 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today we're talking about expanding eSports audience entering into the mainstream. With me is Ryan Harbison, Director of Business Development at ClearBridge Branding Agency. Welcome, Ryan. Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. This is great. All right, so tell us about ClearBridge Branding Agency and what you do there. Yeah, so, you know, we're out here in South Jersey a little far from you guys. And we've got offices in Philly and Chicago. And really, we are a group of industry vets that have come together to really start something special. So, you know, we are a full agency. So what we do is we tell stories. So we are developing campaigns for our clients, figuring out what the branding and the strategy looks like, moving on to kind of who that target audience is and what's the message to find those people and then really execution. So TV, radio, video, SEO, social web, whatever makes sense to kind of get in front of the right people. So it's great. Right. And I understand you have a very unique background in eSports. Yeah, I've been in the eSports world kind of before it was even called eSports. So my career has kind of been all over the place. I started in the retail space. So Funko Land, GameStop, GameCrazy, which is not really around anymore. And, you know, we team up with our Sony reps doing like home run derbies, doing like Halo competitions, running huge Madden tournaments for like Madden 2002. So a long time ago. And, you know, I've played games all my life. And, you know, I was a developer for many years. So I've got two games published on Nintendo DS, a bunch of stuff on the app stores, and then I worked for a couple of publishers out in the area out here. So I got about 100 games under my belt for the Sony and Nintendo platforms, really kind of the life cycle between Game Boy Advance all the way to kind of the end of PS2. So you have a very specific background in eSports that leads you to understand your clients a lot better in the eSports space. So who is the eSports audience? Right. I mean, that's a great question. And I think it all it all depends on, you know, what you're promoting. Right. So and I think it comes really down to the platforms that you're looking to kind of tell the story to the audience. Right. So every platform is a different audience is a different message. And, you know, what we're seeing is, you know, the younger audience, kind of the younger millennials into the the Z generation is really where it's at. And, you know, they live a lot on TikTok and Instagram. A lot of Reddit, too. That's kind of where that audience is living these days. But I mean, there's a lot of opportunity for kind of the the older millennials and the kind of the younger Gen X that all kind of grew up playing games and really are kind of parents to the kids that are playing a lot of the eSports stuff that's out there because, you know, everybody that's kind of under 45 and under grew up playing games and loving games, like my brother has a son who's like six. And I mean, that's what they do for fun. Lego games and Mario and all that. So we're seeing kind of this new dual generation of parents who love and grew up playing games and now their kids are growing up playing games as well. So is there any role for TV and radio? And for print ads anymore and branding for eSports? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a lot. I mean, we're seeing stuff on TV already. So ESPN is doing a lot of Rocket League and I believe some overwatch here and there. So audiences are starting to come be more aware. I think the mainstream is part of the the growing education issue with eSports is that a lot of people hear the word eSports and they don't really totally understand. And I think a way to do that is to find out where that audience lives and explain to them kind of how eSports works and the mailbox is dead. So mailbox is a great place to kind of be able to have a nice little direct mail piece that is kind of coexisting with other campaigns at the same time. Right? So if we're going to do something that's going to be direct mail, we're also doing email blasts, we're also doing search retargeting and then really focusing on the platforms on the social side that makes sense. So we kind of want to tell that story across multiple platforms and hit the same audience in different mediums. Now, when you say the mailbox is dead, OK, I kind of agree with that. But, you know, it's interesting because we really don't get very much mail anymore. I mean, it's very, so if you're getting hardly any mail, would you think that maybe the mail could be something you could use? Because no, you're not getting anything else. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's the same thing where we get we get circulars, we get like clippers, we get like the coupon stuff. And then I mean, I don't know about you, but it's just credit cards all day. I mean, and that's that's really all we're seeing. And then maybe some bills from like actual real people that you have relationships with. So, you know, a nice piece of direct mail that it kind of explains or promotes an event that you're at. Right? I think that's kind of where it's at is the promotion of events that are happening more in a local level to kind of bring those people out. And, you know, I think what we're seeing is with the generations kind of being together and growing up playing games and now the new generations playing games, eSports is starting to kind of have a little bit of like a dance recital feel where like if your kids in the fortnight, you're like, I got to go to this eSports thing and I don't really care about fortnight. Right? And I think we're going to see the evolution of the industry happen that way, where it's going to kind of have to cater to multiple generations in order for the parents to really get involved and understand that it's more than just watching people play video games. So like if you're if you go to a tournament where your son or your daughter is playing in like fortnight or Rocket League, but at the same time, they have a station in the back that might be Mario Kart for Nintendo 64 or GoldenEye. All of a sudden, myself as, you know, a parent would be like, OK, well, you guys have fun with your fortnight. We're going to go play GoldenEye and I'm going to tell people no odd job because I mean, that's the rule, right? So when we talk about a mainstream audience, what is that? Yeah, I mean, it's really the integration of pop culture into the industry itself, right? And I think that that's going to happen when a couple things change, right? So I think the focus right now is really PS4 and up, right? And only a handful of titles. And I think what we're we're seeing is that there is a lack of PS3 and down, and there's so many games that people would play in the competition space or even be part of leagues for that matter, right? And I think what we can see is a lot of people can start this kind of treating it more like a rock concert than anything, right? So we have the main show, which is called Duty or Fortnight or whatever it is, right? But we have an opening and a middle act, right? And maybe that opening act is a speed runner, right? Because that's part of the world, too. So maybe our opening act is someone that can beat Ninja Gaiden 2 in like nine minutes and we get to watch that live and that happen, right? And then maybe our middle act gets like 25 minutes and they play Hitman, one of the new Hitman games and they do everything. They get Silent Assassin, they do all the objectives and all the challenges. And then we go into whatever the main stage is. And that's going to really help that generational gap that I think is out there. But, you know, there's no reason that we can't have things like, well, I play Super Dodgeball for NES and we have a Super Dodgeball League and all we play is Super Dodgeball on NES. I think that's going to help kind of bring it more mainstream. But I think what really happens is when that older generation is involved in games, because a lot of these people that play games on their phone don't consider themselves gamers, but they spend 10 hours a day playing wards with friends or quarkle or some farm game or bejeweled or whatever it is, right? And I think when those people start to kind of be brought into the mainstream, you're going to see it. And I think what happens is when you've got like Kathy, who's in Nebraska, who is one of the greatest Tetris players you ever seen, but she's 72. And now, all of a sudden, she's on Good Morning America and she's part of an eSports team that plays Tetris. That's when people, I think, will really start to think of it as more than just watching people play games. And, you know, it's interesting because I do play a lot of things on my phone and I don't even really think of that as gaming. And then I have been doing this show. I've really redefined that and think, OK, that is gaming. And it's just kind of different. We, you know, you find that a lot of people in a lot of different age groups, they're gaming, but in a different way, 100 percent. And I think part of it, too, is we have to realize that, you know, the mobile gaming world is more of the revolution of the new arcade machine. I mean, that's really what it is. So, you know, we have these people that want to just pick something up, play it and leave. And, you know, if you have somebody that's playing Candy Crush and you're like, oh, cool, you're a gamer, too. And they're like, no, I play Candy Crush, you know. And I think that's the that's the difference of kind of where we're seeing things happen then because they think automatically if you don't play Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto or Halo then you're not you're not a gamer. Sure, sure. And so what are ways for eSports to reach a mainstream audience? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a lot of it is is educating and telling and telling the stories, right? I mean, like, look at some of the things that are out there and it's great pub, but it's it's up to some of the leagues, I think, to kind of take the take the the the horns on that stuff. Like, you know, the kids that won that Fortnite competition a couple of years back and like was 2019, you know, they made more money than the guy who won Wimbledon. You know, that's that's crazy. And I think there's a lot of that stuff going on out there. I mean, look at the the championships for that go on in like South Korea. I mean, there's 120,000 people. That's like a college football Texas stadium kind of thing. So I think the audiences are there. I think the biggest issue is, you know, there's there's a lack of education that's going on. And I think that that will that will happen in time as people become more aware of eSports and, you know, anybody that's seeing like this stuff on ESPN is like, why is this on ESPN? It's like, well, you watch football every week, watching people play sports because they're better than you. I mean, it's the same mentality. It's just understanding what eSport is. And it gets, you know, it gets murky because it's like eSports is more of like saying I went to a sports convention, you know, and it's like, well, what sports was there? I'm like, well, there's basketball and baseball and field hockey and badminton, you know, it's so I think the eSports label kind of encompasses everything. And it's kind of having to explain like, OK, well, this is the way it works. There's a developer and then a developer makes this game. And then there's a publisher and the publisher then has a league and each game is its own league. And then it kind of people kind of stop listening. So I think there's got to there's an organic way to kind of tell that story and highlight these teams. I mean, you look at teams like 100 Thieves and the Misfits down in Florida. I mean, these guys are doing they're doing big stuff and they've got teams that play multiple things. So you're seeing them become more mainstream, especially on the tick tock space. That's really where there's a lot of stuff. And YouTube is really blowing up now that some people are getting kicked off a Twitch and, you know, like with Dr. Disrespect on YouTube only, he's really just creating and bringing people into the YouTube space that might not even know what eSports are. And it's that entertainment plus playing, which I think is going to separate a lot of people and bring them in to be able to kind of enjoy what they're doing. So. Sure. So how do you help companies embrace the space? Especially the ones that aren't really familiar with eSports. Yeah, I mean, so I think for what it is, it's kind of what we talked about earlier. It's it's understanding the strategy, right? So like, who is who are we trying to tell a story to? And then really it starts with like, what is the story? Like, what are we trying to do? Are we trying to educate people? Are we trying to grab the audience that we already have? Are we trying to bring a new audience in? Or are we trying to really help that either that league or that team or that industry grow? And we want to tell that story that's consistent across the platforms and really engage with those people. So, you know, really finding out quick stuff, either like, you know, the best content on TikTok is seven seconds. But that doesn't translate as well on YouTube because we want to tell a little bit more of a story and a future app. But we can take that video footage that we shot on YouTube and then we can cut that up and throw it on Instagram and throw it on the TikTok. So that when we we know where these people are living and when they are out there, we're kind of bringing that content in and really pushing that out to the right people so that they can see, you know, who they're interested in, what the what the story looks like. And really it's the audience because there's so many different places. Everyone lives online and the and the online traffic is just through the roof and out of control now. And it's it's not going away anytime soon. So how does Clearbridge differentiate themselves? I mean, like, what is your value proposition for brands? Yeah, I mean, so what's great about us is that we're a group of industry vets. So that's a huge part of it, right? So, you know, our VP of digital is an expert writer for Forbes. Our VP of strategies, the national campaigns for KFC and Taco Bell. So, you know, we have the experience of running national campaigns, but we also are here to kind of be able to be more, you know, approachable than some of these giant firms in other big cities. You know, we we have the experience and the value we bring is our knowledge of the industries, you know, what we see a lot of it is, you know, 70 percent of a lot of the advertising campaigns are similar because it's it's a lot of the same mentality. But what it is is that 25 to 30 percent that really changes based on, you know, what we're telling and what the strategy looks like and then really that execution on the platforms that make sense. Sometimes TV makes more sense than, you know, you know, advertising on Reddit. It all depends on who we want to get in front of and how we can find those people and where they exist. And what about non endemic brands? You know, yeah, like they might not seem very authentic in space. So I think there's a couple of things, non endemic, right? So there's there's two different ways to look at it, right? So there's non endemic getting into the industry because guess what, they need CPAs and they need lawyers and they need financial advisors and, you know, they need all that stuff. I mean, we've heard too many stories of people being on Twitch and then saying, hey, let's one of you one for twenty bucks and they've got all their money in PayPal and then they freeze their accounts and now the kids don't have any money because they didn't have it and like actual like bank accounts or with advisors. So I think that is a huge part of it, right? And what we're going to see is two things. One is the people that understand this and see the money. I mean, we're looking at a seventy six point eight billion dollar industry that in twenty twenty one made more money than North American sports movies and music combined. And a sports alone is a very young industry at like two and a half billion dollars. So we're going to see those people that understand the service element is there for them to come in and kind of make themselves, you know, part of that world. And then I think the other thing is that we're going to see tons of partnerships. I mean, we're going to see partnerships with some of the big firms and in every industry coming in and sponsoring these events. You know, it's going to it's going to be as big as like a UFC kind of thing where, you know, there's huge money that's being in there because they know the eyeballs are going to be there. And, you know, if anything, during all the craziness, games and streaming has been up more than anything because it's like, hey, I'm home, I might as well watch somebody play something. And I think that's when you see some of those bigger corporations, Fortune 5, 1000, some of them are going to start to see it. I mean, just over here in Philly alone, Comcast is huge behind, you know, the Philadelphia Fusion. They've built an arena that's going to be right across the street from where the Phillies and the Eagles all play. So they're they're they're aware of how that works. I mean, we had the Overwatch Tournament here at Wells Fargo, which is also owned by Comcast, which is where the Sixers of the Flyers play. And that was a huge turn out. I mean, they sold out the entire Wells Fargo, which is close to 20,000 people. So we saw in 2020 around March, April, May, June, where traditional sports were shut down. And then here we had a bunch of advertisers, a bunch of companies that had advertising money that they wanted to spend on sports, but they couldn't really do it in traditional. Yeah, they they moved to eSports. And so those companies who have kind of moved to eSports during that time have are they moving back to traditional sports and getting out of eSports? Are they are they continuing in eSports? How is that working? Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, right? I think some of the people that understand where it is because here's the part about eSports that's really good, right? You are educating a new generation of consumers. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. The audience size and the the median age that's in baseball compared to Fortnite is night and day. So it makes sense for them to kind of create budgets that coexist together and really have an opportunity even to kind of dwell together. Because what we're seeing is, you know, the younger generation of sports players are all gamers. So a lot of these people in the NFL and MLB, they're they're all part of the eSports world and they're playing 2K basketball and they're playing Halo and they're playing Call of Duty. So they're streaming as professional players in another league, but they're also doing sports. So it's kind of bridging the gap between, you know, the actual traditional sports and the eSports themselves, you know, kind of being together as one. And I mean, really, it just makes sense to if you have budgets in mind to do to do both at the same time, because now you're, like I said, your audience is even bigger than it was. And now you've got people that might have never known who you were in the younger TikTok world that now are aware of your brand. So is the messaging different in to that audience than it would be, you know, kind of to a mainstream audience that, you know, when you're talking about advertising, like a potato chip to the mainstream audience on TV versus kind of an eSports audience, are you going to create a different message? 100 percent. I mean, that's that's that's part of the game. And and that's kind of what we always that's what we are very good at, is that strategy behind that, right? You know, who is that audience and what are we trying to tell them? I mean, you know, if you're going to run a commercial that's on, you know, syndication, CBS or ABC, and then you're going to run the same kind of a product placement on TikTok, Instagram and Snapchat. It's a different it's a different message. I mean, we said earlier, but like the best stuff on TikTok is seven seconds. That's what crushes it. You know, great website traffic time is like 20 to 30. So like the new and younger generations are like, tell me what it is, get it done and get out. You know, the older generation that's more on still watching cable is like, take the full 30 seconds and explain to me what's going on. And I want to see these people, you know, so happy eating chips, you know, and they're like, oh, we're having such a great time at our picnic. Come on and join us. And then on TikTok, it's like, eat chips. They're good. Bye. Have you had any situations where you've seen where a non endemic brand has really gotten it wrong by being inauthentic in this space? That's a good question. I don't know so much wrong, but I think that some brands are kind of moving their way out because the industry has changed, right? So 10 years ago, when eSports kind of was in the beginning, it was Mountain Dew and Doritos. And now the teams have trainers and nutritionists and meditation sessions and they they work out. So like the days of Doritos and Mountain Dew and soda and all that, I think are still there's still opportunities there. But I think that they the industry as a whole is getting healthier because a sharp mind is, you know, more wins for your team. And, you know, instead of just training and playing games for eight hours and during and eating junk food, you know, they're playing games for a couple hours and then they're doing other things to keep their body fit and their mind sharp. So you actually are talking about like a stereotype in terms of like what what some brands might think is what the eSports world is and and that do you ever have to kind of tell them, no, this is how it really works? Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is just the awareness factor. So there's there's, you know, there's great organizations out there like Fit Gamer that's doing a really great job of educating people on this. And we're seeing that, you know, they want them to be athletes, right? And part of being an athlete is not, you know, just sitting in front of a screen for eight hours and like melding your brain. It's it's a whole different factor. I mean, it is it is becoming a whole new world of healthy healthy players. Sure. So that brings more opportunities for other brands on a percent. Yeah. So you can you can have yoga and and, you know, healthy food brands. Exactly. Well, and you can do fun stuff. You can do like, you know, nerd yoga where like, you know, where it's maybe there's, you know, we're going to do a meditation and it's a it's a high rule meditation from Zelda, you know, or something to that extent. So I think that's what's going to happen. Again, it goes back to knowing your audience, right? So like if this audience wants to be healthier, it's like, know who they are. And if they're if they're having fun with games or pop culture, integrate that into your brand. Absolutely. So what do you think the future of eSports is? I mean, we know we look at all these things that are are coming into play, the metaverse and yeah, tease and and use of cryptocurrency. What are your thoughts about where eSports is going? Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing we're going to see is sports betting is happening. It's coming. Game five is huge right now. I mean, we're seeing opportunities to bet on teams in especially out here in Atlantic City and in PA. And I think in Vegas, they're pushing legislation to kind of make that part of it very like DraftKings kind of a thing, right? So like two teams, 100 teams playing somebody, you can bet on players. You can take prop bets. I mean, that's all that's all coming soon. I think what we're going to see, too, is we're going to see, you know, I think the metaverse is kind of a term that has been thrown around. And you know, the metaverse really kind of already exists. It's called Fortnite. I mean, that is a huge part of it, right? So, you know, being able to watch a concert in a room with thousands of people is the metaverse. It doesn't have to be this VR goggle thing that you put on your face and you're stuck in the world. I think we're going to see is more is the gaming elements coming into into the world of the metaverse. You know, I look at it this way, right? So what we have all these NFT kind of style stuff is already there. I mean, any kind of anybody buys a skin or they buy a hat. I mean, Team Fortress 2 really started a lot of this with all the hats. Hats was a big deal during Team Fortress days. And that was a huge, you know, NFT kind of style thing where you have digital goods that can't really be physically seen but are there. And I think if the metaverse is going to continue to grow, it's going to be more of an AR verse. That's where I see it. So augmented reality, I think is really the key because why are we going to create universes that don't exist when we can utilize, you know, and digitize our physical universe that we already have? So, you know, if I go on Tommy Bahama dot com and I buy a shirt and I get an NFT parrot, you know, now we go to OpenSea and see what its value is. You put your glasses on, you come into my server room, bing, bing, boom. You're like, and then all of a sudden you just see this parrot on my shoulder. You're like, hey, man, I like that parrot. What's that going for? I'm like, oh, let's check it out. The market says it's 200 Ethereum. You're my friend. Here's my MetaMask. I'll give it to you for 100. And it's like, boom, boom, transferred, done. And then the parrot goes from his shoulder to my shoulder or vice first. Right. I think that that absolutely does look like the future. So, Ryan, I'm going to give you the last word and tell people how they can find Clearbridge and you. And I sure appreciate you being on here today. Yeah, I appreciate it. Time. This is this is great time flies to tell you what. So, yeah, please check us out. Clearbridgebraining.com. You know, we would love to have a conversation. We love the tech space. Web 3.0, you know, with my background, I'm in a weird world where I'm a marketing guy that can talk tech, which doesn't really exist. And I love to talk tech. And, you know, find me on LinkedIn, just Ryan Harbison on LinkedIn. Love the connects. All right. Fantastic, Ryan. So thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Next week, my guest will be Antela Bernard-Thomas, the founder of A Game Esports. See you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com Mahalo.