 Hey everybody today we're debating is systemic racism real and we're starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. This is going to be a fun one folks as today we are debating whether or not there is systemic racism and who knows maybe our guests will find they agree on more than they would first guess coming in and maybe there are going to be points will disagree on but want to let you know no matter what side of this particular issue you were on we hope you feel welcome we're a nonpartisan channel so we don't have any sort of aftershows or anything where we take a side on who won or anything like that and we also have no videos in which we espouse our views as moderators so we are going to try to call this right down the line to be as fair as possible to each side and so if you enjoy debates well we've got great news we've got a lot more debates coming up and so for example you see at the bottom right of your screen tomorrow a good old debate on evolution and also tomorrow a debate on whether or not it's the right thing to do to tear down the confederate statues so that should be an interesting one as well want to let you know both of our speakers I've linked them in the description so the way that way if you're listening you're like mmm I like that I want to hear more you can hear more or check out their Twitter as well as I've linked our guest below want to let you know it's going to be a roughly 10 minute opening statement as we get started and then it's going to be open conversation following that we're going to have Q&A so if you have a question fire it into the old live chat and if you tag me with at moderated debate it makes it easier for me to grab every single question and make sure it gets put into that list super chat is also an option if you do super chat you can also make a comment toward one of the speakers of course they would get a chance to respond to that comment and super chat will also push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A so very excited to have our guests here we are going to kick it off with losar we really appreciate losar number one thanks for being here it's a great privilege to get to have you here for the first time and so thanks for being here today thank you thank you uh so i guess i'm i'll start with uh so this is my 10 minute i'm guessing um you so uh what i want to establish from the very beginning of this conversation is that systemic racism is not the same thing as perhaps institutional racism or systemic racism i want to be able to separate those because both systemic racism and institutional racism is um a set plan by some sort of system or government for it to happen um systemic racism is a cause and effect type of thinking so um for example systemic racism would basically say that even in a perfect system as if racism completely was wiped away today um the simple fact that there was racist uh decisions made that separated the racist and created i would say even the black community in essence is a result of systemic racism um if you look at any population density map if you if you look at how the united states are separated based on race it is incredibly segregated but it's not segregated in the sense of whites only areas defined or black only areas defined but how it is segregated is that for the last arguably 400 years there has been multiple systems set in place to separate the races so even if you remove those systems the races will still continue to be separated and decisions made from then on will affect the growth and development of african-americans growth and development of whites as a whole so this is why uh this is why systemic racism is a problem but it's not something that can be easily solved by waiting for someone to say the n-word or something like that it's not like that what it is is it it it affects uh i cannot remember what it's called oh it affects the um statistical growth of a population versus uh versus statistical growth and development of another population um i guess i'll seed my time i can explain more as uh as further goes on thank you you bet thank you and with that we'll kick it over to jill so jill thanks for being here again and the floor is all yours thanks for having me james i'm glad to be back uh appreciate the opportunity given and losar thanks for having this conversation does uh systemic racism exist well if you want to consider systemic racism to be a matter of policy such as jim crow you know you had laws that were enacted that are actually on the books that we can demonstrate correlate to directly to the uh oppression of a certain grace or group of people if that is your definition of systemic racism then no it doesn't exist uh if your definition is just and i think this would uh align more to my opponent's position perhaps not exactly but uh along the lines of if your definition is statistical disparities meaning we can see that certain groups are doing better than others then i would say yes it does exist because there are groups that are doing better than other groups uh we my opponent uh losar talked about cause and effect well yeah there are causes and effects but i would argue how long for how long will these effects be a major factor uh he talked about a set plan well yeah there's a set plan there's a set plan for success and there's a set plan for failure in a particular system regardless of what that system might be whether it's Babylon whether it's uh ancient Greece uh whether it's uh mesopotamia the ancient near east there is a system uh whether it's the socialist communist system in the USSR there is there are rules that you must follow in order to be successful in those systems you have to be able to demonstrate that there is systematically an advantage for one over the other so uh to the question of does it exist it depends on how you would would define it you got it thank you very much from Jill we will kick into the open discussion and with that want to mention a couple of things actually we are excited as yesterday we do once a month we do a charity drive basically where all the super chats will be going to a good cause and so yesterday thank you so much for all of your super chats yesterday we raised 107 dollars that's going to scholarships for historically black colleges and universities just kind of a way to in our hope to help bring about greater equality so we really appreciate all of your guys' support here at this channel it's an exciting thing and also want to mention we including all of our debates including this one all of them will always be public and free to anybody on youtube we do have now as a thank you to our patreons we have the mp3's if you become a patron we just kind of what's a way of saying thanks so much as we really appreciate that support and that's linked in the description so with that we're going to kick it into the open dialogue and then we'll go into the q&a so about 55 minutes or so gentlemen thanks so much again and the floor is all yours um sure i want to answer um your first question of how long will it usually take for systemic racism to um not become an effect of our system today and that depends on how a nation responds to it so for example if you look at uh the immigrant population between the years of i would say 1879 and 1930 you would notice that they had many of the issues that you would see and actually exponentially larger issues than you would see today in the african-american community many of these groups were placed in a situation where they were uh impoverished psychologically disenfranchised and they were so densely populated that their interactions created a system to where you would see uh growth and negative interactions um but if you notice right after or right between the times of arguably if you're on the left you would say more than new deal if you're on the right you would say following world war two um the government moved in and was able to distribute uh distribute resources for those groups to be able to expand into the rest of united states so if you look at any map showing where whites sit and where african-americans sit you would notice that a lot of the generational land was moved because of those systems so if you want something to move quickly i would say a system would have to acknowledge and move that but anything uh anything over time will fix itself just if you want it to be quick it would have to be something that the government would have to move in on and move on a grand level if you want it to be something that happens slower it just would have to be sit back and well um you you mentioned the indians recovering sort of from their abuse or from the abuse that they experienced yeah and blacks did the same as well by 1910 records show that more black americans owned land than uh ever before in history so over 14 million acres of land were owned by over 200 000 blacks so this led historians to refer to this period as reconstruction or the the height of black land ownership and then later we have the the new deal where these things we were of the past these wrongs of the past were addressed and in 1936 some 75 percent of black voters supported the democrats turning to roosevelt in part because of his spending programs so we do have the same bounce back as we see in other groups to up to a certain extent and that is what we're trying to determine is is the the bounce back not to that certain extent because of systemic racism or is it because of some other factor like culture i obviously would argue uh the ladder and i would i would argue that if um if we moved directly from the civil war to reconstruction to right now i would definitely agree that it would have more to do with culture than it would um any other anything else but what happened in between reconstruction and i would say 1969 was not just jim crow but it was something called the great migration and the great migration was african americans um um being i would say arguably terrorized into moving off their lands and into areas that are that were once populated by the the pop the groups that i was telling you about before the immigrants not indians immigrant populations um so as italian irish eastern european groups began to move out of those areas african americans moved into those areas and because those areas were already having substantial issues so many people said in one place disenfranchised they're already impoverished they've moved everything they have which they didn't have much to begin with into these cities the same at the same time period that american manufacturing was collapsing so the only driving force that kept many of those already collapsing neighborhoods even remotely standing above other neighborhood or remotely standing up was a manufacturing sector that was literally moved out the same time african americans moved in um so what that would mean is the the decisions based off of race and you could even i think i don't think anybody can argue that during those times these were racist decisions creates an environment that creates a statistical disadvantage a statistical disadvantage that cannot just be um argued away with uh differences in in culture or anything else like that but also grand differences in how development happened throughout the years oh i think it can be brought down to these these statistical disparities that we see can be explained by way of culture when you simply take into consideration the other groups that have even perhaps more of a tremendous deal or deal to overcome uh japanese at one point in this country were citizens of this country and were put in internment camps during world war two you know we have other atrocities of other groups so we have immigrants that come here from nothing who you know live in tar mats and uh you know tyra and if the lebanon uh home of over 60 000 refugees palestinian refugees and they come here and they're able to overcome that disparity so the question remains is how long will it take for certain cultures to do what other cultures are doing under the same circumstances and uh perhaps even worse circumstances uh also we need to figure out is who terrorized these people off the land you would say who was responsible for these atrocities and once we identify who's responsible and what their ideologies were we can prevent this from happening to other groups in the future but that's never discussed when when these issues come up so cause and effect yeah there are certain policies and ideas that have effects on on real people in real lives just like the idea that uh mark lomond hill would promote destroying a wheel or a cog out of the wheel of capitalism excusing the riots saying that you know that's the end game it's ideas like that that lead to destruction of real people's lives in black and white um to answer your first part um while we really can't argue too much about the japanese population because many of the recent immigrants you were talking about there is no statistic that just does Japanese only in the camps alone as a statistical base usually they would do Asians or Japanese as a whole and if you do any study looking at at Asians as a whole that would have to include um first and second generation Asians that have came in with substantially more resources than the average african-american would even start with also if you look at how our immigrant policies are set since i would say at least 1970 um other than bordered immigration i would say canada and mexico in order to even make it to the united states to enter into our immigration system it takes substantially more resources than it would to just cross over the border and so the ellis island argument the 15 cents in the dream argument is not as uh usable when talking about recent immigrants because you do have to have a substantial amount of resources in order to come here and they will offset any statistic that compares african-americans to immigrants so african-americans um and i'm just talking about now when i say african-americans i'm talking about the race or the origin um i'm going to try to split my arguments between african-american and black because black would be um more of the political term so if you look at laws stuff like that then i would say black um because that would encompass anybody that would fit a certain appearance but african-american i'm going to try to separate it to point out the people that come directly from slavery they all pretty much have um a connected history so it would be slavery reconstruction jim crow great migration civil rights act housing housing act um policing and then today so when you try to compare immigrant populations they're not really comparable because you're not looking at all aspects yeah we we agree that no one group experienced the same experiences that that uh you know there's not being argued um but they all have one thing in common uh they all have experienced some sort of systemic uh or discrimination if you will um black immigrants for example who flee their to war-torn countries from africa they're more likely than americans overall to have a college degree well there's well wait wait wait there's very there's not a substantial number of black immigrants that are fleeing conflict you're confusing them with black immigrants that come from i would say kenya parts of nigeria parts of south africa and parts of the ivory coast and along the western uh we all know who they themselves are uh one incredibly wealthy and two have substantial educational backgrounds before they got here yeah well no no one is success is uh suggesting that all of them were from toward torn countries of the uh over 60 or 600 000 black immigrants living in the us in 2015 those immigrants were more likely to as a group to graduate college then overall then all americans so some of these groups come over here and they do better than americans as a whole let alone any one particular subculture of america black white hispanic uh etc so it just doesn't follow then that even though a country that has been here and gone through things as well uh that their they are not able to overcome because of their different circumstance uh everyone has a circumstance everyone has an a past or a history yes but what i'm what i'm arguing is not just whether or not it's circumstance or history what i am arguing is that many of these people are selected based on their already successes in their home countries we are talking about a group of people when we're talking about african-americans we are talking about an incredibly diverse community so for example um asians in the united states have a substantially higher uh rate of graduations intelligence everything else because those are the best and brightest from those countries some of the best and brightest of those countries um but african-americans we have just like whites we have a mixture of some of the best and brightest in the country but also we have um many people suffering from mental ailments many people suffering from um physical ailments so it's not exactly the same as yeah i would i would say that we we have i would like to know how you determine that those are the best and the brightest as you would call them yeah they're the best and the bright brightest as far as their uh attitude is concerned but they come over here many of them they're poor so not recent immigrants if you're talking about immigrants of like ellis island sure but the last two generations have been um substantially the best and brightest of the generation yeah i don't know how you could determine that where are you getting that information that these are the best and the brightest are you basing this off of any sort of scholastic testing that's done in these countries and then by way of comparison you're determining that these are the best and the brightest what are you basing that off of i'm gonna send you a uh i'm gonna send you a link that that shows the education level of recent immigrants i had a recent as far as when do you mean recent power of first and second generation the the immigrants that would affect uh statistical statistical uh statistical averages so okay so so the education of a person that comes from a an area that values education and culture that values education would be expected for them to have certain college or certain uh skills yes of course i'm here so but what what i'm arguing is every culture will have um will have a number of people that have mental physical and social illnesses um those people are not really being selected for united for immigration to the united states so that barrier will create uh a statistical variable that is not in the african that would be in the african-american community that would be substantially different in the immigrant so for example african-americans will have people of all different shapes, sizes, stripes, mental acclimates and everything else but the immigrants even they're lowest even if you say they came with 15 cents in a dream um it's very rare you're going to see them with major mental illnesses majors like illnesses period across the entire board and that affects the statistics which is also why they would do statistically better than even whites because whites will also have that same issue of having every single type of person placed in their statistics while an immigrant population would be at least um not uh not having any ailments if that makes any sense yeah well i again i would have to determine that based on some type of some type of hard facts sure i'm not saying that you're you know i don't believe you but uh i you know work in the public schools and i see these people come here and don't even speak the language uh so if they did achieve some schooling in the socialist sense under the context of everyone goes to school and learn the same thing uh then that's no in no way giving them other than just as i mentioned earlier the attitude towards education uh it's not the giving them so much a heads up as you think i don't believe uh not speaking the language not knowing the culture uh and having to adjust to that uh once they arrive here and learn our culture and become scholars in our culture um so that that to me the when you say the best and the brightest uh by by what standard are you saying that this is what i would need to um i would i would say my standard is um not saying that the best and the brightest brightest in the sense of it's a whole group of steven hawking's coming here what i am saying is um even being an average person would place you in the best and brightest over i would say someone suffering from some type of ailment someone even something as simple as dyslexia but it can go from dyslexia to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia to and once you get further and further down that line those people aren't coming over on a on a substantial enough level to change statistics whereas african-americans because they are in um impoverished psychologically disenfranchised and and uh very densely populated areas the simple fact that they're going to interact with people of all different um levels is going to affect their growth and development their growth and development overall as opposed to maybe somebody who doesn't live in an area where they're stacked on top of each other um and they don't have a financial acumen you see what i'm saying um you could also argue that a good way of looking at this is if you look at many poor white areas um the more densely populated a poor white area is the higher the crime rate is so um once you get to like certain areas in boston um many like many trailer parks you would find crime exponentially rising over the national average even in white which you really won't find that much sorry overall when dealing with um um when dealing with immigrant populations because immigrant populations even though they are diverse in the sense of race and everything else uh race and gender and everything else they're not well gender yet but but race you'll find them at least a certain level of mental acumen that you don't see as overall in the united states well that's why i meant by best and brightest yeah well you you bring out the the fact that the best and the brightest are coming from these countries and um perhaps they are perhaps there are some that are the best and the brightest and sometimes there are some who aren't like i messed 13 gang members for example uh but if you just look at um this is really saying more about the countries that they're coming from than the color of their skin a few for example 59 percent of blacks foreign born blacks from nigeria have a bachelor's or advanced degree and uh that's a that's a share that's roughly doubled out of its population overall population but by comparison if you look at a country like Somalia which is more worried about uh islamic tihadi than they are uh education just 10 percent of both those black immigrants have earned a bachelor's degree so you see a disparity there even between two countries on the same continent of africa so it's not really the best and the brightest coming from these nations but it's the nations that value education and its citizens uh that are sending who they're sending over here and not exactly because if you look at um if you look at statistics from like southeast asia um overall southeast asia is having a serious issue when it comes to education um they don't value education as much as they would value other things um but um the first and second generation of southeast asians that come here would be some of the more um would be arguably best and brightest in the argument that i've given so that's why i would say that it isn't just whether or not a country values education which i would concede to you that valuing education is very very important it is also who is selected to enter to the united states and who would be rejected and that that is especially again that's why i keep specifically saying first and second generation because we have been moving that line of what we are accepting and who's we you keep mentioning that is selecting united states as a as a as a as just a system in general not we is in any particular right so you have do you have evidence support that people are being selected based on whether or not they graduated from a prestigious institution from those countries or not no i'm not i'm not what about all of the illegal aliens who don't even go through those types of checks who come over here and are successful as well well i mean since they're illegal that would skew statistics itself because obviously the more violent ones or the ones that aren't exactly succeeding would not be it would be far more difficult to find statistics on them since the fact that they're illegal and they're most likely avoiding any uh any study or anything that would have placed them into uh into us uh into uh well they come here illegally and they live illegally and they passed down the children are born here but so these are second and third generation people who come here with with basically nothing in my experience dealing with uh you know at least the younger the younger segments of these foreigners they are not really wealthy at all the ones that come here on these educational visas usually get their educational degree and then return to their countries but the vast majority of them i would say that stay here are staying here because of the opportunity that is it's provided for them in america the greatest country on that degree in earth well i'm i'm not arguing just wealth even though wealth is a substantial uh qualifier in this argument i'm not arguing just wealth i would say that many other people that will qualify for student visas in one way or another have grades showing in their home countries that they won't take that student visa and toss it out of the window and fail out of school um these aren't just picking up random kids placing them on student visas and moving over to the united states somebody either on the front end in their home country or the back end in this country will have to make sure that they are able to accomplish enough to qualify the student visa that was given to them okay well there so there are steps that america has taken to provide these individuals with some assistance once they get here i would say that the same opportunity is afforded to every citizen before that of a foreigner and other than in the cases of you know the affirmative action which uh says that you know there are certain groups of people that can get uh i'll be afforded certain things uh over you know others to go out of achievement that's that's not what affirmative action says um if anything affirmative action uh it doesn't exactly have any uh penalties or or it doesn't dictate who gets hired over anybody else um affirmative action by definition and by how the law is supposed to work is only supposed to be a risk assessment so basically once the civil rights laws were passed um multiple business owners would say hey i would love to hire african americans here but i don't know if they have the skill to be able to do the job i don't know if they would hurt the culture of our of our business and bringing them in is a major risk that i don't know if i'm willing to take so it's not just whether or not i racially hate black people i don't want to take a risk that might end up hurting me financially what affirmative action does is it creates a uh it creates a a uh i would i would argue a rebate but it's more tax break that would basically say hey depending on how many people of um minority status you bring on to to take this risk on of bringing in a completely new population we are going to limit how many people are we're going to limit how uh how much you would pay in taxes and hopefully that would offset whatever issue you would have training this person or a cultural shift you would have in the on the job or anything else so there's nothing in affirmative action that says hey hire blacks over this or hey promote blacks over anything else uh the way you're only talking about one aspect of affirmative action um i'm talking about the overall idea the overall idea is that there are certain groups that have uh limit limitations and therefore a 900 on the sat would accept them over uh oh they would be accepted with 900 on the sat rather than someone from another group uh an asian community that got a 1000 on that same example but that's not exactly affirmative action that's just an aspect of so you're only dealing with one aspect of affirmative action one that is a law one that is a nuance by the way um now they can come into your job and tell you that you're discriminated against blacks because a certain percentage of your employers are not black who is they so uh those bureaucrats the ones who come up with these ideas liberal bureaucrats we would call them in the educational field now how would how would uh how would liberal bureaucrats be able to enforce that law of how or not even well through well i'm using your example you gave me uh oh sorry you gave me you just said through incentives and also through uh threats of not of not funding so you won't receive a certain amount of funds if you don't have a certain amount of blacks so yeah it has evolved to that that's basically same but that's the same as saying to someone that doesn't have a farm why don't they get a farm subsidy well you don't have a farm if you're not taking the risk of hiring a group that has not been part of your uh has not been part of your system for years why would you receive um blacks have been part of the system for hundreds for 150 years now part of the system isn't the same thing as and what i mean by part of the system is you can claim that we are part of the system but we can also say that for years there have been active movements to keep blacks on one side and keep whites on the other well let's deal with those because that's what the debate is about not what was going on in the fifties no no but what but no no but system system systemic racism in its essence is just cause and effect so basically saying because um there has been that split and we demonstrated that other groups have had that split and they were able to bounce back what and that's why i'm that's why i keep saying every every group that you are saying that has had that split that hasn't bounced back has not had as substantial a split and has bounced back is not has not anywhere close to the same percentage of the population and has bounced back and has not been in a system to uh where they are at a starting point following a great migration yeah i would disagree with that obviously but uh that's i think that's your opinion well there were more whites sold into slavery and during the atlantic slave trade than there were blacks so sure but i didn't i didn't say slavery i said the great migration the great migration from where to where the great migration was a time period between i'd say 1920 and 1973 where african-americans moved from uh most of the south where they did have where you said that they have much more land and they have now into many of the inner cities based on the actions of of the gem crow period okay so that would be that's called they were escaping the gem crow laws in the south not just the laws but the actions of the gem crow south the auctions right the actions of the dixie crab who later we know now we call the democratic party so they were escaping that so yeah i agree that they're they came to the north and my mother was one of them came to the north for a better opportunity uh in the industrialized north i think that was a mistake um i mean it wasn't i don't know if you can call it a mistake to be chased off of land but it did happen at the same time that i told you they migrated you say they were shaped they were forced off well a migration is in response to something so um opportunity yeah well not it wasn't it wasn't really opportunity it was fear it was it was literally fear well um i would disagree that that many people uh were you know the clan was uh by the 60s and um 70s uh the clan pretty much had lost its power and influence and we're not just talking about the clan um i mean the clan is the the boogie man that we like to point at but um the many of these actions that uh that i am talking about didn't really happen because of the clan but it was just because of the discomfort and fear created just based on the fact that the communities were so close to each other so um so we moved up north to where the rich white racist people are yes but but the differences um other than bull o'connor right yeah and then the big difference and that that's would be what would be the big difference the big difference is the south was openly um was openly was open about their racism whereas the north was a lot more covert about it which is why you would see that once african-americans moved into those neighborhoods the people that had enough money to be able to get out got out um the businesses that were able to outsource definitely outsource as soon as they moved in you can't say that that's all just because of racism i would also argue that that's because of how the time period shift but because all of that happened and african-americans ended up in those neighborhoods that affects statistics overall okay well yeah now i would argue that in the in the conversation that i conversations i have with atheists and liberals and conservatives um this this always comes out that the the statistical differences or disparities automatically means that there is discrimination well you would argue that it's because of past discrimination fine i'll grant you that there were past discriminational uh discrimination that led to disparities then that you agree with systemic racism because that well that's what if you that's how you want to define it then sure but well no but that's the definition of it no that's your definition okay there is no definition of of uh systemic racism there's as many definitions of the term as there are black liberals that and white liberals that promote such ideology not really like i said there's a difference why there's systemic there's a difference why they're systematic there's difference why there's institutional each one of these um and i'm i'm talking about how it's argued in schools not how it's argued from right critical race theory i know all about it i know all about it marco madel uh temple university i know all about his his argument uh and i think it's a bunch of a load of crap but uh so discrimination can certainly cause disparities i'm not arguing that that's not the case but tom his soul said this he said they will always be because of the history there will always be a disparity between what whites earn and what blacks earn the question is not whether or not we've caught up to the whites because we're never going to catch up to the whites because whites haven't stopped moving they will they won't stop moving long enough for blacks to catch up to where we could see those income inequalities those that gap that you're trying so hard to fill actually get smaller it's never going to get smaller because white people are going to keep working they're going to keep creating more and more wealth when they become millionaires uh when we become thousand years they'll become 10 000 years from me when when we become 10 000 years they'll be you know 100 000 years and so on maybe when we become millionaires they'll become billionaires and then you're arguing you're arguing in organic growth and this isn't organic growth there's a there's a very big reason why i'm not i'm not arguing that there's any growth what i'm saying that this is the the model for the growth the numbers i just threw out there arbitrarily what i'm saying is that they will always be a disparity because the group that had the head start is not going to slow down and long enough for you who had the slow start i hate when they do that demonstration every year it's not it's not going to be reflective of where the economy is or where that culture is as far as dealing with with this systemic racism sure but we're not just talking about whether there is a gap we're talking about what is widening the gap and what is creating um actual issues that i would even say affects the white uh the white community today um substantially that will actually even end up hurting the white community further down the line um more than i would say even especially immigrant populations but we'll definitely hurt whites and this this is why um over the years there have been a there has been a shift away from overt racism to um making decisions that on its surface does not seem based on race but when you look deeper into it it creates a way of separating the two races just just on its face um and one of the best examples of those would be how redlining was practiced not the not redlining itself but how people have used redlining so how this hurts um how this hurts whites um would be because there has been a shift to uh to value properties now far beyond what the property is worth in order to prevent certain populations from moving into certain areas um it has created a debt cycle that at this point will hurt uh people trying to move from one place to another just because the incomes don't match the property values now that that started because of racism no okay well yeah we'll talk about red lining uh redlining wasn't racist it was nothing no i'm not i'm not just saying it was racist i'm saying the reason how it was practiced ended up being more race than it itself it itself probably no i'm guessing because i can't think in the heads of whatever banker created redlining what his intention was but how it was done created a rift yeah so how it was allegedly done but what we talked about you talked about what widings the gap um and then you brought up you know things like redlining i would say things that widen that gap is promiscuity moral behaviors we can see the distinction between the morality of the blacks living in the 1900s black wall street and uh you know juneteenth is in the news now because trump wants to go to oklahoma that makes him a racist i guess those things not only hurt blacks but are starting to hurt whites as well as far as their uh economic success is concerned uh there was a uh i can't remember the name of the economist walter williams uh he said that there are three or four things that the numbers show the studies show that if you do these things you're less likely to live under the poverty line uh that is graduate from high school do not have children before you are married uh stay out of jail and get a job so those people the people of the people who do those things regardless of what race or creed or color or nationality or their experience in the past regardless of any of those distinctions those who do those four things those who do those four things that i mean are less likely to be under the poverty line or to be poor um so um when we talk about cause and effect in what widens the gap we see that it is more so so behaviors and culture than than it is any sort of uh law or policy uh in 1968 redlining was became illegal so even if you want to suggest that redlining was a something that was it was uh yes and no proportionally affected blacks um redlining based on race was definitely uh redlining overtly based on race was definitely stopped in the 60s but um the workaround was redlining based on uh i guess location and income status um was not really addressed until the late or the early 2000s so you would see that with more with the fair housing act is when they would really start going into how banking worked how loans worked um and that's when the whole overall aspect of redlining was addressed so it's it's fairly recent when all aspects of redlining was finally stopped um just saying hey you're black i'm not going to serve you yes that was stopped with the civil rights yeah well we can we can't determine even today someone's intention so uh we do know that well of course but we can determine the cause and effect and we can determine who was more negatively affected by it than someone else okay and to suggest that also i think of a major assumption is that these things these practices were white wide i would say i like to say that every white person was practicing these things these of this red line i never said every white person go ahead yeah but oftentimes we have policies if you look at even something like roe v wade uh or even something today we are recent like a george floyd oftentimes these revolutions come about through the um embellishment of an of a uh of a george floyd for example so even though the statistical anomaly is not there meaning there isn't practice world or police wide uh we still have these movements that come about with title seven for example the equal credit opportunity act and all of these other things it doesn't just because these acts are here it doesn't demonstrate or doesn't necessitate that these were practices throughout all of the kingdom the kingdom of america that is want to just quick mention that maybe in a few minutes we'll go into q and a but we'll give a chance from losar to respond and then at some point losar and jill if either of you is up for deferring to the other and it doesn't have to be now it can be you know like in several minutes or so in terms of deferring to the other having the last word otherwise at about maybe five minutes from now i'll bring us into the q and a so thanks for letting me jump in there guys oh yeah that's fine um i i'm and i'm trying to explain that that what i'm talking about and i'm just going to do an overall argument when people are talking about systemic uh racism and what they're saying is cause and effect um as i said before they are talking about how racial decisions over an entire time period will affect statistical statistics overall so if we are looking for um some sort of batman villainy i hate you because you're black and this is why i'm doing it you're not going to find but what you will find is because of um because of those decisions and the responses connected to it um african americans on every single aspect will have a uh will have a negative effect over any other group that was not negatively affected by it well what what you just described uh my uh brother are you a christian uh yes oh okay my brother what you just described was not systemic racism but systemic classism okay that's what you're describing now let me refer you to a study that was done in 1992 now it just so it because of the history of african americans they disproportionately over represent poor people in this country that doesn't mean that this is systemic racism okay so let me refer you to a study that in 1992 researchers at the federal reserve in boston came up with and they used 30 different variables related to lending decisions and found that virtually all decisions were explained by those variables not race variables like your credit score i gave up my black card in the 90s and my credit score has gone up since i've gotten rid of my black card so in fact this same study showed that black owned banks were lending more to whites and white owned businesses than they were black owned businesses is that systemic racism no because although discrimination can certainly cause statistical statistical differences they do not automatically mean discrimination okay um they're also you know when you talk about the gap that we need to extinguish i agree we do we do need to deal with that gap but not in a way that's going to determine in 20 years that we dealt with it here's how i deal with the gap i look at how many millionaires were in america back then and then i look at how many black millionaires were in america today i'm not going to look at bill gates when i compare the black millionaires to uh as far as whether or not blacks have overcome these uh the systemic racism from the past i'm going to look at how far they've come from where they started not comparing a millionaire to someone like bill gates when that person becomes like bill gates because more and more opportunities are coming to blacks by way of deferment of action by way of uh you know laws like the equal credit opportunity act and uh the the mortgage disclosure act of 1975 as more and more opportunities come they're going to progress but they're never going to catch bill gates when bill when we become bill gates it'll become something else other than bill gates and that's just the reality and when you look at it that way you don't come up with systemic racism but you come up with if anything classism well the which will always be you'll always have the poor jesus said the goal isn't to catch bill gates the goal is to the goal is to create a system or is to have is to explain why there's a system to where so many different people are are in one area and and are statistically higher at doing certain things than another now i'm not just talking about in finance i'm talking about also with crime if you if you look at crime for example um most crimes even murders are um crimes of human interaction based on whether or not uh whether there's a uh there's a problem uh personally between two people um statistically if you look at that and connect it to the black community the black community has a far more densely populated area based on the actions of the great migration so because you have far more interactions in the black community you're going to have far more chances for there to be violent crime because you have that number of interactions yeah and i think studies have been done which refute that um like the study that was done by harvard university called the equal opportunity project where rich blacks determine that rich blacks don't do as well as rich whites well you already said that you already said that um well two things about that study one is they really i think they did like 50 some odd blacks if i could find the study again they didn't do uh um an even close to a feasible number of of blacks in that study and they did pick and choose um the white so they they they the the whole study i think has been debunked multiple times because the way the study was ran i i got to refine that study again but i think that's why it was tossed out so many times okay well we do have a q and a pretty quick here okay okay let me just say this uh we we have several studies not just the the harvard university like the chris hogan study uh where you know did not dispel the myth that well there's systemic racism from the past and millionaires you know have parents who were millionaires and that's why they're successful uh that that study included a sub a sample of 10 000 so there's a 21 percent that study found of millionaires did not receive any inheritance at all so well yes and and the way chris hogan based his study was whether or not there was a transfer of millions to another person with millions what he did not implement what multiple people have questioned why he didn't place it in his study was why didn't chris why didn't chris hogan add in property values when he did uh when he did the value when he did value assessments for both sides and the and that that actually throws his study out the window because one of the largest um one of the largest percentages of millionaires recent millionaires come from real estate so black millionaires did not own land are we are we saying every black millionaire or i'm telling you the fact that most that that the devaluation of the black community as a whole versus the overvaluation of the white community as a whole has created both extensive amounts of debt in both communities and a high number of millionaires it's just land has been valued so high now that more and more millionaires are coming in based on real estate i see we this might be a good opportunity to jump into the qna so if that works for both of you gentlemen want to mention everybody both of the speakers i've put their links in the description so that way if you do want to hear more you can hear more from these guys as i know we're cutting it it's just uh about an hour of conversation so with that we are going to jump into this pretty quick i want to say first up helene g thanks for subscribing saw you pop up on the screen we're thrilled to have you be a part of the community and also a couple of quick channel announcements we are currently looking for i have a person reached out to me today saying that she wants to debate a feminist and she is actually critical of feminism or at least maybe contemporary feminism third wave and so if you happen to be a person who identifies with that position please feel free if you would like to debate shoot us an email at modern day debate at gmail dot com also we have a couple of people looking for people to debate from the anti natalism camp as well as the in cell community so those uh we'll see about what happens there that should be interesting if that happens super chats thanks for your super chat patreon comment from brian stevens who says question oh that's right he told me to erase that one sorry about that brian thanks and movie theory thanks for earlier we got we got super chats before that so sorry if you sent a super chat i'm a little behind mothra j disco thanks for your super chat said historically and culturally speaking native american population has never recovered as they were subjected to 200 plus years of genocide and erasing and i think that would be for you jill well yeah it depends on what you would say what you would define as recovered um so you know you could look at the atrocity and say they'll never recover from that some might say so it depends on what you mean by recovered i i certainly would not consider uh or most people would not consider the native american population is in such a dire stray as the black community is uh whether or not the statistics support that i i'm not sure gosh well um i i have saw multiple statistics or i'm sorry can i respond to that um i have seen multiple statistics showing that uh crime rates alcoholism drug use suicide rate um have all been exponentially higher in the native american population than uh than the overall average and is actually pretty close to african americans as a whole so it does affect them negatively and if you look at poverty rate um i think there's no i don't quote me on this i have to find the study but i think there are more there's more poverty in the native american community than it is in almost any other community like overall below the poverty rate the number of people below the poverty rate we can give you jill if you want a chance to respond you can as the super chat was originally for you otherwise we can move on the next one nothing about incarceration in any of these studies by the way nothing so we do still have to take into consideration that there are certain segments of the population that feel it's cool to to rob and steal because of what they listen to on bet which stands for blacks embarrassing themselves um so you don't see too many native americans doing behaving in such a fashion so that has to be taken into consideration when you talk about poverty and not so much systemic racism but systemic bad behavior next up nat roberts thanks for your super chat says i would like to know if jill is a white supremacist oh my god who said who gave that question i think it's nat roberts nat roberts all right um i i did a quick look up on that uh native americans have a crime rate over 2.5 times the national average some reservations reach 20 times the national average on the on the reservation yeah that's like that's you would have to compare that then to in the baltimore reservations i call them the democratic plantations i mean you can call it what you will but then you you will be admitting that because these people have been um moved into areas that no and then that's what the black president was the trail of tears all over again the trail of black tears is that what you the trail of tears was forced relocation um the great migration was a relocation based on fear i see so granted there wasn't a gun held to the back of our heads and moved us but we still moved based on a fear-based decision yeah yeah yeah many did many did many moved for opportunities we remember a good chance to move to the next super chat and uh if you want to respond to that one jill the last one asking if you're a white uh read tell her tell whoever said that to to read his bible and uh the answer is in the scriptures got christians christians cannot be uh anything but uh born again christians gotcha mothra j disco thanks for your super chat who says dixie kratz equal modern g.o.p. though what you said that i could take that on um i actually do uh to an extent yes that is very true and the reason why is because uh the democratic party has never been a solid democratic party even uh up until i would say probably about the late 70s there's always been a southern democratic party and a northern democratic party um the southern democratic party has split multiple times because they do not align with the ideas of the northern democratic party and they they split as a permanent group um in the nineteen either 64 or 68 election and once they split as a permanent group got rallied behind bull Connor they've lost complete faith in the democratic party and it's not all the democrats sent so they might not be full on republicans but they are definitely not democrats i think history i think history tells a different narrative that as the south became less racist and the g.o.p. became more uh aligned with you know certain moral uh uh states right yeah certain moral traditions the south the white south the tradition of the of the america uh the south became less racist and more favorable to the the g.o.p rather than the democratic party who had fallen into moral depravity ending in death what was it was it was one thing the death of unborn black babies it it no it was uh moved to the next one pretty soon just i think that i could be wrong i thought i interpreted this in that i might be totally off my rocker i thought they meant dixie crats equal modern g.o.p as in like regarding the alleged party switch i don't know if but yeah the big switch is the big lie it was no party there's accuracy to it um i just think what happens is whenever somebody talks about um the great party switch there's always an argument of oh well what politicians switched which is absolute nonsense because most politicians lost their seats during that time um the switch would be where each party stood and what is more important important to each part so the republican party was very large in government intervention since lincoln and after the i think either the nixon election i think yeah i think it's after a nixon um that's when the republican party started being more towards states rights um states rights also included the idea of whether or not a state could determine whether to enforce discrimination laws or not which moved a lot of more discriminant minded uh a discrimination minded uh whites into the republican party it's also why the south is deeply right now i just because the uh super chat i think was targeting jill i got to give him the last word if he wants it otherwise i've got to go to the next super chat yeah the the g.o.p still is into governor governor government intervention i don't know where this notion came from it's more progressive historical revisionism um if not ignorance uh just a matter of what they're going to intervene on was the it's the disparity not that they aren't interventionists they are roi uh roistigal thanks for your super chat says jill explain the school to prison pipeline and how it does not target black students and they put in parentheses because it actually does and they say and how that is not racism and then they said they'd like to hear from losar on this one as well yeah the school to prison pipeline is another myth of our a great myth of our society it doesn't exist uh the the idea is that these blacks are coming into the schools the public schools primarily and somehow winding up in jail well there's only a few people in we could blame in this pipeline we can blame the parents we can blame the schools the teachers and administrators and we can blame the child who's old enough to make rational decisions at at some point we have to say uh so the idea that these kids are coming into the school and coming out uh has to be in going to jail can be addressed with other interventions other than we need to stop being such bad people or racist like school choice for example which the democratic party is against and then we'll give a little start chance to respond as well um he neglected to uh to point out an extra thing that you can blame and that is environment um the fact that there are uh and i keep going to the same thing the fact that there is an environment where so many people of different uh well okay unlike again the white community as a whole because there are such entrenched communities with so many different people of all different stripes um you're gonna have more uh more people with uh social issues interacting with people that don't have social issues in a certain community so because because you have so many people in a small community or in a small area with social issues you're gonna have more and more negative interactions with both schools and uh with both schools and uh and policing overall so it's a self it's what i'm saying is it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because so let's let's hold on just to let Losar finish for sure i'm sorry i talk a lot i apologize um so since there are since there are so many people in that area based on the actions of what i would argue systemic racism a school to prison pipeline has been created that would not be created in the white community because there's far more uh there's far more ways to address these major issues in social psychological and physical differences in white kids and in white kids gotta move yeah so let's do let's have them choose yeah let's have them choose school choice you want to change their environment let them choose which schools they go to that'll change their environment so talk about doesn't that wait wait that would that would be a a significant argument if the only place where the interactions happened was in school but the neighborhood as a whole is a problem so the way that you would have to get them out is to get them out of the neighborhood not just out of the school yeah if we can move on the choice is one of those ways down too much yeah education is one of those ways that's how you get out of the hood all right one of those ways yes but not that's how you get out so that's what we need to start it's not the biggest choice give parents a choice give parents in the hood a choice and where they send their children in charter schools which may at the Blasio is against more private schools let them go to schools out of their district and hopefully and i think that would definitely turn the tide close that gap like you like to talk about i mean possibly but not sorry go ahead go ahead i'm sorry all inequality is not explainable by racism basically by racism no by systemic racism by systemic racism we'll move forward thanks all over cat well appreciate your super chat and also thanks so much i think it's daniel lucas if i'm reading this right daniel lucas thanks for subscribing just saw that and also all over cat well said in cameroon an elderly pastor would not let me carry his bags because it was quote unacceptable unquote to have a white man carry for him this is a global issue is that directed at me yeah i think it would be directed at jill i'm not i think so yeah as he's saying racism is a global problem the only i think yeah i think i think he's saying that racism is a global issue yeah i mean i would call it sin i wouldn't call it you know racism and per se but uh you know i would always tell my students that you guys fight over everything if there were no race and i think this is this has to do with my world view and and that we're all born in sin and shaped in iniquity therefore we're all in need of a savior and that saviors jesus christ uh if they were only tall and short people and that was the only distinction there would be a tall versus short war world war one in world war two the the revenge of the distilment you know something like that that's what we would see in our culture if that was the only distinction so i i think that that is more indicative of our fallen nature than any you know systemic uh you know problem that's a systemic problem sin can i respond to that um if not it's fine i can like um but what we are talking about is what what is happening we can we can go into what might happen if this happened or what might not happen if this doesn't exist but what actually did happen was there was a system especially in cameroon but heck as across africa as a whole to where um it was acceptable to separate people's social status based on race that that's an undeniable argument so because there was a separation based on race of who is considered powerful who is considered great who is considered not um that has socially psychologically and physically affect and financially affected africa as a whole in a way that even after independence they're going to have to deal with the issues that are created because of those racial decisions decisions one good example of that would be um rwanda because neither tribe in rwanda existed when that when that massacre happened prior to the dutch the dutch created that rift so everything created from racism is uh affects the actions of today there was no tootsie there was no who to before the dutch the dutch created that split and because they created that split all effects afterwards are based on racism we're gonna jump to the next question movie theory thanks for your question this is uh from the standard question list we're gonna move through as quick as we can they asked uh let's see asked the debaters would they both say any race can be racist i think this is probably the idea of like can white people be race or what is it i think they're saying um go ahead and thank you any and i i i can only answer it this way any race can be racist but right now because of the power difference only one race can enact racism if that makes any sense gotcha oh the white man gave me a crack rock so that means i had to smoke it seems to be the argument uh so the fact that the the dutch came in and caused a dissension between the two brown groups uh doesn't mean they have to allow that to happen so it still happens to be from a christian perspective and a question of moral depravity and uh we could see that even in the black community although they had real systemic racism systematic racism institutional racism they're all the same thing i know you have distinctions that you've made even though they had that they had morality so they were able to overcome those just those uh discriminational those discriminate discriminatory laws today they can't overcome without the discriminatory laws because the family has been disjointed well wait that that i'm sorry because that is based off of an idea that does not coincide with any christian nation ever um christian nation yeah well you're saying that it's because of of of morality and everything else and i understand that what does that christian nation have to do with anything but what i'm saying is even under christian even under the argument that you are making no no i'm not making you had anything to do with being a christian nation no what i'm i'm saying that it had to do with morality and behavior and the consequences to cause and effects you talked about and my and my response to that is that even though you can claim that personal responsibility plays major into it which yes personal responsibility does play major into it cause and effect cannot be tossed out of the window just by saying personal personal responsibility um there are going to be actions and there's going to be reactions to those actions we cannot dictate how those reactions are but we can look throughout history and realize that there is no time in history where there has not been a certain type of action responded with a certain type of reaction i mean we no religion can push that away no argument of morality can push that away humanity is humanity and humanity will react to anything negative in a negative way it's just how the world works so we can we can throw out personal responsibility and we could throw out religion to we're blue in the face but at the end of the day um negative things will create a negative reaction but let's go all the way back to the first negative reaction when kane killed abel i mean how far back do you want to go to whereby today the number one cause of preventable death for young black men is homicide how far back do you want to go how long will it take for those things to to be overcome overcome that's my question um probably the same thing that points out that the number one cause of preventable death in the white community is suicide no it's actually accidents like car accidents or drowning no um i think it's suicide i think suicide took it over in 2018 i believe hold on no maybe 2020 2018 uh the number one i think cause of death of white men is still accidents but yeah that's that's certainly climbing in the direction of uh another preventable cause of death um because of the dedication of our moral a moral society which we once were just look at the 1950s and look at the the representation of families that we have on just on the tv screen well i mean you're you're talking about the 1950s but the 1950s also had most of our young white men fighting in the korean war i think we're not most of it but enough of it to affect life or to affect uh statistics involving suicides and homicides there's a war happening during that time right i think uh i do have to just because i think the question was originally for losar i want to give him the last word and then uh movie theory thanks for your other question movie theory is active today with a lot of questions uh ask if both speakers love white people i love all people but i know this is a jlp thing so yes i love white people yeah i i would say i love white people um you know they've overcome some things as well like like the wars right the thousands hundreds of thousands millions of lives that they've lost in the war but one thing they've kept consistent throughout all of these things that affect cultures like the things that affect the black culture like war is the morality and not that they're losing that they're starting to lose they're starting to see the same numbers in the black community you're starting to see that come to fruition in the white neighborhoods as well unfortunately and i'll i'll toss out the morality argument because i've literally given you an argument that during the time where quote unquote families were at their most moral between 1900 and 1930 when we're talking about marriage rates and uh and i guess church intervention and our involvement and everything else was the highest crime rate at with the exception of like i think either the 70s or the 90s in american history because even if they have a moral standing there are things happening around them that affect crime overall yeah but you're looking at statistics that have uh you have to play into consideration the the era of the mob uh into that the mob has now morphed into more white collar type of crimes uh as opposed to the shoot them up uh you know type of strong arm types that they had back then so you have to take that into consideration as well most normal people were not violent and criminals and would never loot um a store because someone that looked like them were killed these are not oh that's that's not true at all that these are not your these are not your politicians losar the last word just because the question was originally for him and then we got to move out on the next one um that's not true at all if you look at the haymarket riots if you look at the battle of blare mountain if you look at the chicago riot if you look at the new york riots if you look at many of these riots that happened to prior to the black community being in these areas um many of these riots happened because somebody in the white community was killed especially when it comes to interactions with the police and we're talking about riots that make the riots today look almost peaceful so that's absolutely not true super chat just flew in from mothra j disco who says capitalism is the breeding ground for racism uh they didn't direct who was for if both of you want to mention something in response to this you can um i completely disagree i think racism is the breeding ground for racism i think i think it's just the fact that humans are designed from the beginning to to fear something that they don't understand until they understand and one of the biggest indicators of something that they don't understand would be the color of someone's skin but that's also why as we grow we challenge ourselves to get out of the idea that we would have had if we were children a lot of people don't do that gotcha and lugam thanks for your question oh so sorry jill i didn't give you a chance if you want to respond to the last one you can uh if it's short pity just because we i want to get through maybe one or two more questions really quick yeah well yeah i would uh i would think that there is capitalism is actually fosters independence and independent uh our responsibility of the individual which would help as far as morality is concerned and not not hurt it and we need to do better with morality in our country culture and get back to the bible get back to god in the bible last question i think we can ask is lugam thanks for your question says american women have the highest rate of completing college explain the systemic racism here i didn't know is that true i've never heard that's that it's interesting i don't know if that's systemic racism of course not because it has nothing to do with race but that's a great point uh women are statistically overrepresented and college and masters and doctoral degrees and yes but that i i i wasn't able to finish but that has a lot more to do with how a college is structured than whether or not um whether or not there is a separation based on any statistical uh any any actions that are that has been said in place to create a rift so for example um men are more likely to learn and grow based on hands-on approaches actually doing what something is and and studying things as their attention is focused on it where women are then again this is more likely this isn't overall and i'm probably going to make a lot of people mad saying this um women are on average um better able to learn in a structured um book and paper environment gotcha and what we can do is with that we want to say thanks so much everybody for hanging out with us today want to mention i've put both of the links for our speakers in the description box if you would like to hear more from them and want to say thanks so much for hanging out with us folks it's always fun as we had mentioned tomorrow we will have that debate in the afternoon on whether or not there is but we're kind of like a interesting doubleheader tomorrow completely different topics one on evolution and then one on like i said the whether or not the confederate statues ought to be taken down so we hope to see you next time folks but we want to just give one last final and huge thanks to our speakers for being here with us today as this has been a really enjoyable debate really appreciate you guys coming on losar and jill thanks for being with us today thanks for having me james um yeah thank thank you uh yeah thanks for giving me this opportunity i i did not expect for you to even uh reach out to me when i made my joking comment but thank you again for having me on we're glad to have you glad to have you guys back anytime and also last super chat ft just fired this one in it said the breeding ground for racism is also human psychology so appreciate that i don't know if that if you guys either of you guys would necessarily disagree with that you could if you want to say something you can but up to you say that what was it what was that they said the breeding ground for racism is also human psychology oh i wouldn't i wouldn't say psychology as much as sociology so for example if you look at um if you look at children who have not had outside uh outside factors factored in they wouldn't even recognize race until um something has said hey do you recognize race then they would go okay there's race here but um i think overall uh i think it's more how they respond to the social aspects of the world as old as it is just the psychological aspect gotcha and with that want to say thanks again folks for hanging out with us it's always a pleasure hope you keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and have a great rest of your saturday or sunday depending on where you are