 My waistline is expanding just like the universe so really relative to the rest of it. Yeah, it's actually moving very slowly. Yeah. See, there you go. My waistline is expanding like the universe very slowly over millennia. I'm actually quite thin right now. In comparison, you're getting smaller, Tom. Yes. Relativistically, I am actually getting smaller. That's true, isn't it? We're all getting smaller in relation to the universe. Yes, we're all getting itty-bitty. If you're ever feeling fat, folks, just think of that. You're getting tinier compared to the universe. Yeah, but that doesn't help when your pants don't fit anymore. That's the most frustrating thing is when you have to go, or this is the most insulting, this is the thing that you still have to do. Yeah. How do you think the universe feels about its pants? Seriously. Let's not shame. Let's not universe shame. You know, when you got to go a notch up or is it down on your belt to loosen it up? A notch up. A notch up. Yeah. It's worse. I remember as a kid, I had to make an extra notch, like, ah, making a voice count belt. You know, it doesn't have any notches. When I worked at CNET, I had to make an extra notch. Yeah, it's those subsidized sodas. Make an extra notch the other direction. All the free sodas, yeah. Pretty good. I guess they were only 25 cents. They weren't free. But so you're good on the Google mind thing, right, Erin? You good? Yeah. I don't go mind me. I'll just be chatting about AI. Yeah. Alice, even Bob, I was, I was that they had me there. It was like, why? I mean, that's that's the typical, but they named it. They named it. It was cute. I thought it was cool. Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice. It's cute. I like to play the role of Eve. Cuckoo Fran and Ollie. Well, I know you do. So wait a minute, Darren. I'm not going to talk about this during the show, but is that like a regular thing that people named? It's industry standard. Oh, okay. I did not know that. So there's a bunch of player characters for various roles of the, you know, hackers and stuff. But since the 70s, Alice, Bob, and Eve have been trying to hack each other. Interesting. You think they'd finally like just settle down and stop. But no. Well, today's today's drawing. Well, I did not, you know, I mean, obviously, it's kind of a fun little thing. There's all sorts of ones. You've got, you know, Grace and Heidi and Oscar and Peggy and they, there's just ridiculous ones. Alice and Bob are always poor. Alice and Bob, they've been trying to exchange messages since the 70s. All right. We ready? Yep. Here we go. Daily Tech News Show is powered by its audience, not outside organizations. To find out more, head to DailyTechNewsShow.com slash support. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, October 28th, 2016. I'm Tom Merritt joining me on a Friday. It's rainy for both of us. Darren Kitchin, how you doing? Hey, I'm pretty good. It's nice to be in rainy California for once. Yeah, right? We need it. And thankfully we have someone who is on the outside of California to give us that non-rain perspective. Len Peralta here to illustrate the show. Yes. It's not raining here unlike Wednesday night when it was raining during Game 2 of the World Series. Hopefully the nice weather in Chicago will help the Indians win it tonight. Go try it. All right. As you know, Len, in case you didn't guess from that, Len is in the Cleveland area. We've got a lot to talk about. Google Mind is doing some interesting things with AI, trying to teach them how to hack each other and encrypt things, encrypt all the things. So that's going to be fun. Let's start off with our top stories. George Hots. You might know him if you're a fan of jailbreaking. He went, I guess he still goes occasionally by the name Geohot, has canceled his autonomous car after-market add-on, the Comma-1. He had been developing a way to turn any car into an autonomous car. He received a letter from the U.S. National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration asking him 15 questions about design, safety testing, how he was going to market it, and Hots, who is in China at the time, decided to cancel the project saying on Twitter that, quote, dealing with regulators and lawyers isn't worth it. So Darren Kitchin, someone who may or may not have dealt with lawyers and regulators in his time operating hack five in the hack shop, what do you make of this? It feels to me like maybe he was getting frustrated with this project anyway and this is the last straw. I can't even imagine. There's been moments where you just want to throw your hands up in all I've had to deal with is UL, CE, ROHS, FCC, and several other letters. But I can't even imagine when it comes to the National Transportation Board what kind of red tape you must have to go through, especially in a market that's not even defined. I'm just making stuff that's within the consumer realm and that path has already been paved. So yeah, I can see this just being absolutely daunting to get those kind of questions where they want the level of detail that you as just a hacker are not really skilled to or equipped to deal with and outside of what hiring a bunch of lawyers, like what's George going to do? I mean, come on, this started out as a hacker product or as a hacker project to just say like, dude, we can do this too. And I think that if anything, maybe he'll take what he's done and just been like, open source it, grab the hardware, you guys have fun. At least that way, you just bypass all of the regulation and responsibility. Yeah. And there's there's been a little controversy over hots making claims that some people like Elon Musk say are outlandish, but also hots is capable of doing some pretty outlandish things. You know, we've seen him pull off stuff in the past that a lot of people wouldn't have thought possible. So I think a lot of us were curious to find out what he would come up with. And how fast he could come up with it. It is unfortunate that he has just, you know, thrown in the towel on this. I can only imagine that these questions, which I'm sure the NHTSA considers to be standard and honestly, hot should have expected to get questions from the NHTSA if you're making an aftermarket car device. Don't take into account the things that an autonomous aftermarket product would would have. And so he's probably looking at questions. He's like, I don't even know how to answer this. It's not what my product does. Yeah. Or I mean, you know, I figured like hots is very capable. And I feel like this is one of those things where the hacker mindset of like just, you know, iterate quickly, get it done. The 80 20 rule applies here and you can probably get a car to drive, you know, 80 percent as good as the next self driving car from the big companies with 20 percent of the technology, whether or not that's what consumers or what the the highway board is going to allow to be on the roads is a different story. Hence the questions. Now, that's a really good point. Like you can you can make something that jail breaks a phone most of the time and when it fails, no one's life is at stake when you're making an aftermarket car accessory. You have a higher standard. You have to meet. I'm not saying that hots wasn't aware of that or he wasn't trying to meet that higher standard by any stretch, but it is more difficult and it's even more difficult to prove. I just sort of wish or hope maybe that a visionary who is versed in taking on these kinds of bureaucratic challenges could have or maybe still will partner up with him and say, hey, let me let me run that part of the business because not everybody is good at every part of a business. And it sounds like he just needs somebody to shield him and let him do the work. Right. And, you know, short of that person coming into the mix, I would hope that he would take what he's gathered so far. If he's just going to, hey, if you're going to flip the table and throw in the towel, you might as well also toss the code up there and let everybody else kind of, you know, maybe somebody else wants to tackle that. Yeah. Faraday, Tesla, maybe one of the existing manufacturers, car manufacturers like Honda, Toyota or Audi. You there's a there's a guy who knows a lot about this stuff. He may not be the easiest person to fit into your corporate culture. I'll grant you that. But someone would benefit quite a bit. ProPublica has published a report pointing out that Facebook's ad targeting can be used not only to target by ethnic affinity, but therefore exclude people by ethnic affinity. What ProPublica did was posted an advertisement about fighting for lower rents and fighting against real estate encroachment and then targeted it to particular ethnic affinities. Again, Facebook doesn't call it ethnicity because they don't ask people for ethnicity. They infer it based on the things you like and the post you make and thereby excluded real estate information from minority groups. Now, they have showed this to some lawyers who say, yeah, this violates the Fair Housing Act of 1968 because you're not allowed to advertise in a way that excludes any particular ethnic group. Facebook says, first of all, these are ethnic affinities. They're not exactly the same thing as knowing a person's identity. Second of all, the ProPublica ad is not a real estate ad. And the copy itself is not excluding ethnicities. And we would have blocked it had it violated those policies. So there's a debate on whether the ProPublica ad actually violates the Fair Housing Act or not. It may or may not. It depends on who you ask. And there's certainly a debate on how Facebook allows people to use ethnic information that it has inferred to target advertisements. Darin, how do you feel about this? Well, it's really interesting because, you know, the algorithm in of itself is kind of benign. It's is it would you posit that the algorithm, which was written by men or people, I mean, is inherently abusive? Or is it people that abuse the algorithm? Right. I mean, I'm not I'm actually not thinking about this in terms of minority groups and ethnicities and and housing and advertising. I'm thinking about this as just straight up technology because this happens time and time again. So when you abstract it out of that, what we're really talking about is technology that we build because we can. And then we have moral problems with it later when we're like, well, wait a second, it's being used. And is it that it's being used in a way that we don't like? Or is it that it's been built in a way that we don't like? Yeah, that's a really, really good point, because there is on the algorithm level, the algorithm just says, hey, these sorts of data seem to be similar. So the user accounts they're associated with are probably similar in this way. It's then programmers who put labels on that and say, actually, what that group is that the algorithm found probably as Caucasians. This group is Hispanics. This group is African-Americans. And then the third stage is what you're saying is then how do we use that? So I think that's where the debate happens. It's not about the algorithm. It's about the use of it. And there are positive uses for it. If I'm an advertiser and I have a Spanish language version of an ad and an English language version of an ad, I may want to try the Spanish language version of the ad targeted at people who have a Hispanic ethnic affinity, because they are more likely to speak Spanish. And maybe it will perform better. And I want to try that out. I don't think anyone would argue that that's a bad thing. On the other hand, you could argue that, hey, guess what? You can just look at someone's account and find out if they post in Spanish and target at them that way. You don't have to do this other ethnic affinity. So you start to get into a grayer area of people saying, yeah, but an advertisement towards the African-American community is going to get a better response if it's worded in a certain way versus targeted towards affluent white people. Right. And so in that case, you know, I feel like this is one of those things where if we as the people using this technology can't be trusted to use it appropriately or we end up. What we do is we start bolting on a bunch of changes and and synthetic limitations to prevent us from abusing it. And when those things happen, I always typically, I typically feel bad for the technology because it wasn't inherently bad. It's just that we have to then kind of shape it to prevent us from abusing that. And it's always like, wow, you know, it's just an interesting reflection on humanity. And then I end up feeling bad for the poor algorithm who was just trying to do its job. It's like, man, you just asked me to look for patterns. I found some patterns and it's like you get it. You should get an at a boy algorithm, not a oh, you you you bad algorithm for doing what I asked you to do. Who fights for the algorithm? I'll tell you who Darren Kitchen fights for the algorithm. I don't know. Let's let the machine learning bots. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, whatever, that could really go off. No, no. And we're not trying to belittle the fact that there is an issue here that needs to be resolved and Facebook saying, if we see an ad that we think violates the Fair Housing Act, we're not going to allow it to be posted. And and so now it's a debate over the interpretations of the Fair Housing Act. And it doesn't really have much to do with the algorithm itself at that point. Yeah. The European Union's Article 29 Working Party sent an email to Facebook Friday expressing serious concerns about sharing WhatsApp data and telling Facebook it needs to stop sharing that data while an investigation occurs. Back in August, you remember we talked about this WhatsApp changed its terms of service to allow Facebook to match phone numbers with users of both services. So if you signed up for WhatsApp and gave them your phone number, which you kind of have to, and he signed up for Facebook and gave them your phone number there, which you don't have to, they could say, hey, these are the same person and we can aggregate that and target them appropriately. It allows people to share their Facebook contacts into WhatsApp and find friends and things like that. The article 29 Working Party says, yeah, you change those terms of service. And a lot of people who signed up for WhatsApp didn't really realize that. And we don't think that's OK. That Working Party is made up of the heads of the privacy organizations of the 28 EU member nations. That Working Party also warned Yahoo over their recent discovered 2014 data breach and the allegations that Yahoo scan emails for US intelligence agencies. And separately, Italy's antitrust agency is announcing a probe into WhatsApp sharing of data with Facebook as well. Yeah. So is this the case of just the government saying, stop innovating while we're investigating? I don't know if it's yeah, I mean, I guess you could you could word it that way, innovating or or invading my privacy. It depends on what side of the fence you're on. But they're saying, just just stop this new policy until we determine if it's allowed or not under EU law. Right. And so the other way to look at this is that it's like, oh, well, this is a government organization here coming coming to defend the consumer to protect those consumers from those evil companies that would otherwise violate their privacy, you know, and for the betterment of their citizens, which may give you some warm fuzzy, or you may realize that it's it could be looked at as government trying to maintain the balance of power, because here are citizens becoming users of companies, products more so than, you know, citizens of their own nationality. And so I look at that as as very much like the the power struggle between, you know, as we've moved from, you know, different architectures of of governance and what it is to be a citizen. Yeah, I think that what you would hear people in Europe reacted to that by saying, sure, you may be right, Darren, but in this case, WhatsApp was a better protector of our privacy before Facebook changed this terms of service. And the other and the other thing that's being fought here is this idea that if I sign up for terms of service, the company can change that terms of service at any time. And it really doesn't have to get me to give informed consent. It's going to it's going to throw an OK button in front of me. And most people are just going to tap it. Right. And so it used to be that you would just be able to run a piece of software. And if you didn't like the new version, you just didn't have to install it. In this day and age, there's no, you know, especially as everything is, you know, an app within an ecosystem, the control is centralised to the point where you don't really have a choice. It's either you run the latest or you don't run it at all. So, you know, I can see the argument on the government side of saying, hey, that's a little bit like bait and switch where you're going to, you know, change your privacy policy down the road and you know no one's going to read that. But if no one reads it initially and no one reads it down the line when they accept the new one, what's the difference? And you were allowed to opt out of this new new policy, but you had to know how to do it. And it meant going into some settings, finding a part of the terms of service and saying, no, I want to be opted out. And it was out there for a limited time. So I think that's probably what they're looking at the most. Employment tribunal judges in the United Kingdom have ruled that two Uber drivers should be considered employees and therefore guaranteed a living wage and other benefits that are guaranteed to full-time employees under UK law. Uber plans to appeal the decision, but if this is upheld, if they don't win their appeal or they're not allowed to appeal, it would mean that in the UK, Uber would have to consider all of its ride-hailing drivers as employees and provide them all the benefits thereof. You know, I'd love to see them all employees and all get the benefits thereof. I just don't know if it works with the model. Actually, I do know it absolutely does not work with the model. And I'd say that the whole other side of the fence, because there's only two sides, sadly, to this fence, is that the freelance side, well, it benefits Uber best. It doesn't benefit the driver. So I'm hoping that for this gig economy to really flourish, that a third option will emerge at a third option that can be universal and be adopted because this problem happens in the EU. It happens in the US. It happens everywhere. And so I'm hoping that the world can get together and say, hey, we're not stuck in the 50s here. Let's make a new option for employment so that the betterment of mankind and as the technology provides opportunities to do gig-based stuff that just wasn't possible before, that we can take advantage of that instead of being afraid of it. Yeah, it's balancing this new ability to say, I want to choose when I work and what I work on and be able to to decide how much I'm going to make, which sounds great, with companies exploiting that to say, fantastic, we now can just pay you very little and you don't have any kind of bargaining power anymore. The bargaining power in the past was either provided by unions or by the government stepping in and regulating, and that's not there. So it's very easy to go one way or the other and say the government should lay off and let these companies, you know, employ people and people are free to take these jobs or not. It's also easy to go the other way and say these companies are just exploiting people and trying to get around paying them the benefits and they should be brought to bear and say you can't just pretend that somebody's a contractor when they're working 60 hours a week on Uber. And the fact is we have a lot more information we can share as employees and figure out where the best gigs are and have flexibility and make an informed decision about trading those off. That shouldn't mean we give up all of our labor protections, but I think, Darren, you hit it on the head, there needs to be new labor protections that are applicable to that situation. So whether it's, hey, you should have the right to, you know, obtain some kind of insurance as a freelancer and maybe that's an open market. Maybe that's a guild provided sort of thing. I don't know, but there should be a way to bring you those benefits of employment while allowing you to keep the freedom and flexibility and allowing companies to take advantage of that flexibility where they can say, hey, this isn't a traditional 40 hour a week, nine to five job. Right. And if the companies like Airbnb, Lyft, TaskRabbit, Uber and whatnot want to really see the gig economy flourish, they should all be getting behind the concept of some sort of gig based labor organization, because if their business models are completely tied to simply taking advantage of the benefits that they get from having freelancers instead of employees, then they don't have a sustainable business model in, you know, in a future where this is a possible way to live and work. So I would, I would hope that we would see all of those companies and many more get behind the whole concept of completely reforming what it means to work. Sony's PlayStation View television service is now available for Android TV devices. So whether you've got an Android TV set top box or an Android TV powered television, if it's running Android OS 4.4 or later, you can watch Sony PlayStation View. Sony PlayStation View was already available for Android OS mobile devices that came last summer. Sony also promised access coming to PC's and Mac's soon. And I know that is a stumbling block for a lot of folks out there who otherwise would very much want to sign up for this service. But maybe they watch the majority of their TV on a laptop. The way my friend Brian Brushwood does. Oh, man. I was so excited about this story at first until I read more into it because, you know, and this is really just like to give you a glimpse of like how I see PlayStation. But I thought this was, you know, about PlayStation TV. They're failed attempt at like a lower power Android gaming type platform competitor, you know, the one that had like the ports of the PlayStation 1 and the Vita and the PSP games. And I mean, considering that that was just a little arm box, very similar to your modern Android TV, that's where my mind went first. And I guess that's because I still equate PlayStation as a gaming platform. And I bet that I'm not alone in seeing it that way. Still, though, I think it's like really smart of them to obviously just piggyback on any existing platform you can, whether it's iOS or Android TV, because, you know, it's better for the bottom line. Just I wonder because they launched this thing on PlayStation, I get why they call it PlayStation View. They were trying to drive sales of PlayStation. I think Sony has discovered that they've hit on something here because other than Sling TV in the US, there aren't any competitors yet. Direct TV is coming with theirs. Verizon has gone 90 and apparently they've got another more more high end version coming down the line. Other people like Hulu are supposedly going to get in this. YouTube is going to get in this. But Sony is ahead of the game right now and doing the things that they need to do, I wouldn't be surprised if this drops PlayStation from the name at some point and says, this is Sony View TV that will provide across platforms. So I saw it that going the other direction as, you know, using that existing catalog as a value add considering that you've got the Hulu's and the YouTubes and the Voodoo's and that you're more in on all of the different, you know, platforms for this that I am being such a court killer. But I would say that I would figure that it would be their entire back catalog of potential, you know, casual or hardcore games that would run on these kinds of platforms that could just be integrated into that system very similar to how the PlayStation TV was that they could be like, look, it's it's entertainment. Right. I mean, they're not making any money on that back catalog anymore. So that's a really interesting thing because Sony does allow you to stream games on the PlayStation four. Would they want to follow this television service, which is just delivering television shows, channels, movies, channels and things like that with a game service that says, hey, guess what, you can also now play games across platforms on your Roku on your Apple TV. Of course, they're not on Apple TV TV, but I could see, you know, if it's if it's the casual stuff that's not eating into their high end PS4 market, that being a nice value, I'm considering they already have the software there. It's, you know, whether or not it's I don't know. Anyway, they don't have to build the devices then. They just use exactly. Yeah. Zcash is launching its cryptocurrency offering Friday. You may not have heard of it, but wow, have investors. They're super excited about it. They actually, many investors think Zcash's ZEC tokens could match Bitcoin and value by the end of the year. Why would they be able to do that? Because investors are so excited by ZEC, it'll drive the value up, which is quite a bit of circular logic. We know that Zcash uses its own protocol called zero cash, which offers anonymous coins called zero coins and also non anonymous coins called base coins. So base coins work more like Bitcoin does. Zero cash and zero coins use a zero knowledge proof called a ZK snark, which allows basically both parties to provide each other with verified information without revealing the identities in the process. This hides the sender, the recipient and the value from anyone not holding a view key. Usually in Bitcoin, you see the entire transaction on the ledger. You'd have to have a view key to view it. And then as a holder of a view key for a transaction, you could share that with whomever you want, but you would need to. However, ZK snark requires some intensive proofs. And a lot of people are skeptical saying this is going to be difficult to scale. Once you start getting a lot of people use this, it's going to grind to a halt. Man, this is so exciting, though. It just gave it to built. I probably mispronounced that it's, you know, money makes the world go round, right? And if it's if that's what it's going to take to usher on bleeding edge cryptography, then all the better for it. I'm excited about this because, you know, as compared to the anonymity of Bitcoin, this, at least in theory, shows a lot more promise whether or not it will stand the test of time. Well, only time will tell because it needs to be peer reviewed and actually out there using, you know, being used. But but it's exciting that investors are now like big players in cryptography in a weird sense. Yeah, yeah. Although it does tickle me that investors are very bullish about Zcash because investors are so excited about Zcash. Right. Well, you know, it feels it feels a little like 2000, but that's all right. Yeah. Yeah. A little throw back to the dot com boom. Never heard anyone for permanently in most cases. Yeah, I'll go with that. Don't ask it. Flues, thanks to all those who participated or subreddit, you could submit stories and vote on them at daily tech news show dot reddit dot com. Let's get to the brains of the operation Google Brain. Google Brain is an AI research division of Google in Mountain View. It's different from DeepMind, which is alphabet who owns Google's operation in England. Researchers from Google Brain, Martin Abadi and David G. Anderson have been training three AIs to try to encrypt their messages or break into encrypted messages. And of course, anybody who knows anything about cryptography will recognize Alice, Bob and Eve. Those are the names of the three AIs. So if you've already run into Alice, Bob and Eve in cryptography lessons before, you already know what the roles are for these three people. But for those who are uninitiated, let me explain. Alice is an AI tasked with sending a secure message to Bob. Alice starts with plain text and a key and then outputs cipher text. Bob is tasked with encrypting with decrypting Alice's message. So Bob, the AI, starts with the in ciphered text from Alice and Bob's own key. So they they both have keys that they can use, the public keys and Bob's task is to output plain text. The loss function or the failure condition for Bob and Alice is Bob's guests can't be too far from Alice's original and Eve, who we have yet to introduce, can't have a guest that's better than random guessing. So if Eve is better than random guessing and guessing what Alice is sending Bob, the whole system fails. Eve is the man in the middle or in this case, the woman in the middle tasked with intercepting and decrypting Alice's message. Eve starts with the ciphered text from Alice and that's it. That's all she gets. She doesn't get any keys or anything. That'd be unfair. And Eve is tasked with outputting plain text. Her own loss function is actually different. She needs to hit a distance incorrect and incorrect bits between Alice's plain text and Eve's guests. So Eve has to guess a little better to succeed than her guests can cause Bob and Alice to fail, if that makes any sense. So Alice and Bob start with a shared secret key. So this is symmetric encryption. And Darren, they didn't do bad. Alice and Bob, but Eve and Eve couldn't really crack into their communications. And keep in mind, if you if you lost in all the Alice, Bob and Eve's, they weren't given a cryptographic system to use. They had to invent one. Right. All Alice and Bob, the only thing that those two bots were given were a symmetric key to start off with. So essentially they exchanged the password, if you will, from the get go. Maybe it was out of ban. Maybe they were at a conference and they whispered something in each other's ears. But Eve didn't hear that. But so all Eve could see was everything going between Alice and Bob there after. And so it's really interesting to see how these bots were able to just develop cryptography. And it wasn't just simple like, oh, we're going to zore everything like it's it's. I mean, the papers and out on exactly what methods they came up with. But it was better than the other bot that was trying to crack it was able to keep up with. And it was really cool to see how over time it was able to just like completely obliterate Eve's ability to decipher what was going on. This, of course, being symmetric key encryption. Right. So that just kind of ignores the entire problem of key distribution, which is a huge pain point. And I would love to see this research continue with PKI or public key cryptography or asymmetric cryptography, which is the kind of standards that we see used for, you know, well, PGP and SSL and all of the other awesome technologies that we take for granted today, because it would be cool to see if this could get better than what humans come up with. But I would say that there's an interesting little problem with trust here, because as opposed to, I don't know, pick a encryption standard AES, right, where I know what I put in and what I'm going to get out. I have expected results with the AI. You don't really know what it's going to do. So, yeah, there's that. Well, and that's the design of the test, right? They didn't they they instantiated or rather initialized all these AIs independently. And all they shared was the same mix and transform neural network architecture and then did 15,000 test runs. And most of the time, Alice and Bob evolved a system with few errors. In some tests, Eve improved over random, but then Alice and Bob would improve their own technique and response. So you didn't want to give them AES because that would improve anything except AIs can use AES. You wanted them to create a cryptography system and not only that to adapt it as Eve kept trying to crack the ciphertext. Right. I mean, essentially, it's a thousand monkeys with type writers and it would have been cool had they come up. I mean, how weird would it be if they like instinctively or not instinctively because they can't their machines. But what if they had come up with essentially AES, you know, that would just be hilarious. Right. I wonder what they did come up with. All of the only thing that's come out is that it was better than Zor, which is really stupid, simple. And that's because you could they couldn't actually see what the AI was doing internally. Yeah, the output because it was encrypted. The conclusions, the actual conclusions from the research are that neural networks can protect communications by solely prioritizing secrecy above all else. You can tell an AI prioritize secrecy and it's possible that it will be able to do it without any other tools or instructions. And as for Eve, while it seems improbable that neural networks would become great at crypt analysis, they may be quite effective in making sense of metadata and traffic analysis. That that was what Eve was able to show, even though Eve couldn't crack encryptions. And and yeah, they want to take this to asymmetric encryption next, public key, etc. They want to take it to steganography and see what they can do. But it would be an interesting turn for encryption. If in the future, you didn't rely on AES, you didn't rely on a cryptographic system, you just relied on having trustworthy AIs that would encrypt everything and decrypt things for you. Right, which would make decryption so much more difficult if it's always a constant mutation, because at least, you know, you can do there's certain signatures that you can figure out like, oh, this message looks like DES or this message looks like AES or this message looks like Blowfish, whatever have you. And then you start cracking on that cipher. If you're like, I don't even know where to begin with this. It makes it all the more fun. I'm really thankful that these that in this test, Alice and Bob were able to create encryption that Eve wasn't able to decrypt because had it been just so heart wrenching to read that Eve was always able to crack it. I would have my cyberpunk imagination would have immediately gone to Joshua, who as we know, the machine learning bot doing World War 3 over and over and over again came to the conclusion that the only winning move was not to play. And I'm just glad that the machine did not give up. Yes, it's an entirely dystopic future if Eve is always winning this because it means, folks, we can't really secure anything for the long term. Alison Bob winning seems to say like, hey, we might get to a system in the future where we don't have to worry as much about cryptography being broken, especially as we do now. I'm still not going to put my money down on either one of those outcomes because this is very early, but at least the first outcome is hopeful. Right. Well, we really have to worry about are the Hides, you know, the mischievous designers of crypto standards. Yep. You know, like the NSA with DES or RSA making weak ciphers by default. I mean, what we really need to worry about are the Martins and Davids who are creating these machines. Well, what we would like to see more of are some Wendy's the whistleblowers with. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Let's get to our messages of the day. A couple of good ones here today. Murray, the past and future hackers be damned blood donor in coughs Harbor, Australia has a story coming out of his neck of the woods. The Australian Red Cross is distributing an email to everyone that is donated to them over the last six years or so. So it's around 550,000 Australians. The details are posted by Troy Hunt, a security researcher has his story about how the breach happened. But basically, everyone involved seems to be practicing responsible disclosure about a hack. What happened was a contractor. This is the simplified version of contractor mistakenly put a file with all of this information on a public facing web server in September. It was noticed by someone not part of the Red Cross on October 24th. I think I have that date, right? And then Red Cross was made aware of it on October 26th. And as Murray says, everyone of all seems to be practicing responsible disclosure, which he says, I'm quite impressed by, to be honest. And the Great Cross's version seems to downplay Troy's version of events. But I'll let you read and decide for yourself. You usually have a great balanced outlook on these things. If you do run with it, feel free to post the general stuff in the email. Just not my personal details, if you don't mind. So yeah, I won't post the personal details. But but these are are definitely a hack that, you know, is of interest to a lot of Australians because you've got name, email address, et cetera in there. Right. And Troy Hunt, awesome security researcher that I've had the great pleasure of hanging out with. He runs the service HaveIBeenPoned.com, which is, you know, a project that helps you figure out you can pop your email in and see like how many times with different data breaches that you've been exposed by. I'm reading through this now. It's not clear whether or not this is going to be included in that. But he's usually really, really ridiculously ethical when it comes to this kind of stuff. So good on everybody, all those Aussies for being, you know, taking the high road on this. Yeah. And I think I think Martin's got it right. The Red Cross is is downplaying Troy's version a bit, but that is also typical when a security researcher talks and a normal human being talks because security researchers are like, hey, this is really bad and could be taken advantage of. And the normal person at the Red Cross goes, yeah, but I don't think it was. And you're freaking people out. And they're both kind of right. It doesn't seem like any any damage has happened yet. That doesn't mean something damaging won't come out of this eventually. And that's what Troy's pointing out. Oh, you know what, and as of Tuesday or as of Thursday evening, Troy Hunt has actually permanently deleted the copy that he was sent and that he's done this before actually did this when he was sent the information from the V tech breach, which included a bunch of children. So there you go. Yeah. Now, whether or not a bunch of black hats have it is. Yeah, that's that that's something we will probably find out if it if they do. We may never find out if they don't, you know what I mean? Like the fact that we never hear about it doesn't mean somebody out there didn't have it and just kept it quiet. Marlin from Trinidad posted on our blog about Lenovo's capacitive touch sensitive adaptive function row that was included on the X1 carbon laptop in 2014. He's saying, hey, I know, you know, Apple just perfects things, but let's point out that this new strip of lights across the top replacing a function row has been done before. Lenovo's adaptive function row had four sets of keys that it could cycle through. It wasn't universally programmable. And Lenovo took some heat when they introduced it for rearranging the keys on the X1 carbon. Like they put the tilde down between control and all or control and delete. They got rid of print screen and insert and put them up in the programmable keys. And so it wasn't exactly comparable to what Apple is doing, but it certainly was the same concept of a strip. And that reminds me that Razer machines also had full color switchblade keys on its game laptops, which were fully customizable. So again, you know, people who don't love Apple so much love to point out that people have done what Apple has done in the past. People who love Apple point out, yeah, but Apple is doing it better. And this is exactly one of those cases where you can you can think either one of those things. Right. Wasn't it in fact the Optimus keyboard? The there was also the Optimus with the programmable keys. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's the one where every single key was programmable. You know, I'm maybe this means that we'll see scroll lock hitting the Mac because that's just the key that that's been missing all this time that has been keeping me from that platform because it's my favorite key. Now, yeah, scroll lock. Yeah. Or what about pause break? But you know, I love I love me some pause break. Pause breaks pretty good. But people know what pause break is for. Right. Lock. I mean, unless you're running Wordstar, you probably don't know what that's for. And yet it is right here on the keyboard right now. Press it twice and hit up. See what happens. I don't think I'll do that right now. OK. And you folks probably shouldn't do that if you're doing anything important. Just hit all four for Ops. Yes. Hey, thank you, Darren Kitchen for joining us today and explaining about Bob, Alice, Eve, Heidi and more. Where can people find more about these topics and more? Oh, well, you know what? You can head over to the HAK five dot org and also see Shannon and Darren. And this week you can see Sammy Kamkar, who you may know from some awesome hacks such as Roll Jam or Max Spoof. Many of these other really cool hardware tools for doing various things like, I don't know, breaking into cars or spoofing credit cards and things of that nature. He's an awesome hacker and we had, you know, it's a true delight to have him on the show to just kick around, you know, shoot the breeze about what it is to be a hardware hacker. And I encourage everybody, you know, if you're just like curious about all of these things, this is a great episode for you to get in on. And so it's HAK five dot org. And that's where you can find all of our other shows and information on how to get involved in the our Sunday meetup at the hack five warehouse. If you want to get involved in the hackathon, we're going to be building all sorts of really cool modules for turtles and duckies. And, you know, just just having a little code bash. So check that out. The URL for that is code bash dot club. And of course, Len Peralta has been busily illustrating this episode. I see you have three characters, Len. Yes, because my mind is always in the 1950s, I took Bob Alice and Eve as an AI love triangle. Of course, Alice giving a note to Bob Bob trying to encrypt the note. But behind him is Eve who's trying to break into and figure out what exactly is going on. So I understand by talking to Darren earlier that that Bob Alice and Eve and Heidi as well are all things that are known within the hacker world. But this is kind of an interesting way of of of illustrating how encryption or cryptology works in my crazy little fifties, 1950s mind. So there you go. Hey, man, if it helps you understand encryption better, I'm all for it. Yeah, there you go. It might be something good for those just starting out to remember how encryption works. A lot more than that. Yes. Yes. Once again, that's total 1950s. That's Eve's attempt to decrypt. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Rubber hose decryption. And it's usually pretty good. It's Eve's implementation of bash. Yeah, perfect, perfect. I love it. I love it. So this print is a little bit different this week. We talked about it last week, but this week, if you like this print, you can actually download it right now at my online store, lendpropstor.com. There's a digital option and you can also choose the physical option, which lets me, you know, I can print it out, send it to you, all that good stuff. But if you are just are instantly want this, it's available right now at my online store, as well as I also want to mention. I just wrote a new comic called Heal Cut, which is dropping next Tuesday on the 1st of November. And you can pre-order that right now at my online store. And Tom's read it. And he gave me a pretty good review, you know, so if you trust Mr. Rear. It's really good. I identified way too much with a lot of it. Yeah, it's really well done. Thanks. It's a lot of fun. It's very personal. So it's it might be something you may want to check out. If you were following me on Snapchat and Instagram, you also been able to watch that process and you actually get to see what the finished product is. And finally, of course, don't forget the Daily Tech News Show superfan poster, which I'm doing, where you can actually be drawn into the poster. I've done a few of these. They're turning out awesome. A couple of them are already out there. And if you want to be a part of it, you can do that. Just go to the right to the front page of the store and choose the DTNS superfan poster. And remember, anybody that purchases it now through the end of the year gets thrown in to be chosen as the actual superfan that's going to be the generic poster for the year. So it's a good idea to get in there and get in early. So lentbrotstore.com. Thank you to everybody who makes this show possible. You know, not everybody can afford to do it. David and Mark just had to leave our Patreon. We will miss you, but we thank you for the support you gave us. There are other ways to support the show. DailyTechnewshow.com slash support has them. Big welcome to new patrons, Jonathan Weinman and Andre Christensen and a huge thanks to Will, who just raised his pledge. He said because he's really enjoying the full show that the patrons get with the pre and post show included in the MP3. You can find out about all that stuff at patreon.com slash DTNS. Our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We're live Monday through Friday, 4.30 p.m. Eastern at alphageekradio.com and diamondclub.tv. And of course, our website is dailytechnewshow.com. Back on Monday with Veronica Belmont and special guest Charlie Oliver, who's going to explain machine learning to us. Talk to you then. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program. Nice. I love that. I love that poster, Lynn. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you so much. Darren, let me know how that works out and see if you're able to get it. And I just purchased it. Yeah. And I'm just I'm interested to see how this works. I've never done it before. I'm sending the Epson right now. Let's see it. Now, that's pretty dang cool. You got to admit it's got to choose the matte paper. In fact, I'm going borderless, so this is going to look really good. That's pretty dang cool. Oh, but you never mind. It's actually not a full bleed pitcher. So no, it's not. If I don't I know, I don't make them full bleeds. Oh, really? No, because you when you will hang on when I normally order from you, you actually print those yourself and mail them. You don't. OK, cool. So what do you what do you use like an Epson and HP? It's you know what I think it's it's an Epson and I use just the just the the matte paper. And it comes out. It's like a laser. So it comes out really, really shiny and tight and stuff. Yeah, no, great prints. Everybody listening should, you know, I mean, the digital is awesome because I just downloaded it. That's crazy, man. That's just that's pretty amazing. I'm really excited to see how that works out. It was right at checkout. I just got a nice little download now right there. That's so cool. Four and a half bags. Yeah, really high res. So when when did you actually order it? Well, was it while he was talking? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've got over at the Lemp Rolta store. So I just check out like that and you know, it's it's twenty five fifty by thirty three hundred. So that's, you know, pretty it's yeah. It's high res. It's very printing right now. Yes, it's actually coming out of the print. Yeah, it's crazy. What's your turnaround time here? It's like five minutes. Yes. I mean, I mean, literally after we complete the show, you could have this print in your hand. It's just amazing. I don't mean to get all QVC, but that's pretty crazy. It is crazy. Like I know what you know, this is not a big deal. Like, yeah, it's digital. I downloaded it and I printed it. What's the big deal, Tom? But it's just kind of no hilarious. Yeah, it brings like a new a new level. Look at that. Oh, my gosh. That's so crazy. That is probably I think that looks pretty good. Yeah, it's going out great. Oh, my gosh. Like that like just like that's about as good as me being there with you and actually doing that for you. No, I think I'm going to do this from now on because I mean, not everybody has the kind of printer Derek's got. Right, exactly. Exactly. But it gives you that option, though. This this WF 70 10 is only a hundred bucks. So you could you could I mean, it's probably I mean, I don't want to boast about a printer or whatever, but this is my life. I absolutely love this printer and the quality that I get from it is. Wow, that's so cool. You to that. I just drew that right here. Yeah. I mean, hey, for a hundred dollar printer and I get like a really high quality print of lens work, you figure if you buy like what a hundred of lens drawings that really like amortizes out well. Yes, Stephanie Ray in the chat room asks a very pertinent question. How far is Cleveland from the Bay Area? Oh, OK, did we just how far apart are you? I think we may have beaten a station wagon full of zip disks. Possibly, I'm pretty sure you did. Yeah, I feel like we're like demonstrating like email or something from I know it's like not like anything amazing. No, I know exactly. It really is not cool. I mean, it is cool in that in that Darren actually has the art that I created for the show right in his hand right now tangibly. Yes, it looks great. Like on the screen, you know, when we were young, you couldn't do this, kids. Tinvec says we're two about twenty five hundred miles away from one twenty five hundred miles like that. Yeah, that I tell you by that, by the by the pixels, you know, twenty five fifty by thirty three hundred. And you've got, you know, how many pixels per mile per hour. Yeah, yeah. So here's something interesting, too. If you like, for example, people, I got a question about the comic that I'm doing and someone said, is there going to be a print option? I said, I'm not going to do a print option right now. It's just a digital download. But, you know, who's saying, man, if you can download it and you have a nice printer, you can print it out. You can actually, I mean, it's not like an actual comic book, but it is at size, right? It is the size of a comic book and we'll print out and you can, you can, you can do that if you want. It's pretty amazing. Oh, I'll probably let you figure out the show name here. Yeah, I don't know if Roger's having issues or he got called away, but I think I'm going to go with Alice in Cryptoland. Now, that's cool. Yeah, there's also that's an innovation of my privacy. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm playing devil's advocate on the new privacy thing. I mean, I think that it's great that they're like standing up for consumers. I'm just saying, don't don't think for a minute that they're doing it just for the warm fuzzies. Do you have a preferred title? Oh, there's Roger. Sorry, I you guys were kept going on about the print. I thought you guys are like, I didn't want to interrupt it. We know that's OK. We were pretty excited about it. It's like, you guys are like, well, that's an innovation of my privacy is top followed by Alice in Cryptoland. Although Alice in Cryptoland is pretty funny. I like that. Who I like Alice in Cryptoland. Yeah, I like that. To be honest, that's the first. I think I'm going to go with that. But if you want to read some other of your favorites in there, just to give credit, there's at a boy, the at a boy algorithm like that at a boy algorithm. And that an innovation of my privacy, Atomatic racism to the Facebook story. Google brains, brains. Alice and Eve, Bob Alice and Eve, Bob. Oh, Alice. Alice and Eve should be Alice and Eve, comma, Bob and we've cryptography. Get it, Bob and we've is what you. Yes, Bob and we've. OK, it took me a minute. Now I guess that's right. When you put a count, you need a comment. Yeah, yeah, Bob. This is a B conversation. If your way out. You race book races. OK, predictable. The cash is Blitzkrieg on Bitcoin. Alice and Zcash. I like Alice and Crypto. Well, I bet it's been done before, but I still like it. Yeah, what is that sound? Oh, sorry, I'm printing it. Oh, that's the printer. OK. That's the printer again. So I don't know if if Len thought about this, but the digital one, I can print it as many copies. I don't know that violates the license. One one for home and the office. I don't know. I mean, whatever. What I'm actually doing is I'm printing the other one on a Super B, so it's going to be 13 inches by 19 inches. Like, you know, I want to see if it scales real well. You know, it doesn't. I don't know because it's. What's a Super B? Super B is a page size, kind of like A1. Oh, oh, yeah, I got a Super B. I was thinking like you were printing on and like, oh, OK, yeah, I get this much better like presentation matte paper that I wanted to try out. It's looking pretty good. That's pretty cool. I mean, you know, I wonder, yeah, are you going to go back retroactively and update some of it? I don't know. That's a lot of work because I would have to. I would have to actually, you know, it's it is a lot of work. So I think it's like from from now on. I'm going to be doing that option because there's enough. There's enough in there that people, if they want to order a print, they would still need to order. They can order. They can download that one and also print out, you know. I was also waiting for Linda to start drawing Super B. Right. Well, I just wanted I was like, you know, it'd be nice to get another copy of Quanto, right? The oh, yeah. First ever the the Quanto Super computer from DTNS episode two or something. Yeah, no, I was one. Oh, was that the first one? I think that was the first episode. Was it really first episode? Quanto. Quanto was. Wow. Was it the first one that Len did? Yeah. Yeah, that's what it is. The first episode didn't have Len on it. The very, very, very first. But the first one we had Len on. Yeah. That's great. Wow. Quanto was the first. Yeah, Quanto was the first. There we go. That's that's what I'm talking about. Look at that. That's great. Super B size paper. That's that's plenty high resolution to do that. Yeah, absolutely. That's kind of why I wanted, you know, I was wondering if the Quanto one was because he's he's near and dear to my heart and I want a big version of him. Yeah, we thought about retroactively doing that with the with the 100 of their prints, but it's like that's like it's just it's a lot of work. Plus it's their hosting. So it turns into bandwidth issues and stuff like that. Well, you could do like a series, you know, the 20 2014 like down the big zip of all of them. Yeah, I actually I might do that. I might do that for I'll choose like 10 prints and I do them for the year. So maybe I'll do that. I'll do that option for the year or best of, you know. So maybe I'll maybe I'll create that. And then that's how all that's how I'll do that. It's good stuff. Looks great. It's awesome. That's really, really cool. That's amazing that that that that actually happens. Next Friday, I don't I don't think I'm going to be I don't think I'm going to be able to be here, but I am still going to I'm still going to draw the top story just like I did last year and then just, you know, put it up there. Oh, OK, so so you'll be out the fourth then. I'll be out the fourth. Got it. Deleting you only this instance. Well, fine. We'll be here. Sorry. No, I have to. I have to I'm hosting an auction that night. So really, do you have to do the whole chant? The chant, you know, we got five. No, no, no. I hear six. I hear six. Six. Six. No, it's for my kids. School. I'm the I'm the emcee. So I am C. Peralta. Yeah. See, you know, I was talking about me and I'm here. I was I was talking about if I were a baseball player, what I would what I would wear. And I think I would wear one of them big old, like, you know, necklaces, you know, like I would have a huge, a huge gold necklace around. And and I think I would look. And then also the other thing I said I would do is I would grow my hair super, super long and put it all like in a bun inside my helmet. So when it took it off in between innings, it would be like this really long, flowing, you know, like a huge top knot. Yes. No, it'd be a huge flowing gold main. But when you when you undo the top knot, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it'll be underneath my helmet. Right. So. But I think I'd also you wanted so you could just take off the batting helmet. Yes. Just cascade. Exactly. I get it. But everything around like everything around it is just like shaved short. So you just got like Fabio Peralta. You got this look like, oh, man, that guy's got really like short hair. There's a guy in our team, Ramirez, who does that. He's he's it's not like flowing main, but he's got like bright, a bright yellow afro underneath there that he is. It's always surprising when he takes off his batting helmet. I'm just thinking of you with a long, flowing main. It's hard. Not to be the next print and with the with the jean jacket on, too. Yes. Oh, man. I should have probably worn that today. We were going to we were going to we totally forgot. I forgot that. You know, man. Yeah. And Monday is Halloween or we could have could have done Halloween costumes. Oh, well. Are you guys going to dress up for Halloween? I'm dressing up on Sunday for the code bash hackathon at the warehouse. Oh, cool. That's great. Are you going to do? Is it a secret? Your costume? Yes, it's a secret, even from me at this point, I see. It's it's like that, is it? Yeah, that's that that good. Yes, I am. I am dressed up. Well, when I was working on the costume. Yeah, today is my daughter's birthday. Tomorrow is my birthday. So we're having a big birthday party, group birthday, hearty costume party. Thank you. And and I'm going to be Deadpool. Did I? Yeah, you know, you were telling us that it was coming along good. Oh, yeah, it's it's really, really good. And the weather is nice and cool and crisp. And so I can just wear that and be warm. So you can walk around and crack wise. Yeah, the only problem is, is that I wore it once to pick my son up from work. And you've been banned from picking him up. Well, yes, he would not. He would not even look at me or walk. But I fit the eyes with this special mesh that then I after like I after I was like running around and trying to be all Deadpool-ish, I realized there was no airflow. Oh, no, that's not good. So I'm like, I'm like, oh man, I can't really start dancing because it was like, there's not too much airflow going in. So I have to kind of sit and be, you know, or not wear that helmet for that for too long. I'm supposed to go to the YouTube space is having this Halloween event. It's not like a private party. It's a public event and I'm supposed to dress up. So I think I'm just going to put on my lab coat. I'm just going to be super lazy and put on the lab coat. I'm scientist guy doing the science. You should put an S on your chest and go as super lazy. Super lazy. That would actually be more work than putting on the lab coat. Roger, you should go as Roger C. All the Roger C's. I'll just come out with one hand is like airline, airline tickets, a new Apple product and a brochure from Home Depot for new flooring. Right will be a bunch of dating advice. What else? Pharmacy prescriptions and bar menus of various jolly Roger bars from around the world. And I'll just be mixed up. Slippery nuts says that you just put on blue wig and be Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty. Oh yeah. That'd be easy. With the lab coat. Yeah. Let's go get it. If I had a blue wig, I totally would. I would just go to one of those Halloween super stores. Yeah, totally. Also a lot of work. Actually, you know what? That's really ridiculous. There's one walking distance from my house to be honest. That's so much work. Opening the door. Eileen could be Morty. I'm sorry, Rick. I don't know Rick. Something's wrong. I can't really do that. I can do a Marty, okay, a Morty. I can't do Rick as well. Rick is, he talks like this, man. He talks like he talks like New York. He talks like Dan Harmon is what he talks like. Yeah. No, that's Justin Roiland, I thought. No, but he's imitating Dan Harmon apparently. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah, that's his imitation of Harmon. Listen, that's what Brushwood told me. He heard in one of the Parmintan episodes. That's funny. Kind of a cousin of the man that cuts my daughter's hairs. Yeah, Eileen has a pink wig, but not a blue wig. Geez, Rick. That's just how lazy I'm trying to be. I've got, I've even got safety goggles that I could wear. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, I could actually just like stand my hair up on the end and I could go as Doc Brown. Oh, and I'll do gigawatts. Yeah, see, that I could do. 1.21 gigawatts. It's not you, Marty, it's your kids. It's not very good. But we're going, we don't need roads. I've been fighting a sore throat across space and time. Pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. That's a, that's a horn heavy soundtrack. That's Alan Silvestri for you, right? He did the music for that. Classic Silvestri. It's weird how you can kind of pick out who, who wrote, who composed what, soundtracks. Like James Horner is very identifiable. Like it doesn't matter what movie he does. It's just, it always has those trumpets. Like, yeah, I like post to Star Wars guy. Who's Star Wars? John Williams, John Williams. He hates it when you call him Star Wars guy, by the way. I'm sure Danny Elfman's another person. Other movies. You know what I call Danny Elfman? I call him the guy from Oingo Boingo, just to piss him off. He probably likes that. No, he hates it. Nobody, nobody recognizes my work with him. For the longest time, he, he was like, he wanted nothing to do with Oingo Boingo. I am not, he wrote that biography, I am not Oingo Boingo. And then later, after he came to terms with it, he wrote the biography, I am Oingo Boingo. I'm just a Boingo. I'm not Oingo. It's like Hootie and the Blowfish. Darren Rucker isn't, or what's his name? Is it Darren, right? Or no? They're Kitchen. He's right here. No, no. On the call. Hootie and the Blowfish, and I kept calling him Hootie. It's like, that's not my name. That's your name. Oh yeah. That's like, that's like Pink Floyd. People asking where Pink is. Which one is Pink? Never heard that. That's fantastic. That's right, Biocow. Darius Ruck, something. I can't work. All right, we are uploaded. We are posted. We are ready for action. Thank you everyone for watching or listening. Cool. We are ready to privately see the prototype not live on video.