 So we basically just want to hear and share your experience over time, setting up the OCDS portal in Naba, how many states? Is it up to 10? No, we work with about six states there, right? Oh yeah, six, wow. So six is actually a good number to be able to tell what the common challenges are, what the common recommendations are. Now this is specific to the OCDS portal because I know you're instrumental in the entire OCDS process, at least for Haduna states. The setting up of the PPA is more like a government initiative. Initiative. I know you've worked with OCP to ensure that these portals are integrated in the whole public procurement setup. So again, just your experience working with these six states, setting up the OCDS portal, how would you say it has been over time? That's an interesting question, but I'll say above everything, I would also say that it has been a learning experience for me and for the organization as well. As you are aware, Cardinal state was the first state in Nigeria that we started working with and supporting to implement the OCDS. So there was a lot of learning that came with it, but I can also say that working with all the several states that we've also worked with, the experience has been quite different and it depends on the level of preparedness that the state has in terms of what kind of infrastructure they have put in place to support these OCDS systems that we're trying to build. And aside having the infrastructure on the ground, it's also about what kinds of motivation they have to not only kickstart, keep it running and ensure that we have, ensure that we're meeting to go and collectively set out together. And maybe I can just speak more about my experience with Cardinal state and then maybe if there are any differences from what we've also experienced in other states, I would be sure to point them out. As you are aware with Cardinal state, we started off the OCDS conversation sometime in 2017 and this conversation started at the point where Cardinal state was signing off to the ODP and also committing to signing off to the OCDS standard. So there was already that level of commitment from the states and level of willingness to be able to work with us, provide us with the right resources, with the right level of support that we needed to be able to implement these OCDS. One thing that I would say for sure is and I have learned this over time is that and I think you took me a bit of time to get to this point of realization but the OCDS being a digital system is supposed to enhance what the state is already doing. So it doesn't necessarily be common like what I say, it doesn't necessarily come and act as that change agent that you would expect it to be. Of course the OCDS, the OCDS has requirements to stay that for you to be able to say you are fully implementing open contracting that means you need to do A, B, C, D but then again the OCDS is about publishing contracting data. So it's sort of like the byproduct of the public procurement process and if the public procurement process within the state is not not fixed, is not up to a certain standard then it's going to make it quite difficult to implement open contracting and even if you do it might still find difficult to be able to reap some of the benefits of open contracting as we understand it to be. So that's why I said that it's very important and it also defines the experience that states have some sort of structure laid down to be able to fully implement these systems. One of those systems or one of those structures is like we said having the public procurement act and you also know that the public procurement act was already set up was already passed and was in use in fact it was the act that established the public procurement authority in Cardinal which is the leading agency in implementing open contracting so if that law was not passed there would be no agency and if there was no agency there would be nobody who would take on this process, lead the process and make it possible for us to be able to implement this system and Leslie you know from this research that PPDC also did recently one of the things that we had found out was that whilst we you know whilst there's that push for you know things like localizing the freedom of information act so as to make information more accessible we also found that that the public procurement act had already you know talked about government agencies making their data available accessible and ensuring that citizens or all stakeholders have access to it and which is the most important you know part of this OCDS system because the OCDS what it eventually did was to say whilst you are making your data accessible whilst you are making it available if you try to put it in this format you should put it you know on through a digital platform where everybody can access these are the views that you should ensure should be available so all of those things yeah the OCDS sort of like tries to make sense of all of the data that is published by linking but the main work started off from when you know Cardenas did sign up to the OCD when the yes when they also um you know did the public procurement act as well yeah so so those two things now you will say are maybe like um how like what should I call them drivers yes to the OCDS portal yes um so interestingly like you said yes the drivers at the time as of 2017 when we started off supporting states to um to sign up to open contracting one of the one of the one of the punchlines that we that we used at that time to get their buying was to let them know that um first of all we at PPDC were um providing the service um at no cost and also um it's sort of like it meets with the um open government partnership um commitments that that the states had signed up to um but more recently we found that that um as as an offshoot of the OGP which was um which World Bank is one of the major stakeholders they they began to think about ways that they can ensure that more people are not only signing up to the OGP but mixing up with the um with with this commitment and that's when they came up with the um um uh with the SIFTA's SIFTA's program uh I'm trying to be the what the full distance for SFTS CAS state fiscal transparency accountability and sustained sustainability program program yes thank you um so and what this program essentially did was to begin to um to to create incentives for states to um not only sign up to things like open contracting uh but also you know push states to be able to um you know do do the work so in essence publishing data on the portal ensuring that um data is available on the portal especially within the pilot um sectors that the program had mapped out which were health education and um books so this is also um SIFTA's has been in um in the works for I think they are in the fourth year now and it has also become a very critical driver because um the incentives for implementing open contracting um and other um parts of this program were you know being able to access um funds from the world bank funds which are more like um grants where the you know the gift to the state to implement projects and not like loans where they have to pay but so states knowing that this kind of uh monies were available and this then became one of the major drivers for um you know for for implementing open contracting and not to say that other states have not also been trying to implement this um open contracting you know for the reasons of trying to um be more open and be more accountable as well but this has also the SIFTA's has been a very critical um player in ensuring that states are signing up and publishing data um on the OCS photos which I think was going to take me to my next point but it seemed like you had already started touching on needs now you said you were letting the states at least the ones you have worked with understand that this was without charge it was FOC free of charge yeah so how come um not every state is jumping on that offer have you been able to have to approach every state or are you working to select particular states like I will for something that's interesting or something that um something that is adding to one of the SIFTA's DLI I would have assumed that every state should be jumping on the offer so what has been your experience trying to get states to jump in the offer yeah so so so what I would say is that um I'll start off by saying that first of all we know that um Nigeria has a culture of um secrecy um which started a long time ago right from when we um regained our democracy um and if we even look at the history of um public procurement in Nigeria and how it came to be the milestones you would see that up to um up to before 2007 when um the public the public procurement act was passed at the national level um citizens um did not even understand the concept of public procurement or how it is that um goods and services from the government came to be so so so what we're seeing right now is a is sort of like a cultural shift from when the government used to um if people would sit down in the room um think about projects to do money should be disbursed setting people to implement projects and um whether it was done or not uh well the citizens were the ones who had to pay for it right so we we gradually started moving from that level to the point where public procurement is beginning to have more structure but then even though this structure exists hello let's lie there yes I'm here I was disconnected for some seconds but I'm back oh okay yes I can hear you oh yeah yeah I'm actually back just disconnected and reconnected okay so I was just saying that even though this um even though this cultural shift is in existence yes we have also seen and and this is research based that um the private sector are more accustomed to um an informal method of public procurement where um they gain access to contracts through different forms of bribery and corruption that involves um civil servants involve um executives at the md level and and also um high levels of of the government and because of that level of yeah indictment um um people who are you know within the circles are likely not to uh want to have certain information especially contracting information made available um because this would then be become um you know evidence or become um what people can use to take action against them so because of that and because up till now we still have that kind of um we still have that kind of system of procurement still happening in Nigeria it has become you know it's quite difficult for um for government to be able to easily put out contracting information knowing fully well of all the bribery and corruption that has on that that is happening within um this contracting space so that is why you would see that even though um PPDC is providing providing the service um free of charge and even though they are um they are also incentives from the world bank um from you know technical support um these grants and all of that available states are still not willing to sign up because um a lot of them when they compare the what they could potentially be gaining from um carrying out shady deals and also from hiding their um from hiding you know their acts they would rather you know not have that information made available even though uh some of these incentives exist so it means the incentives they are gift us grant hello let's I think unless I lost you for a second okay I was asked I was asking I said is it possible to say is it okay to say that maybe why most of these government um authorities are not jumping on your offer and that is offering the OCDS pottery of charge is it okay to say that in what they are getting from their acts whatever systems they are using now is not up to what they will gain from the sifter's grant hello yeah hello Leslie yeah can you hear me now I can hear you now I think my internet is also a bit unstable but I didn't get the last question okay so my last question was is he okay to say that what these authorities the ones who have refused to sign they're into now is it okay to say that the sifter's grant will not give them as much as what they are getting from their acts because like you said look at it from two ways if you adopt the OCDS portal it is a plus to the World Bank sifter's program but some states would prefer not to adopt the OCDS portal and stick to the old ways of doing things so it means they're actually getting more from the old way of doing things than they would from the sifter's grant yeah it might not necessarily be more but it's the fact that um money's received from the sifter's grant uh you know for the states to spend uh the members whereas money's getting through uh through bad thoughts uh through bribery through corruption um goes directly to the bank accounts of uh individual individuals that are participating in this sort of act and who also happen to be um in in the positions of authority to make decisions about whether to sign up to some of these reforms or not okay so I want to also ask and you don't have have to mention any states well has that been a case of approaching a state with this offer free of charge and the state rejecting it or you know putting you on hold or suspension or something yeah more like it's it's not it's not really a um it's not really it's a thing of rejection frustrating process for instance there was a state there was a state that we started off with because how the process would usually do is to first of all get talking to people within the state introduce the host ideas introduce the entire concept showcase what we have done in other states or with other government agencies and then we'll work together to put together a work plan um and sort of just draw out the goals that we want to achieve when we want to achieve all of that and once we have an agreement who usually sign um an MOU or at least sign an an agreement to say that these are the working conditions um so there's a state where we had gotten to the level where we signed an agreement um and then it was just a matter of uh as the agreement was signed um for us to begin taking the next steps um you know in terms of implementing um the host ideas and at that point we couldn't get any form of responses from the states from individuals and that was just how we left it so it's not them already saying oh no we're not interested in this but they would then say um yeah we might be interested we'll get back to you um sort of like when you're applying for a job and um the employer doesn't really find interesting yeah and doesn't want to come out to just tell you but again um just you know we have a couple of people who have joined and I'm happy to have everyone um on the call um like I said the recording will be widely shared so in case you have missed anything I think you can always go back to the recording and hear what we had talked about but what exactly do you offer these states these six states that you are working with now you know just so that we know when you say you know you showcase the work you have done with other states to maybe um prospecting states what exactly do you show them or what exactly have you done with the states for example Kaduna that you have worked with in Chiampas and you are still working with what what service do you exactly offer okay so um so like I mentioned earlier when we talk about implementing open contracting um it's basically um saying that a state or a government institution is deciding to um openly share contracting information you know to to citizens or to stakeholders uh so so that would mean um first of all developing a central system where contracting information from the planning stage um up onto the point of implementation is published um ensuring that there is a system within um there is a system within these government agencies to be able to collect this data unless you'll be aware uh a lot of the government agencies in Nigeria up until recently have been practicing the manual method of procurement where everything is done on paper and um filed and kept in in in the um in a locker somewhere and and um now open contracting is is a digital system so we essentially work with these states to first of all um collect these data um this data that they have from the past um converted um to soft copies um upload on the open contracting um um portal now something very interesting about the open contracting data standard and and i'll give you some context to it is um it links up data across different stages now the reason why this is important or maybe you might not really know the importance of this is that as a setting stage when um we at ppdc started um doing contract monitoring which is essentially looking through contracts that have been awarded and ensuring um ensuring that they are implemented um in accordance with the agreements that that were done we found that that if for instance you are looking for a contract on um construction of a um school a primary school in your community and you go to the implementing agency and you ask um please can i get details of um the needs assessment that was done um that led to this contract being awarded um they will tell you oh um go to the planning department and uh when you go to ask about the details of the um the number of people who who submitted um bids or tenders um for the project um they would probably tell you to go to the procurement department and uh when you are looking for information on uh how much has been paid to the contractor or to date they would most likely tell you to go to a different government decision uh most likely ministry of finance um to get that kind of information yes so um so what what makes the host yes unique is that it's sort of it creates a a unique link between um the different stages of a contract um across board so with one unique identifier you can easily pull up um information of a particular project at the tender stage at the award stage um and at the implementation uh stage so this now simplifies and sort of makes sense of the data that that is available so um in or in all supporting the state to implement open contracting what we also do is to um collect this data from the different um stages from the different locations put them together assign a unique identifier across the stage and then upload it on the portal so that anybody who is looking for um details of a particular project can easily pull up um this data and what we also do is to um create access points at the different um the ministries department and agencies different bodies of government so that um at each and everybody's convenience they can continue to upload data as the procurement goes so it's not just about waiting to the final stage where all the procurement has been carried out all the stages have been completed before the project is is uploaded but um with this open contracting um data standard as soon as because a project at its inception is giving a unique identifier whatever um actions happen as a part of that process is easily linked um to this to this unique identifier and any user from anywhere can easily pull up um any data that is related to that particular project so our work usually um entails um first of all training the staff of the government agencies because open contracting is a fairly new concept um training them on the open on the concept of open contracting um training them on on the data standard itself because the data standard is and is an international um standard out that was created by um stakeholders from different countries so some things that exist in the standard might not necessarily be the same as what we have at the um at the Nigerian or the uh subnational context so it is also our duty to sort of localize um those fields localize the standard in the way that suits the procurement system of what the state or what the government is is practicing so we do that um and we usually are responsible because of our um technical expertise we usually develop this um online system um by you know we develop a front end where um citizens can access the data we also develop a backend where people from the government side can upload this data and once we do that we do trainings for um for both um state and non-state actors and then a lot of times after we have handed over these systems to the government we also take on the duty of providing sort of like a a light support um of posts uh post deployment supports to the states where um at points where they have issues and where where there are things that they don't understand uh we come in um try to figure it out try to um support them and then sometimes when those states do not yet have the technical um expertise to be able to update the system and the system needs to be updated they usually uh would request for us to come and support so that's um typically what you know what our services entails okay so you build this platform from scratch it's not like there's a template that you just adopt and you know fill in this you too you build it yourself on scratch uh yeah so so after building for the first um two states uh we sort of created like a a reusable model where um whichever state we are supporting we don't necessarily build from scratch but it's sort of like just customize the features to meet um you know the state peculiarities in terms of their processes and the kinds of collecting okay yeah that's interesting so before I go to like the common challenges and maybe you would um just mention the six states I wanted to know because I know there was an event I missed last week by ocp and he was talking about legislating the ocds also um is there any because again like the system in kaduna where I am is actually um it's a bit it's a bit of a challenge sometimes when you're looking for some information you know we've actually discussed this before we have the issues of incomplete data in fact there was a spreadsheet we downloaded recently and I shared with a couple of guys you know where in the middle and I called them and said hey come and see what do you think should be done to this person someone uploaded a blank excel spreadsheet on um I think the e-procurement of the kaduna states um portal that was linked to the ocds blank what I mean blank it was blank nothing we looked at it I think there were like three sheets open and they were all blank so legislation any move so far because again this system will go a long way to check the imbalances in the procurement system in the public procurement system and I guarantee you if no one is really issuing out any penalties for not you know doing the right things people can just say okay yes hey unlike the states that said um or that were trying to you know play around with you some can say hey yeah why not come on board we accept it you know like I always say kaduna and they're already trying to tag me as mr ticking the box because I always say this some of these things are done just to tick the boxes and once the box is ticked oh yeah come we are one of the states that have signed you know the ocds and we are using it but they don't again sustain it so are there any plans for legislation around the ocds quarter because I know there's the public pro procurement act but as I described I don't think the ocds was captured if I'm not mistaken so any plans for legislation yeah so in terms of plans for legislation I might not necessarily be in the position to speak but what I can say is that legislation is very very critical currently in terms of legislation for most states what we have as the backbone for for you know for implementing open contracting is usually the public procurement act and if you look at the art and the section where it talks about publishing data especially even at the federal level you know it only says that that government agencies are supposed to publish data oh sorry they're supposed to submit their data to to the public procurement authorities or to the regulatory bodies which is usually the the bureau of public procurement authorities at least three rather at most three months after the end of the financial year and then yeah it also it also says that government institutions are supposed to keep physical and digital copies of all aspects of procurement for a period of at least 10 years after the procurement has happened so so even though this this public procurement act and then of course the freedom of information act which is a federal law that talks about the power of citizens to gain access to information that is classified as public information and it also talks about government bodies proactively putting out that information and it gives in details some of the information that is considered as public public information and the number of days or the structure in which the the information should be made available right so so this laws definitely supports open contracting but then again just like the way I've said it that there are a bit big in terms of how it mandates government agencies to put out information for instance the open contracting like I said earlier the open contracting data standard covers procurement the entire change from the beginning to the ending and defines the fields that make up this public you know that make up this open contracting data now because these kinds this existing legislature do not necessarily mandate government agencies to say you must put out ABCD information you must put it out as soon as possible and all of that it's then sort of leaves room for government agencies to be able to pick and choose what kinds of data they are putting out and just like you said they do this to meet sometimes the minimum standards for to either meet transparency or you know the minimum standards to meet some of the commitments that that the states have signed up to and that's why you can go on on this photos and see that the quality of the data that is put out there is very poor because of the format the data is put out in the gaps that exist in the data to the points that users cannot cannot make sense of it so like I said open contracting is still sort of like a new field stakeholders are learning governments are learning from the process users of the data are learning from the process and one of the learnings that are coming out is the fact that the data that is available now is not enough and the only way to ensure that the government improves their threshold for publishing of data is by you know making amendments to available calls or developing new laws that ensure that that spells out which which data should be made available how we should be made available and all of that so we are PPDC because we are kind of like the leading organizations you know in open contracting implementation in Nigeria we have been also trying to push for these kinds of legislations and ensuring that governments begin to move beyond what the level of implementation they have now to the point where you know there is data that is of and we are doing that through trying to ensure that we have the the the right laws and policies that are guiding how open contracting is being implemented yeah so you're already touching on you know what I was saying will be the next question and that's on the common challenges but again you can just maybe summarize what you think are the common challenges across the six states that you are currently working with so I think I think one of the places where we always use as a starting point is political view and which is essentially the politicians or members of the government at the high level buying into you know some of these commitments or wanting to ensure that they are implementing some of these reforms but more recently we've begun to see that aside from having commitments at that from the political class and at that high level there is also a challenge of getting commitment at a more primary and secondary level talking about the civil servant whose duty on a day-to-day basis it is to make this data available and this can also be traced to like I said in the beginning this culture that exists in Nigeria about you know not wanting to be in transparent not wanting to be held accountable and just also in the way that public procurement is being practiced and also relating to that is also the fact that there is currently a very very high level of corruption in the public procurement process across different levels of Nigeria so because of the fact that that sort of corruption exists that has a very tight grip on the public procurement system it is difficult to get people who are very well part of this corrupt system to begin to move from you know from the system that are currently practicing to a system where there is no corruption and therefore information can be made available in the research that we did in 2018 we found that that in fact for private sector it was of the opinion that they and they told us that it is it is sure for them to go through this informal method of procurement to access contracts rather than going through the formal contracts because it gave more guarantee it's your money talking so yeah with money able to buy contracts able to pay bribes to public officials and private sector yes and accessing contracts will not be left to chance whereas you know going through the formal method of procurement is left for you know is still left for people to decide whether procurement whether a contract should be awarded to a certain contractor or not so because these kinds of issue affect the public procurement system itself it is then difficult for the public to understand to be able to bring out meaningful data that can then be published and for us to say that we are practicing open contracting but a size that we also have things like the lack of technical capacity for you know for governments for civil servants to be able to participate or to properly implement open contracting from from my experience I've seen a lot of government agencies who are expected to who are so expected to keep who are expected to keep digital copies of procurement data who do not have computers within those government agencies they do not have reliable internet they do not have even the skill set to be able to make use of computers or to be able to publish these make use of these systems to publish data on the open contracting system so I think there is a lot of a lot of work that we see that needs to be done and even though I might not be speaking to all of them but most of them can can be linked to some of these examples that I've given. Yeah we are orientation capacity building those are very key you know things that we need to help this process achieve it's a good so it's um I think before we open the floor for questions if Eli and Essen have any questions can you do us the favor of mentioning the six states that you're currently working with I know Kaduna my state is actually one of them. Okay so we're working with Kaduna state, Ekiti state, Anambra state, Abya state what's the last one? Emo state currently. Wow okay like you have a lot of states from from the east yeah it seems our eastern brothers are not trying to come last in this race for for some of these reforms so they have actually been they have in fact amongst the states those states from the east have been one of the states that have been really trying to push to ensure that um that we are available to them to to support them to to implement this system but I also like to mention that aside from these six states. So you said aqua bomb too Abhi? No aqua bomb currently and we are not supporting them for open point. Okay so please can you just run through this? Yeah so I was like I was just about sorry I was about to mention that I've decided this six states that I'm going to mention again there are other states that are implementing open contacting but not with the support of IPDC. IPDC oh okay okay okay yes but the six states I mentioned are Kaduna state, Anambra state, Abya state, Emo state, Ekiti state oh yeah and Kogi state so there are actually seven of them. Okay no I just come again let's see. Yeah Kaduna state, Anambra state, Abya state, Emo Ekiti Kogi so there are seven and we also have Adamoa state so which is actually eight so it's eight states that we are currently supporting. Okay so the other states uh the other states have the portals will not be supported by IPDC. Yes yeah okay thank you very much. Good question. Thank you. It's been a very very interesting discussion and you know again I'm happy to hear this this things we worked together on the last research that IPDC carried out and you know we gained some insights into some of these things you have mentioned but again I was working for only Kaduna state and it's interesting to hear what some of the other states are also experiencing so I don't know if Eli and Essien have questions but we don't want to say anything on the call. Eli are you there Essien? Yeah hi it's Eli here Vancouver candidate so I'll admit I don't know a lot about what's happening at the Nigeria state level but I think it's really interesting that you were able to successfully advocate for the adoption of these these open platforms around procurement where they always double a lot. I'd like to hear a little bit more about how did you successfully lobby and convince the government to adopt this method like what was your approach to getting public adoption for these? Okay thanks so we would usually start off with identifying sort of like a prominent politician or prominent civil servant who we thought that was first of all already doing work around the kinds of things that we wanted to achieve and then would also map out the the kinds of influence that they have to be able to you know push for some of these things so then we would approach them talk to them and from there once we're able to get their buying we sort of just use them through that process of trying to gain access to other prominent politicians or other prominent members of the government. For instance in 2014 when we started advocating for the Nigerian government at the federal level to sign up to open contracting we found out that the attorney general of the federation at the time was somebody who was very much interested in transparency very much interested in accountability and then we approached him we were able to secure a meeting where we did the presentation and you know just talked about the system itself what we hope to achieve with it and then as soon as we got we got the buying the next thing we heard was that the president was also interested the Nigerian president was also interested in in the entire Nigerian government at the federal level signing up to this to this reform so it is usually about finding the somebody who has access and somebody who aligns with your goals and being able to make them to buy in into some of these reforms and then trying to support them to be able to push it for adoption at higher levels. Right so you really took an elite strategy for making this change rather than a grassroots strategy where you had you know advocates in the streets you know protesting. Yeah so over time we've also seen that having that grassroots alignment is also critical because it is one thing like I was telling Leslie it is one thing to have the political view at the highest level there is another thing to get buying at the low levels and the medium levels so we kind of take like a mixed approach where we are first of all trying to get that buying at that high level and then we begin to also source for buying at the grassroots level so this is sort of like creating supporting the supply side but also creating demand from the grassroots level so it's sort of like a mixed approach. Thank you that's helpful I think there's lots to learn from your successful strategy on this campaign. Yeah thanks a lot. Yeah as soon you have any questions for our guest okay maybe as soon as not close um so just one last thing Vashemar I'd like to know if you are already okay okay. Yeah I got some understanding from what he was saying so I currently don't have any question because for us here we are trying to see how we can implement something similar to your own contract as he was explaining but from I would try to see how I can link up with him later because he shared some really important insights and see how we can just pick his brain on something but today was really insightful I really learned a lot. I encourage you to have any questions. Thank you very much thank you so my Vashemar my last point will be to ask you if you have successfully taken advantage of tech soup offers on you know some of the digital tools you use have you? So to be honest I haven't and before I was invited to be a guest here I hadn't heard about tech soup but it's something that I would definitely love to explore and see um what kinds of features would be helpful to me as a tech person as well and as somebody who is working in various communities it would be nice to see how I can leverage whatever advantages tech soup has to offer. Thank you very much and I'll be happy and I know Eli also will be happy to make that happen once you are ready. We have offers across different digital tools Microsoft, Adobe, Zoom just name it and I think we actually have it. So it's been an interesting discussion once again thank you everyone for coming on the call like I said for those who couldn't make it will make the recording available because again everybody who listens to this knows that there's a lot to learn and there's a lot to be done and we are all stakeholders in this together so we hope to have you come back again Vashemar or anybody from your team to come and throw more light on how we can all successfully be part of implementing the open contracting data standard. So have a very good night anytime thank you thank you yeah thank you thank you Eli thank you Asandu and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you so much thanks for hosting this and we will share the recording later today. Thank you.