on their new skins You know what I mean? So it just feels like they could have done a better job One of the things I threw in as an idea into the creator was Why don't you put it as a pass then if you really need the revenue Then make it as like a Paragon pass or something like that where you have all of the epic skins You charge everybody like 10 to 20 bucks and over time They progressively unlock all the old paragon skins or something along those lines And you put like some of the really cool skins towards the end You know what I mean the ones that are like everybody's really gonna want to hunt for Now you have engagement You're giving a little bit you're getting a little bit of money And you have people who are excited to progress through that maybe especially newer players will be like Oh, I can buy this pass similar to the word. We all hate fortnight where I can eventually unlock some skins and I have them It it bothers me and it blows my mind that they're just gonna be like no You're gonna pay 20 fucking dollars for a you know a giddy and skin that's been out for seven years Fuck off the way I tried to explain it the way out I think it devalues the consumer consumer to a point because it's like if you walked if I had a shop You walked in I have a brand new lamp that I made and a used lamp that somebody gave me And somebody walks in they're like, how much is that brand new lamp 20 dollars? How much is that used lamp that somebody gave you 20 dollars? If I'm selling you a used lamp that I got for free For the same price that I'm selling a new lamp. Are you going to feel valued as a cost as a consumer? Are you going to feel like I'm doing you a favor? No, you're gonna feel like I'm ripping you off because I got that fucking lamp for free and it's used And now you're having to pay full price for it like Like I According to my um, uh, my manger steam. Yes, he does. Uh DME manager. We have to talk about theory. You Yeah We still have gun into over problem, brother I love that. Oh, no just on schedule here. Like, you know what maybe we need wolfie more often to keep us on schedule If we need to we could do a part two of this episode about predecessor and further Yeah, I mean, we'll be talking about predecessor far into the future, but yeah, let's go ahead move into over prime Let me actually change the fucking video this time By the way speaking of the video I hate that you did the video from us playing yesterday where we went into the throw pit without a jungler And we all just got oh did I do that to video you're showing up and killing us I'm still mad about that, dude. Sorry, bro. I just got to pick them randomly Um, so with uh with over prime the big news coming out of them Let me address this real quick over prime has been uncharacteristically quiet lately. Yes. Yes They have been very on the ball every week giving us something To talk about nothing this week of all weeks for them to give us something They didn't give us really much anything this week as I say that it'll probably it'll probably hit just after this episode but anyway, um Fuck it over prime in their discord ranger posted a picture of the ps4 dev kit And also said that they planned to develop for the xbox last week He did say that he sat down and talked with both sony Um and microsoft and that he had dinner with uh epic and some other stuff So this is exciting news because we did see about a year ago that they were developing for the ps5. They were playing Um thing meow, I think on a ps5 with a controller and that was that was fun That was cool to look at but um Now this is um showing us that they are also going to I didn't think they were going to be able to But they are going to be developing over prime poor ps4 and xbox, whichever the Probably the next generation xbox. I don't fucking keep tabs on xbox man I think to me that The having dinner with uh, sony microsoft all those kind of things is a way more final step than it is a first step Right, that's where you're going in and you're saying I have a product put it on your platform You wouldn't walk into those meetings, right? Especially with how many time how many games are being put on these platforms They're not taking a meeting like that with every single game going like, ah, yes You have a game concept for me. Let me know what it is. No They're they're want to see a product. They want to see it playable They want to see that you're doing the right moves. They've had a ps4 ps5 dev kit for almost a year at this point The ps4 and xbox one or an xbox dev kits We saw the images this week how long they've had them. We may not know Right, and this is something I was talking about with talking about with, uh, Windu and bearded last night is just because they announced something After something else does not mean in the time frame internally that that's when it was decided That for instance, they named changed a paragon the over prime They changed a lot of the gameplay features and then they announced the change to paragon the over prime Internally the name change may have been decided or wanted before the gameplay changes were announced They couldn't talk about it until everything was in place for it So they announced the other changes they had first and I would say I do that with ethereal all the time certain announcements that I'll make are Things that have been done more recently than other announcements I want to make but I need all the pieces to fall in place for those other announcements first Right the the time frame is not necessarily one to one to the announcement dates that we're hearing these things That's a good point. You know, they probably like six months ago. They're like, you know what? I know how to do it. We're going to knock them off their socks We're going to change the name paragon the over prime, but wait We're going to wait three months and then we're going to see if they if that hits harder than it would right now So they definitely sit on some of these topics. Yeah, absolutely Any good company will they'll sit on the more important things for bigger dates for themselves And they'll just throw it out at willy-nilly because they can yeah, I can confirm I knew about the name change way way before Yeah, well anybody else did I think They're very proactive also It seems like in paying attention to the community and and what they need to announce at the right times like The the how we all of a sudden like super last minute got found out about the another test And then we get you know during that we find out about, you know Preads early access and then very shortly after that we find out about op's early access Like were they really going to go into early access at that point? Or is that something that they you know reacted to knowing it's very interesting to see How they they do things but it also does seem like It's with with a lot of attention to detail that they they know the impact that it's going to have Them going into radio silence right now to me Is kind of exciting personally and and um while I had uh a lot to complain about when it comes to overprime I felt like this test while it was there's some parts of it that were so much fun And I really really enjoyed the new character so fucking cool Really really excited to see some new ip in in paragon. Uh the bugs were So bad the gameplay loop the gameplay loop after 20 minutes Terrible it's just god awful skins look so fucking good, bro Like you know, so there's so many things about overprime that it's like I'm Scalding hot and excited about and then I'm freezing fucking cold on like the the ranked system was like Like, you know, I'm not sure how I felt about that like, you know Now granted again a lot of it was bare bones Uh, but I'm very excited for for what they're gonna do and I think they're going into radio silence right now to Really hone in and get all this shit together. I hope so I hope so too because it's what four days away. I I have no idea what this is going to look like, but I'm counting. I'm counting. I'm excited to play overprime. I'm excited to see the differences between the two and like Like I know how seven overprime he like usually seven is like a character who's supposed to be um more Mid to late game, right? He's very weak in the early game and overprime Didn't feel like that now that could be an overturned issue or that might be the route that they want to take In pred he's a little underwhelming from my experience. Maybe I'm just bad at him But in fault he was trash. You had to sit there for 15 minutes before you had like you could do anything Um, so that's my personal I'm going to be playing both to see the differences between the two and I'm going to shit talk both of them I really like pred if that's your several I'm going to say that right now I was going to say actually so You know not to go back too far on pred, but I love that they give stacks on all of his abilities That is such a huge quality. The q though still the q damage is too low It needs to one shot after in my opinion. No, it does a lot of damage to to people But I think this is a whoa like do not Take 500 damage from one siphon from Yes, yes, we want 900 damage from millions. I feel like it's too low Especially early game and given that that's supposed to be his spam like a nasus to be able to one shot stuff It's way too inconsistent, especially when you start thinking about some of the ping issues that people are having Sorry, I know I'm going off But I think the idea behind this is the pred's version of sef is So cool if you're a hardcore severog fan, and I think it's better than over prime sef Even though it doesn't look as cool as over prime sef Yep, I agree. But um Yeah, so I mean that's Huge news with the dev kits though huge fucking news. That's a huge Um new pool of people to pull from for these games We just don't know how long it's going to take before they before they get there And that's un fucking fortunate because that's what everybody wants to know is console win console win console win But we don't we don't know Hopefully it'll be soon and um I know I know bearded is excited bearded I know everybody keeps calling you the bearded viking now But I know uh, I don't vikings excited for it for console I you know me and I I might you don't get the rant. What do you need? What are we talking about jelly? Oh, fuck. Um, I haven't been here for two weeks, man Exactly jelly got got so many rants on like both last ftms because there was no me interrupting him He just got to sit there and talk and the guests that were coming on god bless them They were super nice, but they didn't say shit I was listening to jelly knees. He went on like a 20 minute talk with nobody fucking interrupting him and you know Now you know what it's like Now you know what it's like jedi to be able to show it to you I don't want to be here anymore. Let me out Here we go. Ten well hat theory. What if they announced console this week? overprime That would be insane They're sitting on it and like Tuesday they go. Guess what early access drops Thursday on console two. No way I just don't think so. It's so hard to get early Please god overprime gods. Please bless me. Okay foil hats jedi you say that But it's also kind of fucking hard to get the ps4 dev kit now You're supposed to only be developing for ps5 Like I don't know what goddamn dick they sucked to get that to happen, but I I that was a huge. Okay. So as much as I give console players shit I know as much as anybody else how important it is for paragon to get onto console Okay, I get it. I know that there's a lot of players that really really want to play the game I don't know why I think it's way better on pc. You have more control. Whatever dude You play the game. However, you want to play it the fact that they got ps4 Is massive dude so fucking huge because nobody has a fucking ps5 Okay, unless you're jelly knees and you went somehow to a walmart out in the middle of fucking nowhere And got one because they just had it on a back shelf because nobody fucking buys video games out there Now you got it the same way. I just said that they got their rights to the dev kit Sure I don't know but all I'm saying is it's a the fact that they're going to bring it to ps4 and ps4 is I think the Largest owned console at this point. I think it beat out the 360 or something like that Oh switch bigger. Okay. So getting it on ps4 is massive and Then mentioning xbox I don't know if any of these games ever made it to xbox, right or Paragon didn't oh paragon did not yeah, right? So As far as the market is completely untapped from a paragon perspective assuming xbox players have not moved to pc As far as other other overprime news though, they just did redid their ping system to make it a little easier for you to know Who pinged which seems very unexciting after they talked about The dev kits and discord Maybe mangus and viking will actually listen to my pings this time. I won't need to 500 ping a plate Motherfucker. Oh look, we're going to prime spirit Let me tell you We get into this conversation every goddamn time Jelly acts like I don't listen to his pings. Who used galaxy grief to literally Fucking curve a ricketer around a corner and jump in front of a rampage rock to save your ass Who did that? Did I ping you for that? You didn't have to ping me because i'm there for you I'm getting a rock in my face. Please help me Wolfie you said you wanted to have like a crew of guys to play with dude If you play with us like it's almost 90% jelly knees just yelling at us to do stuff Like if jelly knees could reach through me and mangus and play on our mouse and keyboard at the same time as being able to play on his You can be the happiest fucking person on the Never in the right place at the right time. Well, never mind communicating the right things at the right time We sing his butt and it doesn't matter. That's what we were supposed to fucking do But yeah, if i'm carrying you. Yeah, you're supposed to say I'm over I'm over on the solo lane staring at health bar so that I can last hit to get a soul That's what I little I'm down on that health bar. I don't care if you're hitting me I don't care if there's three man coming. They can come after I get the soul Well, jelly knees will come in there take your side buff You're failing a gank the off later perspective. I love it While you're at half health and he's at full health. He'll come take your your green brain to start a fight apparently, okay Well, let's uh, let's uh move on to ethereal. Let me uh switch up the video here What's there we go? Ethereal Ethenol ethyl ethyl Ethereal oh guys. That's why I I asked to be here. This is so I can get in on the theory You gotta you gotta be here. You gotta say it weird. We don't we don't say Oh, I'm already a leg down. No, I'm sorry. You're you're fucking it up You see There you go, no, no, no, no, don't bring crypto into this Crypto little boxes one tell me um So ethereal you guys that they gave us some new images of some item art Which is for their spears if you didn't know with ethereal um The different types of items like a sword will have certain stats All swords will have those stats a spear will have certain stats all spears will have those stats Pose they're the same way. So that's a really good Way for the items to actually Indicate to you what it's going to do for you. Um, and it It takes a while to ease into like a ethereal is a very difficult game to learn But that's one of the things that are going to help new players when uh, when they're they're searching through the shop They can quickly find what they want just by looking at the photo of the uh item and these are really cool items ethereal You're jelly you guys as artists always just knock it out of the park with everything they do whether it be item art background art The the the skins the the hero design. It's all fucking cool as hell. These eyes are really cool So jelly, what can you tell us about these spears? uh, dude the so There is some changes coming with the some items specifically the spears and the axes Are gonna have some changes coming to them that will go more into more detail in a few weeks about But with those changes we needed more spears So a lot of them are they're kind of flipping rolls a little bit in terms of what stats they were offering Uh, for instance axes before we're offering physical penetration But a spear Having physical penetration kind of just makes more sense Right, so switching that stat across so the spears having the physical penetration is one of those changes And like I said, we'll get into more of what those other changes are in a little in a few weeks But with those changes, we needed more spears. So we had to get more art for them We didn't have to buy them from an epic asset store. So we're moving forward with these item arts I mean mangas you complimented the artists. So we have artists But yeah, absolutely these spears look incredible. I love all of them This is these spear when they got sent to us internally All of us kind of got into a group channel and we're like, holy crap These spears look so good like the little details. For instance, I think it's refined spear the tier two spear that's in there Um, it's got a little crystal around the Pole section of the spear if you look you can actually see the pole of the spear going through the crystal The little details are in The item art that you can see how it's actually going through the gem of the That's on the blade or on the spear itself And it's that kind of stuff that I love Dealing from our item art and there are the artists themselves is they take every detail into account That they want to make sure if it's if it's a well worn blade They want to make sure and put like a little bit of etching on there a couple chips and like really the quality is there When it comes to the item art and I love every time we get new art. I'm really excited to see it every single time Uh, I like they both are my end skifter are talking about well wait should it add rain? Maybe it should I love it. And it's super fun I I do want to say something and then I want Wolfie to jump in because he's obviously, uh new to Ethereal and getting a chance to ask some questions Um, but I I want to talk about the item fidelity because that was something that we gave a hard time about on on predecessor And I would even argue an over prime too item fidelity is so Critical for new players being able to quickly see that one thing does something very similar to the other thing Is massive and I love that that's an intention to detail Uh for the price or for I'm sorry for for the real team because it should be a bigger Thing for all of these dev studios and it's Hilarious that the smallest of the dev studios is the one that's championing this And they do look amazing Yeah, looks like you're building the the item to the description and not just building an item and then coming up with a description Yeah, the vast majority of the time we have the item completely designed what stats it has what the effect is going to be And then it's given to the artists so then from there they can go and say like, okay If this is the idea we're going for this is kind of how we can make that design look And I think that's incredible and in addition you were talking about item fidelity It's also the items get more ornate the higher tier. They are the tier ones are just a basic wooden spear, right? You're not expecting a lot from a basic wooden spear. You're a deer. How do you say that dirge? Yeah, okay, that one's a cool changes. Okay, there we go Um Right being a tier two It's a little more ornate than a wooden spear But it's not nearly as ornate as the tier threes are with the effects coming off of them and all the cool little bits and bobs Unattached A lot of cool the the fidelity across even tiers not just items themselves Is also really consistent. Are these already up on socials or will they be? Yep, they're all already up on socials. You tube the whole nine read it So Wolfie, what did you think of ethereal because you haven't played it yet? But I guess you've probably seen some videos and stuff one of what's your overall thoughts on the game My overall thoughts is that it's exciting to see immoba try something different than that's different than others Uh, well, that's drastically different compared to others when you told me when I saw it Someone said, uh, I think it was on your video mango. It's just a 6v6 and I was like, well Immediately I was like, what are we doing two two and two like I thought back in the old paragon days We're gonna give you chimera and we're gonna give you But um, uh It's I was like six How does that work? And I was afraid that it was going to be like overwatched and it's just one lane everyone is the shitfest But instead like the double jungle is a unique idea. That's interesting to me Um, the the the verticality that some characters can fly and some characters can't I hope that gets more expanded out And more fleshed out. I think that's some of the coolest things is to have characters Be different in mobility wise Um, so overall it looks Like it's actually trying to build on its own image instead of just trying to copy on the it's a MOBA We have items we have the sometimes cool abilities and we have skins It's it seems like you guys are really branching out to prove your own place and uh payment in the MOBA genre Yeah, well said. Yeah, I will say too many too many damp towers goddamn. There's five towers in one lane I I saw that and I was like there's no way they have to be testing tower damage one lane hang on There's two towers and a spire so it's the conventional three tower Lane set up for you. It wasn't always like that though build Yeah, it was an old it was like that the old build there were three towers that aspire I saw that and I was like, I don't have enough attention I can't do it No, you gotta think a tower every five minutes. Let's go. Come on. Hurry up Yeah, someone tells me 10 minutes and you don't have four towers down l four to ten I can't do that. But um, yeah my initial uh impression is that it's exciting to see it and I'm I want to get my hands And I want to get my tests on it, but um, they test win Exactly. That's another good point is I was going to bring up is like I don't know about the correct Way to get my hands on it like even if I don't know any of the creators or the devs or anybody As like a viewer, how would I find a path into it? Is there a plan for that or is it still to be announced? Yeah, he doesn't he doesn't know any of the devs. No, no, no No, I think he's saying from the perspective of somebody who doesn't know any viewer. Yes. Yeah, it's fine. No, it's it's fine You know, I mean he did come and drop 10 gift subs in my street in the other day So, you know flattery does get you everywhere. So I mean Apparently blood under trying to get back into the discord. So there you go. He said even tried to make out with you or something like that and I'll feel about that but uh, she might not have a choice, I guess We need the money She doesn't see the money you suck a dick to get a ps5 But yeah, that's I'm super excited to see where the game goes for sure and what I want to know is I wasn't ethereal based on building off of the paragon assets to start. Wasn't that the intended intended direction? No, so we never wanted to use the paragon assets. We did use some of them as placeholders Just while we were getting our own assets made or finding other options Um, but going forward like from that point where they started to use those we've been slowly phasing them out Right to the point that I don't we have very few if any paragon assets in the game anymore I think they've all been changed out at this point Yeah, that's a common mistake people make because they because it they started development alongside like core and predecessor and stuff Yeah, they that they were like a paragon project. They never had anything to do with paragon In fact, I think the the original creators didn't play paragon at all like that A theory has nothing to do with paragon really they just use some of the free assets at one point in time And I think all you guys just really use was the chonkers with some of the jungle buffs It's more back in the way early days. Yeah, yeah, even most recently. Yeah, the the chonkers I love that you called the chat them chonkers in the Brilliant Brilliant, that's what they are to me now But also guys, yeah in the chat there is a patreon for ethereal if you want to do that I believe mangu says the link in the description below And what does patreon get you for those who are in the not know? So currency that you can't use Jesus christ, thank you. Oh, no Patreon gives you a cumulative reward system So you can pledge however you want five dollars a month and through that you'll gain access to the game You'll get in access to exclusive skins currency Things like that There's a whole post going through all the different awards you can get For being a background patreon as well as you get early access to information So right now we're at least a month ahead on any information that's going out to the community at large So there's a bunch of posts on there that nobody in the community has seen yet That is exclusive to patreon and those slowly roll out and that kind of stuff nice Everybody asked, uh, when are ethanol gotta add more towers to the lanes? Uh, right now. I'm gonna go in there and more towers Five coming back. Wolfie said he wanted more towers. So I'm gonna make sure we get it done I need to slap this shit out to some towers. There's only one million per lane, but For a wave, but there's you are the meaning The patreon gives you access to the game you mean when the game comes out or currently they can go in Oh, okay, because give me a little rewards build up so that you get a key on early access release Because early access will be a paid release. We will say that right now Can you just buy early access? You will be able to just buy it outright when it comes out Yeah, right now the only way to access it is just through the patreon on release We do have a just direct purchase path as planned as well Good to know I think that's gonna about wrap it up for this week. It was it was a spicy one this week, of course, but uh Let's start wrapping it up State our final thoughts plug anything that we want to plug Wolfie you're our guest any final thoughts on everything we discussed tonight and uh Let her by know where they can where they can catch you or they can watch you and all that And why you never want to come back because no, no, absolutely not Um, uh, my initial final thoughts is I'm glad to be on the show. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it Thanks for being out to someone smaller like me and being able to have me on I appreciate it. Um predecessor Does need work, uh, but it like I said before it is what I expect from an early access game There is some slimy stuff in there, but um, hopefully with bigger better changes. It can be overlooked Um, I mean if there's slimy stuff in there, I would have described as slimy um and Uh, as far as overprime. I'm waiting. I'm counting the days I just need to get my hands back on it because like even though the items are broken that I could use an item And heal like a fountain like I'm standing in a base and that makes no sense or nabash can heal An entire team throughout a team fight the entire time is insane, but I was still having fun Um, and I was still enjoying myself And I wasn't and I was having so much fun that I couldn't really get mad And yeah, there there was some bs, but I like it was such a small Section or second or maybe five seconds of refraining on it. I was like, ah, who cares? I can go back to killing stuff. Um Uh ethereal, I'm glad that we I I now know that there's more of a accessible route to get my hands on the items And the art look insane Like I said, I hope that you guys keep that idea of building Into building an item off of the description instead of the tail end way because I think that's a great way to start It'll help give your items uniqueness so that when even when somebody who's new who doesn't know how to play the game Or doesn't know how to play MOBA you call out an item that item stands out enough for you to recognize it And to know it offhand the next time going forward Um, and yeah, that's about it. That's all I have working everybody catch you Uh, twitch.tv slash mike wolfie Link down in the description below already Give him a watch give him a follow. It's free. And if you would enjoy him give us up Oh And Viking jedi Oh, it's my turn Uh, no honestly guys, I miss you. Thank you again, uh for everybody who sends kind messages You know asking about me. I really really appreciate that. You can follow me on twitter still And also here on youtube Where I do stream the games every once in a while I do plan to stream it a little bit more especially over prime Because I just enjoyed that game more. I'm excited to see what this next version of it looks like And I think yeah, that's that's about it man. I'm stoked wolfie was here dude. Thank you for being here, bro You're you're uh, oh very welcome addition. I think you had some some fun stuff to say and thank you for letting me rant your ears off Because uh, maybe for two weeks That's it for me. I know. Yeah. Yeah jennies I just want to remind everybody that man goose is a man who randomly yells and forgets the name of stuff and also done Um I am happy to always be here guys. It's so much fun I'm excited that these games are finally coming out and we're going to see them in a more consistent pace and pattern Uh, the iteration is what I'm most excited for for these games, right? Where we've talked about when we did beta males We talked about where will these games be in six months two years, etc In time frame and I'm really excited to see where both over prime and predecessor are In that amount of time and even the theory on top of that, right? So I'm really excited for that but you guys can watch me stream on twitch and youtube when I stream to youtube again and uh, yeah I'm one subscriber away from 800 subscribers on youtube. I saw that today. There you go. Nice I think that's a good thing by the way. Sorry to cut you off real quick man goose But the the three six months nine months thing year from now thing I have a lot more excitement For both op and pred than I than I initially thought I was going to I thought for sure that it was like The the uphill battle was so high for both of these studios That it was that there might not even be a conversation a year from now But I actually think that both studios to their own credit have A a path for that that is is less steep than I thought and uh, and I'm so excited as much as we were Or I was given pride a hard time. I think it's because I think pred can Meet the expectations going forward The way that I had hoped that they would have already had met them and I think it's just more about the disappointment than That they weren't there yet I have to wait for it versus You know where op feels like I'm not necessarily waiting for the features. They just need to be ironed out Um, so anyway, sorry, that's my last good way to put it But yeah, thanks everybody for coming out tonight. This is a spicy episode. It was a A lot of conversation I know a lot of people's um, like we we put out a lot of different opinions and somebody said in the chat Much much earlier that it seems like some of them were biased. Yeah, that's why there's Multiple of us so that we can try and kind of iron that out a little bit But um, I do appreciate everybody in the chat that's watching right now And I appreciate anybody watching the video that gets uploaded later But for now, this is the for the minions crew signing off you guys. Have a good one Remember to like and subscribe comments on the video man. Go jelly needs