 Hello and welcome back to Marxist Voice, the podcast of Socialist Appeal, the Marxist Voice of Labour and Youth, which is also now the paper and the podcast that the right wing of the Labour Party officially does not want you to hear or to read. And we've been away for a while, we've been out on the streets selling Socialist Appeal, we've been out on the demos protesting about kill the bill and Black Lives Matter and against austerity against this horrible criminal Tory government. But we're back tonight with this special live stream to talk to Rob Sewell, editor of Socialist Appeal, about some particularly significant events that have been taking place over the last few days. Socialist Appeal along with three other left wing organisations are to be prescribed from the Labour Party. The crime is simply one of being socialists, no other real reason is given, every other reason given is spurious, and really this is a direct political attack on us, Socialist Appeal as an organisation, and the ideas of Marxism that we represent. Now, today, as I said, the NEC of the Labour Party is meeting to discuss a motion that would see Socialist Appeal and these other groups ascribed. The motion is currently still being discussed, we hoped that there would be a decision by now that we could comment on, but we've also got to face reality, which is that the right wing currently dominates the Labour NEC. And therefore this motion is very likely to pass the right wing are really out for blood and Socialist Appeal seem to be first in the firing line. So obviously we can't comment on the result for certain, but obviously it looks like it will be passing. And with that is likely to come a reported 3000 expulsions. Apparently already 3000 letters have been lined up by the Labour Party's compliance unit to send out to Socialist Appeal supporters and other activists who they deem as incompatible with Labour Party membership. Now that there was actually already earlier today, a protest outside Labour HQ, organised by the groups affected by this targeted by this as long as as well as other groups across the left. The speakers from Socialist Appeal were present as and supporters were there saying Socialists in Stamah out, and we've had an enormous amount of solidarity and support coming in from across the Labour movement big organisations like momentum and other MPs have come out against this. The left NEC members have all publicly stated that they will vote against this motion to prescribe Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell and other MPs have come out against this bureaucratic move. We're seeing also a swell of grassroot support coming in from ordinary Labour members who are angered and outraged that this bureaucratic wing of the party the Blair rights the right wing spending more time attacking the left and attacking this criminal Tory government. We're seeing messages of support explicitly coming into Socialist Appeal from John McDonnell from Ian Hodgston the president of the Bakers Union from Paul Holmes the new president of unison, as well as motions of solidarity and statements of solidarity from grassroots groups that are controlled by the left. And in other words you can really see that this has provoked a groundswell of anger and outrage, unlike anything we've seen really since Jeremy Corbyn suspension back last year. Now, Rob, we're joined with Rob Sewell editor of Socialist Appeal tonight to discuss the relevance of all these events and Rob, just to start us off then as I said this this seems to really be a wake up call for the left the fact that there's thousands of expulsions set to take place probably the biggest wave of expulsions and exclusions we've seen since at least the 2015 2016 Labour purge when they tried to manipulate the results of the leadership election, possibly even before that obviously thousands of members have left out of this discussion and demoralisation on top of that, but it seems to have really been a wake up call for the rest of the left that there's a wider attack coming here against the left wing of the Labour Party, and that now is really the time to actually act and do something, and it's really alarmed the rest of the left so can you just start us off by saying what do you really, what do you see as the significance of this attack against Socialist Appeal and these other groups. I think obviously it's a very serious situation from the point of view that there are whole layers of people who joined the party in order to hopefully transform their lives and the lives of working people and they're being betrayed really by the Labour leadership. I don't know if this is a surprise necessarily because the whole of the last 18 months has been one of an attack on the left and also a shift to the right on behalf of Starmer and Company. It's quite clear that they had a plan, if you like, they had a strategy of ridding the party as they would see it of Corbynism. Of course they couldn't do it in one fell sweep, after all, Starmer stood on a platform of unity in the party and his 10 points and we continue from the 2017 policies and so on and so forth. But he conned the membership in order to vote for them as leader of the Labour Party and while that perhaps being new and knew what the score was in relation to what he was trying to do, many genuinely believe that he would carry on where things were left off, the good policies at that time. Clearly they must feel betrayed at the present moment because it's quite blatant in the way in which the party has been shifted to the right. But there's very little difference between the Tory government and the so-called loyal opposition, this constructive opposition of Starmer. And of course he's also engaged in a review of policies which means they're going to try and ditch the policies as well. It reminds you of the Kinnock days, you know, where Kinnock also started out on the left of course and then used that in order to push the party to the right. He became an established man and he also carried out the purge, a big purge with the militant and then from militant went on to other layers until he crushed the life of the Labour Party. He prepared the way for Blairism as we know. So I'm not surprised at this attack, clearly also that social appeal has been quite prominent I think in the past period in fighting for bolder socialist policies going further. The restoration of clause 4 for instance, the socialist clause of the party adopted in 1918, we wanted to restart because it was taken away by Tony Blair in 1995. And we thought that this is the time for it to be put back in place after all. We're facing the greatest crisis of capitalism for the last 300 years. The time for bold socialist policy is now, it's never been greater. And we got what? We pushed the campaign, we got support from other lefts and so on and so forth who are prominent in the campaign. And 62% of constituency local parties voted in favour to restore clause 4. Unfortunately, the trade union leaders decided otherwise but also we participated on a recall conference because the way this disgusting witch hunt was taking place in the left where Corbyn was being suspended, where parties were being suspended, individuals were being suspended and witch hunted in the party. And we thought, well, you know, there should be a special anybody conference to decide this that the membership decide what's going to happen. Of course, they blocked that again, again, we were pushing like that and we were to the forefront of that. And even now it was the disillusionment with Stammer and the ineptitude of the leadership and the way they perform that we put forward the idea of a no confidence vote in the leadership. But we think there should be replaced. There should be a new leadership contest where the left should put up once again and fight for the leadership of the party. Of course that had also rang alarm bells I should imagine in the leadership of the Labour Party because we have young commies up and down the country putting these motions, getting support around this issue, explaining things politically. And of course there are alarm that this could get support with the change in it. We put forward a rule change as well for the party conference that if there is a no no confidence vote, then there should be an automatic vacancy for the leadership, which is a democratic demand in any case. But all these things must have started ringing alarm bells and that's why we were also put on the hit list if you like, the black list if you like, because that's an amount to a banning of different sections of the party and, you know, four have been put in it now, next week will be another four, the week after that will be another four. This is the way it's going to go on. So this is the beginning of a generalized purge in the party. Let's not, you know, have any illusions about it. And of course, there is a background, isn't it? I mean, the right wing were lost the control of the Labour Party and the ruling class lost control of the Labour Party in 2015 with the election of Jeremy Corbyn. And of course they were terrified it was going to happen, not so much that perhaps for Jeremy's sake, but the masses that now started to collapse around him in a radicalized way and pushing the Labour Party to the left and they did lose control, apart from, of course, the parliamentary Labour Party, which is like a bit of a cesspit, if you like, of the right wing and the official them and right wing councillors and so on. If all those leftovers, if you like, of the past, they were the head bangers of the right, if you like, and they attempted to undermine and destroy Corbyn in whatever way he sees it, whatever way they saw fit there through sabotage, who undermined him left and centre, going to the press. I mean, I've never seen such a witch hunt against the individuals in order to destroy the movement and unfortunately they managed to go quite a long way, you know, to the point that they've suspended Jeremy Corbyn, first of all from the Labour Party when he was re-admitted and then from the parliamentary Labour Party, it must be for three months, that was eight months ago. They're going to keep him, don't worry, they put the victim in their teeth, they're determined to carry this counter-revolution through because that's what it is, an attempted counter-revolution through the Labour Party. We just, we just, we're the hors d'oeuvre, if you like, there's the beginnings of it, you know, and of course they'll come for others once they get away with it. So the day is that they're in financial difficulties now because the membership has fallen so much, 100,000 people have left the Labour Party in disgust and of course there's a financial problem, they're going to make redundant 90 full-time staff, although then they're going to say they're going to take on 30 to 40 agency workers in order to spy on members of the party to see if they're reading socialist appeal or they're declaring, you know, left-wing policies, they route them out automatically and they say, there's no even a right to appeal as far as I understand, it's an absolute disgrace from beginning to end, but what do you expect? What do you expect from this gang of right-wing, if like, well, they're for capitalism, clearly, they want to make the Labour Party safer for capitalism, they're agents of capitalism, let's not mince words here, they are agents of capitalism working in the Labour Party and their task is to make sure that the Labour Party is firmly under their control so it doesn't get out of hand and that's what they've done for years and years and years, for decades and decades and decades but they lost control in 2015, that shocked them and they're not going to, they envy of you, they're not going to have that repeated again and therefore they've got to go for blood if you like, they want blood, they want mass expulsions and they've made it clear, in the past, it means clearing out 10,000, they'll clear them out because everyone they expel, they hope another 100 will leave, it's the moralised, the frightened and so on and so forth and members of the party, so that's where it's all leading. And it seems that this is obviously not accidental in terms of the timing, you've got the Labour Party conference coming up in September, there is a rule change that's supposed to be going to conference that we've helped also pass in many CELPs which calls for a rule change that if it were passed would allow a vote of no confidence in the leader at conference to be binding and force a vacancy force a leadership contest, which would obviously allow the left to actually launch a leadership challenge, given that they would then have a lower threshold of MPs required to nominate a candidate. We've also seen obviously votes of no confidence in Starmer recently, and it looked like up until the very narrow victory in Batley and Spen that even the right wing was willing to get rid of Starmer, it seems now that in the wake of that very narrow victory, Starmer's trying to consolidate and go back on the offensive and clear out the left saying that the Corbynism and Socialists are the problem, that the Labour still needs to move further to the right and so forth. So it all seems like part of this process going into Labour conference that the right wing probably afraid actually that some of these motions could pass clearly they've been stitching up CLPs, AGMs, delegate nominations, all of these sorts of things have been stitched up over the last few weeks and months to try and make sure the vote goes in their favour at conference, but this also seems to be part of that, taking out the capitating the most militant layers of the left are actually the ones fighting for these kind of motions. And in terms of targeting us specifically socialist appeal, they're using on the surface at least these excuses that we're an organisation within the Labour Party, we're a party within a party is the phrase they've used that we're altruists effectively that our ideas are somehow as you say toxic or poisonous. These are all the kind of terms that are being used, and therefore that Labour Party membership and socialist appeal support are incompatible, something that they said, when they actually expelled myself and others, the first time around in 2015-2016 we were actually all let back in after disciplinary panels said that there was no incompatibility. But these are the kind of excuses that you've seen being given by the right wing, obviously a lot of it is window dressing. What would you answer in terms of all of these kind of slanders and smears against us as an organisation? What do you think are the real reasons they're going for us and targeting socialist appeal in particular? Well, as I said, it is obviously a broader question. They're trying to get rid of good socialists from the party at the same time they're embracing formatories and so on, as a means of shifting the party to the right. It's all about that. It's about making sure that they destroy the left as a matter of fact. Of course, they're raising the bogeyman that this is a party within the party. I mean, the right wing have been organised for donkeys years, and they've got their own finances, their own organisation and their own backing from the ruling class, and that's standard fare. The left are also organised in momentum and other organisations in the Labour Party. So what? It's a democratic right to be organised, to bring your comments together, to fight for a particular viewpoint. The right wing are organised and the left wing are organised for God's sake. We're going to sit back and take it. We're trying to fight on a level playing field here. Of course, we're always fighting with one hand tied behind our backs all the time because they're trying to cripple us, they're moving the goalposts all the time. Socialist appeal has been going on for 30 years, so they choose now after 30 years to say, you're incompatible with membership of the Labour Party. Well, why? Have we stood against the Labour Party in elections? No. Have we called for the vote against the Labour Party in elections? No. I challenge them, they can look for every single issue of socialist appeal for the last 30 years, come up with an article, just one will do, I don't mind. That says we are against the Labour Party and we support other parties and they actually won't find a single one, they can't find it because it doesn't exist. We've been loyally supporting the party over the years in that regard against the Tory Party, no doubt about it. Unlike them, by the way, that's the whole point, so they have the hypocrisy of these people. Under Corbyn's leadership, they were going behind and sabotaging Labour's prospects in the general election. We saw the way in which the secret report after the 2019 election was exposed really, the criminal activity of these individuals. In the organisers, full-time organisers paid for the Labour Party, stabbed in the Labour Party in the back and then working against the Labour Party, that's what you had. And then they accused us, you know, went to fight for a Labour government, hard with comrades up and down the country, young comrades prepared to get the vote out and so on and so forth. And we're the ones that are supposed to be expelled. What a disgrace, what a disgrace. And everybody knows it, everybody knows it. This is just a flannel, complete flannel, you know, and it shows how far they're prepared to go. Of course, they've got the votes of the National Executive, they've got the votes in the pocket and therefore they're going to try and push it through on the north. They're also attacking Liverpool as well, so another paper is to basically disenfranchise the whole of the Labour Party's on Merseyside until 2026. God, God, on the basis there's misogynist attitudes in the party, there's anti-Semitism, there's intimidation, you name it, they come up with a report, cooked up report obviously, you know, by right wingers who have, you know, served them this stuff in order to pair, again, a witch hunt against the best people in the party. They will destroy the party if they have to. You know, I know some people talk about, well, you know, they shouldn't do this because they're going to lose the next election. Look, the right wing couldn't care less. That's a secondary question. As far as they're concerned, their task is to destroy the left. Anyway, Stammer supports capitalism. So does Boris Johnson, that's why they've got very similar attitudes in that regard. They are agents of capitalism. They want to safeguard capitalism because one wants to do it with a smiley face and the other wants to do it with a snarl, that's all. It's a division of Labour but they are pro-, the whole right wing are agents of capitalism. And that's their role because they're well paid and careerists and so on as well. But they, you know, accuse us of being a party with, they are the ones, interests by God. They're the interests who come in as careerists because they probably picked the Labour Party in areas where the Labour Party had support. You know, they look for which party shall I join, gunner thing. You know, there's the further my own careers and you have that careerism is rife and they do well in the Tory Party or the Liberal Party. They're the same types in actual fact. And they're the ones who are, they're the mafia. They're the ones who are, you know, the fifth column, if you like, in operating the Labour Party, they've not been brought to account because they should have been expelled a long time ago. And MPs, they've been suspended a long time ago of right wing Labour MPs who undermine the support of the Labour Party. We know all this but of course, you know, they are victorious. They cleared out all the lefts from the shadow cabinet straight away, then got rid of Corbyn of course. I mean, Neil Kinnock didn't expel Tony Ben, you know, it's quite, and it shows how far they're prepared to go. They want to turn the clock back to the 1930s, you know, where the left, you know, were marginalized. And yes, there is a tradition where the right wing have always represented the interests of capitalism and to purge the left. And I don't bevin, you know, he's there, he's talked, I mean, it talked off in great glowing terms as the founders of the National Health Service and you know, Stamman, the rest of them talk about the wonders of wonderful health service and wonders of the United Kingdom. They expelled Bevin in 1938, and they banned the Bevinite organization for being exactly a party within a party, and they were well organized of course. I mean, they've expelled people left, right, and sent them where they came to it or suspended them. You know, your Michael Foote was suspended. And Sidney Silverman was going to get rid of. I mean, where their interests, you know, conflict, they take a very drastic action against the left. And of course this is what it's all about. It's ironic is obviously they accuse us of being the alien ideas, the poisonous toxic ideas within the Labour Party. But can you explain a little bit then about what is the legacy of Marxism and the Labour Party, what role has Marxism played historically and traditionally within the Labour movement in Britain. How could I say, a very much an unknown chapter, I think, in the British working class because it's deliberately hid for obvious reasons but the Marxists played a very key role in founding the unions, the mass unions of the GMB. There was a conference where Will Thorne was the leader of the general, the boilermakers unit at that time, the Gas Workers Union was a member of, was a Marxist, a member of the Social Democratic Federation. One of the first workers organizations, political organizations, working class organizations in Britain was a Marxist organization. And the next we came when it was on the general council of the Gas Workers Union, again, the GMB. You know, Tom Mann becoming, becoming again a Marxist revolution, becoming a leader of the engineering workers union, which came into your night. I mean, the whole basis of this new, of the new unionism of the 1880s, 1890s were spurned and led largely by Marxists at that particular time. This is for the creation also for the Labour Party, and the Marxists participated in the creation of the Labour Party as a genuine Labour Party of Labour. In fact, that was the SDF. And they were actually given two seats in the National Executive as permanent seats, you know. So they had, unfortunately, they had a very sectarian attitude, they said a stupid attitude and because they put for a resolution saying the Labour Party should have a bold sources program with common ownership, and it was rejected. They threw their toys out of the pram and walked away, which is a stupid thing because in 1918 under the impact of the Russian Revolution and an events in other words, clause four was born, you know, to cure for the workers by handle by bring the full fruits in that industry, based upon the common ownership precisely, of the means of production, distribution and exchange. And that showed that the Labour Party at that they became a socialist party before that he was just representing ordinary people in Parliament and became a socialist party. But Marxism has always been present. I mean, even when the Communist Party was formed in 1920 was formed out of the Socialist Labour Party. They were affiliated to the to the to the to the Labour Party and they asked for affiliation, and they were turned down. But and and and commerce could actually goes delegates to the Labour Party conference right up to 1925 because the right wing got in charge and they decided to book them out and that's where bands and prescriptions and all the rest came flowing back in, to stymie the left to drive the left out, basically, and that's what I've done. Although many people were influenced like naïve ever naïve ever and considered himself a Marxist. He said the political trainer that he had was a young man was in the ideas of Marxism, and it affected the whole layer of that generation, even at Lee climate at Lee the leader of the body at the play at the pay, you know, a homage to Marxists who built the pioneers of the British Labour movement. But of course, therefore Marxism was always had a thread if you like a basis within the party defended with it was militant obviously in the 1980s they expelled the militant, not because they were a party because they were so successful that's the point about it, it was it was growing and growing in success they were terrified, because it was putting more, more, I feel like backbone in the struggle itself and they decided to expel militant at that point. And you had people like Tony Ben for instance coming out in in support in an courageous way, Tony Ben wasn't a Marxist, but he said that the party itself needs the Marxist tendency for the valuable input that they can make to the ideas and philosophy and outlook of the party itself. And, in fact, an item Bevan warned you know if you if you try and ban the Marxist it's like bringing about an ideological concentration camp in the Labour Party that's the words of my Bevan, that's exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to squeeze out everything and have policies just in favour of capitalism and so on but we represent a very honourable or long tendency in the British Labour movement Marxism and now I would say more relevant than ever before. That's the point about it. That's why it's growing. I mean, these attacks and so on don't, you know, don't come for any of no reason that social appeal has been growing left, right and centre over the last couple of years. And obviously, it's become noticed, you know, and therefore they become terrified and the reason for why we've grown is because Marxism is more relevant now than ever before you have the greatest crisis of capitalism with 300 years according to the Bank of England. I mean, if I have a stereotype, we have the polarization of rich and poor and so on, all the ills of capitalism are bearing down and Marxism gives an explanation of this. That's the point about it and offers a way forward. It's a guide to action. It's not a dogma. It clearly gives us a viewpoint about the class nature of society, the class nature of the right wing of how capitalism can't deliver to the gods on the country. It's going to attack the working class. We see that now when they're going to get rid of the furlough system. But this is the beginning of a vicious attack. They want the working class to pay for the crisis of capitalism. And you haven't seen nothing. Yes, there'd be a massive attacks on the working class. So, you know, I know Stam is thinking he's sold it all up. He's got the votes. I think he's going to regret the day because the objective situation, the crisis is going to bear in, first of all, on the unions. And then it'll bear in in the Labour Party because the unions are affiliated to the Labour Party. And if they think they've sold it all up, they've got another thing coming. They may temporarily hold the tide that I can't conute to them. You know, hoping that the tide doesn't come in. But, you know, the class struggle waits for no man as it were. And if you think that the, you know, the dictates of a general secretary is more powerful than the class struggle, they got something to be, you know, be aware of, you know, and, you know, in one sense is a bit of a pinprick really, you know, to expel us, expel us from what? You know, you can expel us from the working class, can you? You can expel us from the trade union and Labour movement, can you? And are we going to have influence in the Labour Party? You know, if we're all expelled, of course we will because we'll have comrades there who will collaborate with us and so on and so forth. Our influence will grow also in the trade unions. And we will be, if I feel like, coming back with a vengeance in that sense and whatever they do to us now, you know, in fact what's been happening will encourage us, it's going to make us, you know, even more determined to carry things through, because these people have gone away with murder. Absolutely. Unfortunately, I think the left are being pretty, how can I say, a bit of a sorry state when it comes to what they should have done when they had control of the Labour Party. You know, they mucked it up basically because they had control. You know, 300,000 new members flooded in, they were desperate for change, and yet you had this cabal of right wing infiltrators, interest, I don't care what you call them, agents of the ruling class in Parliament, sabotage in left, right and centre, and we were supposed to smile and take it, these spattered faces. I mean, what should have happened, you should have automatic reselection, let the rank and file aside, and they wanted to bring it back in 2018. And yet the, you know, the leadership said, oh, you can't unity, unity. How could I have unity with people stabbing you in the back? Come on, tell me. And this is, and look at that policy has now ended up, you know, with the defeat of Corbyn, Corbyn suspended from the Labour Party, expulsion is going to take place, people are being prescribed. That's the failure of the left, I'm afraid to say, because the right wing, whenever they get a chance, you know, they get the bit, the teeth, and they are vicious. When the left have a chance, oh my God, you know, come on, you know, you've got to grow a backbone, you can't let them get away with it. Unfortunately, they've got away with it. They've got away with it. And as a result, we're in this, this, this, this pretty messy situation where hundreds of thousands are leaving the party, and there'll be 100,000 more leader party when they demoralized when the party moves further to the right because that's the intention. And therefore, they think that's the outcome of their, their attitude. So I think that that's a very good call to arms. And as you said earlier, Marxism really is a guide to action. So what would you say to all these people you talked about who had demoralized the 100,000 members who've already left the thousands more who are going to be expelled tomorrow. And what do you say to all of those demoralized or disgusted activists who have left the Labour Party already and are looking for a way forward, what's your, what's your, your program to them, you know, the program of action that socialist appeal can offer. Well, there's a number of angles. First of all, you know, first of all, I think that the left trade unions and they are quite considerably weight should basically throw their weight against this purge and this which they've come up with statements but you got to take it to party conference, they got to they got to raise hell. You know, the worst possible thing I was just saying, oh, well, that's it, and lay back and forget about it. And let them roll over us, you know, without any protest whatsoever. And I'm, and I don't mean going through the motions protest. I mean a real fight. You know, there's for instance, there is an on the on the agenda of the conference, as you said, a rule change, which says that any if there's no confidence for there should be a vacancy. The conference range and committee was is dominated by the right wing of blocked us blocked it said I've ruled it out of order. That should be a meatly challenge. There should be a vote on that. We should, you shouldn't give them an inch because if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. But that's up to the leader, you know, I've unfortunately I don't have the power to influence them to do what I think should be done it's up to them. But if they're going to really represent their members and the interests of the working class, then they have to understand that this is a fight to the finish. And they have to understand that this that Stammer and the right wing represent this counter evolution that they trying to impose on the Labour Party. And not this pussy foot around with unity and you know Broad Church, you know, the Broad Church is great. You're an atheist, I suppose, like myself, you know, then you're stuck. But anyway, it's this idea that they, they're all into together. Good Lord, we're not all together. These people are established in the back, they treat us and that's the way it is. And they should be, we should let, I don't want to fail the expulsion that the Labour, let the rank and file decide if there should be MPs or councillors or whatever and let them decide. But it's a bit late in the day because it should have been done 12 months ago, 18 months, it should have been done under Corbyn. That's the whole problem. We're running to catch up now. Unfortunately, 100,000 left the party are already is that there's others don't no doubt they're ready to rip up their cards. And you can understand the reason why because the left have been not really up to the mark as they should have been. They've been fighting, not just to just talk and fighting and the left union shouldn't just, you know, yes, it's like past the parcel, you know, they've got to get stuck in because they'll come for us, they'll try to, look, Blair tried to break the link with the unions as well. And that's what they'll try to do down the line. So therefore, we're in the interest now to defeat this but it's up to them. I would say, of course, if I've been in the party now what 55 years. I'm not very active in the player that is true. Yes, I joined when the Stammer was in Naples man, and I probably have an email or a letter now tomorrow saying I'm booted out. Well, you are. It's life over. I don't think your life's over over why because the class struggle is going to take, take, take its own vengeance on these people. You see the left way the right wing rather. In the 1950s, we're able to have a certain basis as support within society and even in the 90s actually because the world boom but there was upswing in the 1950s. Capitalism could give certain reforms the crumbs off the table if you're like, you know, so you know, my family got a council house, my father was in work, you know, 10 pound a week, you know, there was just not a bad wage at that time. We had, you know, got a wallpaper, we had carpets, we had a fridge, we had a telly, things that we never had before, you know, and therefore these are reforms given to us to because the crumbs that we'd won and capitalism could afford it. But today capitalism can't afford it. That's the whole point. It's the capitalism is austerity is cuts is vicious attacks on the working class. And if you protect capitalism, then you're going to protect protect those very policies that are the interests of capitalism. That's why, you know, we are, we stand out, Marxist tendency. Yes, we take a class point of view. We say that the problems faced by the working class that due to the capitalist system, nothing more, nothing less. And unless the capitalist was ended, then you will not solve the problems of the working class. And even if you make a few gains, they'll give them on with the left hand and they'll take them with the right. Anyway, we've gone further and further back. We've been promised a hundred years ago, bit by bit, we'll get the socialism, you know, just bit by bit. And it's just nonsense. This idea of trying to work within the capitalist system to make it better, to make it more friendly, to make it with a smiley face. It doesn't exist. Capitalism is in deep crisis. It's like a death agony, really. That's the whole point. You can see it. It's engaged in crises of overproduction of trade wars. And above all, look at how it's affecting the working class. Living standards are falling with the biggest cut in real wages. Peter Loomasek, for God's sake, we're going backwards, not forwards. And that's the way that capitalism can only exist. And therefore that's the programme of the right wing. That's the programme that they offer the working class. And the working class, I believe, will not want to go down that road. They will fight like hell against wage cuts and cuts in conditions and so on and so forth. And therefore they're going to come in collision with these people, and they're going to start riling up against them. But they need a voice. That's the point about it. And Marxism gives you that voice because Marxism allows you to understand a broader picture, not the little bits and pieces that make up things. And to see things in a broader context, where things are moving, if you're like, you know, we're able to look into the future a bit more. We've got a crystal ball. It is true. But we have a perspective based upon an analysis of the contradictions of capitalism and the only way out for the working class itself. Whether they fully aware of it, there's anger and bitterness in society, that's for sure. Quickly amongst the youth, that's going to increase, it's going to intensify. You know, the idea that the reform, that the right wing reformism is going to answer by trying to patch up capitalism is a bit baloney, and they'll come into conflict with the trade unions and the working class. And they are, they're not going to survive, by the way, the right wing, sooner or later, and it's not going to be that long, their base is going to be smashed. It's a very little base now, it's in the apparatus, and therefore the left is going to come back, but this of a left is going to be a genuine left, you know, what I mean by that is prepared to go all the way. And what Marxism does is we are not prepared to compromise with capitalism. We are fundamentally against capitalism. We want to get rid of capitalism. We want a bold socialist program that will eradicate this system and create and the wealth created by the working class should be put in the hands of the working class. And that comes by taking over the banks, insurers, companies, the big monopolies, the land and put it under workers control and management by the working class itself. So we produce things, not for profit, we produce them for need, and we really need stuff, you know, the workers have been squeezed to death, or the billionaires can fly off to the bloody moon, they can get a rocket somewhere. And our people are suffering under this, this misery. And therefore, you know, that's the whole basis of it, we have Marxism says there's no way out on this on a capitalist basis, we have to fight for a change of fundamental change of social change in society. So join us, let's build the mass Marxist force with that, that message, that determination in the trade unions and yes, in the future Labour Party as well. And that's an argument, but you know, that's the only, you know, it could be demoralized, it could be fed up, it could be disillusioned, well okay I understand the reasons. But come on. Have a shower. Let's get real. This class struggle is going to go on and we've got to fight it. But the best ways to understand it, isn't it? I think it was, you know, the philosopher Spinoza says, you know, this is not the time to weep or to laugh. This is the time to understand. And that's the key thing. And Marxism gives you the understanding, gives you the compass of where we go in. And on the basis of this calamity that's coming for the working class internationally and in Britain, there's going to be revolutionary elections in Britain and Marxism is going to be and both sources policies extremely attractive to young people and the workers in struggle. And we've got to build that Marxist tendency, because when the next waves and they will come of left wing, they will come flooding into the movement itself. We've got to be there, not just a small group, but a large tendency with a message that can mobilize and gain the year of those workers. And thereby I hope that we can carry the message that we'll get to transform society. This is all about. There's nothing more we are the if like the inheritors of this tradition of this policy of this idea. The collective situation now is right thing for those ideas. You cannot witch hunt or destroy an idea whose time has come. That's what the right wing do not understand. That's what they don't understand. And of course, my phone's going off, which I can't work anyway. I've lost my plot now. But the right wing, yes, do not understand what's going to happen to them and they're going to be thrown out on the year. Let them comfort themselves in the soft seats and the bureaucratic positions. They're going to be out on the basis of the movement of the working class, but let's not make the mistakes we've done in the past. Let's learn from you have to go to the end. You cannot give them an inch. Otherwise, they'll take a mile. We have to have a bow program that's not going to patch up capitalism or turn capitalism. And then just a working people so we can solve the problems, not just in words jam tomorrow, but build the houses, you know, council houses, minimum wage can be a great guaranteed jobs for all. Lower the pension age. All these things could be there with the wealth of society was given to the ordinary people of this society. And that's what we stand for. These radical and revolutionary ideas that they say it's not radical at all. It's elementary, it's basic ideas in a sense, but that's the spirit that we think that needs to be done. And therefore, I urge you, yes, don't stand on the sidelines. Come and join us. You know, Stammer wants to ban us, drive us out of office, close down our paper. Well, they held to him. The best answer to this birds. Come and join social appeal, help us sell the paper, read the paper. Have you made the paper? Come on, let's get active together, prepare the ground for the future. You know, don't get angry comrades. Get even. That's what he got to do. And that means yes, joining an organization is prepared to go all the way like social appeal. So I've therefore urge you to do that fight for yourselves and fight for your future. Thank you very much, Rob. I think that is an excellent explanation really for why the right wing wants to ban us, why they're so afraid of these ideas of our paper of our organization. And one thing they have done is a service to actually promote those ideas because more and more people now are seeing the name socialist appeal in the newspapers and knowing that if Stammer is attacking us, then we must be saying and doing something correct because there's an enormous anger towards Stammer and right wing for the failure to write any real opposition. So if you're one of the people at home who's watching this for the first time because you've read about socialist appeal in the news recently, then please take on board all the things Rob just said, get involved with us get in touch visit socialist.net, go to forward slash socialist.net forward slash join obviously to get in touch with local activists in your area to get organized in the fight for socialism. Join us in the struggle for socialist ideas for Marxist ideas in the labor movement on the streets, and also help us in terms of donations and subscriptions as Rob said, read the paper subscribe to the paper donate to the organization. Follow us obviously on all our social media our YouTube our Twitter our Instagram our Tik Tok, and share all of our material widely to all of your friends and family and comrades and colleagues, so that we can get these ideas out there the ideas that they're trying to ban they're trying to block. These are the ideas the right wins afraid of and Rob I think is explained very well why they should be afraid of them so just to reiterate Rob's final call to arms there. Please join us in the struggle for socialism visit socialist.net forward slash join, and we'll see you for the next episode of Marxist voice, hopefully in the not too distant future. Thank you and have a good evening.