 good evening, good afternoon, good morning, wherever you are joining us from. My name is Abhijit Bhadri, I am a leadership and social media coach. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the kind of things that I have faced in my career. My career has been a series of changes I've worked across different sectors and tried different things and every time I felt that I wish I had somebody to whom I could ask a bunch of questions because career has so many choices, how do you generate options, what is the right timing, what is the right sector to be in, is it better to be on your own versus something else and are we just too obsessed with careers only in the corporate sector etc etc etc. There are a whole lot of questions and in order to really talk to us about those kind of dilemmas I have got with me, somebody who has really seen a whole range of options from fairly close quarters and has a point of view which I really like and respect. So I have with me Pratik Kumar who is the CEO of Vipro Infrastructure Engineering and he's going to be my guest this evening so without further ado, Pratik, hi, welcome, thank you to Dreamers and Unicorns show and such a delight to have you here. Where are you joining us from? So I'm in my office in Bangalore and hello to all the viewers and listeners who have also logged in and good to be here. All right because there's some user who's joined in and said that to decide between something and work from home live and a visit live I'm opting for you, you sound grounded. So we have all kinds of interesting listeners and viewers comments, I'll bring them up but I wanted to get started with a couple of questions that I had about these are timeless career questions so I just thought I should ask you for your view. When you look at your career graph, you know you finished, I know that you did your college undergrad in Delhi University and then you went to XLR and did a degree in human resources. So when you did that, you know did you really sort of think about your career the way it's turned out to be what aspect of it is what you planned, what you wanted and what is it that has been different from what you wanted? So Abhijeet the honest answer is no, you know we spent those two years in XLR and you've been part of it so you know it as much. I mean those very happy two years but if I now begin to you know share and say that look you know we had scripted it all out that how it's going to pan out over the next couple of decades I think it will be rather insincere and our expectation from career at that point in time was to be able to get associated with a good institute, good organization which will give expression to whatever talent which you are bringing into the organization and through the process you realize all that you aspire from your own professional pursuit. So that was about it and maybe some distinction on you know I mean the classic differentiation those days whether you want to go into industrial relations or whether you want to remain a human resource. So broadly I think you had that kind of clarity but beyond that I don't think we compartmentalize ourselves saying that look and the way those conversations you know today I get to listen to when I have those with the youngsters where they are very clear about the sectors they want to go to they're very clear about the size of the organizations they want to be associated with or not associated with I do not think those lines were as distinct when we were there. Was it because there weren't that many choices to begin with or was it that you know I mean I certainly can tell you that forget the external world I just didn't have any clarity about what I wanted out of a career and I always had a very sort of the feeling was always that I jumped into the swimming pool and we'll figure out whether it's the deep end or the shallow end or am I swimming back towards the steps. So I really didn't ever have that. So I think the concept of what a career should look like and I think it was reasonably well defined to the understanding of all the folks who are there in the management schools and even outside. So one didn't flirt around with that concept as much and to your point Abhijit it's also a fact that you know the kind of range of options which today we get to see is not something which was available then it really technology the way it has played a role in terms of hastening and adding to the velocity to your career moves that was not something which was there the format was very very traditional and the expectation was because and who do we look up to I mean we were looking at our own parents generations and many of them have built their own career being part of one institution right from start till the end. So you get into a good organization build strong work ethics build on those value systems and begin to contribute begin to learn and you know work your way through and through the rites of passage hopefully you will do well in life you will do well in your career and you will inspire others to do likewise. So I think it was broadly that so to your point yes I think there have been very clearly couple of shifts which have taken place you know since the time when we were in excel and today so one of course what I actually touched on so your career is no more a linear graph right so it doesn't get measured anymore in terms of the chronological age so in terms of the number of years you have spent so it doesn't it doesn't get seen through that light and I mean you would be aware of this concept of the protean career right it comes from the Greek god Proteus who could change his form at will so that from feature of Proteus comes you know this adjective protean where you could actually adapt multiple roles you can actually build variety you know mutable form you can assume multiple shapes so career in today's parlance is more about you know how you can actually build more variety how you can actually pack in many of those career shifts and moves it's more about the experiences which you are being able to build in and how you are effectively you're being able to transcend some of those which makes your own career more rich and fulfilling which in our time you know this was rather blurred or you know it never used to actually get into the in the in the discussion related to careers those days and second is something which I actually touched on is that I do believe that technology has played a great enablement role to adding to that velocity to career both in terms of shifts as well as the variety which is today available for people to actually go for so these I think were in my view are two fundamental shifts you know if when I reflect on it there are a couple of psychological shifts have also taken place and you know I'll be quick here one I think there's at a philosophical level the whole question of who owns the who owns the skills today right whether I as an employee you know it's my unique property which I own right or is it the organization and therefore the individual is seeking more control on where they would like to deploy the skill in what manner will they actually deploy the skill and there's a very nice little subtle tussle which is going on and which is spawning a new kind of work ethos where you have to actually blend and bring in people who do not necessarily seek a full-time career in organizations as well so I think that's at at one dimension which you know clearly is actually taking its own shape and role the other again from my own observation over a period of time Abhijith is that I find there is a very unique equation which has actually also set in as an individual as an employee and as an organization both are a little careful today to invest emotionally in a relationship and and I think about why would it be and the only logical answer is that both would like to retain their objectivity to make few of those career calls where organization may have to make some choices individual may like to actually make some of those choices so with they're very careful in investing in a relationship which is you know little more emotional and you know the term which used to use our time is that whole sense of loyalty and you know you deploy that today it almost appears that it's not a workable notion from either from an employer standpoint or from the employee standpoint and the attempt is that how you can build an organization which which is fair in being able to get the best out of individual and reward fairly so I think these are few interesting shifts from my organize them are from my own perspective over the last few decades which I have observed so we have some of our listeners you know commenting and someone says as long as the organization is an enabler that's fine because no one owns destiny other than the individual and of course you know the lotumah says that so nice to see him on video I once had a call with him way back in 2004 fantastic discussion so you clearly left a strong impression on that predict sham has a question specifically which I thought is interesting choice over note seems like a challenge many struggle to make that first move is this the first career move you know the first career move that you make is it as important as it used to be or is it that moving later is more possible and more fluid what would you say that's a great question sham thanks so just just this first career choice you know is that something that has a greater impact today or lesser impact today as compared to you know because there are more choices does it mean there'll be more choices as you go along so you know later moves become more important or is it the earlier moves so I think and it's a very relevant question and I believe that the first choice of your career today is a more considered one based on a fairly thought-through set of filters which you have applied to what kind of career you would like to seek so you know I have my conversation in my own extended family whether nephews and nieces who are now almost at the cusp of you know joining their own careers and you know so many of them look at me and said that look you know I would not like to work for organization which is so large and big and I would rather be in a set of which is rather small so I'm just giving you an example but people are a lot more thoughtful about where they actually get started that's one two I also believe that you know they're a lot more secure today in experimenting even if in the first move and they know there is a chance of going wrong you know someone may like to go and join a startup at a 21 year old kid who's just coming out of an engineering school is not expected to ask for you know what's your funding source and what does your books look like and show me your pna I mean just instinctively you actually go ahead because you know you want to be part of that excitement and you want to actually immerse yourself in it right you also know somewhere inside that look I mean it could actually be a wrong move and tomorrow I could be without people and uncles and aunts have said you know what that other kid who used to work in a startup and it actually just folded up within six months he says so what you know that experience will still count and I'll go somewhere else so the point being that it's it's a lot more considered choice today right and our time was that you know get out of the placement season sign off and then enjoy the rest of what is left of your stint in the institute right that used to be the larger motivation and driving force than anything else honestly that is at least in my case and I know for many of my friends and colleagues as well we have another question where someone asked that as freelancers increase as the proportion of an organizational workforce are we back to employ engagement issues for freelancers also you know is that something that organizations will need to worry about that engaging them with the same gusto as they do with you know regular employees is that even a career option I mean would the organization view the engagement of a freelancer as a career choice for the freelancer is it another way to make money for the short term what do you think? So let's back up a bit I think the design of the organization is will undergo a shift and by that what I mean is the organizations already today and most of in future will be the ones which will have to rearchitect the roles where your full-time employees as well as people who are part-time employees you know people who are just providing the service on a project basis or whatever they're all part of you know the larger organization system right and that person who is there who is not your full-time employee has got a choice either to be able to provide the service to you or to another company down the road as well and therefore the equation cannot always be where you know as long as I'm actually compensating you well you know why should it matter that is in my view is a key driver but that person needs to feel equally engaged as part of that as well so therefore the organizations will have to accommodate some of these blended lives as a part of your own organization design and therefore I cannot you know in a very conventional way I cannot actually come in and say that look when I look at the hall and say that look these are my 15 people who are my full-time employees and I can call them out and these are the people who are not there these are my contract employees or you know gig workers or whatever so I can ignore and it could mean anything you know it could mean a small celebration you're having it says and the mail goes out think about it it says only my full-time employees are expected rest of you can continue working the way you are and maybe it's a very crude example just to illustrate the point you can't do that I mean as long as a person is there rest of the lines need to blur is just the contract with the individual is having with the organization is of a different nature right there is one individual is offering all his services to organization based on a certain contract versus another one which is who's a full-time employee but outside of that I don't think rest of it needs to change in any manner. Yeah so you know you have some of the responses like Prabhakar just says that it brought back memories of how we looked at placements and the summer internship where you looked at locations like Bangalore were a bigger driver. Sham says that he really likes your answer and he says even his choice at engineering at 21 was you know only to escape medicine rather than a conscious choice of you know what else to do. There is also another question which Sujoy has asked and I'm going to bring that up I think it's a great question he says that you know when a fresher you know somebody who's entering the workforce for the first time what factors do they really use when they look at making a considered choice about an organization and I would just add a corollary and say has it changed over the years what's driving that change if there is any so what would you say. So some of it I already alluded to in my previous response Abhijit where people are a little more careful in making some of those choices right because they have very clear go-no-go criteria the kind of organization they want to be associated with. I gave you only one dimension of a size of the organization which many of the kids feel very overwhelmed and never try to impress them saying that you are you know 200,000 people large you know gorilla right that's not the most inspiring thing to tell a youngster of 21 and for him or her to believe that is going to be 200,001 employee in the company. So the organizations will become more small and more focused where the person will need to become a part of that atomized part of the organization and that becomes the anchor for the person to learn for the person to contribute and get identified with right. So that's only one dimension which I spoke about in terms of the size but we also know that you know the students and the freshers today are most socially aware some of them make their choices based also on you know the larger purpose of the organization whether it identifies with some of their own beliefs what they think it and it's a great thing and today they're being able to anchor some of their choices or so anchor some of their you know these considered choices because those options are available for people to do it right. So people to the question you know what are some of the things they look for I think some of those elements have not changed much I mean they seek an opportunity to learn they seek an opportunity to contribute they seek an opportunity to get fairly rewarded they want to see how fast and quickly they can move but most of it is they want to the timelines are blurred right they want to pack in in that short period of about a year or two years which they have set themselves out for in in the likely association with any organization as much as they can and if they can actually maximize it in that organization well and good if they think that they're getting stuck for some reason then they will move on. So there are multiple things which go into the making these choices how it actually fits into the jigsaw of a 21-year-old impressionable mind to make that call where he or she will join is little difficult but what does not go away is that yes I mean the lure off being awarded in a handsome manner for the work which you will be bringing the organization continues to be a big driver we can't shy away. So more of a yes no kind of question do you think that you know today people in the early stages of their career are far more driven by the money than the purpose or the nature of the work is that you know okay should one say that? It's never one factor and and you know if you try and impress someone by only you know just showing you know this is the compensation. Showing the points. Yes and you have very little else to talk about in terms of the learning opportunity or the work opportunity or you know how the person could contribute to how the person so it becomes it's like you know it's it's a nice book Abhijeet and you being an author you will know where you show only one nice juicy chapter but you leave out the rest and one doesn't know I would hesitate to actually read a book which I do not know little more other than that just one chapter you told me right so people need to actually know the whole nine yards before they make the call. And and I think that it's also that you know when you look at engaging freelancers like Bismay Meshra actually says as a freelancer can the organization stress the whole notion of engagement just as much as they do for employee engagement and someone before that has answered that freelancer is not a free floater they are passionate individuals who also want to change their influence. So to which at least Roy has an interesting follow-up question that is it a problem for the gig workers to switch on and off between the organization's culture as they engage with multiple organizations because they may or may not be able to make a choice in terms of who do they really that their engagement is much shorter so is there like a curve that you know if you are looking at a longer stint then you worry about the organizational fit in a shorter more transactional engagement you don't is that a valid way to look at it? Yeah and I think Sajay's question is also a little more deep than that and it also says as you keep moving from one organization one exposure to the other you keep getting exposed to different cultures different value system some of it may not at least sit well with your own value system and whether you get comfortable or you think that in any case it's just a service which I'm providing so I'll do it finish it off and then move on and so I think Abhijeet over a period of time based on your experience you get clarity on you know who you want to work with and who you do not want to work with and it you know some of it is you know coming through your own experience some of it is anecdotally through you know your colleagues who may have actually been there and what they have to share it reminds me almost of you know the Uber drivers who actually today rate you you know as a customer right I mean just like we like to rate service providers they also rate you know and you know well you could be giving whatever rating and if your rating is something like about three out of five consistently over time they also know whether it's a it's a good customer to actually have or not have right so I think that's the larger issue around this whole arena of gig worker which I think is as a concept is here to stay right so organizations have to actually wake up I can tell you in my own organization I have had people who wanted time who wanted space but I still value what they bring to the organization and we have completely structured their contract and the time and the you know the employment in a manner where they are able to balance the both very effectively and we have done it in number of cases and it works as well it works perfectly but if you have to actually take it to a certain scale there are a few other things which need to be addressed right and which is in terms of you know the whole ecosystem around in terms of rules regulations the labor laws and all those are still not addressing many other things which ought to be there I mean like for instance it may not be applicable to the professionals of a certain kind but just go a couple of notches lower in terms of some of the benefits and others which are fairly basic need for an individual and his or her family right where does that actually come and you may be aware I mean there are today cases being fought in the US where a lot of gig workers are contesting for many of these privileges and benefits they should be treated no different from employees so I think it's an evolving space one should keep an eye but I have absolutely no doubt that it's an organization will see different shades of people as part of it and organizations should have the wisdom to be able to bring all of them and get best out of them. So you know there is so you have someone who says that's a great example the Uber driver rating the passenger and both have a choice it's a two-way process I think I sort of built on this comment and say that there is an opportunity to create a platform where gig workers also rate the people who they are working with you know in terms of how well they are treated are they paid on time are they you know treated with a certain degree of dignity curtsy basic facilities being extended to them etc so I think we will see that kind of a model coming up and you know you do have versions of this in some of the platforms you know some of them do but it's not as prominently there I think when in a hierarchical society it still remains the employer's rating of the individual but in the informal world outside there are enough people there are enough places whether it's glass door or some such thing many people also do rate so that's a response and some of the other people have also asked a couple of questions that you know where I kind of think that this whole notion of when you are switching and this I'm drawing on Prabhakar's question that you know he's asking that when you people switch in shorter intervals does it take away from building what are usually called crucible experiences that your user really shapes you and is it true that today organizations look for people with a greater variety of experiences because here you are you pretty much you know spent most of your career I would say 95% of your career in one organization so in that sense you can't even say that you know it's that you've looked at 15 different sectors you've changed within the group how do you reconcile all of these little factors yeah no I so one needs to be clear what one is seeking out in that engagement so if I want to be a person very comfort in my skin being a gig worker and being able to continue because there are a lot of other positives of it which otherwise may not be available I mean you have the flexibility of who you work for in a manner of speaking you can at least set your own time and pace you know how much time you will actually commit to that work and all that the crucible of experience which Prabhakar was speaking about it's true because the whole concept of being able to mold a new entrant in the organization and be able to take them through that rites of passage and teach them the navigational skills in the beginning then you know help them to actually move on where they are able to influence the outcomes in the organization and eventually they're able to influence the direction of the organization when they assume more strategic role in the organization right I think some of those may not be relevant here because you're not trying to actually through the gig employment and you're not trying to have these people become institution builders right and that for you would have be a separate set of people but do they the question is do they contribute to the culture of the place in a very subtle manner yes they do also anyone who is what shapes the culture of the organization of the gig I mean it's culture of the organization gets shaped by every little interaction every little experience which all come together to be able to you know sustain regular basis people something which feel it right and it doesn't matter whether it was the nature of your engagement with the organization you are in some manner contributing so you're contributing to the culture of the setup you're associated with whether you like it or not right so but however you're not being groomed for certain roles because that's not the choice you have expressed yourself for right and therefore that doesn't become the focus of the organization either right but for that role for which you're offering your services does it mean that am I going to be denied in terms of training inputs no I mean I think the organization should be benefiting if the right kind of training inputs are given to you which will make you even more productive for what I am ready to compensate you for but you know if the thought is that whether I need to actually take him or her through you know a leadership coaching you have to be able to manage you know large team of people to assume higher responsibility that would be firing in a little different direction and it may not completely miss the mark and you know I just a quick yes no on this one do you think then people who are looking to run organizations that you know I like to sort of run a team of 50 people 200 people those people are better off staying inside organizations as compared to people who are comfortable working in smaller teams becoming freelancers is that a generalization or you think it's not a valid observation I so I do not think today people are putting this or spelling out the need to handle 100 people 200 people 300 people under my gaze as the most fitting reason for me to become a manager I mean it's an happenstance that because organizations are growing large the project sizes are becoming larger and my therefore my team sizes are growing but that's not the most driving force for me to be there and even for I would this would be my recommendation because I cannot put myself in the shoes of that individual I mean today you are making a choice right of and very comfortable in your skin being a solo leader right a solo service provider but that should not come in the way of you sharpening some of your other skills tomorrow if because of your skill and the nature if you're said that look you're very good in being able to program manage so what you were doing why don't you actually manage you know you cannot then reflect and say that look that's not something which I actually expose myself to and I feel constrained I feel a little hesitant so I think that's something which has to be there as part of your repertoire and because the opportunity to come in various shapes and sizes and why do you why do you do you like to miss out on that simply because you denied yourself that exposure you know a related question which I want to bring up now Pavani has been very patient she's asked this question a while back that today we have a number of technologies seeping into the operational roles and do you believe that you know should individuals be multifaceted or look for linear growth in one particular skill set the context of this I want to just sort of broaden it and say that when people are looking for their career path you know typically some of the exercises ask people to draw it out they draw it like a set of steps or a ladder you know is it a smarter idea today to by yourself visualize your career like a web you're going through a series of experiences and that may happen at a you know more senior level or you know with a broader scope in other organizations to really focus on the experience rather than the place where you're working or the duration because you know there are times people switch from full-time employment to part-time so there are multiple ways in which those careers are getting shaped you know what would be your take on that no I would agree with what you said eventually I think it's you know career is a series of experiences and you know more you're able to back in as a part of your repertoire it's more fulfilling it's more rewarding as well and Abhijit you know we must understand if Pavani's question also was that you see we have to acknowledge that the roles are likely to get more broad more expansive and multi-directional right and therefore if I can make a choice saying that look I want to just remain in one area and I can just go deeper in it that's a call and you could very well do you can do very well but increasingly as you grow you've got to actually be able to build a certain perspective your ability to be able to connect those dots and I've often heard this term called you know the pie shape you know career where you actually build your depth in you know one or two deep areas but you should have the ability to be able to connect dots across multiple dimensions which is what allows you to build insights which is what allows you to be able to pull in from you know all the external available sources of information and that's how it's going to be because you will never be in a position where you will be master of the trade in everything and your need and ability to collaborate with others to learn from others to be able to know the source of where I can actually get a certain input which will help me in my own task that becomes too shell so I think well I I've not reflected enough on you know the whole concept of pie shape leadership but instinctively to me it makes sense because that's what at least I try to do what alphabet would you use to describe your own career you know would you use the pie shape take yeah why go beyond I mean it seems to be more like it I mean so you know so I'll share with you what has always interested me is to look beyond what was always told to me as my own set of goals and objectives so I never ever in my own career tried ring fencing myself around that and I've always tried looking beyond and I think the opportunity when I stepped into the the HR leadership role for the corporation that gave me the canvas to really fly sideways and be able to experience the full potential of the the whole corporation you know across multiple sectors across multiple industries across multiple challenges geographies and we and there was something which was very unique to be able to learn from each of these which I think has significantly shaped me in in this pursuit where I built set of skills which is helping me and hopefully helping the organization but I by the same token being able to just be able to look at the wider set of elements out there and be able to draw meaning because that's what your team members are looking at you what are what do your team members are expecting from you to be able to understand and bring insight to them right from the market trends and you be able to draw the essence of it and be able to tell them look this is these are likely pitfalls and this is where I'm going and for that you require that breath. You know you have a very interesting you talked about your career in HR when you're doing that you were working with Azim Premji and what do you see like as a boss and you know because you've had him in two stints let me just sort of for the benefit of the listeners you had him as a boss if I'm not mistaken when you're I can see you smiling at that question which comes from the left field you had him as a boss in HR you again had him as your boss in a business role was he different when he was your manager in each of these or would you say that he remains the same and he asked the same kind of questions or you know what was it like to work with him? So first of all he is still my boss okay so whatever I say no so I do not want to be misunderstood by listeners here that I'm indulging in any kind of flattery which is not what he would like this is not something which I would like to do and the other problem is that so much has already been written about him I'm not sure what new I can perhaps have but let me give it a shot right so it's a fact you know across both stints both in human resources role as well as in my business role I've had the rare opportunity to work with him closely and when you work with anyone you know closely you know not only him but anyone else you you get an opportunity to observe that individual and few things according to me always stood out when I think of Mr. Premji as a leader is that he will never expect Abhijit for you to do something which he will himself not do first right and it and it gets expressed in multiple ways and I can give you examples here even simple thing like you know you're aware we have the pro leadership qualities which is a 360 degree process and it's a massive exercise and the whole organization has to actually do it without fail he will always be the first one to actually complete it for his own director towards him finish it he'll send it out and as soon as he is done with it he'll start chasing all of us whether we have done it or not right so I'm just giving you a simple example to illustrate I mean he will never demand anything from you which he himself will not be subjecting himself to that's I think it's a it's a it's a rare quality in any leader and he is something which he does it very consistently and the second is something which has got spoken about but worthwhile reiterating that he has enormous appetite for sustained hard work and you know that's something which is something which he's able to do and and something I've seen being able to do for years together and as a part of that routine is that he's very he's very he gets into details he's very data oriented but the interesting thing is that even though he is data oriented but he he relies on his instinct when making a judgment and that I think is an interesting learning right while all the data of the world is telling you something your years of experience is what actually shapes your instinct and it's always a call when you're wondering what to actually listen to and very often in many of the situation I've seen where he's very comfortable in being able to make the call which could actually use which could be little contrarian as well and the last I would say is that he bets on people and it's and I think all of us have been beneficial I've been beneficiary of it I mean I was not groomed or had experience in a business role he put that he betted on that and and you know hopefully I've not disappointed him in the organization right so your question was little different was that you know you know between HR role and the business role did he come across as a different manager or a leader uh frankly no I mean the rigor of his interaction and engagement would be pretty much similar that I don't think it undergoes a change but maybe when you're in an you know you see I think he has a very good sense of the pulse of the organization and I always used to maintain that he has innate ability to know the elasticity of the organization to absorb a change right which is what good HR leaders are supposed to be doing right I mean you have to have that sense of the pulse of the organization which he does it and he does it because he's out there he's meeting people he's meeting across hierarchy and he is able to pull in all that very effectively he does copious amount of work in terms of understanding uh understanding people right and he will he will spend enormous amount of time being able to take inputs from all across to be able to form his own judgment on people which again is a crucial learning and lesson which uh in my interactions around people and personalities and I was in HR I mean that used to surf as very often and the last bit I would think and the HR front which is that we very often get caught in this dilemma between how do we position ourselves as an organization right whether we are a nice all embracing organization where everyone feels very comforted versus a hard-nosed organization very very performance driven I need I need to see what you're bringing to the table at the end of the day and if not then there are the consequences right and organizations get trapped in this dilemma according to me and and his attempt always has been to be a fair organization you know don't get pulled in in either of the directions so that I think was some of my own observations as far as business world is concerned I think it is a lot of time goes and being able to understand the market and connecting effort to connect those dots but only one element I'll say and then with that I'll stop is that there most of our discussions is from a long-term point of view what makes sense for the organization and therefore bet from a long-term point of view and remain persistent in your pursuit once you have so you don't you don't dribble around every other day and keep asking whether it's working or not working I mean once you have and we have we have one or two businesses in our fold which have struggled a little longer than what we anticipated right but it requires patience it requires persistence and requires a belief that in the longer the point of view which we are doing is right so I would really I hopefully you know it's what you were wanting to me to touch on and yeah I mean one can go on and on but I think I should stop yeah you know we have professor TV now actually who makes a interesting comment that today people are becoming more complex in their aspirations and therefore we need more complex HR systems that use technology what is your view on that uh so I I'm I'm not sure I I completely agree that we require complex HR systems we need the HR system which can address those complexities right and and we may be just be compounding an issue dealing with you know complex set of issues which is again complicated by another complex set of HR systems which can just confound the organization and and what professor is saying is absolutely right because technology may not be a penicillor to all that we actually desire to solve all those issues but technology can simplify the organization and the systems in a significant way right and if we do that realization early we are able to actually set a few of those principles right in the beginning it becomes easier much later it's like steering one big gigantic ship which takes much much longer it's more cumbersome and a lot of time effort money gets wasted so and we can actually discuss this more time permitting but did I see there was a follow-up comment from uh no he's just sort of summarized the conversation that you had about your comments about Premji he says that you're a personal example sustained hard work data oriented and taking bets on people and being intuitive is what describes Premji as a manager or as a boss so he's I think summarized one of the great somebody by the way Ben and and I think you know one piece to sort of look at is this morning I was chatting with somebody who heads you know compensation and benefits and he was talking about the the challenge of doing this entire thing because you know people you're paying the person house rent allowance called let's say Mumbai I'm just taking an example and the person decides to then operate out of Nenitha where there's a lower cost of living or any other city for that matter so you know if you reduce that you know many people get offended and they sort of want to have that extra cushion but then it's unfair to somebody who's sort of working you know who's hired from a smaller town who's sort of getting a lower option people want to you know they are saying that you know because of for whatever personal reason they're having to manage they want to reduce their time you know so I don't want to work full-time I want to work you know four hours then a month later the person say I want to work six hours so you know what do you do with this you know there's the unpredictability you want to be seen as somebody empathetic and then you know the last point that this person said was there are some organizations who may have not done anything else great for the employees but they introduced one of those gimmicky things that you know we'll offer you this and we've seen many examples of that I mean that's also my personal belief to make these kind of grand announcements on social media and a whole bunch of employees kind of say look at that guy I mean they are doing something so amazing you are not doing anything innovative so why are we like this what do you think HR should be doing I mean how should you learn HR in a world like this where employee expectations are changing the world outside is changing people are aware of many more options they are happy to leave you know where does HR operate in a time like this some of the multiple strands to your question of you but let me try and pick the last one first you know you don't tinker around with the basic character of the organization because of short term gains because anything which you are not able to sustain it over a period of time you would appear to be a very ephemeral seasonal kind of an organization who will keep shifting who you are depending on how the environment is and depending on other things which are changing in your surround so to speak and therefore I've you know there has to be a certain consistency of character to an organization how you come across in your engagement with employee how you actually reward how you compensate how you incentivize and you cannot be one where because today the going is good you know you have those you know the fancy celebrations and it's hoopla and body time and tomorrow you find that the newspapers from the front desk is all whisked away and you know even the reception with the person of the reception disappear so you don't want to be that so you always mold and this is what we do in our own personal lifestyle right we mold ourselves and bring ourselves to a lifestyle which we will be able to maintain sustain right and we do not actually go on a binge as if you know things are all I have to actually do manage save spend is for the next 30 days or so we don't do that so likewise even from an organization you need to actually approach in a similar manner so that's one the other is of course it's going to get more complex there will be the multiple dimensions to how compensation gets structured how much flexibility is going to be there and I think HR at least from my point of view I'm seeing that they are at least in the better organization they are standing up to be able to do that challenge there are deeper issues to the whole compensation philosophy as well and you know I can go in a completely different direction there which I do not think gets adequately addressed in organization where we I talked about the long-term orientation which needs to be there in reference to our discussion with regard to Mr. Fringe and when it comes to business now that's a that's not unique to Vipro it happens in all organizations but you talk about long-term all your reward mechanisms are only rewarding short-term behavior right and professionals are supposed to HR professionals compensation experts are supposed to address this this kind of dichotomy which is there where you provide live service to long-term behavior you only incentivize and you compensate and reward short-term outcomes and short-term behavior and then you expect you know why is the strategy not panning out over over a period of time so yeah I mean this is a you know this is a discussion subject by itself abhijith the whole space of compensation philosophy and how it is going to undergo a change and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are applying their mind but this this could become a weak link for organization in the desire to you know keep pace with the change which is taking place and and you know so there's a some people have given us some rapid fire questions which I'm going to just you know read them out for you there are four or five of them one of which somebody has asked me that is fluency in English language a big decider of career success and if so how does one improve yeah so I think you being good in communication certainly plays a big role and I don't think we can emphasize enough if anyone is trying to tell you that look you know this is a more an urban phenomenon and you know is an elite school point of view I would sincerely advise you that you know don't fall into the trap communication your ability to influence your ability to reason out communication both written as well as verbal that plays a big role and you know I'll just take a minute abhijith then I would like to just share and I always share it with even my own children is that forget about all the skills if there are a few things which you do you will be a lifelong learner right so you know you listen attentively right you read critically you question constructively and you write regularly if these are four things which you are doing then again you listen attentively you listen attentively you read critically you ask a question constructively constructively and the last one was around your writing that is right regularly right so if you're doing these four things you will be on a path of lifelong learning right it will never ever go away and that's something which I would advise everyone out there right if you can actually fold that in in your own in your own learning style that could be big and whether it's today is a language skill or it could be tomorrow any other skill there are ways to be able to do it but since the question was on English language I kind of expanded on it sorry it was not a valuable that you know so I think this is quite useful personally for me this was a big one I'm going to write it down and I'll share it on Twitter so people also get that you know what are some of the tools that you would recommend to stay relevant what would be your advice so again I mean this building on what I responded in my previous response so over a period of time and because of my commute and travel you know I listen a lot more than reading you know we're reading from the book or articles and therefore I have personally I have switched over to audio that is on podcasts so depending on I this is an ocean out there you could get drowned right so you got to be actually clear that you get to the right source and once you get hold of the source you stick to it so for instance for my own tech updates what's happening in the technology space I listened to a few podcasts which are I find very illuminating I mean some which are more racy it's favorite which you may have heard I listened to Decoder which is a little more in-depth take on any technology it would be on chip shortage or it would be on electric vehicle or it would be on IT I listened to Wall Street Journal technology brief which I find it extremely useful and all that you can actually do by not spending too much of time about half an hour 40 minutes a day is good enough for you to give you and make you very very current on what's happening around and what are you reading now I mean you also talked about reading what are your interests what are you reading now so my my reading is very varied so I don't want to actually hold it out as recommendation but I can certainly share you know what I've been in the last couple of months what books I've been reading so it's very varied I mean right from fiction to autobiography to non-fiction you know I kind of traverse through so currently I'm reading a very interesting book which is called Beyond the Boundary which is by a gentleman called CLR James so it's about cricket incidentally and it's set in Caribbean but it's not only about cricket it's also about the whole diaspora of you know the colonialism which prevailed during that era right and through the lens of James it talks about so it's a beautiful book I personally think it's one of the best book on sports written beyond the boundary I also read you know something which is more topical which is it's called Twilight of Democracy which is by a lady called Ann Appleburn right and very briefly it's it talks more about the extent of polarization which today exists where friends who are there together have got completely separated based on today's political beliefs and they're not being able to see eye to eye and you know she's able to build on it from her own experience she's seen that strife in Poland and today what she's seeing in the US and the last one is a fiction it's it's I'm getting the name it's by Mario Lasso is a Peruvian writer it's the Feast of Goat so it's it's it's very interesting it's in the Dominican Republic and this guy is an authoritarian leader and again it's very interesting so books what you do is it allows you to imagine especially if you've not been to a place and it's beautifully sketched out so yeah so there's fair amount of variety in what I've been reading no leadership books I have not been I would say driven in that direction but yeah this keeps me busy critique we are at the end of the hour and you know it's been fabulous 60 minutes thank you so very much and if they if people have questions and comments they are going to sort of put that in the comments you know either on LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook wherever you are watching this on or on YouTube and you know I'll try and sort of get to the point of view on that we'll do that but on behalf of the listeners thank you so very much for joining us and sharing your ideas it's always a pleasure to talk to you and especially I've got to look up some of those books that you mentioned thanks a lot for being thank you and I enjoyed the dialogue as much thank you thank you