 I'm here at the Martin E. Segal Theater Center, the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan, the city of New York, which is being hit so, so hard by this virus. And we live in a time, as someone said, it's artodian time, and we all have to stay on the right side of madness. As Richard Schreckner said, it's a Fukushima type of explosion we live in, but the reactor roof is open. We look inside, we see everything. We see the structures, the forms that don't work. It's all naked, and it's existential. Everybody in this theater business is still out of work for months and months and months ahead. Nobody knows what's going on, what will happen, when they will reopen. And we are speaking since 12 weeks now to artists around the world from Egypt and Taiwan and China and Belgium, Germany, Italy, and South Africa, Burkina Faso, everywhere. To hear from artists, what shall we be doing? What shall we be thinking about? What do we have to do? What is of importance at the moment? And the situation here is disastrous in America, it's shocking. Like yesterday we had a call from Malaysia, and they said, our government was magnificent. Everything is working well, and here it is, and there are reasons for it. And there are forms that work, as Joseph Boy said, forms that don't, and that's why art is important, because it questions forms and shows new forms. With us today, we have an artist who I think is really an innovator, a creative force, and someone we should all listen to. Her engagement in art and life was her work, her body, and her own work is truly exceptional. And she is close to our field, the field of performance and theatre, even so, of course, it is far away from the well-made British play that we see so often of broadways when white families sit around tables and discuss their problems. It's completely different. And it's Tanya Bruguera and of those of us in the audience who know who she is, but she's a Cuban artist who early on had a radical, I think, political, social agenda in her art, but also art. It has a great aesthetic, and she has been in trouble for what she did. It's about power and control her work, and she's been arrested, jailed for her work, but she has created amazing things. And also in New York, actually, in, I think, in Corona, in Queens, where she lived with her family, with five kids, and there also she created her school, the Catreda Art de Conducta, the Behavior Art School, which she also did in Havana. And I think you all should look her up, but she's well known. She doesn't really need us. What we need is to hear from Tanya. Also, how is she going through this time? How is she experiencing it? And what is of importance for all of us to think about? And we have to think in new ways. Tanya, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. Where are you and what time is it? Well, thank you very much for inviting me to this amazing series of conversations. Well, I'm right now in Havana. It's super hot and not only in temperature, but also in activism. Today, we are one of the reasons I, you know, you know, I was kind of very close to the moment of the start is because we had three, four friends, activists who have been detained right now, right now. So I was talking to the people in the campaign to see what we do because what they have done, basically, they were sitting in the park with their, I don't know how you say, the mask and the police came because he was going to smoke. And then they came and took them to prison. But of course, we know it's because they're activism. And today, they were going to go to legally. That's our right that if something is wrong, you go to the to the legal branch and you bring a letter signed that you don't agree with what happened. So they didn't let them arrive. They were detained. So they have no rights to even go to the legal channels to to protest. We cannot go out here. We have a little activist envy of what is happening in the US right now with everybody is in the streets and is being very open about what happened because here there is no way you can go outside to to protest. But well, other than that, things are quite OK and during this time. And I just want before we start to to say how sorry I am for all the people who have lost love one in this and for the people who who are going through this very difficult illness. No, I personally have some friends from Corona who who had gone through this because one of them was working at the supermarket and they didn't give him any of the protection. So he actually had the virus. And of course, all the family was contaminated. Thank God they are all OK at the moment. But I have many friends who who them or their partners have been infected. I am a very amazed how quickly Auto Italianism has seen a little space to to conquer the world during this time and how they have confused a moment where everybody should be thinking and protecting themselves. With the let's say desire of governments to protect themselves instead of protect the people. And by that, I mean how even in the United States, which I follow the news has been amazing, but also in Europe and, of course, here in Cuba as well, how it has been a moment in which power has taken advantage to try to control people even more. I don't know how it's happening for you there, but here, at least, is amazing how well it's going. But the reason it's going well is because they know the name of everybody who lives in every place. They know exactly everything about everybody. So that's kind of a scary how they are justifying eliminating rights in exchange for health. So, yeah, and I don't know. I mean, I want to hear also your questions, but I think. At least for me, this coincide with a decision I had made to stop I have made a decision that after July, I was going to stop because I was in this kind of machine production machine where I was traveling a lot. I was doing a lot of little things. And sometimes I feel that as artists, artists, of course, who have no safe guard now, do you have a job or you have to go from gig to gig? No, it's a little bit harsh for the work itself because you are trying to survive instead of saying, OK, now I'm going to sit down and think one big. So I had decided to say, OK, after July, I'm going to stop. So this came a little earlier. But in a way, in my personal case, it has been very good because I stopped. I stopped and I had for the last two months, read, think and and decide to stop. You know, we don't need to overproduce. We don't need to talk all the time. I was telling a friend the other day that he was very nervous because he was working more now than ever and and also being paid less than ever, you know, because there is interesting with this kind of social a kind of shift happen. We need to make sure that we protect our rights, not only the most, you know, evident one, like a free speech, et cetera, but also that we protect the right to live of our work and also the right to do art that is meaningful because another thing that I have been seeing is an amazing thing for artwork. It is more popular than ever because, of course, people need entertainment, people need something that makes them go to another place in their in their mind, et cetera. But are we but I see at the same time people showing art that is it's not so harsh, but that is not done with the depth of art. I don't know how to say I understand in medicine and sometimes you can do an immediate reaction that is amazing and super complex. But I always defend in these times of Trump of oversimplification of feelings, oversimplification of subjects, the right for art to be done with as much layers of analysis and complexity as possible. You know, like it's not only how can I say is how can we keep art that is done differently in this time because definitely this is going to change and shape the form in which we communicate our feelings, our, our doubts, you know, our conclusions, whatever. But how can we do art that is immediate is popular because now we have, at least in my lifetime is the first time that I see the possibility for art to go mainstream for real, you know, because everybody wants to hear an opera, everybody is happy to hear somebody, you know, Yoyoma, you know, on his website, everybody wants to hear things that normally are prohibited to them, right? Because money or because it's high culture and they think they don't belong, but now this has been more accessible. But at the same time, I wonder how can we create art that is talking to everybody but it still has this kind of humanistic condition that can survive the moment, you know? This is something I'm thinking a lot right now because definitely it almost feels that there is an opportunity to change the form of art. I'm not saying that it's going to happen because unfortunately, I think this is a good opportunity to change many things, you know, to change many things in the arts and in society. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems that people forget what is painful very quickly, right? And all the lessons that you learn during that painful process are quickly substituted for something easier or something more satisfying, et cetera, no? So I'm not having a lot of hope, but I think it's a very good moment and I'm thinking a lot about that, what form can art have today? You know, how can we do art really that goes, that talks to more people than ever? Because even theater, I mean, of course, you have straight theater, you have older things, but theater, you go there because you already won that mostly, right? This conventional theater, you go to the cinema, you go to the theater or even to, you know, cultural center because you won that, you already are seeking an experience of growth, of questioning, of learning, but does people have time for that? Do people want that? Learning and growing is painful, you know? It's easier to just consume. So how can we create desire for the pain of learning? You know, how can we do an art that is seductive enough that people understand that growing is a beautiful process they can experience, you know? So I think this is a thing I've been thinking a lot and the other thing is something I already sketch, let's say, in the piece I did for the tape, Turbine, where I was trying to talk about what are the values by which our institutions are behaving, you know? What are the values we use in the society today to decide that somebody's more important than other, that someone needs more attention than other, deserves more attention than other or what somebody's saying is more transcendental than another, you know? And how we have substituted in a way all the... And I think that, let me say this, I'm sure people don't know this, but the piece I did was basically working with the neighbors of tape modern. And how... In London, yeah. In London, yes, sorry. And I have the question, how, what should the museum do for you to feel it belongs to you? How can you have something to say in an institution that is in your neighborhood but operates internationally and it has a huge impact internationally? So after many, many discussion and conversation with the neighbors, which by the way is an organization that still is running after the project finished and now they are independent from me and I mean, I'm still in the chats and everything but I don't want them to have the freedom of grow their own way. And we decided after many discussions that one of the things that is more, let's say, scary in a way, in our institution is how money is substituting, substitutes value and work to be done for the community. And in that sense, for example, buildings in the past were named after very important people, who did something quite important for the society. Now, if you have a lot of money, you can buy it. That doesn't mean that you have done anything good for the community, just so you can have a shortcut. So we decided to change the name of one of the two buildings of the Tate Modern for the name of one of the community organizers of the neighborhood, who have worked for more than 25 years, reduced our risk and recently with elders in the community. And she had literally saved hundreds of kids from the street and put them back in the job or school. And we thought this is the person who deserves to have a name, a building name after her. And by the way, it's not going to be in the news. She's not going to be in the news for the job she does. So it's interesting, what are we promoting today? The Kardashians, but then we don't have anybody know what she does or supporting what they do. So I think that was a little sketch of bringing back the discussion of what are the values of our institutions, how we also have been substituting ethics for, let's say, the vendors we're saying is final for things that are useful for you. And how all the values are very ethical value is almost seen as a ridiculousness in institutions. I say institution, but as an example of society in general. So I think this is what I'm thinking these days and this is what I think is important. I don't have hope, but I wish that all this time brings at least some sort of new reorganization of society and of what are we, how we're operating. And in the arts of the form, I definitely will need to start, yeah, being more less elitist, I think. I don't know. This is what I've been thinking so far, yeah. Yeah, that's a, that is significant and, yeah. But I don't have any hope, you know? You don't. No, because as soon as everything opens, people are going to go to the comfort zone again. It's quite hard to be in your own comfort zone, you know? And we are not educated for that. Our schools don't educate us to be, in searching, you know, they educate us to achieve, not to search, you know? So I think this is some of the things that I, and I've been looking a lot and for example, another things that I was thinking is how, for example, the arts, yesterday there was a friend who could send me a photo of one of these things that goes in the newspaper and say, what are the most, the 10 most important jobs and what are the 10 less important jobs that we can get rid of? Number one of that rid of is artists. That was number one. So people think artists, you know? So, and at the same time, I feel that institutions have to start having a different commitment with artists and with the staff. I've seen a lot of articles about big museums that have lay off most of their staff, especially the people who are more vulnerable, like people who work in education and, you know, security, et cetera. And I think this is highly problematic. I understand it's easy if we don't run an institution to say that, but at the same time, when you think how much money they pay for the insurance of one painting, that could be the salary of all their staff for a year. So I think, I'm not saying don't have the insurance. I'm saying you need to educate your donors. You need to educate the people or the funding, the people who fund your museum that they have to understand that the people who work there are the institution. The institution is not a building. It's not, you know, a room with stuff in it. Institution is the people who work in it. And I feel this is also very problematic also because some of my friends have called and say that, as I said before, they're working more than ever and pay less than ever. And I wonder what is going to happen with the artists who have no jobs, like no teaching jobs or what is going to happen. A lot of the events have been postponed for next year. I know that they have been some initiative to support artists like some foundations and some people, but is it now maybe the moment to think how we can structurally change the way artists are supported, how we can structurally change the way in which we think of, you know, not only money, but other supports like insurance or, you know, or other ways of support or housing, you know, because a lot of artists are living in a very day-to-day situation. Yeah, you go to a residency for six months and it's finished, where do you go? So can we start thinking? This is a call to the institutions, no? Can we start thinking? I'm sure they are doing this, but about how can we create longer-term support for people, you know? And not in a competitive way because always a solution is a grant or a prize. No, there should be other structures, no? Because there are only so many art schools that people can teach or so many, you know, our centers. So I don't know. I mean, these are the things I've been thinking. I've been also working in two new pieces at the other place. And one is for next year, the festival in Vienna. It was going to be now, but it was postponed. And it is based on Galileo, Brecht, like Galileo. And it's very interesting because many things that we were thinking felt almost like a static exercise, like a... And now they have more relevance because things are happening and we are seeing how we need to take, for example, in the case of Galileo, what decision are you going to make? Are you going to betray your belief for survival or are you going to carry on, no? And the other piece is one I'm doing for Lola Arias. It's going to be on Friday, this Friday. She has this project, My Documents, and it's based on the Madre Coraje, Mother Corage. Mother Corage. Also, I think I'm in my Brecht moment. And yeah, but it's related to a personal experience I had here, so... The first experience? What? Say again, it's related to the first experience? No, it's related to one experience I had recently with my mom passing. Tell us about it. Wow, but you have to see it on Friday. They're going to kill me. Yeah, no, no, no, just a little bit, yeah. Yeah, Lola Arias. Yeah, so it's kind of making a relationship because the idea of desire and desire-less and how maybe a way... I mean, it's a very, very free reading of it, but it's related to how not to desire, how to be in a state of desire-lessness. How to exercise not wanting stuff. And also this relationship also related to Cuba because in Cuba, it's very interesting that people who actually fight for the rights and are activists, they are many times accused by the government of doing this because they want material stuff because they are materialistic and they want money out of this and all of that. But they don't talk about the people who collaborate with the government because the government give them housing and cars. So I wanted to talk about all of this and it's interesting because I, in a way, I have not exhausted visual arts, but in a way, I almost feel that I have arrived to a little wall with visual arts, even performance, not only because the audience is reduced, but because it almost feels that we live in a moment where we need narratives, not only gestures, not only images, but narrative because it almost feels that the battle we're living right now in society is how we rewrite narratives, many of them, not only one, but many. And it seems that many governments are afraid of that and the reaction is to create the one single narrative for everybody, no? And I feel that theater has given me, and by the way, I didn't like theater when I was younger because the theater I knew was a very traditional theater, super traditional people screaming at two meters from me and I was like, but, but I have rediscovered theater and I feel it has, it's a very, very good tool for, you know, for experiencing to the skin of another person, no? And I think now this idea of creating narrative and recuperating history, I also feel that, you know, in general, history is super important at this time because we keep doing the same and the same and the same and the same, no? And theater is giving me that at the moment, no? Like this possibility of saying something that is not related to you, but you can relate to it. And, you know, I don't know, it's maybe simplistic what I'm saying for theater people, but it's, I'm very, very happy with this. I did my first experience by chance. I was invited to the Boca Biennale in Portugal by John Romero and it was a very smart proposition for the Biennale. It was, he was inviting artists from one genre to do for the first time something in another genre. So it was quite exciting. And I decided to do Endgame from Beckett, which I wanted to do since 98 when I read it for the first time. I got really passionate about it and I read it more than 10 times in a row. It's quite a thing, okay? I was super excited. I could see many things while reading it. And then finally I did it. And I really discover again, you know, the power of, you know, the power of people who want to go there and they're willing to go to many, many experiences. And also the power, as I said before, of history, the fact that you're working with the text that already exists and people already, you don't have to teach them. They already have a knowledge of the text somehow, the history of the narrative of it, about it. And then you add something. I really, I really enjoy it very much, you know? I really enjoy it in a way. And also having people for an hour, hour and a half, completely attentive is a privilege that we don't have in visual arts. Because when you do performance, people are passing by. If it's an opening for get-ups, nobody's listening. People are just like talking to each other. And so it's a very disruptive spectatorship, no? But in theater, the idea that people are willing, you know, to go through something is quite fascinating for me. And for me, I've been working a lot with the audience, you know, and I always said in my work, I tried the audience to become a citizen, an active citizen through a series of exercises. I think we lost Tanya for a moment. I just, I, the audience material, no, sorry, I'm here. Yeah. I'm sorry. The audience is my material, you know, as one of my other material, like history, like narrative. And I really can't work with them through one hour, because what happened with performance, I always say that's why I do short-term and long-term works. I do short-term because in the short-term, you have to shock people. You have to very quickly put them in a mood, in a conversation that might not be finished and might be broken. And you just probably can announce certain details, no? Or sketch certain things for them to do later. In the long-term projects, you really work with people, you have primary audience who are with you, who are part of the work, who work with you through the whole process. You have this secondary audience that is kind of like, that she's most of all the people who wants to know what's going on and come and go. But in theater, I really find this fantastic because it's almost in between. It's almost in between because people who see performance, my experience, people who see performance are willing to be shocked, are willing to be surprised, are willing to be shaken. And, but I don't know how much in depth you can go with their will to be with you, really, to be through the process. And in theater, people want the process. They're waiting for a change. They're waiting for, this is what I have experienced. They're waiting for, go through something because at the end, there is something else. They're going to learn also. And I don't know, I'm fascinating at the moment by that because there is a nice time to, yeah. Why Brecht, why, what's fascinating? Yeah, well, it's very interesting. In Cuba, we know many, for example, I didn't learn about Beckett in Cuba. I learned about Brecht, about, you know, all the Stanislavski, like all this, you know, tradition. Paulo Freire, for example, I learned later in the United States, ironically, but it was my fault because here they have done quite a bit of Paulo Freire, not too much because they don't like this kind of experiments or people have free ending of anything. But they had some conferences, they have shown some of that. But I almost feel that right now, we are living also a crisis of the left. And I'm very interested in going through issues that have to find our ideology, our way of thinking, no? And Brecht has nailed some of those. He has nailed some of those human conflicts and human, for example, when you say, no, I didn't do it and you know, you did it. Or you say, no, I regret what I say. Are you doing this because you want to write your work? Like are you negating yourself, not being a hero because you want to write all your knowledge and be a hero in a different way? Are you doing it because you are afraid? Are you doing it because like, how far will you go for your beliefs, no? And I had personally that situation where I had to decide an interrogation and when I was in prison, if I want to say, no, I don't believe this and I regret what I've done or I will say no, I will go to the last consequences. So I think this is also very pertinent for today because in the United States and Europe and Covina, there is a moment now where we need to be willing to have the answer to that question. We need to have the answer to the question, are you willing to go all the way and risk everything for what you think is important, for what you think is just, for what you think is ethical, for what you think is truth or are you going to keep saying, no, no, it's too much trouble or, you know, I want, you know, so to making, you know, so I think this is for me a very interesting, very, very interesting issue to bring today to think, you know, to think about that. And there is one phrase that is my favorite of the whole book where he say, well, I did it, Galileo says, I did it because I was afraid of pain. And then immediately they are serving him his meal, the chicken, whatever. And that's quite intense, you know? I also heard, I didn't see it, but I also heard growing up that there was a time where in Cuba, they put this display and when the guy who was a very famous experimental actor that we had here, when he was doing that scene, he always cried because in Cuba now has been always a dilemma. In order to eat, in order to survive, you have to shut up or you have to go against what you really believe or what is really important for you. So I think now this is not only a conundrum that we have in Cuba, it's not only a challenge that we have here, but it's a challenge we have in the whole world. You know, when you see somebody that is deporting a person that sleep from their house because they were, I don't know, gangs or they were threatened by, you know, the drug dealers or whatever or because the system didn't work because all the wealth is going to other countries and you know, what are you going to do? Are you going to turn again the face and keep walking or the time has arrived for you to say, hey, wait a minute, why are you doing that in question? You know, so I think this is, we have been in a way get used to a happy, a fake happy and a fake easy life. And this is now maybe something that we have to confront, you know, is easiness more important than justice? Is your own happiness more important than a general happiness? And maybe it's smaller for you, but it's shared by more people. So I think these are the things that Brecht really addresses in a very beautiful way because the human condition is always there. You know, like it's always about this moment of humanity where all these ideological big subjects become a very single of experience, you know, that you can identify with, you know? I don't know if that answers the question. No, no, it's a very, very profound and significant. But of course I'm a visual artist. I'm taking a lot of licenses for this adaptation but yeah, and becoming, and it's a translation, it's not really an adaptation, it's a translation because what I'm trying is to translate all of this knowledge that I have encountered in this text into something that is more contemporary or that is maybe touching us today in a more immediate way, you know? Because sometimes these texts are beautiful, amazing, but sometimes people think, oh, that was then when the Nazis, that one then when the Russians, the Soviets, no, no, it's still happening. So it is, that's why I say it's a kind of translation, no? So you are writing a text now? No, no, no, I am very scared of writing. I respect so much writers, but I am writing the scenes and the situations. Yeah, it is conceived, I think it's theater, I still say it's theater, but I conceive it as a situation, no? Like something people are going to experience. Yeah, it's just a little moment of connection. It's a moment, sorry. Yeah. So probably it has to change when it travels because I will have to find an event or dilemma that is specific to the place in which the play is happening in order for people to feel more connected and to feel it's happening to them and it's important to them, no? Because that's another thing that we do very much with art. We very, very commonly we decide that the work is great, the knowledge is great, but it was then and there, not for us, no? So I think it's one of the challenges also that I think we are on to now, which is how can we make people care for those ideas? And yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is what I'm doing at the moment. So since we are a bit of a theater audience, so it will it be inside the theater or because we are looking for forms? It is, yeah. How do you act, because you are now thinking about it in that time of confinement and your political complication? How are you approaching it? And it's important for us in the theater world who are a bit, perhaps as you say, stuck and some things don't work. So what are you gonna do? Specifically in these two pieces, the first piece is going to be in a lecture, the mother courage citation essay or interpretation or reading this is going to be in the mode of the conference, conference performance, and it's going to be to Zoom and hopefully with people looking at it. The second one is going to be live because it's next year by then, hopefully everybody. The birthday, the Galileo. The Vienna festival, the Vienna theater festival. But is it going to be outside? Is it going to be in a container? Is it going to be in the space? It's going to be in a contained space but not a theater. That's what I can tell you. Like we have a space that is, was used for something else before and we're going to read very minimal because I don't want to spend a lot of money in like re-decorating anything but actually working with the history of the place which is very common of course in theater. And it's going to be an experience people are going to have together in this place. So yeah, I cannot tell you more. No, no, no, that's fine. Just so to know. And I have to say, just to say because the first time I talk about theater in like in these kind of lectures, no? I just want to say thank you so much for the people who have given me the chance to explore this medium. John Romile, Christophe, you know, Marie, like all these people from all this festival, Christophe is from the Vienna Festival and he was before the Kunstart Festival. And yeah, and all these people, there's the Lola Arias of course who invited me and Milo Rao who also invited me the other day to talk. So I want to thank all these people who are giving me the opportunity to, I don't know. Yeah, no, they are fantastic artists. Put myself to what I don't belong but at least to. No, you really do. I mean, Milo Rao. I want to say hi and at least have a conversation that it has been so far very, very, very rich for me, you know, because yeah, yeah. Yeah, Milo Rao and Bosz Lola are on the Segal talk and we heard from them. And I think we need to have a dialogue. So it's quite stunning to hear that you say theater is becoming of an interest, your performances we often were censored or you gave this one minute of talk, everybody could say what they want and you got into trouble. I remember Claire Bishop, the great Claire Bishop once gave a talk and she showed the performance in Cuba that was censored and you said everybody should come and see the show that's not happening. And yeah, and what you did, you're eating mud, you know, you're eating earth and all that. So now you say, perhaps that's a bit limited. We had Peter Schumann from the Brad and Puppet Theater. I don't know if you know about them. Yeah, yeah, of course. Who said I was with Merce Cunningham. Yeah, he said, we were with Merce Cunningham and John Cage, I was in the studio, I was a dancer, but I felt it was a bit, what you said, a bit limited. They said, I wanted to go on the street. So he went to the Lower East Side. He said, we also performed in Spanish, we are translated Puerto Rican mothers ask us to do a play about their sons. So maybe that is also a moment, you know, where we really have to reconsider. So it's significant what you say because you represent the very best of contemporary art, visual art. So that's quite a... No, but I agree with you. I think there are two different conversations. One is about the medium and of course performance for me is like doing a poem. It's like doing a poem. It's short, it's impactful, impregnating people, certain verses you never forget, you know, it's... But theater, even if it's super experimental like Tim Eschel and like all these people like Milo or Lola, Lola, all these people doing amazing experimental work, still the precondition of the audience is what makes a difference for me because they're willing to do it. Sometimes performance, even if you know you're going to see a performance, your expectations are very clear, you know? It's like a little bomb that explodes and then you experience this wave of shakeness and then you go, no? But this is the thing. But the other thing... Yeah, it's just a short moment. It's what you say if I... Sorry, we have to redefine... No, this is the internet, don't worry, I'm still here. You have to redefine who our audience is. What is the language that that audience speaks? What of the language you want to speak with them? Because there is, at the beginning of the revolution there was this quite interesting discussion about does art has to go lower itself to the people or do people have to come up to art? This was a very, very specific statement that was for a decade being discussed and out of that many amazing work came. For example, the work of Ramiro Geffa, who is a choreographer who actually brought all the Afro-Cuban tradition, religion and so on to contemporary and classical ballet, you know? And yes, people wanted to go because they want to know about their venerated saints from Africa in this, but the language, it was a super sophisticated language of dance and ballet. So it's interesting how to see... I do think the world is now ready for having this discussion about what language are we using? There are many examples. It's not the first time this is going to be discussed. Red and Puppet Theater, of course, fantastic example. But also, sometimes when there is this thing about, oh, we want to talk for a broader audience, for people who are not initiating to the art, have no knowledge, have no training, et cetera. Many times there are, I don't want to say mistake, but let's say missteps, because either you simplify your message because you want it to be understandable. And so then it goes to this kind of generic art. What do you say in art? They say, well, this doesn't talk, it's so generic, what do they do? Or you go into this situation where you are pretending to talk the language of quote-to-quote the people, the streets, certain classes, certain groups, certain communities, but really you're doing this as almost a zoo for people who don't belong to this, almost as an enographic experience for people who are not part of this. So I think there is this tension that of course will probably never be solved completely, but it is interesting to now think about that. The internet is being used so much right now. So many people, I don't do many because here is super expensive internet, so I do very little zooms, but so many people are doing zooms from eight in the morning to eight at night, that it has created almost a culture, a culture of how can you participate without being physical? I wonder how we can use this for art, but also how can we, how can we, how can we understand and create this in art? So in this situation where we think about tension span, because it's very hard, now you and me are here, but if we have 20 people in this frame, it's going to be easy for me to just relax and or do something else or take coffee or whatever, no? So how can we work in formats that don't force the people or don't demand from the people the full attention? No, like this or another same time, I think now people are very tired of Zoom and I heard people are like over work, et cetera, but I think it's like when the computer laptop first started a personal computer, like people got tired very quickly as well because it's a new way of doing stuff, no? But I have a lot of hope in this kind of, I don't know, not touchable experience, but yeah, I don't know, I wonder if, I don't know, I think we do need to think about this. It's a very, very unique opportunity, very unique opportunity and it's not only, let's say, that doesn't mean that experience is like, like for example, sometimes theaters or festivals, music festivals, I remember in Austria as well, once I went to this festival in Salzburg that was so open and everybody was there. But at the same time, yeah, it's open, open to whom? No? And yeah, I don't know, but I don't know, this is what I'm thinking and also how can we, make sure that people understand that art is a tool for the life. It's not only entertainment, it's not only what you do when you have a spare time, but art has a knowledge in it that could help you to live better, to could help you, that's why I do art because I need myself to solve certain things and I do as well. Tell us why you do art, that is important, tell us. Because I'm done, first, because I do art because there are many things that I don't understand and I have used all my life art as the resource to understand what happens out there. Not only, it's less a communication tool for me although I'm very communicative in my work, and I'm interested for people to understand, et cetera. But for me personally, it's less a communicative tool than it is an analytical tool and a resource to understand things. A way for me to divide the reality into different chaotic moments or systems and to break the fake rigidity of life. This is this, this is this, this is this because it was said one day. And to understand how certain current goes from one place to another even when they are invisible. And art helped me all this year to see that and to understand. And the second, that's how I use art The why I use art and when I use the art is when I see injustice. It has been the only tool I have. I mean, I'm an activist. I have other resources as an activist. But the only way I have been able to express my anger, my fear, my stubbornness, my confidence, my desires, my hope is when I see justice happening, that then art for me is always the answer. It has been the way which I put all of this, where I put all of this. And it's interesting because so many times when injustice is made, the people who are executing the injustice knows they are doing something unfair and bad and wrong and unjust. And this fascinates me why the person knows this. I mean, not everybody, but many people do. And they are in certain place on the brain. There is some little light that say this is not right. And why you keep doing it. So I think when I see something like that and many times there are many problems in the world who are of course very complex, hard, you know, but at the same time, some of them are not right. But at the same time, some of them are very easy to solve. Not easy in the pedestrian way of using the word, you know, like, oh, it's easy. No, no, no. Easy in the sense like their solution already out there, but people know that if they do them, they will not benefit. So that's what makes me really angry. You know, you say, why this, why you don't, why don't you legalize all the immigrants in the United States? This is not going to be a problem from the country. There is, you know, all this narrative completely fake, you know, like it's going to be good. This is, you know, and yeah, I mean, this is to put one example. And it's interesting because for example, I'm a woman. I'm a feminist. I've been fighting for the rights of women in this country and Cuba also. And so when my work, the other day I had an interview or written interview and they say, why don't you work about this subject? And I say, because I have this problem solved. I solved my position about being a woman and an artist and an activist in this place has been, I solved it through my work a while ago. And now I don't need to do art about this anymore because I, I solved it for myself. It's a little selfish, but that's, you know, I do art for me. And then in the process, other people are invited and some people feel related, some feel not related. Some people feel push, some people feel, you know, but I think art should be done for you. And that's not, let me explain this. I'm not saying this as an egoistic, a lotistical statement. I said that because you have to search inside you, what really makes you at ease with the world. And this is what gives you the force to do work that other people can relate to because they also feel like this. And also you do, you do it for you because I feel that again, my work is super social is, I'm very interested in everybody understanding what I'm saying, feeling it, et cetera. But if you do work about something that really troubles you, you know, socially, et cetera, you're going to touch, or you're going to search the way in which not this problem materialized in the world, but the way in which it is generated. No, and this for me is very important for doing art. I'm not interested in showing what already is there that you can see in CNN, you know, I'm interested in trying to see, and that's what I think art does, trying to go to the essence of what was the moment of conception or birth of this trouble. No, the dissituation that is not being resolved. I don't know, it's a little abstract, but this is not at all what I mean. And yeah, and of course I think of the people and many, many times I changed some decisions in the form of the work because I know that I have to change the channel of communication, but already that work of searching why this is happening and so on has happened. And many times I don't resolve the project, which I love and people say, oh, you're doing social experiments. Okay, what is the problem? Governments to social experiment. Why can artists don't do it? And also people who are enter art centers and enter theater, they already know they're going to have an experiment, whatever it is, but it is true that we still have and therefore sometime I don't finish the work. I just present a dilemma and it is unfolding and resolved by the audience itself. But also we have this problem in the arts lately because there's extra super institutionalization of the arts where the audience has become in no zone, you know, like you don't go there, you don't offend them, you don't touch subjects that are sensitive, you protect them so much that art has become an extremely safe place. I cannot imagine a piece like Please Love Austria from Kristoff, a slinging chef. I don't know how to pronounce it perfectly, a slinging chef. I hardly imagine that piece being done today, very hard because institutions will not allow it because you have to respect this, you have to respect that. And it's not about offending people. I don't like art that is for the sake of a scandal or a shock. I don't, this is boring. But in order to go deep into the human soul, you have to touch things that are harsh, that are difficult, that maybe are not resolved, not even for you as an artist. So then go to this kind of, for everybody's happy, it's not happy, but you know what I mean, like this kind of over-protection of audiences, and for example in museums, it happens a lot, like people, like sometimes you're going to do an installation. In a museum, you spend more time talking to the technical staff that work in security than to the curators because you have to make sure that there are two X's, you have to make sure people don't trip, you have to make sure. For example, when I did the piece at MoMA in 2017-18, I think, they bought one of my projects, I did in Cuba in the year 2017, and it's a tunnel. You enter a very long, a 50 meter, I think it's 150 feet, I think, a very, very, very long tunnel that smells of something, you know, nobody is unless you're from the Caribbean or Sugar Island because it's rotten sugarcane. And there is no light at all, the floor is completely uneven, so people who walk, they have no stable or anything. It's quite scary, it's dark, you don't see anything, the smell, like it's super sensorial. And then you walk, you see a little light, and you say, okay, let me go to the light, and then you see the image of Fidel Castro and this kind of news and so on. And when you turn, because the light that comes from the entrance and because your eyes get used to darkness, then you realize that you have been next to four naked men who have been, let's say, first in the first moment, you think, oh, they are guarding this video, this TV, then later you say, well, they look like a broken mechanism because they're doing the same gesture over and over, each of them is different gesture. And then you realize they're slaves, and that you are in the midst of this. And this was amazed, I was amazed, the creator was Stuart Comer, I was amazed that they allowed to do certain things that in museums in the U.S. and in Europe, you cannot do like darkness or anything. I was amazed, I mean, we had to put, we had to train everybody as a firefighter and it was quite interesting, that's another anecdote, but I was amazed, but it took a long time. And we talk more with these people, I say, I mean, the creator was all the way, because he's amazing, but we, and this is happening not only in visual arts, it's happening also in theater. Watch out, don't touch this subject, don't touch that other subject, people are sensitive, and you know, and this, I'm very sad for this, no? I don't like a scanner for the sake of it, as I said before, but you know, I wonder if we should be back in 1917, 1910, 1920s, where people were, you know, throwing tomatoes at the people, you know, why not? Why not having a different channel of communication with people, no? Why we have to please the audience? Why artists have to become slaves of audiences and slaves of the social moment they have lived in? And that's something I wonder. I mean, this is the thing I'm thinking. So what are you thinking? This is the thing I'm thinking these days, no? Yeah. So we'll see. No, these are, these are such serious and important questions is to be slave of the moment, the slave of the audience. That's what happened when you are alone in your house for three months. Yeah. You start thinking about stuff all the time, right? Yeah. I haven't found the solution yet, but yeah. Your point to say that the institution itself also represents the society. So let's say you a theater maker, you're radical, but you do whatever the theater directors of that theater tell you, you follow the rules, the union, you don't go out. So how can that be? How can that be that, yeah, it's like the main actor gets paid more and has more lines. It's not democratically, it's not distributed, but when it polished us at the folks, when he says, when we talk about this, the way we produce has to be different. Yeah. If we write a play about this, but we do the different. Thomas Opa Osterender from Berlin, Fespiele said, you know, we do something, an exhibition about climate change, but we have the air conditioning running. We said, we don't want to do it. Let's see, can we do that? But it's insane. But it could be done, but it's insane to use natural light. No, and this is a good point. I mean, I'm not an expert in theater as an institution because I'm very recently experimenting there and being invited. I'm a guest. I'm not an expert or anything, but in general our institutions, the thing is like it has become, I think after Twitter, especially after the culture of Twitter, it has become so easy to announce what you believe, but not to do it because you almost feel that saying it has substituted the hard work to do it. Because it's enough. You put, I believe in everybody's equal. Fantastic. This person is awesome. Yeah, but what have you done? It's not activism. Yeah. This is not changing. No, and it's another way of faking it. I'm not saying it's fake. I'm saying it's another way of faking it because only you can demonstrate what you think by your action. This is my belief, you know? I mean, of course, I have to explain it, say it, et cetera. But I think these that start happening to people have been incorporating institutions where they just say, oh, we are against racism, but that's not enough. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The other day there was somebody circulating this, this question about, yeah, yeah, they want so much to be against racism, why they don't retire this very, very old curators in certain institutions who are white. And they have been there for 40 years or 50 years. And maybe it's time to put a new person as black, for example, African American. So I think these are interesting. This is why I think now, again, I don't think it's going to happen, but I am enjoying the fact that we are leaving a social turbulence, you know, in which this thing that's supposed to never happen, that we're only aspiration and utopia and very ridiculized by people this is the only thing that happens. Now, actually we are in a moment that is so has been shaken so much that we can actually go into these cracks and maybe do something. But for example, this is why I like so much when I work with Tate mother in London, because when we propose this change of the name of the building, first of all, it was going to be only for one year because they do this commission every year. So they change artists. And they actually left it permanently. We said a lot. Says a lot about the institution. I'm very proud of them. I mean, of course, I didn't solution have problem, but I'm very, very proud of them. And also, we were able to put Natalie Bell as the name of the person. As part of the advisory council. So we were able to put someone from the neighborhood. Into the advisory council. Council. Where she has a different perspective of other people who are saying what the solution should be done next year on five years. What the community needs. So I think that I was very proud of Tate because they were able to put someone from the neighborhood. They not only enunciate a principle and ethical principle, but they enacted it. And I think that's what is lacking in a lot of institutions. You know, a lot of institutions is always hard. It's always a sacrifice to. To put into action your beliefs is always a sacrifice. So I think that I was very proud of Tate because they, they walk, they walk, they say, no, they, they're not going to take your money back. They're not going to take your money back. And your beliefs is always a sacrifice. But why for example, a big museum don't say, okay, the doctor say, okay, my pay is a million dollar a year. I'll take half of that. And with that money, I pay, I don't know. Three months of the staff or whatever, you know what I mean? So why people are not willing. I don't know. But I think. Fortunately, yeah, I'm not so sure, but yeah Hopefully why see all the protest in the US? I think that's already something. What do you think about the protests in the US? No, I think people are fed up. I mean, especially I I The first time I cried in my life like I like a teenager again was the day in the election of Trump I know now is more popular to say this but that day I was in a train going to the residency I was in and I cried like somebody who have lost The protection shield because I'm from Cuba. I fight here, but I always know that when I go there I can To the US. I have friends. I have spaces where I can have protection I can say what I want, you know, and And I can rest and not the vacation but rest in the sense of intellectually can You know Nourish myself with all the knowledge of all the people in the world who have done stuff and for me This has been a very important learning course in my life and it's you know, being almost my second country in a way But it's more like saving space not my safe space and that day I cried because I say I have no place to Look like to go to now because this is going to be like Authoritarian and it's going to be a dictatorship and it's going to be you know I say this that same day because people who have lived under those circumstances They know I remember a friend of mine Cuban who moved to Venezuela He was you know, he was censored here in Cuba in the arts and he decided to go to Venezuela It's very similar, etc. Before showers the day showers was Elected or put into power He is start preparing his bags to leave And everybody said you crazy you're excited. I didn't say no. I already leave this and I know what is coming and And this is an interesting thing I put on my face the fact that this is what is going to happen He's going to go against the press. He's going to discover this Take the Respect we have for for for the law Yeah, I put like a little like 10 points or something because I know those the answer of everybody Who was American at this at this was this is not cool. Oh, this is not a dictatorship We have everything already in place. So this doesn't happen We have institution and my answer is like we also had institutions in Cuba Some institution had hundred years old and the word dismantle. So institution only work As long as they do the duty If you have somebody an institution that is willing to change what they think what they think is right for what is good for them that's the beginning of the dismembering of institutions, you know what I mean and and of course you're having got that far, but you're getting pretty close and and Thank God he The Trump is has a very very bad aesthetic out aesthetic taste Because if he had a good aesthetic taste, you will be in bigger trouble but he saw Not a static Easier to reject him but I think it's very important that people Say it's enough, you know, like I don't I don't I'm a I'm a peaceful person. I'm a pacifist I don't agree with with I know it's a resource, but I don't agree or profess violence of any kind But I think it's enough like how many people have to die already, you know, like how many and and also Yeah, I the way I see it from here, which is quite different because I cannot follow the day today I only have pieces and bits of what is happening the most highlights Is that people are asking for structural changes, they're not asking for a singular Justice for a singular person. They're asking for a structural change already And I understand the anger believe me like I Wish more people protest about all the things as well Like They're giving an example, but I wish there were more people protesting about it But it's impressive that the transversality of this At least what I see on the news. No, there's some New York Times and stuff. It's amazing the transversality of the process. It's quite impressive I don't know. What do you you are there? Have you seen what do you think of them? I Do you think you are right? I do think It is a moment if there ever was one Of kind of a perfect storm of COVID crisis 40 million people unemployed a disastrous health care system that's failed One percent perhaps might have immunity to have herd immunity 70% If the vaccine doesn't come fast that American Hannah Arendt who you created as that Great Institute. She said, you know, it's a camera. It's a father Morgana And she actually did say it started to default the American dream and the invasion of the pink Bay in Cuba She said this was the beginning the end and she at the time put that up and said it's going to lead to an authoritarian one And we have to fight for freedoms but right now Because it really now know people say we could die You know as you said that that's Galileo moment What do I do? Do I sing to the truth and what people say about science or are you willing to die for your belief? And are you able to have the on wonder of the world here? Can you do both and in art and And I think yeah, it is it is a moment and the question is how will we What will we do with the knowledge we have and And where where where will it lead so And I think I think people are very knowledgeable right now and they understand that Every disaster we had in the world. The only profit has gone to The 1% basically Who buys more Who like basically Is interested in of course it was an accident. Whatever. I don't know. I don't want to debate though James. I don't know is many theories, but Whatever it was we are living in the third world war The third world war is not people with guns Is people with resources is understanding these people I want to be eliminated, you know, like And and why because all the war war the world wars Have been a redistribution of wealth all of them And this is again another massive redistribution of wealth. That's why I think it's a world war the third one People are dying But The same way in the war, but it's not with guns This time is Is a redistribution of wealth That's what we're leaving and that's I'm maybe why I'm a speculating maybe why people are even more fed up Because they know that all this life has been spared For some I mean how many yet to be happy I mean how many how many Generations you need to provide for in order to be happy enough, you know, like it's like I don't know I have I don't know I have I mean I have nothing against people, you know developing economically Satisfied but there is a moment where it's too much like it is Disgustingly too much, you know what I mean and and this is This is I think also what we're looking at, you know People saying how many life you need to give I Don't know At least here in Cuba has been also Waking up of the activism because For the everybody sit at home Well, let me say not everybody's at home. There has been for the first time very clear People who are at home and people who are outside. So there is a different of class people who are at home Are people who are have more resources and they can have I mean, I don't have it But I know a lot of people have this kind of app where you can buy food from an app and they bring it to your house But it's in dollars. So not everybody has 10 or 20 or 45 dollars to have some vegetables coming to your house So it is very clear a partition of class people who have not that much money They have to do eight to 14 hours of line Waiting to see if they get a little piece of chicken Incredible, you know, so this is extremely intense right now. There is no food. No, there is no egg There is no rice. There is no meal. I Don't also cafe coffee is I don't see it anywhere So basically the government and this is an interesting Situation that now people have internet. Yeah, you can have trouble is very expensive You know One gigabyte is ten dollars and we are having no no But we are having ten euros because the cook is equivalent to you or not two dollars And we are having this big campaign against the monopoly Because it's funny Cuba is a socialist country, but all of the things are monopolies Monopolies All of them the Impressions of the telephone company is private Monopoly of the government And there is no competition nothing so they put the price whatever they want, you know, so we cannot protest I mean, we are protesting but they they don't care So basically is super expensive and For example, we have detected many people not only the activists normal people who are in the street I don't want to be political Have protest because the one gigabyte go faster than it should be So you lose a gigabyte on for example, I don't know a few hours Even if you don't see videos, you don't see nothing. You don't see nothing, you know, you just maybe on Facebook sending some Things on what's up and so on so basically This is one interesting moment where people who never wanted to be political because they have been Miseducated into the government decides for you what is or what is not political and what is what you should care or not about Now are changing that are rebelling and I are putting Stuff on Facebook has become the public square is impressive, you know People are putting videos are putting The the announcing stuff is on what is the reaction of the government? They enact a law they did in 2018 when they were worried about internet and the people Which is the decree 370 370 where The government put a fine of 3000 pesos which is a racial amount of money for people here If you put something on Facebook, they don't like the government doesn't like and If it's something that they find offensive, whatever they put you in prison for a post on Facebook This is insane so a lot of a lot of Groups of activists have come together to fight against these we have done many many actions already and the government now Is kind of in the corner and trying to justify no we don't mean this but yeah You we have all the photos of all the people and the reason and now something that is interesting is that For the first time in a long time, okay The police and the security of the state has been extremely violent with activists This is separate, but now the government has made the people the enemy which is quite bizarre Why this is the reason why there is nothing in the store is because there are three or two people who bought everything and they have it in their house come on like how Really really the whole country has no food because there are four people who bought 60 Things of rice. I mean come on Yeah, so it is kind of interesting that the mentality that they're creating is Not anymore the external enemy although still and Trump is not helping because he's doing all this stuff Given the ammunition no and so on but But now we have any Internal enemy that is ourselves all of us. Yeah, we are all enemies Yeah, as Brecht said, yeah as Brecht once said the government will dissolve the people and and elect new people, you know If they're so unhappy with them and They're starting to be a little violence and I'm very worried about that because they start Why because people for example before they were taking somebody so he said this to them He's against the government like it's not my problem, right? But now he's for anything because you don't have the mask and I agree with the law that you show up the mask Okay, fine, it's better put it You don't need to beat somebody because doesn't have the mask or bring it to the station So to sleep one night there because I ain't and now they are there is this Disagreed that the police Hit him so bad that he lost a night. This is new in Cuba. This is we never heard of this craziness And I'm worried about that to be honest. I'm very worried about that because that shows that that shows that They're losing power and they don't understand how to move to a new Political situation, you know or proposal. Yeah, and I'm very nervous about that Yeah, it's the big question also here for the as will that be a summer of violent a violent protests Uprising skillings on both sides and what will happen? Can it be controlled and how much even if it's over corona? What will the post stress syndrome be? What will how will people are always crazy remember people always? Yeah, we are even now But what will happen afterwards? So we we don't know and we need, you know solutions And I think as you said art can make can make a conclusion that we are coming closer to the end And really what you said is so profound so significant Because my internet is over. No, it's fantastic. No, no, no that the institution I think heina muller said about theater this theater is the state We have to fight against this theater if you want to make real theater you said if you want to use brecht You don't criticize him. That's treason. That's what You know, we had John yeah, yeah, so Jean-Luc Nancy also the philosopher who was on our program He said what is the value? Of the value of life right now of the other so yeah, we have values But how much is it worth to a society and who decides? What's the value of the Literally, I think one of the biggest dilemma we have today is the one in Dalileo in Brodinger is like are you willing to defend an idea? or your idea of truth Or are you willing to live and think of yourself and survive and live better than yourself? Yeah, you know, and this is something that I that we can see as a personal decision But this goes into institution and this goes into society and this This is not just somebody to say I'm going to look and eat my chicken. No, yeah, that's true It's also is a conduct a behavior that people have in situations Yeah, and I remember that one scene I think in Galileo when he is in the palace and he's about to Have to make up his mind be arrested or not and he sees the chandelier moving. It's a pendulum, you know So the rotation of the earth so he's right. He knows he sees it and that what Brecht said I'll my My children of the technological age that view of Galileo to see Something a bigger law a structure and to commit to it to do better And that is what is and now we have as we always say here the children of the digital age As you said, it's a big chance even grandparents who never had a phone who never knew what a Video is how do you download or watch something on them? You know, they do and something is is changing As a closing question. Yeah In the other thing there is a history of activism now that is quite clear It's not so old, but it's old enough that we know that things work So tell us maybe about as a fancy what works. What should artists be doing? What in for us in corona time What should we be thinking about? I? Would not dare to tell people what to do What do you think? No, well, but what do you think what works on works? What do you think is meaningful to do right now for inconfinement, but also what works in activism? I What has worked for me? Let's say he's having this as a time to re-evaluate and reassess He's a forced vacation in a way Of course, we still interacting with the world, but it's the force Okay, one advice I see or something I have also taken is not too confused Anxiety the anxiety of not having a job of not being present, you know artist thing if they disappear for six months Somebody remembers them, you know, like forget anxiety. Don't confuse the anxiety with The mission that you have as an artist You know because sometimes we take decision because we are anxious we oh my god I have to do all of these because if I don't do this now I nobody will notice and not confuse that with the mission Which is what you should be doing and I think taking this time Forget so many zoom so many calls so many Sometime you need to think within yourself, you know some there are times to give and there are times to absorb You know and to please have a balance between those two because they have has that's why I think I wanted to stop at some point and I mean I was forced not to do it but Because sometimes you giving giving giving giving and then at some point you don't have anything left to give And you're not giving nothing of value of quality and the fact The act of giving is not enough. You have to give something that is useful for others No to make worth it the giving And this is something that we need to balance no And also for some artists not in the theater because I don't know this but in the visual arts sometimes some artists want to be Almost like The example of capitalism. They want to be their artists the one that no no no no there's space for everybody Give space for everybody so you can have a space for yourself, you know Don't try to accumulate so much attention wealth or possibilities then you don't give to others I don't know that's what I mean. No that is a super super important and great and and you really and thank you for Talking to I think and I hope we didn't offset your balance because now you're also with us, you know But but thank you. This is extremely meaningful And important to us to hear and especially from someone like you who has taken action On you it's produced work. He's the time for action. That's for sure Yeah, it's something meaningful to hear it from you and because it's not just twitter I also I have the project here in cuba the incident of art and activism hanarend and the motto that I have for the project is desire Think act We have to have those three desire Desire think act Act because sometimes I thinking of kuba sometimes people act without thinking too much because it's this kind of fashion of Sometimes you just desire and stay at home and don't do anything And sometimes you think too much that you don't do anything and forget what you desire, you know So, yeah, that's been my My magic triangle Yeah, yeah, yeah Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much and I want to read, you know Also, what you have I think on your website you you quote vatslav harville who is Who's the president but also a playwright from ours. Yes. Yes your playwright if the world Is to change for the better It must be human consciousness The very humanness of the modern Mankind, you know, so I agree No, he was we must to change and we must do it. So really thank you. It's something you do It's inspiring and we presented for all of us and as you say not everybody has to be able to be in the tate or modern or whatever Dude at your home your neighborhood in your family It's the same I always tell my student when i'm teaching performance I understand that young people want to achieve, you know, a certain status and of course, there's nothing wrong with that but I always tell them remember That absolutely all the art movement you are studying and all the artists you have seen as performers Is started by being important to their peers to their friends to the neighbors To their generation and not to the institution Yeah And this is something that we need to to balance. Yeah, that's good to think about never thought about it this way Yes, look at this. It's a start. That's a start. You're right. Fantastic. They start with your friends Yeah, that's that's that's such a great and sometimes you end up if you don't pay attention, you know Yeah, so really really thank you tomorrow. We have a whole data from rwanda A country that also too traumatic Changers and what is she doing? How is she reacting and then? Saman Amini Iranian refugee who arrived in the Netherlands and create when somehow ended up in acting school and Work, let's see what he has to say again. Tanya. This has been Very significant and important to us. Thank you. Thank you for sharing power listeners to take time We went a little bit over time, but this wasn't very important To listen Tanya, and I want you all to and I have to say that I have a lot of hope with the Cuban activists because in this Coronavirus moment we have been one for the first time ever. We have been working so strong together. So this is good That is good. Yeah, so thank you so much and maybe we'll check if you can really thank you for making time Thanks for our audience to listen It's also important that Tanya knows people do care what happens in Cuba and about the work and her life's mission And her art that there is a receptive audience as she said because we need theater performance But we also need the audience and the audience has to follow up what she said the desire And then but you also have an action and this is ultimately what it is all about. Thank you Thanks for howl around for hosting us VJ and Tasia and Travis and then of course my team San Young and thank you so much and please to take Come in to again, and I hope Tanya, you will also Be safe Same for you guys You know and you're in your detentions. I know it's dangerous. What you do. It's easy for us to talk It's something very very different what you do where things have consequences. So All the best and and let us know what you're doing and everybody should check in. It's on saturday Lula Arias has talked with you. It's on saturday Saturday, yeah And how can people get onto it they go to They can go to the website My documents My documents if you put in google Lula Arias my documents and they have team et al and Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, so, okay. Thank you so much and thank you everybody. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye