 12 o'clock Rock. I'm Jay Fiedel and Think Tech. This is Think Tech Global. We have a special guest for this show This is Judge Shackley refetter retired Chief Judge of the Second Circuit in Maui for many years And he's also a director of Think Tech Hawaii and he made a trip to Kiev And I want to let him explain exactly why he went to Kiev and what he did there. Welcome to the show Thank you, Jay. Good to be here. I'm happy to sort of share with you some of the things I did on this trip I was Invited to come to Kiev to attend a conference on military justice and it was sponsored by the Couple of organizations, but the main one was the Partnership for peace which was established as part of the Nate a part of NATO after the Cold War ended to involve the eastern European former Warsaw Pact countries and this particular conference was designed to Sort of prime the pump to begin to assist these countries in reforming their military justice programs As a part of their overall military reform and the piece there is that you are we also a retired Jaguar officer Right a captain right four stripes. That's very right Yeah, and I also United States Navy. Yes Yeah, Navy reserve and I also served as a military judge for five years of that period But but as a that's how I actually got interested and started in international things and teaching and traveling around and and doing this sort of work and the Organization that invited me actually is called the Geneva Center for the democratic control of armed forces It is a Swiss intergovernmental Organization that puts on programs like this all over the world. What does control mean in that context? It's basically talking about civilian control the military is their main function good thing to try to assist mainly the former eastern, you know, Soviet black countries to Develop their democratic institutions post Cold War important absolutely. So you went. What was it like? Oh Kiev is a fantastic beautiful city It's kind of on Hills Next to the Dniper River, which is a famous, you know a river in Europe a lot of beautiful Cathedral's and beautiful buildings. I think it's one of the prettiest cities. I've been to outside of say st. Petersburg and You know, there's a war going on there We were only about a hundred miles away from where the war was went anyway Yeah, but you didn't notice that and you know unless you talk to people and then they would talk about it But you didn't see ambulances rushing through the streets or anything like that But one of the things that I did have the opportunity to do was I I love to go to the especially World War two sites that you can go to in Eastern Europe now that the Cold War is over with You know, we heard about these when the Cold War was on but we could never go to these places So I take that I took the opportunity to go to one place on this trip, which is the famous location called Baba Yar, which was a site of some of the early mass very large mass killings of the Jewish population of Kiev and I went there to sort of bear witness and to You know glad you pay my respects and and I'd like to talk a little bit about that today And I have some slides to show you why don't we go through the slides and see if we can find some on On the Bobby are okay. This is the military just skip about four ahead Right there. This is the operation but it begins here operation Barbarossa was the name of the German attack on the Soviet Union which kicked off in 1941 in June And as the slide says it was the master plan for Germany to pick over Russia and then the next slide you can see the Organization of the attack and you see the lower arrow that was our army group south they had armor group north center and south and the armor group south went to Kiev and they got there in September of 1941 and and Some of the things that happened when they took control of the city like you want me to go into the details now Okay, let's go back to that one for a second So when they got to Kiev They took control of the city there was you know hundreds of thousands of people still living there although the Soviets had evacuated a large number, but the Soviet enki NKVD Which is the KGB the former name they had placed a lot of big Explosives around the city and they started setting those up and killing German soldiers and they killed a number of officers and in one of the big hotels which was the army headquarters and the the The military captured a person who was Jewish Who seemed to be in their opinion involved in this and they used that as an excuse to round up and to Basically execute the entire Jewish population of Kiev and what they did was they and they put an announcement out Ordering that all of the Jewish population report on a certain day and to bring their valuables and warm clothes And they anticipate about 5,000 people would show up 30 something thousand showed up. Oh and in a period of two to three days They took these people didn't know they thought they were being resettled to someplace in the in the east because this was a beginning of the Eastern occupation by the by the German army, so they didn't know What was going to happen in those times and apparently when in World War one when the Germans occupied that city They were they were pretty civil about the local population, so they didn't anticipate any anything negative This is before the The big prison camps gas chambers. Yeah, before they were invented. Yeah, right. Yes and so and so they they basically Fooled these people into thinking that they were going to be relocated and they took them to this place called Bobby Are apparently in Turkic Yarmine's Gully or Valley and it is a big Valley I have I have a picture I tried to take a picture of it and They they decided they put this is the this is the older picture of how it looked at about that time And they use this They just marched they've had everybody take their their valuables off Here's their mark This is a picture at the time of marching the people to Bobby are which is right on the outskirts of Kiev It's actually in the city limits now But in order to find it you have to you have to you have to seek it out It's not it's not on the it's not a regular tourist stop street sign there No, no, and so I hired a car and told the driver what I what I wanted and and he took me there But that but once the people were out there They marched them out to the to this valley in groups of ten and they killed him and they killed 30,000 people over a course of a couple of days and Here's the mass grave and here's the mass grave. Yeah, what'd you get these pictures? I got them off of the internet and a couple of the articles that I that I sent on to you and so I wanted to go to this place to bear witness just to you know pay my respects and and And and gather information so I could share it like we're doing today I think I think it's important to do that To go to go there and then I can explain it in a little more meaningful way One of the things that came out on a 60 minutes program involving a priest We discussed this you and me as a French priest who makes his who makes it his business to go through areas like this in fact this very area and Talk to people and find out you know because they they they not easy they they don't talk about it easily that's right and To find out what happened and he had discovered the last time there was a segment of 60 minutes about this We learned that that that outside the immediate perimeter of the Germans shooting people in Bobby are There were the townspeople. Yes, the townspeople were there. They came for I guess entertainment To see what was going on because he was going on this is unique at that time So did you touch any of that on your on your trap on your travels? Well, I didn't talk to any locals But I knew from what I'd read that that that local population was complicit There were groups of Ukrainians who assisted the Germans in the in the whole process and of course, you know They don't like to talk about this in fact they they didn't have the menorah memorial erected until like 1967 and For political reasons they just didn't you know it was something that was pretty much hushed up I guess because they weren't too proud of what happened Wait and eventually eventually about 200,000 people were murdered They they also murdered Soviet soldiers and political dissidents and a lot of gypsies and Most of the rest of the Jewish population was wiped out and then at the and then when the Soviet army was was retaking that area in 1943 they were they had orders to to cover this up and to Dissenture all the bodies and there there's interesting stories about What happens when you bury this many people in a particular place? What happens? well it gas forms and and it and it comes to the surface and you know and it smells and you know I mean, it's it's not something that's easy to cover up Yeah, and so they were concerned that the Soviets when they came to they were going to find this and it wasn't going To be good for them so they they what they did was they took 100 or so people from a local Concentration captain was nearby Is it I have the detail I'm going to talk about a little bit about the details which are pretty grim So they went to a nearby Jewish cemetery They pulled out gravestones and they made foundations and they pulled the corpses is two years later and they pulled the corpses out of the ground and they layered them with wood and Petrol and flammable materials in some cases two stories high and these funeral pyres And they burned them all the bodies and this took a week or so Maybe a couple weeks and and then they then went that got the ashes Their bones didn't all burn and they took the gravestones and mashed up all the bones And then they sifted through the ashes for gold and silver that might still be able to be found and they had a name for these people which I have here, but They they had a name that they they gave them but it is it is a horrific horrific story but it actually happened and and if you show the picture of the the menorah Slide yes, this is the memorial that they have there and it was I think in 1967 that that at first was put up and I don't know if it was exactly this one, but Anyway, it took a long time. There's another slide of in the of them. Yes It's not easy to find these places as I said and we we had to walk around and they told us that the actual Valley where the this all occurred was not right at the memorial that you had to walk around So we walked around and we found this memorial here some Yards away and I have a feeling that this is this was a More personal memorial that someone put up on the spot And I don't I've got to get someone to translate the Russian to see what it says on there But I thought that this had a really authentic look to it Yeah, and then this is the valley actually what you think is the actual valley Yeah, we're all this occurred and so we we went there and Saw what we could There and I'm glad you you're talking about it now It's it was it was one of the largest mass executions by the Nazis in World War two There were a couple of others that were same sizable, and then of course the gas chambers But this was the hundreds of thousands. Yes. Yes, and the The German army was actually complicit in this. They just they've you know discovered later Which was denied for a long time by the German army But it was also these the SS and the insets grouping and these special Details that they sent around on the eastern front to kill people and and you know they had their way in the Ukraine Yeah, whatever they wanted Question. Did you did you see any indication of Jewish synagogues or Jewish people that you meet any Jewish people? Killed I Didn't but there I know that there is a Jewish population there now, and you can visit it if you go there And I highly recommend it. Kev is a beautiful interesting very interesting city to visit I have some pictures of the general, you know buildings and cathedrals and so we're gonna see those right after the break Okay, that's done. Shackler with that. Oh chief judge in the second circuit retired and also Captain in the U. United States Navy Jagd Corps would be right back Aloha everyone. I'm Maria Mera, and I'm here to invite you to my bilingual so Viva Hawaii and think that Hawaii Every other Monday at 3 p.m. We are here to talk about news issues and events local and around the world Join me Aloha Aloha, my name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of law across the sea. Please join me every other Monday to hear lawyers from Hawaii Discussing ways to reach across the sea and help people and bring people together. Aloha Aloha, I'm Kaui Lucas host of Hawaii is my mainland here on think tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 3 p.m Start your Paul Hanna weekend off with the show where I talked to people about issues pertinent to Hawaii You can see my previous shows at my blog kauilukas.com and also on think tech Okay, we're back to live with judge Shackler a federal retired chief judge of the second circuit for many years a Director of think tech Hawaii and a retired Jagd Corps captain in the United States Navy who went to Kiev We're talking about his trip. We're very excited to hear about his trip We're learning a lot from him, so we want to give us a little slideshow of how it was you took a lot of photos Let's see some of them. Okay. Okay. These are just a general selection of photos These are this is one of the cathedrals right near the hotel where I say there are a number of these in Kiev. They're these beautiful Orthodox Christian cathedrals with the golden domes that you know are so famous and they they maintain their Seem to seem to maintain their buildings really well. So that is the there's a different one Which is a very beautiful Cathedral as well. I mean I think they're Very impressive that these pastel colors like this seem to be characteristic of buildings in Russia and then Ukraine have a handle on how old they are Must be 1600s yeah, they've probably been rebuilt over time This was just a street near the hotel where there were a lot of shops But I thought that the architecture was really interesting kind of old European Look to it. Yeah, and this is so near the hotel in Eastern Europe you get a lot of Statues like this and I'll show you one as we get to it the Soviet statues are even more heroic Now this is this is near the Military Museum, which was closed But they had a lot of things to see outside These soldiers here. This is commemorating World War two obviously which they called the Great Patriotic War And it was this huge metal Must have been cast I guess Sculpture very heroic in the Soviet heroic style. You can see the big statue behind That's about five or six stories high and there's another right there. No, this is typical of heroic Statuary in Eastern Europe At least in the Soviet areas Eastern Berlin has them and then this is this is a continuation of what you saw before with the soldiers which is a depiction of I guess life in the Ukraine at During that period of time and you can see the workmen and the and probably Intended to shortly after the revolution and here's the soldier. Yeah, it's a Tommy gun really kind of typical of Soviet Heroic Statuary now this was a this was a nearby area where they had lots of hardware, which I'm I'm really interested in These are old tanks. This is a museum area. So they had an incredible amount of stuff on display So we wanted around this is a famous MIG. I think mi3 attack helicopter, which was so You know, I guess effective from the Soviet point of view and when the Soviets were in Afghanistan They killed a lot of the villagers and there was that famous American senator was it who provided the rockets to shoot down the to shoot These were the helicopters that he wanted to shoot down You can see they're heavily armed with a big cannon in the front and they're armored and they were they were very effective and and deadly for against the Here is me sitting in a MIG 21. Oh, that's you. Yeah. Yeah, they let they let you sit in the in several of these jets And it was funny. There were these two older ladies my age group my age range Who are who are managing this place? and so you paid your paid a little fee and then they walked around with you and And showed you everything and so as I got in this thing I asked this lady I said is the ejection seat disarmed? And I was getting in and I was she said da da da. No, yes. Yes, and I thought I wonder if she understands what an ejection seat So the place is really basically Russian isn't it? I mean they speak Russian But there's a lot of Russian influence. Yes. Yes. Well, the Russ were from Kiev Yeah, that's where the Kibbe and Knights or were from so can we talk about? you know the the whole thing about reforming military justice sure and you know the and the fact that there's a really a lot of Tension there now and probably will continue with mr. Putin in charge So what was what was the nature of the crowd that you met? What was the nature of the discussion? and you know What did you learn there in terms of the diplomatic relations of the area? Well, I learned that the number of this the countries are Worked together like there were representatives from Armenia and Georgia president this conference mostly People who've been working in military justice reform After the Cold War these countries reform their militaries because previously they've been part of the Warsaw Pact and really were part of the overall Soviet Military, but after the Cold War they were they had to sort of reconstruct their militaries and During the Soviet period they had a Jaguar. They had a separate military justice system But when these countries were on their own they didn't have that anymore And so some of them just had no military justice system at all Which the military didn't like because they need a process to for disciplinary purposes in the military What do you do without a military justice system? Well, then it's the civil no that know what happens is the civil courts handle it and and it takes the soldiers out of the Availability for the military and so that's basically a dead loss when the soldiers are taken out to be processed through the civilian system It takes forever and and it doesn't see the purpose of military Justice is is to provide justice for service members and to provide to to promote good order and discipline in the military It's a two-fold purpose. It's not just justice like it is in the civilian system And so when you when you don't have a military justice system of any kind You've deprived the military of the ability to use that as a tool to promote good order and discipline in our military It's basically commander-centric We we provide the commanding officer with a great deal of discretion to decide for instance Who is charged and sent to a court-martial what the charges are and what's done with the verdict Say the members trial of the jury trial at the end of the process In Europe they they they are much more restrictive Let me take a step back of the reason our our system is commander-centric And we can continue that as our Supreme Court has said that they've recognized the military as a separate society Which is based on discipline and there's the rights of service members Constitutional rights for instance are more restricted than they are for an ordinary citizen like search and seizure and things like that It has to be in order to run a military justice system to run the military. Yes, I think so and if there's debate about that There are there are People who think that we should pretty much to make it like that like a civilian system and and take the commander out of the process but my view is the commander is an important part of that process because You know the service members look to them for discipline and also for protection because the service member knows if they're Processed in a military system that people who are processing them Know what it's like to be in the military know what the risks are know that you can be sent any place in the world on Short notice and and maybe put it put your life put at risk Which it's really in court system may not know may not yes would not know about it even though they think they might But in it but in the year in Eastern Europe Most of those countries have signed on to the European Convention on human rights which created a court the European Court of Human Rights and one of the provisions in that Convention is that a person is entitled to a fair trial and they don't make a distinction between the military and civilian People who are brought who are brought before a criminal justice and so they those decisions of that court have Militated against Allowing discretion in the commander like we have in our system and so there's this kind of tension About how much how much authority they can leave Their commanders in as they reform their systems and my that would be more liberal to some that would be more progressive Yes, right. Yes, and and if you think about the recent 20th century history of Europe you can see why they want to they want to You know perhaps restrict the discretionary authority of military commanders So you come from the United States you come from the Jaguar in the Navy you come from the code of military Justice and all the you know law that has been built up in the United States about that It's not necessarily their system. No, so why do they want to hear from you? Do they want to go more to the US system or they want to go to their system? Well, they're in that process and I was I was asked to come and provide a Lecture about the US military justice system so that they could have a learn a little bit about it And I suppose think about whether they whether they want to learn more and whether they want to try to adopt some of our Processes or not see we even though we provide a lot of discretion in the military command There's a lot of checks and balances on the exercise of that authority to protect service members in fact of Court Marshall is pretty much the same As a criminal trial in federal district court And you know if you we will go to watch one even though the terminology, but it's pretty much the same You've jury selection and so on Although the members are appointed by the commander, but well, it's interesting too that you know in a place like the Ukraine and a lot of Europe Civilians have been involved in wars Traditionally they get involved they get sucked in they get killed especially in modern warfare. Yeah, right modern warfare Yeah, that hasn't happened in the US the US the civilians They go into the military, but they they're never you know involved at home In their in their homes and their fields and their cities and all that so we have we have a different experience going here Oh, yeah, I'm very few members of Congress have been in the military. Yeah Yeah, so yet we have some pictures of the conference we can subscribe a little more Or we show them or show it. Why don't you show the the other pictures of Kiev? Well, this is just the conferences me Talking about me. Oh, this is a restaurant nearby The other food was fantastic by the way and very reasonably priced because Ukraine is in a crisis mode right now You know with the war going on there. So the it's a it's a bargain place to visit I thought this was great. There's either picture of Khrushchev. Oh, yeah What do you call sports sport to catch? Body-catch. Oh, this was a military store. I went to you can buy anything in Ukraine They had you can buy an armored vehicle at this place if you if you want. Yeah Yeah, these were two young men who were going into the military and they were buying some uniforms and They were they were kind enough to translate for me And we had we had a nice nice Kind of interaction with these young fellow. They're both friendly. They're yeah, they were both. Yeah, they were very friendly We go and these these fellows were this is a view from my hotel room Spectacular would you go back? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm really like enjoyed it It was very very interesting and beautiful place great food nice people. This is a great thing. You do check the refeta Wonderful to you know to have you go as our emissary Have you engaged with them Oh, these are great people I've been to our meeting Globe Trotter Trotter judge, that's what we have Then check the refeta retired chief judge in the second circuit of director of think-tank away And a retired captain in the Jaguar the United States Navy reserve Thank you Jay