 So we have with us today George, George Gorski, please pardon my butchering of your name, George, forgive me. You're not the first one. I practiced that and then I choked at the critical moment. Is an American astrophysicist, attained a BA in astrophysics, University of Belgrade, he has a PhD in astronomy from UC Berkeley. Harvard junior fellow when he joined the faculty at Caltech. George is one of the founders of the virtual observatory he has been one of the founders of the emerging field of astro informatics, which he co organized with Giuseppe Longo who was here with us today in the audience. And organize a series of foundational conferences. He is the founding director of the Center for Data Driven Discovery at Caltech. He was also the director of the Meta Institute for computational astrophysics Mika. I remember when Mika was here in in Second Life, the first professional science organization based in virtual worlds. I should also point out that George has his own Wikipedia page so you can learn more about him from his Wikipedia page. And then we also have with us bill who has presented here before in the in the science circle and bill also gave a very well received presentation here a few months ago on Central American Mola art. Bill is a cultural anthropologist. He describes himself as hardwired into the fields of information systems anthropology of digital culture, geospatial analysis and current events. Globalization, social ecology, the evolution of human consciousness. He describes himself as an expert in the design and production of geographic databases 3D modeling, cartographic production, and so forth. So I think this will be a very interesting to two very interesting perspectives on the capabilities and promise of virtual worlds. And with that introduction, George, take it away. Please share your thoughts with us on this topic. Well, thank you, Matt. Thank you all for being here and thank you to Intel for a invitation. This is, of course, one of my favorite topics. So I have obviously some thoughts and opinions on the past present and future of virtual worlds, and none of this should come as a surprise to any of you, but I think it's just a way to start a broader conversation. So my familiarity with it began circa 2008 with the Meta Institute for Computational Astrophysics, which was organized as an experiment to see what this technology can do for us in science and scholarship. And back then I had a real revelation, epiphany, if you will, of how powerful this technology could be as a means of communication, and we're all very enthusiastic, many of you were around then. We all thought that, you know, within a few years everybody's going to have an avatar and there'll be this parallel world in which things will be done. And then that didn't happen. So it's kind of worth thinking about why this didn't happen, because we think about future and where it might go. And it's a complex situation. For one thing, it was pretty much a bleeding edge technology. People just weren't ready, and hardware wasn't ready, both the computers and the network. But more importantly, I would say there were sociological or psychological reasons against the uptake, which we've seen again and again in all manner of revolutionizing information technologies. But once they catch on, they really catch on. And of course there was a spectacular mismanagement on part of Linden Labs. They could have really on the metaverse and they didn't. Like every bad decision they could make, they did. Since 2012, I've been waiting for a second life to die, and yet here we are. So things kind of patterned along for a while. And then what started maybe about five years ago is what I would like to call the headset revolution. First, the Oculus and HoloLens came along, and there was all this great hype about virtual and augmented reality. And I said, well, finally here we are. Now this is really going to become mainstream, and everybody was very excited. But then that didn't really happen. And it's interesting to ask why. It's kind of obvious if you ask me. First of all, the headsets are not yet very capable in terms of the resolution, refresh rate, et cetera, et cetera. And they are still way too expensive for most people. In fact, companies that make them sell them at a great loss because they hope to sell software products. So everybody expected that the games industry, which was investing zillions of dollars in this, will really carry that burden. And since people love the games so much, that's how this is going to penetrate through general society. But it didn't happen. And I think it's really the expense and the clunkiness of the headsets that really precluded that. So people couldn't buy them, therefore they couldn't buy virtual games, therefore the games industry lost interest. And what we've seen for the last couple of years, immersive or even augmented virtual reality is really moving into the enterprise regime, where people use it for manufacturing, design, even conferencing, military uses it for training, and so on and so forth. So because of that, I finally decided that maybe for the next few years, maybe five to ten years until the headsets catch on and become lightweight like the glasses I'm wearing, virtual worlds are probably going to be the most promising platform for introducing this new means of interacting with people with other people and with information and everything else. So I do think that we're moving towards the 3D web slash metaverse slash whatever you want to call it. It's just that technology needs to get a little better and social acceptance has to develop. Now people are much more accepting of video games these days than they used to be and many are practiced and new generation of digital natives is growing up. And I watched my kids have play dates in Minecraft and so things are all moving in the right direction. But I think at this point it's really technological and therefore financial obstacles towards the broader uptake. Well, you probably noticed that there are many, many virtual worlds popping around like mushrooms and in my opinion, almost all of them with few notable exceptions are really poor and there are good reasons for this. The good ones are the professionally developed games that use proper libraries. They have fantastic graphics, high quality avatars that are only specialized for the game. But game companies have large teams of engineers and designers and work for a couple of years and spend tens of millions of dollars in doing these things and they make oodles and oodles of money at the end. None of the virtual world companies with an exception of aspiring one, which is Facebook, have that means of doing it. But there are technical reasons why this is not happening. Even back like 2008 or so we thought, well, the only way this can really spread out if it becomes web based as opposed to having these special browser closed, you know, walled garden mini worlds and there are really good reasons why that doesn't happen. One of which is graphics, which now is getting better. But even today to really run proper graphics of this nature, you require all the resources of your machine, assuming you have a relatively new one. And the web browsers just don't do this. Web browsers have a lot of built in protections for security sake, which is why whenever you upload one of these browsers, and ask you, are you sure you want to run this, you know, download it at such and such date, and you said, yes. So they essentially take over a lot of resources of your machine in order to create as much graphics as, for example, you see here now. The other technical reason is the bandwidth. And that's getting better, of course, with the G5 and all that and the Internet of Things. And now people are talking about distributed spatial computing, much of which will be essentially creating some form of extended reality once they're proper sensors and display motion options and so on so forth. So there are actually some moves of it to move in that direction, develop the right kind of thing. I expect what we'll need is new type of a browser that will be downward compatible to the traditional 2D web. But really built to accommodate the emerging 3D web. And once people get used to it, well, I think the transformation will be just like going from before the 2D web to having the 2D web, maybe even more. So overall, I would say we're moving to some sort of extended reality continuum from physical through augmented to fully immersive anything in between. And just like we still read things on printed paper as opposed to screen, there will be virtuals. There will be 2D virtuals in some situations where you can't have your holographic 3D presence or what have you. And so there'll be a very broad range of technologies and options for this type of interaction because this is really all about interactions of humans with computers with other humans with information with every human creation that now lives on the web or in cyberspace. This is also where virtual humans come in, and I'm sure you noticed that there is now a great deal of activity there, first from deep fakes, but also purely synthetic humans generated through again networks and so on. And they're now being used for things like social media influencers or advertising or concierges and so on. And I found this to be very, very interesting. I mean, after all, people now completely used to talk to AI through their phone or Amazon gear. And now we're getting actual human looking manifestations of agents like Siri and what have you. So this is I think another interesting trend that we will see humans communicating with artificial intelligence through avatars, both AIs and humans having avatars depending on the exact situation. And that's because humans like to interact with other humans and they don't want to talk to mysterious technology in the black box. So there are several of these technological trends that I think are converging and will make this emerging metaverse 3D web or what have you possible. So I'll expect this will unfold over the next decade or so. I may be surprised, may take less, may take longer. I was surprised it didn't take, you know, that we weren't already in the metaverse. So there, that's pretty much where I stop and I don't know, I'm not sure I take questions now or now later or what. Yes, I think we have we have time to to have some some discussion based on this. George, do you think that that through the use of VR headsets, we will be able to make virtual world 3D virtual worlds. A portable that is that, you know, we could wear a headset outdoors or as we're doing errands in the real world or something like that. Could we sort of walk around in the real world with our VR headsets on? Yeah, I think that's the necessary thing, except it won't be big clunky like scuba mask things. I think once headsets become as lightweight and as comfortable and portable as regular glasses. And in the future, maybe, you know, smart contact lenses or even direct brain interfaces, which I think are coming at some point. Yeah, that I think is going to be the essential part of creating a 3D web. But at the time, you know, it's, you know, even even good old flat screen virtual worlds can do a lot. Yes, I agree with that. I had not thought of contact lenses, but as my profession is I'm a patent attorney and I did have an occasion a couple years ago to meet with a client prospect who is developing a next generation of VR quote unquote headset, which is essentially just a pair of glasses. And it, so it's very lightweight and is not opaque. It just looks like glasses, but it has a chip embedded in it. And it runs at very high speeds and uses sort of an invisible laser into your pupil that it tracks. So it is very high speed and it also because it does, it does track your eyes and so forth it, it eliminates the sort of verdict. I mean one of the complaints of VR headsets is the vertigo because the frame rates are too slow. And if you move your head, you know, or something like that you can get vertigo. So these apparently apparently this is supposed to solve that problem. But that was just one example. I mean I'm not, you know, I think that these this type of next generation technologies for virtual virtual world headsets is just going to I think it's going to be transformation. I think we've just barely begun to see the tip of the iceberg as far as that technology goes. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And there are many different companies working on this. I think right now, Facebook's doing amazing stuff in Facebook Labs, but I'm sure the others like big ones like Google and Microsoft and so on Apple are doing their own. And the reason why it's, you know, it's secret because they know it's going to be an amazingly transformative technology like iPhone, right? Right. Now I believe that Facebook was also an early investor in Sansar, the Linden Lab Sansar, or at least they were an investor in the headset that was going to run Sansar, something like that. But Sansar, I guess, has been sort of a kind of dropped by the wayside. It was not really the success that Linden Lab Linden Labs hoped it would be. Do you have any insights into that? I don't fully understand the history of Sansar, but I am a little curious as to whether there were any lessons learned from it. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any private insights, but I think I have reasonable explanation. And I think Linden Labs were victims of the hype like so many others that they overestimated how quickly will enabling technology develop and become affordable and so on. So they ended up with this gigantic, unwieldy thing and, you know, they couldn't get audience. As you know, this is all about human created content, user created content. And, you know, you don't have enough humans, humans don't come. Yeah, Mike, Mike Shaw points out in the nearby chat that Linden Labs actually sold off a Sansar. Yeah, yeah, they spun it off and I don't think we'll get anywhere. But, you know, same thing happened with Phil Rosdale and High Fidelity. Well, there they had an extra problem of having Phil Rosdale, who had established himself as a guy who screwed us up. But anyway, yeah, I mean, those were kind of early attempts and Facebook's been trying with their little silly childish thing, their own virtual world. But they know that this is not what's going to take. So I mean, there are two parts to this. One part of the technology is things like headsets, frame rates, all that stuff. The other one is avatars. To me, that is the absolutely essential condition for us to catch on. We have to have realistic human avatars, at least as good as the new ones in second life, probably better, which have to be fully functional, have to be portable. They have to be universal standards. And the reason for this is the Proteus effect that Jeremy Bale and some so named that people identify with their avatars, identify their friends with their avatars. And since this is all about people interacting with people, that's what you need. I mean, I don't know how many people out there want to be represented as silly childish cartoons or who can barely move. You know, cylindrical pucks on a board that moves around. The reason why they do that is that they can't produce good avatars and have them transmitted through the current web protocols. That's the technological limitations. But also, you have to jump over the entire uncanny valley, right? And so those are really hard things to do, but I think it's essential that there are really photorealistic human representations. They both need to represent actual humans, but also allow customization or have libraries of different ones that you can use just like you do now. You know, I think one of the miscalculations about Sansar is my understanding. Sansar was really a platform for creators, for people to build environments in Sansar. But it was not really a social world. There wasn't really anything for users of the platform to do except visit the environments that had been created by the content creators. And I think this lack of ability to fully interact socially in Sansar, the way we are used to doing in Second Life was a big shock to people. I think people went to Sansar and quickly got bored with it because you couldn't really be social in the kind of intuitive way that you can be in Second Life. Well, I think it's exactly right. And it's a feedback loop. You need people and you need people able to create things in order to get more people to create more stuff and so on. And so amazingly enough, Second Life managed to solve that issue long, long ago and then did nothing with it. And there just wasn't enough power behind current fully immersive virtual worlds. There will be someday. But as I said, you know, it requires both social acceptance and sufficiently high quality technology in terms of the headsets and bandwidth and graphics and all that. Yeah. I think with respect to avatars, I think the current, like the mesh avatars, you can you can create in Second Life now are amazing. I think they look fantastic. They are. They still remain kind of cartoonish. They're not photorealistic. But oh, I mean, so they're still pretty amazing. It's hard to jump across the County Valley, but both people producing virtual humans and also Facebook labs, the actual images of real humans as avatars are solving all these problems. And this is coming. This will be, I mean, it's already with us in limited set of applications, but it's only going to get there. I mean, about Second Life, it always suffered from the unwillingness to really change their technology. And of course, I think mesh avatars and mesh stuff was brought in by third parties. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, I just wanted to mention that. One of the so one of the initial appeals of the Second Life platform was that, you know, it was entirely user created. They provided building tools in the platform so that so that the users could create their own environments and their own objects and their own avatars and so forth, which was pretty fun for a while. That was a very cool thing. But quickly hit, it bumped up to a limit, a ceiling where things couldn't really get any better. And it was obvious from other platforms. I hate to mention this, but IMVU, for example, which is a mesh based platform had really good looking avatars, even though it's a crappy platform. It really had good looking avatars because they were mesh based. And I think that was gradually migrated into Second Life to improve the avatars here. The big change that meant that what I call the mesh revolution wrought upon Second Life is that it professionalized building. And from now to build because to build in mesh, you do it offline with tools like Photoshop or GIMP, for example, and then you import them into Second Life. And that so that so that diminished the appeal or usefulness of Second Lives in world building tools and created sort of a professional class of content creators. That was that's a big change in Second Life. Yeah, I'll propose those avatars. I mean, the thing is that everybody gets looked like they're 20 year old. And I think, you know, there is obvious commercial appeal to that. But on the other hand, you know, I would like to look like real me. And, you know, it's impossible to find middle aged or senior looking avatar that's any good. And I didn't try very hard, but I tried a little bit and just they're just aren't there. Well, they do exist. Actually, I've seen quite a few. You see, I see more and more middle aged avatars, especially in men who want to have like a distinguished have have sort of distinguished gray hair and gray beards and things like that. I am starting to see more and more of that. Good. Maybe you can tell me where to find one, but we can do that offline. Yeah, I mean, it's obvious why people, even when we have truly photorealistic avatars would want to optimize them, if you will, or just have completely different looking ones. You know, some people use virtual world as a real extension of themselves to do whatever they want to do. The others want to live a fantasy life and maybe not even human avatars. I get that. And I think that's going to be with us as well. But I think for really broad acceptance that's actually quite serious, not just games. You will need to have truly professionally developed somehow adjustable, modifiable, personalizable, but really realistic human avatars. And to me, that's going to be one of the essential components in this. Fantastic. All right. We'll have more opportunities to talk about all this, but I do want to give Bill an opportunity to share his thoughts also. So we have Bill Hart with us here, a Nexus Dot, who is sitting next to me here in the middle. And Bill, if you're ready, would you like to share your thoughts? Okay, can you hear me? Yes, it's working. Fantastic. You sound great. Okay. Well, thank you very much. George, very, very interesting. I hope I'm not too repetitive of the excellent ideas that you've presented to us. So the concept of, I certainly agree with George that this idea of social interaction is the core attraction to what makes a second life so very interesting. And he talked about headsets and technology and just a moment here, previous. And in the different kinds of impediments that was preventing second life for becoming what we thought it should be. So we all agreed, I think in 2006 when I entered into second life that this technology had the potential to transform modern culture. And I think that many of us actually believe that and I share that concept apparently with George. So whether we came in through a world of warcraft second life or some other virtual world, we expected a more comprehensive set of changes by now. So what happened in George gave us some very interesting insights of what it was and he talked about bandwidth and he talked about pixels and headsets and so forth. But I would like to focus just a little bit on that social interaction part of the technology. Now, when we interact with people and we share a motion outside of voice, it's really through the the vehicle of animations. And these animations of course are pre designed scripts that we have to execute and we have to put them in order. And we get it would get them to start we have to get them to end and so forth. But it doesn't really give us the level of expression, I feel to make a virtual world, truly engaging from the human interaction point of view. Now, if you think of the we from Nintendo, and its ability to play golf they have these accelerometers and, and this balance bar where you can measure center of gravity and so forth. There must be some way using existing sensor technology like sonic sensors and lidar sensors and so forth to transmit, for example, our facial expressions in real life to our, to our avatars in second life or some other virtual world, think truly powerful that would be so that we could make an expression in real life and it was instantaneously be transmitted to our avatars. This is the kind of personal interaction that I feel that a virtual worlds are missing but would enable the next generation of transformative technology in addition to the things that George has mentioned. And the other aspect is trans transmitting our movements, our hand movements or our body movements but especially our hands our hands are so incredibly expressive in the real world, but yet we have to rely on kind of silly animations to transmit hand expressions in in second life and virtual worlds. So, of course, we can easily have sensors, these sensor technology already exists, you know, lidar and sonic sensors and accelerometers and gyroscopic trackers. These kinds of sensors exist, but no one has made a standard product that we could use in second life that could easily transmit our real life hand movements into into our into our avatar so think of the combination of those two kinds of things, hand movements, facial expressions, and of course you know ready player one is somewhere in the more distant future, but of course transforming entire body movements into our avatar, would of course be something that will eventually happen in virtual worlds, but I think that this was one of the impediments associated with all the technological impediments that George mentioned that that is inhibiting our ability to create this, you know, cultural transformation in in engagement in in in second life. Very good bill I appreciate that and I do agree that. I mean, as an anthropologist I think you have a special appreciation for the value of the social interactions and the kinds of cultures that can get that can sort of organically arise in a social world like second life is, for example, which is one of the most fun parts of being able to enter this sort of world is to be able to explore all the sort of surprising subcultures and interest groups and things like that that that just arrives organically from people seeking with similar interests and so forth. That's one of the, you know, for example, you know with the with the science circle, you know we're we're kind of an ally group with the virtual pioneers, which is primarily a group of educators, right, and not necessarily, you know, science based, but just educators in general. So, and so that's an example of kind of a of a culture here in second life but you know there's also you know I don't know there's vampires and you know role players and science fiction role players and I don't know furries and tinies you know the tiny subculture in in in a raglan shire here in second life, and, and so forth. And, and unlike in the real world I think there are real barriers to, you know, to where you can feel safe sort of observing some, some, you know, sort of alien culture to you, but you know in a virtual world. You can do so relatively safely and harmlessly you can, you can sort of you can sort of visit these subcultures and kind of get a flavor of them without, you know, being threatening to them or them being threatening to you or whatever so that's a very exciting potential for the, you know, you can just as the use of virtual world platforms becomes more universal the kind of, you know, I don't know maybe it can help, you know, people become, you know, more tolerant and more open minded, you know. Now if I may add to this, I mean this whole business about nonverbal communication is a really interesting one. In fact, it was one of the things that amazed me is how much we can convey without any facial expressions or gestures, just with words. And it's part of the illusion that our mind creates that we interpolate over things that we don't really see. And so I was personally just amazed how much we can do just with the verbal communication and kind of knowing what people do. Of course there'll be haptic technologies that will capture facial expressions and gestures, but turns out they're not all that important after all, except for the politics of course. That's extremely interesting because, you know, before the advent of platforms with avatars, for example in the 90s like AOL chat rooms and CompuServe chat rooms, you know, chat rooms were very popular. You know, I think for the most part, you know, people were perfectly happy to just type at each other in a chat room. And that was, that was actually pretty good. In fact, I think one of my initial impressions of some of these avatar based platforms is that they were simply chat rooms that were enhanced by avatars. That makes sense. And that's kind of the way, to some extent that's kind of the way I use second life now. Okay, great, great conversation. We could talk all day I think about the nature of social engagement, how it will evolve, and the kind of technology that will enable that. But I'd like to go on to my next slide and talk a little bit about the digital aesthetic and transformation of our concept of art. So, I'm suggesting that the concept of traditional art has been challenged by artists in virtual worlds, where there are actually new technical and aesthetic capabilities that here too didn't really exist. And one of the ways of explaining this is that when we develop 3D printer technology, 3D printer technology could take its instructions from an AutoCAD file, or some kind of three dimensional file. But previously when you actually created things, objects, you had to mill them with machines and machines can only access material in certain kinds of ways. But the moment the 3D printer technology came available, you could make all kinds of different objects that were impossible to create using milling technology or Losswax cast technology and so forth. In the same way, art is being transformed in the virtual worlds in a way that is causing us to rethink our concept of art. So, I would like to talk about a particular example of what I think is at the vanguard of this art revolution and that's the focus group. And they have created a sim that's filled with immersive aural and visual art that you actually have to go and visit to participate in. And I have a few slides of the focus of the focus exhibit, but it just doesn't really give it due justice but I will do my best to attempt to explain it. And I certainly agree with George that avatars are at the fundamental base of communicating our persona or our desires to express certain kinds of personality characteristics. Many folks have multiple avatars that express different kinds of personas. And here was one avatar that I thought was particularly interesting that I captured in the focus exhibit, and it's entirely made of demo stuff. Everything about this avatar is demo but it is actually a very compelling and beautiful artistic avatars. The artistic manifestations of avatars as personas is itself just an incredibly rich area of knowledge and artistic manifestation and we can talk all day about it. But I think that these artists, in particular the ones that I chose to focus on the focus artists, they represent what I'm calling a new generation of digital cyber shamans. If you think about traditional shamans they were able to create a expressive transformational understanding of the nature of the universe through the communication with spirits. And I'm suggesting that these artists as digital cyber shamans are doing something similar for us. They are invoking their artistic vision in a powerful way that causes us to experience art in a new and fundamentally different way than we have perhaps in the past. And if you haven't been to the focus, Sim, in Coppelia, I highly recommend that you go. I know that a number of you have been there. I know Berrigan and I went together and Berrigan giggled like a little girl the whole time that he was there. So if it was that entertaining for Berrigan, I'm sure you will find it also entertaining as well, is instructional about how people can push the building tools of second life to create these powerful immersive environments and also inspire other artists I've gone with a number of artists, and they have become powerfully inspired by the work of these folks. So I made a few notes about the focus art concept. So this crew, they have created a complex visual and oral immersive experience with kaleidoscopic psychedelic patterns. So if you think that that is over the top, then it is, because you have to go there and see the powerful movement as well as the oral accompaniment of their artistic creations in order to gain the full experience. So the focus artists are three different artists. I have a picture of them in the next slide. So this is also something that can be a very social experience. If you go and visit it, it's best experience with friends because everyone sees something kind of different. Now, the artists themselves say that the key purpose of them is to provide an immersive artistic experience, but there is no special message. And as a matter of fact, I quoted from one of their documents. There is absolutely no point to the build other than to explore and experience it. No hidden message, no deep meaning. And then there is a caveat, of course, which is exactly what we would say if there were, but trust us. This sim is filled with all kinds of powerful metaphorical associations. It's not just artistic geometric patterns that are evolving in kaleidoscopic psychedelic patterns but powerful symbolism associated with a wide variety of different kinds of concepts. So they are, of course, denying that these messages exist, but in their caveat, of course, admitting that maybe there is something there. And these are the artists themselves, D.B. Bailey, Toth, Jansen and Joel Ellsmeyer, and they work together. They each have different kinds of specializations, and the sim itself is huge. It's a monster sim of a wide variety of stuff, and every time I go there, it changes. And there's a variety of ways to visit it. You can ride on a stationary bicycle. You can ride in a flying teacup saucer like Alice in Wonderland. You can take a roller coaster. You can walk on the pathways. You can ride in bubbles and so forth. So these are the kinds of experiential nature that are not possible, of course, in any real life, in any real life experience. And the focus build itself, you can get an idea of how complex it is, which this is only a small portion of it. And I think Berrigan might be in there somewhere if you look closely. Don't look at me. Don't ever look at me. And of course, there's these kaleidoscopic pathways with this pathway is revolving in a kaleidoscopic pattern. It's moving and there is sound and there's a variety of different soundtracks associated with the geometric patterns. And I would just like to say that Sumo said field trip and I would just delete the word field and say trip. This is the closest thing to a visual representation of a psychedelic experience under the influence of hallucinogenic ethnobotanicals that I have seen anywhere in any kind of media. And so I feel that there is something neurologically fundamental about the presentation of the arc in the focus sim that goes to the core of the sensory experience, the creative sensory experience. The same kind of stuff that is precipitated by the use of plant in a theogens that are used traditionally by Amazonian people in their in their rituals and shamanism. So I have several other slides, but I think it would be just appropriate to kind of close here that the virtual reality integration with other aspects of our lives. It just has not been ready for prime time and George has highlighted a number of reasons I've highlighted a number of reasons in 2006 when I entered second life, I would have had assumed but in 2020 that corporate America would be using virtual worlds like second life to conduct business, it would be used as a primary communication tool, it would be used as a way for education, it would be used as a way to, you know, exhibit museum quality information, but in for a variety of reasons, it has failed to deliver on the kinds of things that we assumed would be possible. But this is not mean in that there is not a powerful future and the transformative and a future and that will contribute to the evolution of human consciousness is not yet is not yet to come. So there, bear gun. Fantastic. Bill, I wanted to mention, well, because everyone is fascinated by the DB Bailey sim. Now wasn't he he's an architect. And wasn't he sort of the operating manager of Frank Geary's architecture law firm. There's an incredible story behind all of the artists of the focus sim at DB Bailey was the managing partner of Frank Geary's architectural business, and many of you would recognize Frank Geary as being props the world's most famous architect. He designed the biodiversity museum of Panama in the bill bow museum in in in in Europe so he has extensive architectural experience, and now he is creating, you know, as social architecture and art in second life he's actually used second life to create some real life architectures as well and I had a chance to visit with him, some of the incredible builds that he's made in second life that actually got constructed in real life. So, DB Bailey is a genius level of talent, and he is one of the most powerful creative forces behind the focus group. It's also extremely interesting he has, you know, he's elderly he's suffering from Parkinson's I believe, and he credits hit a lot of his outburst of creativity in virtual worlds to his Parkinson's that it has essentially sort of unlocked a creative chamber in his brain. And I think that he had not tapped into previously so that's another extremely interesting element of his, you know, what it creates here. Yes, if you go to YouTube, and you search compulsory creativity Parkinson, you will get his lecture on how he feels the disease has affected his creative abilities. And I would suggest that it is, and it's, I think it is his assessment that it's an interaction between the drugs that he's taking and the disease, and my suggestion to DB Bailey which he is willing to entertain is that this is tapping into the same kind of components of the brain that create the theogenic effects of of of hallucinogenic ethnobotanicals used by shamans throughout Amazonia. Yes, that's right so I mean that's that's a that's a fantastic segue or tie in to the. I love this idea that you ties in with your idea of the cybernetics shamans that you know and. I think for, for many people, you know, maybe we don't suffer from from a disease or a mental illness that gives us access to creativity, but the mere, but the mere fact that we have access to the tools, or the components of a virtual world to express our creativity, you know can kind of operate in the same way I mean you know I I don't build a second life but I love to decorate my land, and I do and I feel like the experience of being able to kind of shop for things that I want to have on my land and and then you know, resting them on my land and sort of arranging them and blah blah blah, you know is a is a form is a creative outlet that I don't really have in the real world I'm not I'm not a good painter I'm not a sculptor blah blah blah I'm not a musician, right. So second life does provide a creative outlet, even for, you know, just regular people like me, and it's, you know, it's fun. I've met a number of artists a bear gone that are not real life artists in any way shape or form, but have become artists in second life because they've been inspired by the power of the tools and the ease of the use to create artistic level level products. Right, right. Well, I just wanted to interject here. We're approaching the 10 o'clock hour in second life that's specific time. And the, we're going to at at the 10 o'clock hour. We are going to switch streams back to the regular second life music stream for arias piano interlude, which will be from 10 to 1030. And we're just about there now so don't let's not let's not let that slip by. So that, so aria has, you know, his full allotment of time for his for the piano so Let me take a quick look at so there's a lot of interest in db Bailey sim. And I would have to search it in my landmarks but if anyone has a slurl for that for his region. Feel free to post it in the nearby chat. So people can visit it, they might make a fun field trip to there one of these days to be honest so that's something we should keep in mind. And our And I should also mention that it looks like we have the piano setup right here. So if you do want to hear our piano interlude I think you can stay right here we don't need to change locations. So feel free to to hang around. If aria is here I think he can go ahead and move on up to the piano here and take his position so we can get started.