 All right, good morning everybody. Welcome to this session that we're having this morning on financial inclusion. My name is Matt Murray. I'm the editor and chief of the Wall Street Journal. It's a real honor to be here today to talk about this very important topic with you. We should have a lively informative discussion on an issue that I know is of great urgency to all of our panels here and our attendees in the audience. As a reminder, when we talk about financial inclusion, we're talking about access to and the use of quality, affordable financial products and services that lead to financial well-being around the world. This of course is a major issue for many countries and many people around the world. There are some tensilizing data points, as we'll discuss this morning, that suggest inclusion has grown. There was a World Bank study last summer that revealed that 76 percent of adults now have a bank or mobile money account, which is up from 51 percent a decade ago. Those are very encouraging numbers, as we'll discuss. However, we should emphasize it still means that one in four adults are unbanked and that many of those remain closer to the edge in assets and with limited ability to quickly access funds in the event of an unexpected cost or challenge. Also meeting here, of course, at a time of inflation and volatility right now and the prices for basics such as food, energy and housing. Now to discuss the issues, we have a very distinguished panel here on stage. Her Majesty Queen Maxima, Queen of the Netherlands and the United Nations Secretary General Special Advocate for Inclusive Finance. You've been there since 2009 doing that role, so you have a long-time commitment or an advocate for this issue at a long time. Dinesh Kumar Khara is the Executive Chairman of the State Bank of India. Alfred Kelly Jr. is the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of VISA. And Shivani Saroya is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of TALA. TALA is a global Android app that delivers financial services around the world in markets that need access. Kenya, the Philippines, Mexico and India particularly. And you've granted nearly four billion in access to funds around the world. Is that right? So welcome. It's good to have all of you here for what I hope is going to be a very lively discussion. Let me start with you, Your Highness. Just give us a sense right now at this moment in the world of where we stand on the issue of financial inclusion, positive, negative. How do you see the situation after your long-time involvement? Well, first of all, thank you very much for having us here. And I think that this issue of financial inclusion has been one of the headpieces and dowels and I think it should actually continue to have the attention it needs. Because yes, we are 76% and I have to say I'm extremely proud because when I started this work, we're actually under 40% and we invested in data collection. We invested in trying to get regulators sort of in and also the private sector in. And that has actually resulted in an incredible increase on financial inclusion. Certainly in the access side. So 76%. And what I think is actually very important for the last three years is that it was actually white that growth was widespread to many countries. Whilst the survey before was actually mainly China and India doing the big growth. And now we're seeing a humongous amount of countries actually growing. So very good. Yes, of course, we have 1.4 billion people that still do not have an account. And those are mostly rural. Those are mostly women. There's a big gender gap still, even though they're actually now at the last time. And also the poorest. So we really need to focus on these three groups. We need to do intentional sort of focus on the women. We need to do intentional getting to people in the rural areas and the poorest. And for that something that is extremely important given that most of this growth has actually been through the digitization, I would say. Like, you know, you have actually sort of a good case from it. We need to have what we call the digital public goods. It's not true that everybody has a mobile phone and the mobile phone is actually of high quality and has a good connection. And certainly in the rural areas, we need to have connectivity of high quality. We need to have IDs, which are also digital. Because without an ID, you cannot open a bank account. You need to have interoperability. You have a fantastic payment system. In India, I actually have interoperability in the payment system. There's actually allowed much more use cases, you know, much, you know, cheaper services. So that's extremely important. We need to also have a cyber security measures because that's what actually give you trust as well as, for example, digital financial literacy. So these, the couple of things we need to actually start sort of, you know, having as a base of, you know, infrastructure and public goods for this to really rise in a inclusive, affordable and really competitive way. Your Majesty, when you talk about the great progress that you've made for these last, this last 25 percent, you talk about all these access issues, is this a tougher 25 percent because of the issues you just raised? Does it take extra effort? I don't mean to minimize what you've got. The last mile is always tougher, right? I mean, and then because you get into discussions, you go to countries and said, you know, the last mile connectivity, for example, is very, you know, difficult, you know. So most of the private sector companies, they do not want to sort of mobile companies, you know, go to a very low dense populated area and give it the same type of, you know, service that you do it in the urban areas. It's difficult. But that we have to really think, you know, private and public about, you know, how do we share antennas? How do we share sort of, you know, maybe broadband, you know, citizen Bangladesh is actually trying to do it with broadband. So they're actually very good examples of doing that. But we have to really work together much more between the private and the public sector. And it will, I think it will be harder and very undisputed areas. And I think the working together is going to become much more relevant and partnerships. Okay. Dinesh, that is a good segue to turn to India. And I want to ask, you've made great progress in India, partly because of mobile phones. So I wanted to get your sense of first how things are and particularly how did the pandemic and the kind of digitization of leapfrogging that happened in the pandemic, how has that changed the situation in India? Thank you very much for having me on this, in this particular program. Well, of course, the country has a population of 1.3 billion. And we have mobile phone users, maybe the mobile phone connections, it is as high as about 1.2 billion. That is one of the major aspects. The second is, even when it comes to internet users, we have got about 800 million plus users who are using the internet. So these are some of the basic rails which really helped us in terms of ensuring that during the pandemic period when there was hardly any access to the cash, how to make the cash available to a very large segment of population. And actually, with the help of these connections, we opened about 480 million accounts. It was way back in the year 2015. And during the pandemic when it all started, we ensured that in no time the money should be made available to all these account holders. If we look at the total population of 1.3 billion, 480 million such account holders virtually means that there's at least one account in every household. So that is something which has helped us in ensuring that these people get the money. That is one part. Second is during pandemic, we did another excellent job which was essentially ensuring that everybody get the food grains. We used to have a lot of stock of the food grains. And because we had the UIDI, which is the unique identification number, we ensured that as against distributing much of cash, we should make available the food grains. And that has helped us in ensuring that not excess money supply should be there. And that is one of the reasons why when it comes to inflation scenario across the globe, advanced economies have seen much higher inflation. Whereas countries like us, we have seen much lower inflation. So that is the other aspect which has really helped us. So what has happened is that one, of course, is these accounts have got opened. Second, we have got the payment rates which are very, very robust. If at all I may give you some kind of a complexion in terms of the number of transactions which are happening with the help of these UPI, it is actually phenomenal. And within a month, we'll be handling about a couple of billion transactions in no time. So it's a very robust, that is one part of it. In nanoseconds, the money gets transferred to the beneficiaries account. And when it comes to usage, we have not confined it only for the money transfer. We are actually ensuring that through these accounts, people should be in a position to buy their insurance, their life insurance, their personal accident insurance. So all this is something which has created a lot of buying for these accounts. And we are not only relying only on the mobile phones, et cetera, we have created banking correspondents to ensure that the last mile connectivity which was rightly mentioned by Her Majesty is a very major challenge. I'll just give you one example. We as a bank, we have got more than 23,000 branches in the country. We have got 67,000 banking correspondents. We have got mobile micro-ATMs, which are being used for dispensing cash. Though we are having QR codes, we are trying to digitize the payment system to a large extent, but still as it happens in any emerging market economy, there is still the relevance of cash. So I think we have made the products or the channel very, very vibrant by offering multiple products. And we are not confining ourselves there itself. We are also evaluating the index. We have actually the Reserve Bank of India, the Central Bank has created a index, financial inclusion index, which actually measures the access, uses and the quality. And when it comes to quality for a country like us, we had lot to invest in terms of the financial literacy. And we are ensuring that we disseminate that information. And particularly when we are transferring such a large sum of money through the digital medium, the cyber security becomes very important. And there what we have experience is lack of financial literacy, lack of digital literacy has led to situation where people share their credentials. So we are leveraging that kind of education initiative also so that people should be able to be aware how should they use the digital channel. So these are some of the initiatives which we have taken and it has led to a situation I can perhaps share with you some number. Almost about 100 billion odd of leakages which used to happen between the subsidies which has originated and which finally got received at the manufacturing and that could be avoided. By virtue of this kind of a transfer which we could achieve. The cyber issue sounds very serious though. The more people who have access, the more widespread the use of digital financial services becomes the more they're targeted by people for theft. And it sounds like that's a significant challenge sometimes to make sure people we are adequately protecting themselves and not sharing their information. Yeah, we keep on reaching out to them and the way forward is only repeating the message and amplifying the message multiple times. And that is something which we keep on doing and that's how we are trying to get over this particular challenge. So Rani, India is one of the places where you are but you're at other places so step back a little bit. What have you seen during the last three years in terms of the growth and incorporation? And if you could also talk a little bit about how the economic volatility in ups and downs are affecting use of services right now. Sure. And thank you again for having me as part of the panel. I think maybe I'll start also by saying when I think about what financial access truly means, I think of it as we're essentially creating an entryway into this financial ecosystem. And so at TALA our mission is around enabling financial agency for the global underserved. And so when we think about agency, yes it's about access but ultimately it's about having choice and control over your full financial life. And so when I think about the work that we've done across our markets, what we started with was really thinking about infrastructure and data. Because when we think about getting to that last mile, the major problem that we all face as financial institutions or operators focused on financial inclusion is really a lack of access to the insights and understanding of the underserved. And so how do we even identify them? How do we credit score them? And then from there, how do we serve them in multiple mechanisms so that we are a true part of their financial lives on a day to day basis? And so we started by developing this Android application that's bringing in this mix of behavioral data and mobile data allowing us to create a new kind of credit score. That is very much based on what is the day to day volatility of this underserved customer. And so that is one of the ways that we were able to navigate the pandemic and these other crises that may happen is really being there on a day to day basis with them. From there, we can also think about how do we customize these products? So again, entry into this ecosystem is one thing but what we're all looking for is engagement to understand how does the customer then build their credit over time? How does the customer pay their bills? Which bills do they pay? How much do they save? What can we provide as incentives or benefits to then bring in more capital into the industry? And so we started with access to credit as our first value. But during the pandemic, we really saw that we needed to move beyond that. So in some markets like India and Kenya, digital accounts already existed. But in markets like the Philippines and Mexico, what we saw was even though our customers were receiving remittances, they had no way to actually access that cash because it was physically impossible for them to get to those locations. And so that is why in 2020, we moved beyond access to credit and started providing a full financial account. And so now we are really that full account for them where they can save with us, they can make payments with us. And then on top of that understanding that we now have on them, we can provide better levels of access to credit. Across the countries that you are operating in, obviously, big, large, distinct places, I would think one of the challenges is giving a sort of a standardized approach to services, but also learning enough in each area to think, as to customize, to think what are the products and what are the ways the products are used locally? How do you get your knowledge deep enough in each of the countries to tailor what you're providing to their needs? I would say that one of the major things we focused on is global infrastructure that is modular. So to your point, purchasing power across every market is gonna be very different. So a dollar in Mexico is different than a dollar in the Philippines, especially during times of inflation. And so what we've done is allowed ourselves to actually have the ability per market to have different localized credit models, different, essentially different credit facilities that cater to those markets and different credit strategies or algorithms for that. It also goes into understanding the culture of those markets. And so we've done that in qualitative ways where we have product teams and user researchers across every market, but we've also done it at a pure, I would say machine learning and AI aspect where we are gathering all of this information and then able to again, build global and then also local. And I would say that for me, financial agency for the underserved is very much about again, customization. We cannot create a blanket product. We can create global infrastructure, but it does truly need to be around the market context. Al, you've been patiently there. I know Visa's got the probably, if not the most, certainly one of the very top, most extensive financial systems in the world and you're everywhere in the world, essentially. You've heard a little talk about infrastructure. Among other things, Visa's made a commitment for a big investment in Africa, but can you just talk a little bit about the infrastructure needs and challenges that still remain for that last mile and to really get financial services out to everybody in the world? Well, Matt, thank you for having us. I maybe pulled together a few themes. I think the first basic thing that's required for financial inclusion is a combination of educating people and providing that initial access to some kind of basic transaction account. From there, I think there's some common global themes that the other panelists have commented on that are important, but ultimately the implementation of this becomes very local and it's going to be different in different markets. One of the things that we have found in our business and we operate in every country and territory in the world, except for the six countries the US has sanctions against, is that it is a very local business. Payments, money movement, financial services is based on traditions and differences in laws and differences in customs and et cetera. And I think we have to make sure that across the board, we're trying to work at a local level to make these things actually come to fruition. And that's a combination of your Majesty talked about broadband access as an example. By our numbers, 43% of people in the world have never been on the internet. I mean, think about it. Everybody here Googles multiple times a day, almost more than one in four, more than less than six out of 10 people have ever been on the internet. And this is a big problem just even in the United States. I mean, the recent infrastructure bill that was passed by Congress in the United States is putting $100 million towards more broadband access because even in New York City, where there's 10 million people in the greater area of New York City, the estimate is two million of those 10 million don't have broadband internet access. So it isn't simply a problem in the rural farms in China or in parts of Malaysia. It's also in the outskirts of some of the biggest cities. So we're very focused on trying to both grow the buyer and seller side of financial services. So making sure that we are educating and providing access to people as an unwrap into financial services and then growing the acceptance footprint for small businesses, which are critical to enable people to have places to actually transact. And the reality is that all of what's happened during the pandemic has actually been helpful from the perspective of making people realize that the world is shrinking and that the e-commerce capability allows you to open up your businesses to broader and the borders that define your specific country. And we at Visa have created a capability for being able to push payments to seven billion endpoints around the world. We can push payments to three and a half billion debit cards, two million bank accounts and one and a half million wallets around the world. And that is part of our contribution to try to make sure that the infrastructure capability and the infrastructure and the capabilities and enables are continued to grow. Your Majesty, you've been involved in the issue for a long time. Getting people their first account is really only the starting point, right? The work isn't done when that happens. We've talked a little bit about education, but part of the ongoing challenge is further engagement and actually growing financial power over time. So and many people that we're talking about with the populations are actually still living somewhat close to the edge financially. So after that first step, after that first account, what has to happen and how successful are we at keeping people engaged? Well, first of all, it's access. That is usage and that is outcome, right? So if we'd actually think it in these ways, we've actually developed very much the access and we still have somewhere to go, but we're on it. On the usage side, yes, we see two thirds of these people having this access are using to receive wages or to receive payments. 40% actually use it to save on top of that and maybe to borrow. But it goes in stages. You start with the account, you have to gain trust. So the first year they start receiving some small payments and they start doing sort of bigger payments and then maybe they start sort of leaving some money in that account and that stored value. So maybe you can actually do this even more. So and then maybe there's another product coming in, but it's not obvious. First of all, what we've actually realized is that interoperability has actually helped tremendously to increase usage. If you have systems that are not interoperable, the use cases are actually quite limited and therefore the usage is very limited. That's number one. And the number two is going back to the point I've actually been told before, which is it's also, that is when basically the private sector has a very big role to play. It's to know the customers, know what the underlying needs are. For example, when do I, when these mothers have to pay the fees for the school? Know which time of the year it is because they're gonna start saving for that time. Or when the harvest is gonna happen and not give you for example, a loan that you have to pay every month or every week you have to pay in the loan back when you basically have six months of between your sewing and your harvesting. So trying to sort of cater the products to things that they really, really need is extremely important. Here we'll talk about the pandemic. One of the things we actually realized when people are in distress, remittances, even internal remittances are of great importance. So that's been the first usage of financial services, you know, the use, the first use case. But we have to realize in the pandemic is that a lot of people were in distress, not just a group in a region, in a country. Everybody was in distress. And then you really realize the need for other types of products, you know, much more savings, much more insurance, you know, maybe with health issues. And that was a very big demand, you know, and actually some of the private sector members actually did actually supply to that demand. So again, its interoperability is being able to actually be connected. And at the same time is the use cases and the product design that, you know, has to come from the private sector. Matt, if I could just dimension the remittance point that your Majesty made, 800 million people get remittances from outside their country to pay for food, pay for clothing, pay for education. We estimate the flow to be about $770 billion a year. So this is a very, very real and important use case. And it's one of the ways that starts to create some element of the entry and the usage. And on that, is there a trust issue sometimes for people using financial services because of their personal circumstances and because of the power of data? Do you have to convince them sometimes that these services are safe and effective for them when they might have a challenging situation? You know, when you're talking about money period, trust is a big factor, whether it's digital or cash. One of the things that we believe has to happen with remittances is that we need to move them so that they're 100% digital from the point of somebody initiating it to the person receiving it. That number was only 3% we're totally digital five years ago and it's only 13% now, meaning the other 87% of the time somebody's got to get cash into the, cash either comes into somebody or cash is given out at the back end of it. If we can make it all digital, it'll be faster, it'll be more efficient and it will help create this access at the other end for the receiver. So, Juan, I want to follow up on something Her Majesty said, which is the private sector has to move this forward in terms of innovation, in terms of products. So, you may not be there now, but as you think ahead to how products like yours should evolve, will evolve, what are the needs and what are the possibilities out there? And one piece I wonder about is, do you stay financial services forever or does eventually it become an everything app in a certain sense? But how do you think about that? So, I think, I would say two things. The first thing is when I think about even this point we're making around remittances, right? I think it is really critical that interoperability is part of that. So, as I think about this kind of global infrastructure layer again, even companies like ourselves, we've integrated into cash rails like 7-Elevens, into remittance channels, into bill payment centers, but also into mobile wallets, into traditional bank accounts, into places where people can physically pick up cash and what we've evolved to is now also having our own digital account. But when we think about the underserved, right? The reason that they focused on cash was trust. And it was this idea that I physically can hold this money. No one can take it away from me. I can put it under a mattress and I can keep it safe. And so, when we think about how do we overcome that barrier of trust, one, interoperability starts there because we're just everywhere that they are already. So, they see us, they can physically pick up the cash, but that next piece, I think, is value. And so, the reason that we started with credit as our first product was because the underserved customer has very, very low levels of liquidity. 80% of the 8 million customers that we've already served are below minimum wage. These are truly the unbanked or underbanked customer. And so, offering them an account and saying, save with us, bring your money into us without giving them real value is a hard sell. And so, by actually taking that first risk and saying, we will actually lend to you before you give anything to us, all you need to do is sign up with us. That changes, again, the paradigm. Now, this customer realizes, by bringing my money in, I get better access within this ecosystem. I have a technology question. This is gonna sound like a very wonky Davos question. Is blockchain in the long run a help for something like what you do, potentially, or no help at all? So, I believe that it can be very helpful as you think about scalability on the infrastructure side. And the idea of protecting people's capital and, again, money movement becoming much cheaper, faster. Today, when a customer downloads our app, they get access to credit in under 10 minutes. So, it's very instant, but when I get excited about this idea of, can we make it even faster? And can we make it cheaper for Tala as well as the customer? So, I think it's useful there. In terms of consumer adoption, I think there is still a very large gap that we have to cover in terms of, again, the trust. We are just onboarding these billions of customers now into the digital realm to then show them the fluctuation that could happen around cryptocurrency, I think it's too much. And so, I think that's where, again, we become the stewards and the true financial partner. I would like to make a comment on that. And I think that, you know, we've actually done a lot of work on central bank digital currencies. And I know that there's something that certainly for all the people that I talk to, there's a lot of interest in. Basically, if we look into it, a lot of people say it's good for financial inclusion. It's still to be seen. It's depending on the design, the price, the trust, the costs. Talk about sort of, you know, the amount of electricity we have to generate to actually make a blockchain currency actually work and the capacity of electricity in a given country. So, and still today, a mobile app is seven times cheaper, probably, than a digital currency. So, the jurisdiction out there, design has to be really very good. Dinesh, I want to ask about one other aspect. We've talked here very much about through the lens of individuals, of course. We haven't talked much about businesses and financial inclusion. And obviously, India is one of the most dynamic entrepreneurial countries in the world. So, can you share a bit of how your efforts have affected businesses and startups and the opportunities for them in India and what you've done, what needs to be done? Sure. When we opened these accounts, they were all zero balance accounts. And now, over the period of time, it has come to a situation where almost $50 is an average balance in these accounts. So, this also means that we're in a position to channelize the small savings from across the country from such a large population of the country. It is almost one third of the country's population. That is one aspect of it. The second aspect is when it comes to, we have also started extending them loan facility. Again, whatever balance they are keeping in their accounts now, based upon that we have started extending them the loan facility, which helps them in scaling up their entity, whatever activity they are doing. So, many of them are doing small little businesses, but that also gives us, this initial loan facility gives us enough visibility in terms of the nature and the kind of transactions which they are doing. We have come to a stage, we have started running analytics on these accounts. And we have started offering them the pre-approved bonus loans as well. Those are coming to those levels. So, I think it has, in a way, it has become one of the very important building pillar for the economy now, because it was never envisaged that these are the set of people who can become so relevant for the Indian economy. But today, they are one of the important components of the Indian economy. And also, I think when it comes to inclusivity, this is going to go a long way. And when we have started using the banking correspondence, they are helping us in identifying the potential various opportunities in these, with this group of people. They are nearer to the ground. They are nearer to their commercial activity. They have got much better commercial intelligence about their actions. So, all this is something which is unstructured information, but it has been put to use to ensure that we build up a good quality of awareness out of it. Matt, if I could pull together a couple of these last points. Small businesses are critically important. They're 40% of the GDP of many countries. They're 45% of the GDP in the United States. They're the engine of growth for jobs and the economies around the world. But where we need to help them is with low-tech solutions. It's not blockchain. India is a great example. There's a Bharat QR code. You don't need electricity. You don't need telecom. You put a QR code up, and that immediately opens up acceptance of the world, or at least in the face-to-face world for that merchant. Very low-key. I mean, the QR code could be on a piece of cardboard. The other thing that's happening on my phone with me is we're turning phones into point-of-sale devices so that, again, you don't need electricity. You don't need wires. You're a merchant and you have a phone. Somebody can come and buy by literally tapping their phone to your phone. And so these are real... We have to be thinking about smart, pragmatic, even lower-tech solutions to try to uplift these small businesses and get them into the financial mainstream. Aditha, there's also a very important point on the SMEs. First of all, as you said, the economic impact of it. And there's also agents for financial inclusion, as well, because if you don't have acceptability of digital wallets, the people are going to continue in cash. So we need to have a very wide spreadedization of merchants all over the country. The other very big issue is we have the cash that is still continuing to be there. And we have to think why is that cash still there? There's trust, you know, that you have to sort of believe. But there's also another issue, which is taxation. And there is a very important point in what merchants say, you know, why should I actually tell all the transactions that I'm doing because I'm going to become formal? And we're talking about, you know, 80% informal merchants, informal SMEs. I mean, there's very little amount of actually formalized. So we need to also have a vision. And that's where I think it would be wonderful. It means the finance and gender-developing world and actually the IMF has actually written a paper on this on how important it is to make it extremely simple to become formalized with very low-level taxation for them to really grow. And then they will grow their own productivity because with this low-tech things, they also all of a sudden they have sort of, you know, inventory management. They can actually increase their markets because they can actually sell into other markets. They cannot access, you know, by foot anymore. They can actually sort of, you know, get much better information about prices. So this, it would actually become an amazing productivity hike for a lot of these merchants and SMEs. But there's a trust issue there is really what you're saying, which is once my data is available, once I'm using it, once particularly if I'm in a public-private situation, there's a transparency there. And of course, in many parts of the world for many small businesses, the economy is an off-books economy. And it changes per country, I have to say. In Mexico, this is a very big problem. Argentina is a very big problem. But in other countries, you know, in some African countries, it's not an issue. So it also varies according to region and countries. But this is something that we really have to address. So what is the good to actually formalize, you know, systems in general and start to, you know, and actually expect very, very beginning or just try to sort of, you know, completely, you know, kill them with forms and red tape and, you know, very high taxation. And they're always going to try to avoid that. And you will never have the capacity to supervise that. I can see you wanted to jump in because this trust issue and this sort of codification issue has to happen. But it's part of the challenge and part of the educational job as well, I would say. And I think it's actually on us as operators and financial partners to think again long-term. So for us, if we really believe in financial agency for the underserved, then competition is good, right? We actually need more people trying to serve this population. Who's your competition in these places? Who do you look to at other apps or products? Who, I mean, are there other, are there a lot of people in your space you're looking against? I mean, I think that we see that traditional banks are trying to come downstream. It's hard still for them to take the kind of risk that we do or move as nimbly as we do. We see the super apps trying to get into financial services. But again, what we see is most have actually stayed again at that middle class to upper middle class population where they're offering higher quality products and higher choice of products. But again, that entry and access, the fundamental, like are we really focusing on the unbanked and the shocks that they're facing? Not many people are playing there. But I think that's why it's on us as companies where yes, we've served now four billion in access to credit to almost these eight million customers, but it's what have we also gained as a result of that? We've gained access to their families, to their networks, to their communities. And so how do we help other service providers leverage the infrastructure that we've built and the understanding of this customer base? And so for me, I think that's how we move further in financial access is not do it by ourselves, but really think about again, these collaborations and partnerships, even as operators or again with governments. And governments play a very vital role. If governments adapt to having their subsidy programs done digitally, it'll make a big difference. To the point about access in Uruguay, they're incenting merchants to get POS devices in Italy. You get tax rebates if you're a merchant and you digitize your payments. These incentives and these actions by governments also play a big role. I think it's all a very important point you're all making, which is the digital revolution is one of the greatest opportunities to reach the unbanked ever if you take the action. But in many cases, it's still the default to go to the middle and upper class and forget about that population. I wanna see if there's questions in the room that we wanna take. I think there's probably not enough time, but this one right here. Thank you for the comments. My name's Claire Tilke. I live in China and lead Heinz, one of the largest international real estate firms there. The question is for all countries, we, one of our focuses on affordable housing and access, but in the last mile discussion that came up earlier and then particularly addressing women, what do you feel are actionable items that the private sector can take for those of us who are not in the digital side but do have some access to this population? Yeah, I can, and I'm sure that you can also do because you've actually sort of had to call it with clients. Number one, have an ID. Women have much less IDs than men, so therefore they cannot open a bank account. They have not only are less connected, their phones are actually less good than their sons and husbands. And if they don't actually have to share the telephone with sons and husbands. So this on the gender side, these are two very important issues. And then afterwards is thinking about the product. It's really going to very safe and really thinking about the needs of these women, the health needs, the education needs for the household, the energy needs. I think that there's so much, and you talk about affordable housing. I mean, there are a lot of fintechs now that actually started to think about this brick safe or how do you little by little start saving instead of actually, because what people used to do before women, they got some money. They put some bricks, they put them aside. The next time they have money, they put them aside. And it starts sort of, you know, until they can actually build up a whole room. But you know, it comes in rain, half of the bricks actually get destroyed. So there's other ways we can actually help them do the same thing instead of actually having the physical bricks, but having sort of digital bricks and actually being able to save in that way. So it's really listening to the underlying needs. And I think you can actually fill that in or maybe your things that you've actually done in which women can actually use more of your products. I would just provide an example from our work. So we've served now over 1.5 million women small business owners across these markets. And I think it is really critical to understand their needs. But I think, you know, again, I go back to trust and value. And I think it's when you can prove that this is a product that will protect your privacy, that nobody else needs to know. So to your point on, you know, this is safe. If you save with us, your husband or other family members cannot access this. You know, in many countries around the world, savings is actually, you know, considered selfish because you're not spreading the wealth among your family. You know, and so we have to find ways to, again, start with that trust, that privacy. And then from there, again, provide the incentives and the value so that the woman actually then comes in and continues to build her financial life with you. Maybe we just one more thing to add. I mean, I've actually spoken to women and said, I go to this correspondent banking because there's a woman there. If there's a man there, they will not go there because they were not shared with because he might tell the husband. So I think also having that example, that, you know, that would actually increase the trust is extremely important. I want to try to do this. We've got a question right here. How can you ensure these applications are safe by design? I'm an Australian regulator and we see technology facilitated abuse, financial abuse as a form of course of control over women. We even see men sending child support payments to their former partners and using microaggressions in the F-post transactions. So how do you ensure that these are safe by design and they aren't misused by people who may want to have financial control over their partners? If I may come in here, because normally when it comes to all these women's correspondents, we allow them access to an intermediary core functionality and when we offer them the access, we also ensure that there should be adequate firewalls which they must be observing always and we can have an oversight on what kind of firewalls are there and that is something which is helping us in ensuring because what you mentioned is very important because unless and until there's a credibility of these intermediaries, the confidence level of the larger population will always be a matter of question. So I think it is very incumbent on the part of intermediaries and also the institutions who are involved that they have to create an ecosystem which is absolutely secure. It is not merely that, it is not merely the digital ecosystem but also there is a need for having adequate oversight on the functioning of these correspondents also so that they should not somehow get into an activity which can shake up the trust of these larger populations which means they must not embezzle the money whichever, whatever they're accepting. So that's why we invariably use the digital and the physical mechanisms to have adequate control on all these intermediaries. Quick. No, maybe, I mean, we've been doing issues on consumer protection now for so many years and having recourse mechanisms, if somebody really loses the money, you know, the company has to be able to actually get that money back if there was a fraud. I mean, it has to be something that has to be very fast because otherwise a loss of trust is incredible and it goes very, very quickly. So I mean, the companies, and that has to be something that has to be worked between the private and the public sector in terms of, you know, in case of all these risks, what are the recourse mechanisms and, you know, how fast are you going to be? Do you have, you know, 24-hour, you know, telephone numbers somebody can call and immediately sort of, you know, so those are the things that are actually going to increase trust. I mean, I don't know about the husband sending sort of messages. I mean, something that, you know, depending on per culture, these things are going to be sort of dealt upon, but that's something, you know, you can definitely, between the public and private sector can actually deal with. Your majesty, appropriately with the last word. Thanks very much. Obviously a topic that there's a lot of passion about, that's an important issue in the world. Four panelists who know a lot and are very committed to working on financial inclusion in many ways. So many thanks to all of you for your time and thanks to all of you for being with us today. Thank you very much. Thank you.