 But I'm here not as an early child educator my career has been Exclusively in special education, and I'm a late comer. I'm a late convert to to the early years And I'll tell you why I became a late convert So this is me at kindergarten half day I know what you're thinking clearly a child prodigy Actually that look of terror is well-founded because I just met my first nun a few minutes before that picture is taken But I've worked in the system. I thought this is being videotaped sorry sisters of mercy Again, I apologize again But I've worked in the system for 38 years that pushed for early identification and intervention in the hope that we're going to help children Catch up but speckhead sees early identification as somewhere around age nine or ten These kids start to surface around kindergarten a great one and the teachers as well, you know, let's see how they do Let's just watch and see how they go how they develop give them time and then they said well Yeah, maybe he does have a weakness Let's start a pre referral process of documenting some help and then they refer for an assessment And then they get an assessment after about a year wait list and by the time nine or even ten years of age The child is died. No sir identified with whatever and we start the process of helping that child catch up Well, I'm here to tell you that in 38 years. I've seen very few children catch up. Yes, some are yes We've gotten better at transitioning some of these students into and through post-secondary But for the most part speckhead is a one-way road once you come off that regular curriculum once you come out of the regular class and Start requiring individualized support. There's very few roads back to the to the to the very good curriculum So in about 2010 I met Jane Bertrand and we jokingly tell the story What happens when a special educator and an early child educator meet in the bar? One of the two will say very quickly. Oh my god, you were the sole threat to long-term employment for me And I became really fascinated with the research on the early years from the perspective of a special education teacher I was my my Paul on the road to the mascus moment meeting Jane Bertrand And I was involved at the time with a prep foundation Which is a philanthropic foundation in Newfoundland and partnered with the McCain Foundation to push out Better public policy around early the early years at that point the early years report came out in 2010 And Newfoundland had porous model of early years in the country and in about 2015 we We developed integrated governance of our early years and that was a huge game-changer Getting all the people in the same tent and forcing them to talk together and plan together was an absolute game-changer for us Then a couple years later. We announced full-day kindergarten huge backlash to that one when they came out We're going to ruin education by by forcing all those poor five-year-olds to be in school for a full day Huge outcry. I could not go to a cocktail party without being attacked And then the day after full-day kindergarten started everybody loved it Everyone was on the road to the mascus when that happens And then right after that about in 2017. I was appointed to the previous task force on improving educational outcomes Newfoundland struggles with his education model and the premier wanted a task force to look at a whole host of different things three of which were inclusive education Student mental health and the early years and I was given the easy three files to write other that Other that report came the overwhelming realization that if you want a conversation on improving any Outcome in education you have to start talking about the early years It has to be foundational to the conversations. We recommended junior kindergarten, which is about to be phased in we We recommended opening up the schools act to redefine the student to allow us to start to allow the neighborhood school to start offering before and after school after hours programming we Recognize that a community's biggest resource in meeting the needs of young families is the neighborhood school and Building on that infrastructure building on that capacity Strengthening the relationship between that school and those families will address the needs much more effectively They try to replicate duplicate and create other systems of care so So that task force and the research that I came across During the password got me really interested as a researcher into what is the exact nature of ECE in preventing special education So we came up with four research questions, which are here on the board Basically, can we prevent special education for some kids and for those kids who have an exceptionality? Can we lessen the amount of support they're going to require further down the road? And what what's the data say about that so we went into the data and across the province is looking for information So the first question is what's the context? Well, the two disciplines of ECE and spec ad have a remarkably similar Process, I mean we both look, you know, just demand for both There's both conversations around quality certainly in the the earlier sector Trichlin frameworks have become increasingly central to defining what is quality and applaud you on Launching yours today the rise of play-based pedagogy and the popularity of that what we're seeing in education is when When we introduced play Play in the kindergarten we're now seeing play creeping its way up into the higher grades We're seeing grade one grade two grade three teachers Saying but they can do that. Why can't we do it? And that's happening and of course the professionalization of both sectors continues to be a concern the difference with With the spec ad of course is that you and rights legislation Mandated the inclusion of all children, right? So we get universal access for spec ad kids on the human rights legislation Unless there are less than five years of age and it was an issue Well, that's too much. We've also but for the most part as I said, we remain awake to fail model But there's been a big shift in special education, which is really central to my argument The special education first started in the 60s in the 70s most of the children Receiving our supports were there because of intellectual disabilities physical disabilities genetic disabilities, etc due to poor maternal health and You know a lot of issues that we've since realized and and have successfully addressed And of course low socioeconomic status continues to dominate special ed now. However when you look across The vast majority of kids are in special education are there because of lags in literacy numeracy and writing language delays delays and emotional behavior problems When you look across Looking for the numbers. We see that about 13 percent 13 to 15 percent of the population Are enrolled of the school population are enrolled in special education 60% are there for those three areas. These are the areas that now are much more malleable to the benefits of early child education Looking across the country. We asked all the provinces for numbers We got numbers from most provinces We quickly discovered you can't compare the numbers in Canada because the provinces simply don't keep the same data They don't collect the same data in the same way the diagnostic criteria are radically different Some provinces are moving away from categorizing kids and have non categorical models some provinces have really strong categorical models and some provinces have categorical models and a Category for excuse me category for children who are not categorized. So when you start comparing numbers, it's a It's a dog's breakfast But if you look at BC that the number of Students in spec ed you have about 30 percent of your kids are there because of learning disabilities 23% are there because of behavior issues. I did not get speech language issues in my request I'm not sure if you record them under spec ed. I suspect not in Newfoundland. We're a much more familiar You see that those trends that we talked about a few minutes ago They're standing up across the problems is the vast majority are there for highly treatable areas so can we reduce Can easy reduce a spec ed Well, we have 60 years of longitude and a data on Early years and when you start looking at all of these studies you start seeing trends emerge You start seeing the same thing again and again and again The boosts are in literacy and math language social emotional skills Low SES kids are the most impacted Some of these studies actually commented to various degrees that it can lower spec ed cost And most of them as Craig alluded to this morning most of them talked about the cost benefits So the intersection the research is the intersection between our two disciplines the benefits of ECE are the exact same reasons Why kids are in spec ed right if we're boosting these kids then there's an impact down the road There's been great interest Ted Craig's not the only person who's interested in looking at these longer to know studies as a collective in the US in 2017 a group looked at 22 of these studies and what they found was that you can they said that you can reduce special education by at least 8% That you can improve grade retention by 8.29 percent and increase high school Graduation by over 12% because the very things that ECE focuses on are the things that Prevent or that causes kids to land in SES. What's important here is that they're looking at studies that are older Right, so the number the impacts that the amount lowering seems low 8% does not seem to be a lot I was a fortune, but in the next few slides. I'm going to start talking about some more modern studies Craig's Study was really interesting because They're ready for life study because he talks about the cost benefit and if you consider who's in special education Yes, you know if we invest more in the early years We can lower the cost of spec Ed, but to return an investment across these children's lives is profound There are few kids in spec Ed graduate very few kids go on to post secondary the impact of them financially is significant across their lifespan Couple weeks ago this presentation was done and lo and behold another group this time in Europe Start to look at the European longitudinal studies. They felt that ECE in Europe is much more a universal they have different broad set of kids in there in Enrolled and they wanted to see whether or not the findings the boosts that we're seeing in American studies holds up in the European context So 17 studies nine countries 1600 kids 60% of these studies only track to the end of elementary But what they found was the exact same thing that is being found in American studies that language literacy and math is the biggest boost and that there's no fade that these boosts do not date over time and They spoke to the need the policy implications of this They also spoke to the need for professional development to make sure this happens The largest longitudinal study is perhaps the epi data set which many of you are familiar Tevolution a whole bunch in the UK track 3000 students beginning in 1997 Huge data set that's still in existence. It's been extensively reported on and there's been a number of follow-up studies They came out of that and again They found that students with two years of high quality ECE had the gains that you see there language literacy Self-regulation social skills post-secondary participation on and on you've heard them all about now But the epicenter the episode study was significant because it was the first time they really spoke to the difference between Low quality ECE and high quality ECE They found that you know all kids benefit, but the boosts for kids with high quality is much more significant They also commented that and they looked at two years So there's a dose and quality a two-year dose and the high quality you get a big impact They also commented that kids who had additional ECE prior to age four had an even bigger bigger gap a bigger gain One of the follow-up studies on the epi debt data set was a study called the etson study the early years Transition and special needs they looked at kids with speck ed Issues and they compared the kids who did had your home stayed stay at home kids who had no Exposure to ECE with kids who had two years and the impact was significant 51% of kids of home kids were at risk for cognitive development Whereas 21% if they had two years experience 44% of home kids were at risk for reading compared to 23% 51% at risk for social struggles compared to 21% for those who had two years quality So a second in-depth look at the epi study Start to pick apart even further I should say that there was a third study done on the epi data set and attracted kids. This was into grade two But they the second study tracked the kids in the grade five And I didn't report that here because that's third study story That study looked to see what factors can predict special education needs And they came up with all kinds of things like birth weight mother's education level socioeconomic status of the home and and including in moment in the in the early years And I'm gonna come back to the etson study later In Ontario as we speak there is a longitudinal study going on that takes what we mean by quality up a notch So they are as you know, Ontario start to phase in The full day kindergarten and and junior kindergarten allowing a control group So Jan Peltier and her team start to track the kids who had the two years experience Compared to the kids who did not have them and she's trapped them through now to I think grade five Jane great five great six great six now Six hundred students very diverse groups of kids very you know, economic or very ethnically diverse and economically diverse and The other thing about the thing about taking quality up a notch is that These children are in the same classroom in a mixed ability group four and five year olds with a kindergarten teacher and a Trained early child educator who have a mandate to collaborate and they hold the kids for two years So at the end of those two years that Instructional team really knows the child and really knows their families What Jan found was that what Jan found up to in grade three full day kindergarten Significantly higher in all areas again same thing coming coming through also a high in number not Number knowledge and ready She also found a very important thing that these kids because they were in the school with wraparound services before and after school in the same site In there and she interviewed all the kids the kids who had the stable site Spent most of their time talking about play the kids who had to change sites Spent most of their time talking about who got them where? Right, they were in survival mode. They spent most of their day in coping mode around how I got there How I got there who brought me what who was late and spent very little time talking about play, right? Because they were in a stressed environment and Of course what we're fine is the ECE and full day kindergarten teachers are increasingly learning to be more collaborative so We were really interested in that in all of these studies say the same thing for the most part But we wanted to go back back to the epi data set Which is still in existence and back to to Peltier study and say dig deeper look You know for a take a closer look We asked a militia to take it right through the high school graduation Instead of asking which kids got referred we wanted to ask which kids are at risk for referral It's now with models of inclusion and with different policy and funding There's all kinds of hidden bias around whether or not a child will be referred if there's programs That carry extra money. There's going to be more children refer to it If you have a teacher or a program or school that is highly inclusive They're going to refer less kids to speck it So we wanted to measure which kids are at risk of special education needs if they are more than one standard deviation from the mean in a multiple the multiple domains and What we found was really interesting. I should say that these articles these two studies will be published shortly Epi went back and from birth to high school graduation the kids who had low quality early learning 36% reduction in cognitive risk at age five compared to those with high quality 45% reduction and It held right through all of the other multiple the other indicators as well 40% reduction in risk for cognitive risk by age 16 55% reduction in cognitive risk by the by age 16 Stir powerful numbers and if you listen to Craig like if these are high numbers take the lowest number and it's still very impressive right He he they tracked for social behavioral risk as well But there's a problem with how they measured social emotional risk in that they used teacher checklist And they found that they were very subjective and one of the things that was happening with the kids who had the highest risk for Behavioral issues they start to disappear as they moved into the higher grades They start to drop out right or be reassigned from the school But the epic data say is is was very very powerful malicious article on this will be released soon It is an appraising south it is in our report and is accessible as well So we asked Jan to do the same thing In Ontario John Peltier in Ontario go back and look at which kids are more than one standard deviation From the mean in self-regulation vocabulary in reading What she found was kids with half day kindergarten were three times more likely Than kids with the two years experience to be more than one standard deviation Right three years in self-regulation Self-regulation is huge in behavior management as you well know if a child can't regulate their behavior They are going to be a challenge in the school and they are going to be at profound risk for mental health issues one of the issues that we had in Newfoundland that came about with with Integrated governance was that we realized that we had it to start embedding social emotional learnings in our curriculum frameworks And start training our kindergarten teachers to do the same and we quickly realized wait now hold on Where are the early child educators? Why are we not focused on embedding social emotional learnings in the curriculum frameworks for the early early years and training our early Child educators if we do a good job on training them We don't need to train the primary and elementary ones near as much as Ted said this morning It's much easier to cause a problem before it manifests solve a problem before it manifests and try to address one after Vocabulary half-day kids were one and a half times more likely than full-day kids than the full-time kids to be more than one standard Deviation and reading they were twice as likely Stark numbers from very current ongoing studies So what we see to the answer to our first question really is that we have multiple evidence Multiple lines of evidence from multiple sources and the preemptive nature. In fact, we get an overwhelming message that we can Prevent special education. How much? Well, that depends on the wall way And the Ontario study I keep plugging the Ontario study that this study is Vital for us to keep tracking these kids to see the impact of such high quality ECE on on these kids development because well, you all know what's going on in Ontario and that's probably at risk of being cut So I'm constantly plugging that So let's move on to the second question. What about the kids who have exceptionalities and When we know that those kids, you know, what's the what's the impact for them if they are in early child education? Well first we asked looked across the country looking for numbers trying to quantify how many kids how inclusive the early year sector was and Same issue the provinces do not collect the same data at the same time the same way So comparing numbers is almost impossible Three Atlantic provinces collect the data in the same way because they work collaboratively coincidentally on Defining how to collect their data. So we know that you know about third of the kids in Newfoundland are in early child Regulated space, but very few of those children are there with Exceptionalities and that that stands up across the country many reasons for this many reasons for this Diagnostic nature of you know, many children aren't yet diagnosed some are in the process of being diagnosed Whole debate on whether or not we need to diagnose children is also there But we know from the international literature that you know OECD says about 25% of children with Exceptionalities have access to To early learning centers. We also know there's studies out that show that children with Exceptionalities are a huge risk for being expelled from early learning centers Autism kids which I'm going to speak to in a second in particular kids with behavioral challenges are Often out as well all of the provinces have inclusive policies for the early years every one of them read those policies stellar policies practice is a different story and in large part because Extra needs means extra hands. It's a HR issue and it's a training issue that quickly emerges. It's not that they don't want these children there is a Accommodating them can be a challenge the federal bilateral agreements actually prioritizes making ECE More inclusive, right? So I call the early years as the last frontier of inclusive education is the last area that we really need to start doing research We need to start looking at practice not policy to make sure that these centers are increasingly accessible The early child education report 2017 that started in 2010 looking at Monitoring quality ECE across the country one of those benchmarks Calls for funding to be conditional and including children with special needs That benchmark has hardly moved since monitoring began It's met by only two provinces and it's partially met by three So the vast majority of the country has has not responded to that benchmark Reflecting what we already know the ECE sector is not that inclusive for children with special needs Yes, there are challenges. Yes, there are limitations Yes, it's hard work, but we know from all of the research on inclusive education in the primary Dominate by research in the primary grades. There's many many benefits for children for families for parents And for educators to have inclusive environments and the pros and the cons should balance out at the end of the day Yes, it's hard to work, but it's so important. We should be trying we should be moving towards it families in particular the financial strain on families young families with a child with exceptionalities is profound Profound especially they have a child with complex needs and it's maternal employment that gets to hit the hits Dad doesn't take their time off work. Mom has to take time off work Mom has to give up her job because she can't find placements for her kids and The impact of that is significant So this group there's growing research, you know for Continuity of learning here if we can establish homeschool relationships early for these children with complex needs There's a payoff down the road if we can get to know these families earn the families trust Establish communication with them. It's a lot easier when they come to the school system If teams are established early if you speak to these families now and look at their schedule There are a whole list of people who are involved in their lives and scheduling some nightmare And there's all kinds of relationships that change by the hour as a practitioner's change So we can afford it establish better interprofessional teams early on that tracks the kid as they move forward It will be easier when they hit the school system The irony is that many young many early child educators are increasingly doing a good job and documenting the needs of children What works what doesn't work how to support this family? They send that package on to the school and more often than not the school says, oh, God love you Thank you very much, but I'm gonna form my own opinion. I'm gonna wait and see right Let's give him some time and it's not looked at it's not reviewed Even even in my experience even professional support plans coming from speech therapists or red Sykes or physiotherapists That's not looked at in Newfoundland if they're followed by a speech language Therapist in the zero to five age range that therapist stops their work at the fifth birthday Transitions the child to a school based speech language pathologist Right and it all starts again with a new wait list and that's increasingly reflective across disciplines and across practices The bottom line here. I think is that if these children Can have supports identified in a place earlier when they land in kindergarten They're gonna have a radically different experience. We can be proactive around program planning and It's interesting the OECD and with integrated governance is a real opportunity for this to occur If they're all in one tent we can really good at transition planning We can be really good at sharing and program development and whatnot But OECD did a study on this in 2018 2017 and what we found was that integrated governance alone is no guarantee That collaboration is going to occur That happened in Newfoundland. We housed them in the same corner of the building But they didn't collaborate until the task force came along and made a whole series of recommendations that they had to start Collaborating and the difference is stark the difference in effectiveness is pronounced We need continuity of programs Continuity of policy training and pedagogy We need to start looking if we're if we're doing professional learning for early child educators or for kindergarten teachers We need we doing that collaboratively We need to get these people together and start trying training them collaboratively so they can start sharing their skill sets and That's part of reason why we need to keep the study in Ontario going So we took an in-depth look at autism without question kids with autism are the most challenging kids To program for young kids in the school system. They're resource heavy and they are fairly intensive We know that one in six children in Canada will develop or will have autism We know that rate is going up most school systems. This is no news. We live this every single day 56% of these children are diagnosed during the early years and 75% by the end of primary school so these kids are being identified during the very years. We're talking about right We also know that the Preferred the evidence-based interventions for these children are programs such as ABA and Jasper Which really focuses on developing the child's communication ability settling their Sensory needs and settling addressing their sensory needs and settling disruptive behaviors, right? That's the intention of those programs We look across the country. There is profound variation in the models of early support and access for For children with autism during the early years. We see families actually move provinces to access service Autism parents of autistic kids are become the most mobile families out there who literally have to hop Provinces trying to get different supports for the young kids These kids most of these kids in the K to 12 system or in the earlier system These are the kids who are sent home most often the school system will literally call and say come take him and The parents is like can't I'm working too bad. You have to come and take him, right? I rail against that I absolutely rail against that Sending a child with autism home is because of their behaviors is the exact same thing as your eye landing in the Emergency room and the doctor saying oh my god. Yes, you're sick, but you're too sick for me. Go home get a bit better and then come back We cannot shirk our responsibility to meet the needs of these kids. It's complicated It's complicated. It requires additional resources. It requires additional training absolutely, but we cannot say Taking home. It's against the schools act No one has the authority except the minister to send the child home, right? If I'm an early learning program or from a grade 7 program, right? That's a pet peeve of mine We also know the financial impact of on these families and I say they're the special mothers And this is an area rich for research Supporting kids on the spectrum in the early-year centers is a huge area of critical importance. Let's look at we also look at mental health right Because mental health has become so topical Right, it's it's it's a great concern across the country and rightly so We see there's a rapid rise in student mental health concerns, but trends are difficult to identify It's difficult to quantify how much mental health is up Across the country because of data collection and one and also because DSM five diagnostic statistical manual five Completely redefined what it means, but for many of these much of the diagnostic criteria was radically changed about ten years ago So tracking Trends as difficult We did look at one point I looked at the pharmaceutical rates and that's where you see an increase the rates of Pharmaceuticals assigned or prescribed for mental health issues in young children. Those numbers are up Overall though, we know about 10 to 25 percent of young children are impacted at some point with and with a mental health issue Most of them go unaddressed for many reasons biggest one being access to service second biggest one being stigma And transitions raises this the stress of these children, we know that Jan Pellche show that in their Ontario study disrupted Disruptive or inconsistent unstable early-year programs is extremely stressful for children We know as well that the mental health of the early child educator is critical There are studies out of the show that as the stress level of the early child educator rises the stress level of the child rises right, there's a perfect correlation and We also know as Ted said this morning Once these maladaptive behaviors are unchanged. They are really difficult to redirect right so the big thing for me around the the mental health what the research says is that The three big boosts that come out of quality ECE is language Social skills and self-regulation those are the knock of the factors against mental health If a child has the ability to express themselves to talk about their feelings to understand and interact and converse with those around them if a child can form and maintain Relationships with peers and with others and interact in a socially appropriate way and if a child has the ability to Regulate their behaviors and emotions. They are at Significantly reduced risk for mental health issues Especially for children who are at most risk especially for the children who are raising chaotic homes around stable homes or impoverished I want to speak for a second on the importance of early curriculum frameworks and I mentioned I'm really pleased to see To see that you've just launched yours which I have a copy of which I will be reading on the plane tomorrow on the way home And if I have any concerns, I'll email when I get home My guests without even opening the cover my guests be looking at curriculum frameworks across the country My guess is that it does not go deep enough around social emotional learnings And it does not go pragmatic enough around social emotional learnings that having cracked the cover report So this is just my guess because that's what's happening in other frameworks. We know that we need explicit social emotional learnings Embedded strongly in the curriculum. We need educators strongly trained on how to deliver that and a good response of teaching and We know that the training to meet those outcomes has to be ongoing and sustained and it has to be linked with the K-12 curriculum that that continuity of pedagogy and program is Absolutely essential for social emotional learning these kids need to be need to have the same skills reinforced over and over again as Play occurs in special education the way we teach social emotional learning is that we do role plays Right, so we sit down with an eight-year-old. Okay, Johnny. Let's role play The way early child educators teach social emotional learning is that they reinforce it as it happens When Johnny and Betty are having a conflict or when Johnny is having a struggle the early child educator uses that struggle to reinforce Right and to teach and if this continuity around training and and outcomes then it's a reinforced again and again and again And if it's done well during the early years the need to do it in the higher grades Starts to drop off. It's the kids develop the skills And if I'm wrong in your curriculum frameworks, and if you've done an exceptionally good job on social emotional learnings I will email and congratulate you Play-based pedagogy is also critical to the mental health of children because it reinforces the natural interactions of children as They happen as they interact with one another right It pushes out emotional regulation It pushes out physical development physical development is a big issue if there's any occupational therapists in the room You're gonna say yep. Yep. Yep for any minus an occupational therapist And she used to say she says five years ago Children used to skip into my room and it took me two days to teach them how to ride a bike now It takes me a week to teach them how to skip Because play has changed so much right the motor-developing children is not occurring and there's all kinds of Issues coming out that including sensory issues Play facilitates higher cognitive processes is great of creativity a desire to belong It's interesting to see the power of play in an element in an element primary school that just implemented full day kindergarten will play based The teachers literally looked into the classroom about oh my god. Thank God. I'm not teaching in there and Then a couple months later. They see all the kids coming from the playground with their leaves or the rocks or the trees laughing going back to do and I Want to do that. Why can't I take my kids out on the playground? Why can't why do I have to stay in? So where's we when full day kindergarten started the backlash was we're schoolifying early childcare But what we're discovering is that we're playing fine We're playifying education and the impact is significant and it's most significant in these issues so over the years you know that Free play has declined and mental health has increased. There is a correlation. There's a perfect correlation here So conclusions so again Multiple lines of evidence. We feel that children with special education needs who will always need support can have a radically easier Transition to school if we start earlier Families of these kids can have a radically different experience. We can form Stronger relationships with the ones who are most difficult to engage. We can earn their trust Right most most parents of special education kids will say it's always about Every September I have to go back to battle back to war for getting the supports of my child We should not need to do that. Don't we what we know? the early re-engaged the better and The impact is undeniable and mental health and behavior regulation So we started this With a need to create a shared lens to look you know at the early years from the perspective of both an early child Educator and a special educator. I think where we're ending up is the need for greater collaborative focus on inclusion Right, we need to look at at we need more research in many of these areas This is an area like the research in the early years and the research and special ed has been completely separate over the years We need to start bringing some of that together We need to start looking at practice portfolios IPPs individual plans following these kids through right business early child educator will tell you What works and what doesn't work kindergarten teacher should be listening to that and they should know it well in advance Professional learning as I mentioned earlier. We need to look at at Collaborative professional development between the two sectors and allowing them to train one another And policy that ensures inclusive education So the report that we did is available There's the URL all the references all that I didn't put the references here Just out of space on the slides, but all the studies all the research is there if you can't get it I'll email you a PDF and in November Maybe early December. We are releasing a special edition of an international scholarly journal Exceptional the education international is a very highly regarded special education journal We have convinced the authors to do a special edition and in that special edition I think we have nine Articles Ted Malouche courtier mine is there. There's one on mental health. There's one on autism It's one on documentation. There's one on transition plan So what we're doing we're really starting to try and join the two disciplines And there's no way to get special education academic scholars to start thinking of this than the published in their world, right? No, no, it's reads that world, but they read that world and Solidifying this in the in the literature. So both of these are accessible and I'm accessible Right, so that's my email address. I'd be more than happy to respond to emails Or for documents, I'm not sure how we are for time. I'm totally Okay, am I as perfect as Craig Alexander my people will be surprised to hear that Thank you