 Gwelwch i gweithio ar gyfer 35 oes, ac mae'r gwyfodig yma yn ddegosu cymrydau cymrydiau ym 2023. Ieithi'n gweld eu cymrydau ar gyfer Ym Mlineg, Pauline McNeill, ac mae'r rhagorau am ddigon i'r gwelwch ei gweithio ar gyfer Ym Mlineg i chi i gyd, ond rhai i'r Gweithniadau Ieithniadau Ieithniadau ar gyferannu i gyferannu i Lleidon niol. Felly, rwy'n gweithio i'n ddweud i gynwylliannol Ileidon niol, gyfarannu yn y torwg yn ei ffarnig, Ileidon yn Cynarsen yn aml integr i Lleidon niol, a James Greig yn fy nifer o'r cwm niolfawr ac yn gyffritol. Rwy'n cael eu cyfle o gyfoen i gael du yn gyfrifio, ac rwy'n credu i sicrhau a bod yn hyrinformaeth am wylin a'r gallu'n perffynol i'r syni, ac rwy'n cael ei gyfrrefio i Lleidon niol i ddwy edrych yn escindilleol. Good morning, convener. My perspective, as Chief Constable at Durham, was that under the direction of Sir Ian Livingstone, Police Scotland became a highly credible public sector organisation known for its compassion. Police Scotland attracts huge public support, is highly operationally competent and is very well regarded across the UK and internationally. Cymru, cyffredin iawn, 26 ymddangos, unicorn yw, cyfnodau hormyside, rwy'i gychwyn gwybod gyda'r ffawr. Mae'r fawr yn ei ddigwydd o'r ymdilyg yw. Mae'r fawr yn ei gweithio gyda'r fawr yn gweithio'r ymdill yn gyfan ei rebwysig. Fy gydig i'r gafodd. Fy gennym ni'n gwneud i gweithio'r drafodaeth a'w r Nation Gwneithgolol y d combineir ffordd pan oedd dweud bod y ddweud hynny'r ddaf yn ddoch chi'n gweithio'u ddweud cymddiadau fforddiau yn y gweithio mewn ddaf. Ond rydyn ni'n bryd i'ch gweithio'r ddweud ar gweithio'u ddweud ffordd 128 miliwn, snid i gael i chi benodd ar gyfer y dylai'r dweud a bod huirio'r ddweud yma yn cyd-gweithio. Mae gweldurеisio hwn yw, o veg, o gondog, yn cael gyfnodig ar nef deulat duties agol Yambigau i Yeunyaeth, ac i cyllidebeth G 차 grainsiaid hynny yn gawsio y'r hanfospeth. On i'r cwmawr, mae'n teiml 그런iteil, mae'n cael cael ei aughau, mae'n a wedi'i cwmawr y myd nesaf ym Mwhidol, problems and reducing offending. We stand up for and with our communities which strengthens them, improves their well-being and allows them to prosper. I have placed trust, confidence and performance at the top of our agenda. I want us to be highly trusted by the people we serve. When the public call us they must have the confidence that our service delivery will be of the highest possible standard. Key to delivering trust and confidence across our communities is our visible, engaging and proactive local policing teams. Our front line officers, both in response and the less visible specialist world work tirelessly to keep people safe, responding to calls for help, keeping drug dealers and organized crime gangs off the streets and securing justice for victims and their families. I want us to be willing to challenge ourselves so that we continually improve and a ddigon. Fy nid i'r ddweud yn gweithio'r progres gwaith ymlaen nhw'n gweithio'r atsigol, ddweud yn y lleidio, ac yn stori'r ddweud ac yn ddweud o'r pryd i'r cynghwyntau sydd gennymol ar y tro cymdeinbeth sydd wedi'i gweithio'r pryd. O'r ffordd ymddangos, mae'r ffordd o'r ffordd yn ddweud yn ddweud i'r ddweud. 1. Bydd yn golygu'r lleidio'r hollig, 2. Rwy'n gweithio'r progen o'r pryd i'r and proactivity, and third, looking after the wellbeing of officers and staff so they can deliver for the public. As I mentioned, I welcomed the budget announcement yesterday. The improvement on flat cash is a recognition of our track record on reforming to maintain capacity and improve service while returning savings to the public purse. A revenue uplift of £74.5 million allows us to restart officer recruitment for the year, fund the cost of this year's 7% pay award for officers and staff, and make a credible pay offer in the coming financial year. A pension rebate in the region of £17 million next year will support us to progress a programme of voluntary retirement and redundancy. Our capital allocation was enhanced by £13 million, a welcome improvement, although our capital allocation has been a challenge over a number of years and remains low compared to other police services in the UK. More broadly, it is clear from my early observations since becoming the chief constable that year-to-year budgeting makes it more difficult to effectively plan and deliver change, for example projecting recruitment needs or co-ordinating and prioritising the introduction of new technologies. That cumulative effect slows our ability to transform and give our officers and staff the tools and modern police service needs to keep people safe as effectively and efficiently as possible. Bodyworn video is an example of a complex project that requires IT infrastructure to support storage of footage and data security. To get the maximum benefits we needed in national crime system and partners had to be ready to take evidence right through the criminal justice process. One of my first commitments to my fellow officers and staff when I joined Police Scotland was that we had to push on with the roll-out of bodyworn video. We are moving at pace and I expect the roll-out of bodyworn video to frontline officers and staff to start in the summer. That demonstrates Police Scotland's commitment to playing our part in necessary progress against the entire criminal justice system. I've been meeting with key partners and I believe there is a shared recognition that innovation and improvement must be prioritised and accelerated to support better and quicker court outcomes for victims and to provide efficiency and value for the public. The overtime cost of officers being cited for court with very few of them being called to give evidence is £3 million. This is not a sustainable position financially or operationally. We must reduce council dress days and leave and increase the time officers can spend in communities. The summary case management pilot of which we are a partner aims to improve the summary court process by resolving cases at the earliest opportunity. We're already seeing the benefits and interim evaluation is very positive. This targets domestic abuse cases, reduces trauma for victims and witnesses and allows for a significant reduction in citations, including police officer and other witnesses. Another clear challenge is that policing must reset the parameters of our role in responding to people living with poor mental health. Each year officers deploy to well over 100,000 mental health related incidents. The equivalent work of between five and six hundred full-time officers and in over 87% of these incidents no crime has taken place. Resetting those parameters will help ensure the most appropriate help is provided and allow officers to return to preventing crime and responding to threat, harm and risk as soon as possible after the moment of crisis has passed and public safety is assured. Although I welcome the important uplift in our budget, a changing, ageing population, a cost of living crisis, driving vulnerability and pressure on other services, civil unrest, new laws and increasingly complex investigations all contribute to a growing community need and increasing contacts to policing from the public. The acute pressure on public finances will continue to bring urgency to the important principle that Police Scotland must be efficient and provide as much value to the public as is possible. Police Scotland must focus intensely on our core duties and what matters to the people we serve. If what we do does not protect the vulnerable from harm, prevent crime or support our officers and staff, we will challenge that and redirect resources to prioritise the front line. This work will allow us to develop a new operating model to live within our projected funding while maintaining service to the public by prioritising the front line. Removing back office duplication and creating capacity to deal with new and increasing threats, particularly in the online space. I have directed that we approach change differently, bringing together key experts from different functions across the service to deliver change with agility and at speed, ensuring that Scotland continues to be a safe place to live and work is my commitment and priority as the chief constable. Thank you very much, chief constable. I am sure that we welcome your comments on the police budget that was announced yesterday and some of your other related comments around the budget that you have made in your opening statement. I can pick things up and stay with the budget theme. We are all in the budget space at the moment. I would like to just reference some comments that were made in the SPA's budget proposal for 2024-25. If I can just quote some of the content in the report. The report outlines the significant financial benefit from reform and transformation have already been realised through the creation of a single service, and it is not possible for policing to deliver substantial savings for a second time through efficiency alone. Further significant savings can only be achieved through a redesign of the policing model, which you mentioned underpinned by a reshaping of the workforce alongside targeted action to reduce the overall non-pay cost base. It goes on to say that it is recognised and accepted that more can be done to reshape and resize policing to ensure the most effective and efficient use of its resources aligned to policing priorities. Certainly, from the committee's scrutiny of the policing budget requirement for next year, we very much recognise those remarks in that position. I wonder if you could maybe just set out a bit more on what you consider a redesigned policing model that would look like for Scotland. The first 10 years of bringing the eight forces to one police Scotland has generated £2 billion worth of savings to the public purse. During that time, my predecessors and my colleagues have spent time developing national capabilities that meet threat and harm across the country, ensuring that, regardless of where you are in the country, you are able to access specialist policing capabilities. Should you be the victim of serious crime, should you need support on the roads, there is a national capability that provides that service to you. I see that the next phase of reform, taking very seriously our responsibilities in relation to an efficient and effective police force, looks across what we call the local policing footprint of Police Scotland and seeks to identify what a new operating model would look like so that we can live within our means, recognising what the national finances look like. This year and this budget announcement yesterday allows us over the next 12 months to reshape and redesign local policing. We are able to do that because in those 10 years technology has advanced and last week we got to the point where we now have a national crime system. For the first time we are able to look across the whole of the country and we can see we have full visibility on one crime system. That has brought new ways of working, efficiencies and just one example where the arrangements at a local level can now be reshaped and redesigned in light of investment in technology. When I talk about local policing I do not just mean neighbourhood community policing, response policing, our investigators and our significant contribution played by number of police staff who provide very vital services to make sure that the business of policing can continue. We are also looking in our corporate world and again looking to drive efficiencies, some driven by improvements in technology and in many cases looking at where services are delivered at a local level. Can it be done regionally or nationally? I suppose that that brings me on to my next follow-up question, which is about remodelling the reform agenda in the context of the overall justice system. What if any challenges are there in delivering on your own sort of view of the policing model but bearing in mind that you are one part of an overall broad justice system? Absolutely. I have spent in these first early few weeks, made some months with many of the key partners in the criminal justice space. What I have observed and understand is that there are many areas of good practice and a real willingness to take a system-wide approach to the efficiency and effectiveness of that system. What I have also observed is that the time it is taking for victims to get justice in this system is far too long. There are occasions when not only the victim of a crime but the witnesses, including the police witnesses that I have referred to, are repeatedly being cited to court and not giving evidence. There were lots of really good practice during Covid in this space, so both victims, witnesses, police witnesses giving evidence in court remotely. Some of that practice has been retained but some of it has slipped away. Collectively, the challenge is that the whole system drives forward to speed up justice both from the victim's point of view, from the alleged perpetrator's point of view, and that we drive efficiency so that victims, witnesses, police witnesses are only presenting into court when there is a high likelihood that they are going to give evidence. That takes some adjustment of the way the system, and I have referenced that case management pilot. What that seeks to do is load the evidence at the front of the case so that, if there is strong evidence, that there is an early guilty play. What will support this moving forward is the committee probably familiar with the digital evidence transfer system. That is the digital evidence that we move between the various parties in the system. That is starting to roll out, and I know that there is ambition. It started in a small area, crossing in Dundee. We are looking to move that with partners. We are looking to move that across into one of the bigger areas where we will really see the benefits of being able to both move the evidence, the digital evidence around. What leads to that, of course, is the roll out of body warm video. My experience is that, when you are able to present that evidence at first hearing into the court, you get early guilty pleas, victims get justice and the whole of the system becomes more efficient and more effective. Thank you. My final question is more around timescales. Some reform can move relatively quickly, but other reforms are longer term. What sort of timescales are you looking at broadly in terms particularly for the priorities areas of reform that you are seeking to deliver on? What sort of timescales are you looking at? I ask in terms of the uplift in the budget, so that we are able to maintain a position both in staff and officer numbers. That allows us over the next 12 months to do that redesign and reshaping, so that we know we have an operating model that is fit for meeting the new threats that are coming at us and coming down the track at us, more and more crime committed online, more and more crime where there is a digital element. We are seeing increases in particularly around fraud and we are seeing digital means being used both to exploit people but also provides evidence to us that we need to be able to capture and exploit from an evidential point of view. Our ask was that it gave us the time over the next 12 months to do this reshaping and redesign work, both in terms of accelerating some of the technological areas of change but also what is the workforce that is fit for the future in terms of both meeting threat, harm and risk, maintaining visibility in communities and at the same time playing our part with partners around prevention and problem solving. That is where we want to be. We want to prevent crime and to intervene at an early stage so that we provide the best service for the public and prevent people being victims of crime. On that note, I will open it up to other members and I will bring in Russell Finlay first of all. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning, everyone. Chief Constable, the first headline that you generated was for the misuse of a police car driven by a police officer who was on duty, and any other officer doing this might have expected that their P45 at the Scottish Government and the SPA have forgiven you. I just want to know whether that incident risks compromising you and your relationship with the Government when it comes to asking for more money and other issues of that nature. Just to remind members that the Chief Constable has made a full and unreserved apology to the Scottish Police Authority Board on 30 November. If there is anything further that you wish to add, that is fine, but just to make sure that members are aware of that. Just to reiterate that, I made a full and unreserved public apology. It was an error of judgment which I regret and I apologise for once again to speak specifically to your question. We made a very credible and detailed ask of government in respect of what was required in order to ensure that Police Scotland is able to continue to reform and continue to deliver for the public. I think that the result of that yesterday speaks to the confidence that the Government has in me as a leader of the organisation, but more importantly, the work that has been done by my colleagues over the previous 10 years in bringing about a fantastic national police service to Scotland. Assistant Chief Officer Gary Ridley of Durbin Constabulary is giving Police Scotland unpaid advice, and we only know that because he also got a lift home in the police car. Was this advice anything to do with Police Scotland's budgets or its financial situation? Does his involvement with Police Scotland say anything about your confidence in Mr Gray, for example, or other senior officers in Police Scotland? As I said in my introduction, I want Police Scotland and the previous police forces that I have been involved in and have led to continually improve, looking for best practice, looking for opportunities so that we are both better in the operational space and we are able to drive efficiency for the public purse. Having been in policing for over 30 years, I have a network of people that I know that bring value to policing, and Mr Ridley is one of those people. What was the nature of his advice? The nature of his advice is related to the corporate side of Police Scotland at a time when there were some challenges in bringing this year's budget within the allocation. A lot has been said about the differential in income tax between Scotland and England, which is only going to increase due to yesterday's budget announcement. Are your earnings taxed in Scotland or England? Are your earnings taxed in Scotland or England? You have already spoken about body-worn cameras, and as we know, Police Scotland officers are the only officers in the UK not to have these as standard. There is a bit of a long chronology to this subject of recap very quickly. In 2020, the former Lord Advocate called for them to be introduced. In 2021, the former SNP justice secretary told the committee that additional money had been given for them. In 2022, David Page of Police Scotland told the committee that it was a real weakness that we do not have that basic capability. April last year, we were told the target date for full roll-out was 2027. Rona Mackay in that particular meeting told us that the committee had been talking about body-worn cameras up to six years ago, long before my time here. We have also had commitments from Humza Yousaf that these are a priority. However, after that, Mr Page told the committee that he could not guarantee roll-out would begin next year. I did hear you in your opening statement saying that the intent was now that they would begin roll-out next year. However, for the sake of police officers, who have had to suffer six at least years of hearing about this happening, can you give them any idea of when they are all going to have them? Is 2027 still the likely completion date? Given the scale of the roll-out and our ambition is that every front-line officer has body-worn video and, from what you have described, the issue has come to this committee on a number of occasions. You recognise the benefits of this. However, the scale is such that the actual purchase and deployment of the cameras is probably the easy part of this. What is important is the infrastructure, so the digital platform that the information can be downloaded on to and the security. My colleagues in Police Scotland have taken the issue of the data security, as you would expect, very, very seriously. One of the emerging and increasing threats that we see to any organisation is in relation to cyber security. It was important that not only the infrastructure was right for Police Scotland, but it was nationwide that that infrastructure could feed into the broader criminal justice system. Over and above that, everybody was assured that the security of that data and what is often very sensitive information and personal information were such that we could confidently move forward. The roll-out will begin next summer. In terms of duration, I would need to come back to the committee in relation to that. So, 2027 cannot be confirmed at this point, you come back to us, but in terms of the sensitivities around the preservation of data and the use of this data, all other UK forces have managed this perfectly well for many years. What is uniquely different about Police Scotland? Scale is one issue. The committee will be aware that there have been a pilot in relation to body warm video in Aberdeen, I understand. It is quite straightforward if it is on a small scale, but I referenced earlier the bringing together the eight crime systems and our standard operational crime system into one. It is the building of that infrastructure that needed to take place, which would not be necessarily seen across— I am sorry to interrupt, but that is quite surprising that Police Scotland has been in existence for 10 years, but the eight legacy forces each effectively have their own legacy systems, is that correct? That is correct, yes. All right. It is not your problem, you are new in the job, but have you established why this has not been dealt with sooner? A combination of capital investment and a prioritisation in the sense that priority one 10 years ago was the bringing of the eight to one and ensuring that those national capabilities, if you are the victim of homicide, if you are involved in a serious or fatal road traffic collision—I could go on, but describe that that there is a national response to that. My colleagues have worked really hard to ensure that, regardless of where you are in the country, you get that high quality and high-end service. You mentioned just my European statement. I am Sir Ian Livingstone. Just when he left, he warned that policing is unsustainable under the cash settlement from the Scottish Government, and he said that the Scottish Government had clearly set out its spending priorities. Policing is not among those. Now that you have settled into your role, do you think that policing is a priority for the Scottish Government? We welcomed the settlement yesterday, but none of us are getting carried away that our ask was reasonable in the sense that that provided us some headroom to maintain as we moved into 24-25, and, at the same time, we used this coming year to describe the work around redesigning how we will, what the footprint and the blueprint will be for Police Scotland moving forward. I am confident that there are some efficiencies that we can draw, but, at the same time, we are seeing increases in different areas of criminality. We are always looking forward in terms of what is coming down the track. At the same time, I want to have a real focus around front-line policing, particularly community policing. I see policing as an ecosystem from the visible, what you can see, the visible response and that community policing footprint that we need to maintain and, at the same time, our ability to be able to investigate and protect vulnerable people is probably the less visible part of policing, but it is part of that broader ecosystem. The settlement yesterday provides us with the time and space to redesign and reshape so that we are fit to meet the challenges for the future, recognising the broader financial position of the country. I mentioned that in your opening statement, so yesterday's budget you did not get the full £128 million that you asked for. Does that mean that police numbers are going to fall over the next few months and years as a result of the budget? In your opening statement, you mentioned that you were going to restart recruitment, but you also said that you were still going to progress with voluntary redundancy and early retirement. How is that going to affect police numbers on going? The settlement yesterday enables us to restart recruitment and we'll do that before the end of the financial year. What the settlement does for the next 12 months is it enables us to retain police numbers in the region of 16500, 16600. At the same time, the money enables us to offer a voluntary, severance and redundancy retirement scheme for our police staff. We're going through that process now in consultation with the unions and that will run for the next couple of months. That's part of that reshaping. In some of the areas of criminality, particularly in the cyber and fraud space, we recognise that the workforce needs to change, the skills that are required are different and are developing and are complex. We always want to try and be at least with, if not ahead, of the different ways in which people are committing crimes so that we can keep people safe. The workforce is changing. We need more people to be able to examine digital devices. We need more expertise in relation to fraud and cyber. Increasingly, we are and we need to work with partners, particularly in relation to fraud, banks, HMRC and those other agencies that form that greater picture in terms of our ability to tackle that type of crime. I'm trying to understand why we've still gone through with the redundancy or early retirement, because I'm just thinking that if you're going to restart recruitment, can you focus your recruitment on the skills that you actually need for cyber? Sorry, I might have misled you. The voluntary severance and redundancy in relation is only open to police staff. So non-police officers. So non-police officers? Non-police officers, yes, only open to non-police officers. Right, okay, right, that's all right, that's all right. Thank you. Rona Mackay, I think you want to come in on that. Well, it's a different subject set, okay. Good morning. I wanted to ask you about your approach to tackling violence against women and girls. We have heard at committee from witnesses and victims about poor communication between police officers and them. I wanted to ask if you have what your strategy is for dealing with that, and also if you think that your training, trauma informed training, is adequate and what you've planned to do with that? Thank you. So I talked at the beginning in relation to threat, harm and risk, and day to day, my colleagues will hear me talking about high harm. What I mean by that is, for example, in relation to violence against women and girls. Some of the delays in the criminal justice system speak to the heart of where I think victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence, those women and girls are not getting the justice that they deserve. I will bring in DCC Connors in a moment and she can provide some additional detail, but it is absolutely an area of focus for us. We're working with partners, both across the criminal justice system, but also with groups that support victims through funding, some of which has come through Scottish Government. Our approach has different elements to it, part in relation to upskilling our staff so that we have specialists, both specialist officers, who can investigate these types of crimes, investigate them well, look to identify where we get repeat perpetrators of these types of crime and use our data well in order for us to target those people and, at the same time, provide good support to victims, both in the manner in which we gather the evidence in a trauma-informed victim-centred way, but at the same time are able to support them through both those, like I say, those specialist officers. Our response when somebody first rings us, so making sure that our staff in our control rooms are well informed in this space. There's a programme of training and upskilling. We have many of those elements already existing, but it's a continual and evolving picture and a real focus around trauma-informed and understanding what that means so that we don't revictimize somebody and we are able to support them, gather the evidence appropriately and wrap that care around and compassion around them during the investigation. At the same time, you might have seen some of our media campaigns calling out issues of violence and sexual violence against women and also working with partners, with local authorities, around safe spaces, particularly around issues around night-time economy and where there's potential for individuals to not feel safe. Real drive for us and pass over to DCC. I'm aware of those campaigns and they are very powerful. Just to clarify, the upskilling and the training of specialist officers, is that happening now? Yes, it is. It's just it's on-going. It's definitely happening now. Thank you. To add a little bit to it, in terms of the trauma-informed training, our contact officers in RC3 who take the first calls, it's rolling out so they have thrive training but they're getting trauma-informed training on top of that because from the very first point of contact with a victim we want to be able to make sure that they're looked at from the very beginning. You then have response officers or other officers who actually go and respond, then you have the specialist officers who will take the investigations all the way through to the final stages. So there are a number of touch points where we're doing trauma-informed training. The more specialist you are, the more in-depth it becomes that you understand those elements to it as well. There's also a victim information advice workstream with the COPFS coming back to your question about how are we keeping victims updated? How do they want to be contacted and making sure we're very, very victim-focused? We also have a victim and survivor feedback portal which is a constant loop back into us so we can constantly evolve. We're not waiting for long evaluations. We can do things much more quick time. We also have the Vogue Stakeholder Engagement Forum which is very much with the third sector and other partners. Again, it's getting that feedback. Those are the different levels, particularly in relation to the trauma-informed but also in relation to making sure that we put victims at the front and centre, particularly with contact. One more question. In the last session, legislation was passed to introduce domestic abuse protection orders to remove the perpetrator or the alleged perpetrator from the home. Can you give us an update on the progress of that? Obviously, that significantly impacts what you do. It was seen as groundbreaking legislation so if you could maybe just update us on that. Exactly, as it says, protection orders are exactly what we want victim-focused during the prevention. There are a number of technicalities with that legislation in terms of how they can be bought to court by understanding there needs to be legal representation so there are some complexities around it and that is currently being worked through at the moment with the Scottish Government and a number of other partners around that and then the costs associated with that but absolutely we support it. It's a really good piece of legislation but those are some of the complexities around it for its actual implementation. What's more for you to give any estimated timescale of when that might come into force? I know that that work is really intense and ongoing at the moment. I don't have a timescale but I can update you, I can get some more information and update you on that if you like. Just to continue on that theme, you've mentioned delays in court being a major factor in terms of re-traumatising survivors and victims but you'll know very well because it's I'm sure very similar in other parts of the UK that the experience of victims in relation to police services historically has been poor in relation to violence against women and girls so I appreciate that there is a whole range and raft of work going on. How are you going to evaluate whether the women themselves are finding the service more supportive and more effective? What thought have you given to that in terms of seeing if those changes are working? We would routinely survey victims of crime across a broad range of areas and that data and information is used to inform moving forward so that's everything from what was the speed and the quality of that first interaction with us when somebody rang 999 or 101 to our initial response to the quality of the investigation and as DCC Connors said very much our focus is around continually learning and improving so that those victims do get the service that they require. That's very helpful and one of the frustrations on this committee is sometimes the difficulty we get in having the data shared with us and I very much hope that as somebody new in the post of chief constable that you very much would want to work closely with this committee. I mean many of us were very pleased that a woman was appointed for the first time and you know we would want to have a very strong relationship with all of you. Is that something that you can share with us on an on-going basis, the evaluation to see if there seems to be an improvement of victims experience? In your opening statement there was a lot of mention of change and for a lot of people that will ring along bells because change often means cuts. You've said there's already been £2 billion of savings as a result of the creation of Police Scotland but you've also outlined a number of difficulties that are partly related to the creation of Police Scotland in terms of new systems and in particular body warm cameras so it's not a one-way street, there's problems obviously and a lot of resource has gone into the reorganisation. Do you accept that there is a big gulf between what the public expect from the police and what senior management think are the correct models? A huge frustration that for many people there seems to be less police visibility in their communities and that when they phone the police, maybe for quite a routine matter, the police may see it as quite a routine matter, people don't get the response that they want and that's not necessarily just down to police numbers and there's a big political fight obviously over police numbers. In relation to the most recent announcement in terms of the 29 police stations that we understand are under threat, is that part of a continuing programme where there's going to be further announcements that police stations are going to close and can you give a bit more detail in relation to that because I understand some of these states are old, it may not be fit for purpose, it may be that new facilities are going to be built or are going to be repurposed, whether that's co-location or in other way. Can you give us a bit more detail about that programme? Yes, thank you. So you've heard me talk about a commitment to front-line policing, that absolutely needs to be where we prioritise our resources and you wouldn't expect me to do anything but that. I recognise in terms of talking about change, bringing about change, it creates uncertainty and it creates anxiety but during this financial year in order to bring the budget in line it has been challenging. So our current policing model is not something that we can continue to afford and hence why we need to bring around about that change and like I say one of the best examples is where can we bring the local to the region on the national, talking specifically to the issue of estate. I see the estate changes and rationalisation being part of that broader reform so we still have a state that not only is part of predates Police Scotland, we have a state that predates some of those eight legacy forces. We had in the region of 500 buildings, we have rationalised those down to in the region of 350 but you would expect in order to ensure that we have modern facilities that are fit for purpose, that we are looking all the time to ensure that the estate meets the requirements of policing and in that time we move to more of a mobile workforce. All officers have mobile devices so we are not wedded to the buildings in all cases and of course there are many areas of the business that does need estate and those officers staff are using that on an out allowed. So how many of those 29, what is your understanding in terms of how many are going to be replaced and how many will just not be a facility like that in that community just in broad time? Yes so we are consulting across the board in relation to that so currently of those 29, three are completely vacant and 13 have no public access so we will look to rationise on that but recognising that people feel very strongly in some cases about that estate hence the consultation and it's not something that we will do lightly and all of the divisional commanders are well linked with local councillors, elected officials and other key stakeholders to have those discussions so we make good decisions but at the same time you would expect us to have effective and efficient estate. That means there's a consultation so you'll keep us closely advised. You mentioned the voluntary severance scheme in relation to civilian staff and we know that there's been big redundancies previously with civilian staff often as the support staff whose jobs go rather than officers. That has obviously a massive knock-on effect in terms of the system. Can you give us more information in terms of that scheme and exactly who's going to be impacted in the numbers? I'll bring Mr Gray back in on the estate because he'll add a bit more detail. Currently we're asking for colleagues to indicate if they're interested in the scheme. The funding will allow us to reduce that head count by £178. So colleagues have been asked if they're interested being provided obviously with information around pensions, around what the scheme would mean. There are some areas that we've said because they are key areas in terms of front-line response so our control rooms and our custody staff are not eligible because they have high risk and we need those resources but the scheme is open to everybody other than those two areas and as the early part or turn of the year comes we'll be able to make an assessment as to who will be able to access the scheme, what it means for them on an individual basis and what we need to do in terms of that reshaping. So what kind of jobs do you envisage going then if it's not control rooms? Well it's open across the board. You must have a view as to who you don't need. Sorry say again. You must have a view as to who you don't need. Well it goes to the point in relation to where we're doing, we've got some functions that we may no longer need all that resource because the technology has improved in that space or we're able to rationalise and move like I say from the local to the regional to the national and some of those arrangements are the same as they have been throughout the whole 10 years of Police Scotland. Can I bring Mr Gray in back on this side? Of course. Thank you. It's just in relation to the estate and the 29 buildings and just to give you a bit of a flavour around them. So this isn't about taking police officers out of community so where you've got a bigger site somewhere like Greenock that's on the list, well there is no intention to not have a police building in Greenock. It's about finding an alternative and it's because that building is not fit for purpose, it needs to be something better, something that meets the needs of policing in the 21st century and into the future. If you took the list in Glasgow, there's a number on there that I'm just looking at, I've got to Antio Saracen, Castle Milk and Stewart Street, there will be no less police officers in Glasgow, it's just that we will be able to re-accommodate all police officers within the existing estate and what that reflects is that we have excess accommodation in Glasgow so if you took Dalmanach which is the best quality building that we have in Glasgow, it's somewhere around about 20 per cent occupied. Now a lot of that's to do with changes in working patterns through people working more flexibly post Covid so the opportunity is there for us to fill that building up and get value out of it and that is our intention so that we can then start to remove some of these smaller sites that are old and do not have any economic value in replacing and it allows us to make sure that the estate that is retained is meeting the wellbeing requirements of our officers and staff but they'll still be in the localities and obviously with the more modern work and practices as DCC Graham had said when this was announced around mobility with mobile devices and access to apps and having a better fleet. The intention is that police officers are right in their communities wherever they can be and are not in police stations waiting to be deployed so there's that and then also looking at working with across public sector to get better value so on the list FETIs in Edinburgh is on that list well actually that building it's got issues with RAC it's in really poor condition there's issues around wiring so on but we're looking to see whether there's an opportunity to maybe move into Victoria Key which as you all know is really good high quality accommodation which again meets the wellbeing needs and all the police officers will still be within the city of Edinburgh so this from our perspective we see positives around this and that there's wellbeing gains it's not withdrawn from communities it's about having a fit for purpose estate that actually is starting to move towards being designed for police Scotland as opposed to inheriting something that you know the city of Edinburgh police estate that we have in it is even pre you know loading in borders so you know when you look at where the locations are around Edinburgh that is not a model that represents policing in the 21st century for police Scotland what that represents is how policing was delivered 50 60 70 years ago so we're just looking to modernise sure and in terms of police chief constable yes it's an important issue that people are interested in but i'm keen to bring another members and we can come back to this at the end if we've got time can i bring in John Swinney thank you convener chief constable the i think you'd be very candid with the committee this morning about the fact that your budget ask was essentially met by the government i have to say that rather surprised me given the intensity of pressure on the public finances i think we should acknowledge and recognise as you quite rightly have chief constable the significance of the financial settlement that was delivered but i'm interested in the comments that you said in response to Sharon Dowie that the budget essentially gives you the time and the space to redesign and that's what i'd like to explore because i think the assurance i would like to seek today is that chief that police scotland will be in a position when it comes to further budget rounds where it might not have to make the or will not have to make the significant asks on the public purse that have been met by the government on this occasion because as you quite rightly say the pressures on the public finances are not in any shape or form going to abate in the forthcoming years so i'm anxious to find out how confident we can be that this budget represents the opportunity for you to to give you the time and the space to redesign thank you so this year it has been very apparent that in order to come in within the budget we have had to make decisions in relation to reducing officer overtime that has an operational impact and we've looked at non what we call non pay pay budgets but it's been if you like not not the approach has not been around a redesign it's been around where can we take cost out because the trajectory was an an overspend there are areas of the business of police scotland that look very much as they were when the when the eight became one and therefore it's right and proper having built that national capability and the high end of policing which i've described that we now look very very closely at where we can drive efficiency at a local level particularly in relation to what exists across what we would call not the direct frontline policing but the areas of business that support policing that are valuable that have people who are working very hard for us but at the same time actually when we look at the at the way they're arranged can that be done more more efficiently like i say is there a way of doing on a regional or national basis and we need the time and the space this year this coming financial year in order to look across all of the business and say what is the most efficient and effective way to do that value to the public purse and to your point that we are now not having to come back repeatedly looking for for increases on the budget but to say that the increase is is a maintenance position for us you know given give inflation and given the pay award but we came with a a viable proposition that was met yesterday and we'll now spend well from from from the turn to the turn of the year bringing about the changes that we need to bring about further developing the technology that will bring some of those efficiencies and spending time making sure that we are driving the maximum value for every every pound that's spent by by Scottish Government on behalf of the tax on the tax players thank you for that now obviously what you've covered there and i'd like to explore a little bit further is essentially the internal changes in the operating model that Police Scotland itself can undertake and those will be in some circumstances around working practices and approaches to the management of the estate would i be right in also concluding that the there would be within that the design of that model a recognition that we are we are living in a society that has relatively speaking historically a very low level of crime that needs that i accept that that has to be continually suppressed and prevented i accept that but that the the nature of the level and the character of crime should inform the construction of the police force that we require for the future in terms of the best predictions we can make about those contents of that approach yeah absolutely so um i won't i won't go back over the need to to to be visible and to work in partnership in terms of preventing crime and that's obviously the most effective way of doing of doing business but the same time particularly in the area that DCC Connors leads cyber fraud opportunities to use digital means in which to exploit people to target those who are vulnerable and in relation to offenses particularly against women and girls we are seeing rises in all of those and all of those crimes some of which is is increases as people as as criminals are exploiting technology and some is reporting of crimes that people are coming forward maybe after many years having previously been victimised and feeling that they have the the strength and the confidence in in us and they want and they want and they want justice so those rises are driven through through a number of different different elements we should take we should take some positives from from people moving forward or coming forward having been victimised in the past and feel feel confident that we can support them but at the same time just to give you a further further flavour we may have a domestic violence incident where we've got violence and assault but in in addition to that we'll see elements where there's harassment maybe harassment stalking exploitation so there's a digital investigation to be had alongside the capturing of that physical evidence in terms of police attending a scene and a response to a violent crime. Thank you and if I could so that helps helpfully gives the committee a sense of how you will proceed in relation to issues in connection with Police Scotland. I was interested in your earlier evidence about some of the interactions that you have with other bodies which have an effect on the operational efficiency of Police Scotland. I'm interested to understand how you intend to pursue some of those questions because they strike me as falling into different categories in relation to the welfare of vulnerable citizens for example there is an interaction with the health service and the third sector about how the mental wellbeing of individuals can be supported most of more effectively to try to reduce the crisis intervention of the calling of police forces which in my constituency experience I have seen at first hand which has been appreciated but there will also be examples where for example your officers will have their time frankly wasted by the inefficiency of the the court system so I'm keen to understand frankly how blunt are your conversations with others about how they've got to get their house in order to try to help you improve efficiency within the police service so what's the dialogue like with other parties the Crown the Courts and Tribunals Service or the health boards in Scotland to make sure that there is a combined public sector resource that has been used to its most maximum level of efficiency which can help to reduce the budget asks of Police Scotland in the years to come. I'll talk first to the issues around mental health and crisis. Very recently we convened a forum with partners around mental health laying out the impact on front line front line policing seeking to bring partners around the table. There are pockets of really really good practice. You'll know this committee will know that the provision for somebody who's feeling vulnerable who is in crisis does not meet a threshold around use of police powers in a mental health space or those of social workers or medics but at the same time needs some support. Now the ambition of us collectively should be that those pockets of good practice and often where money is being pooled whether it's through health boards or local authorities that instead of a position where we've got a sort of patchwork quilt currently we move to something that is more sustainable and that the first place that people go to in crisis out of ours is not policing. If you don't mind Chief Constable I'll write to you after this committee with the suggestion of a venture you might wish to visit in my constituency in the city of Perth which absolutely ticks the box that you've just set out but I'm interested in how you're pursuing that systematic conversation because that will involve local authorities, third sector providers, health boards to make sure that this actually happens on the ground and it happens in a more systematic way than in the occasional island of excellence if I could put it that way. Well it's that call to arms and a repositioning of Police Scotland in terms of our response. Now I'm not going to say to this committee or to anybody that policing don't we don't recognise our role in this space but we are we are in there and we are beyond beyond our role and we have become in many cases the default position so in terms to your point around the conversation a call to arms, a broader awareness of where is the good practice, how is that money being pulled together in many occasions, it is where there's pots of money being pulled and that's system-wide approach and being able to demonstrate both the financial benefit but also the benefit to the individuals so they don't end up with policing as the response which in many cases is not adequate or appropriate recognising that in absolute crisis where there's life at risk of course we continue to have a role and we'll always maintain that so it's the call to arms, it's the identification of the good practice and a resetting of our on my position about expectation from partners so that's where that conversation has got to and then in relation to criminal justice a recognition by everybody I've spoken to that we need to work more effectively to drive the speed and the agility with which we're able to process and get justice for victims recognising there's extreme pressure on the prison service and is there the right climate and response to that effort that you're pursuing are all the partners responding in a way that is helpful at this moment yeah absolutely the conversations the conversations are are productive and now you know it was very it was very clear wasn't it yesterday in terms of the settlement that the expectation by by yourselves and more broadly that we we drive these efficiencies particularly across the the justice system and the settlement that we received and others across the justice system was was on the basis that those efficiencies would were evident moving moving forward i move on to the the estate position and i think the statistics it's horrified the statistic that has horrified me the most this morning is the 20 occupancy level of demonic and i'm interested to know what information you can share with the committee about the level of occupancy of and utilization of police premises around the country you are able to give us a figure which says you know it's you know we think the police estate is x percent occupied i'm going to know me immediately to to mr gray if you don't mind yeah thank you for the question and we are working on that at the moment our data has historically been poor in across the estate and that we haven't back to the point around investment in technology there has been no investment in technology in the estate so we don't have an estate system so we're operating off spreadsheets but we're in the process of pulling that together across the country to be able to give data on cost per square meter and occupancy and space per per employee type data that you didn't expect to see anywhere so it's been quite a big task that we've been working on for a number of months and some of this early work that we've done that's resulted in this piece of work around consultation enclosures is the start of a broader piece of work about looking to map out what an optimal model would look like through the development of a master plan for what we think the policing footprint should look like across the country into the future so that's something that we are developing and once we have a first iteration of that which I have committed to the SPA we will have by the end of this financial year I'd be happy to share it with committee members that'd be helpful because I think I can think in my own the communities that I represent a particular proposal in relation to co-location of police and local authority services which I'm very keen to encourage so I use my opportunity here convener to try and just nudge that along a little bit but you know it either significant opportunities for the release of sites that could be of enormous strategic importance for example in the fulfilment of social housing objectives that many of us would want to see taken forward so that analysis would be very helpful but it does take me on to my last point which is about the urgency and the necessity of advancing on this agenda because you know I've read too many submissions in my time and I've seen some of them come to this committee in the short period I've been here which basically say we cannot possibly make any more savings because we're absolutely up against it you know we need to have more money because we've exhausted all the savings and then I hear today Dalmanach is 20% occupied and I think the exercise that you're going to do which I welcome will probably throw up quite a lot of other data of that similar nature so I simply come back to where I started which is about the necessity of viewing this year as having given the police service the time and the space to redesign because I think to be frank and candid the sense that the only answer to the challenges is more money it's just it's just not going to fly in years to come because the public finances are under such pressure so I hope this exercise will help to inform public debate about some of the realities that have got to be confronted here. Absolutely and I hope that both this committee and and more broadly there was a recognition that our our submission was well thought through in the sense of we recognise the broader picture and there will be opportunity for us this this this year and that was the basis on which we asked for the money to maintain the current arrangements and and and I was to to to carry out and bring about the change that's going to be required so we can live within our means. Thank you convener it was just just to add to that I mean absolutely I mean that that is the basis on which we made our submission as a spend to save to buy time to be able to to look to see how we can make ourselves sustainable in our own right the estate is a component part of that the point I would make is back to capital so if I was to take maybe what you may have been referring to is we're looking for it as it's not yet it's not in our papers but we're looking across the entire country around the estate and looking at we've got issues in forfer we've got leaks after after the storm a bit we've got issues in Dundee around Custody West Bell streets a former headquarter building not really suitable for what we need in Dundee and we need a custody solution and obviously that would unlock potentially a solution in Perth during potentially co-locating with a local authority but it's all these parts trying to bring them together to get to a coherent solution which may be that we need a criminal justice facility somewhere around about Dundee but that in the context of our capital investment it's a non-starter so we're looking to see what other options there are but again it's just it's at that point if we were able to get some capital as an investor save it would help to unlock some of these things. Forgive me, convenes. There is also an important point about partnership though in this exercise that if we just view that all these solutions have to be found from within the police capital budget the dynamics of budget changes will never provide for that but at the same time as Police Scotland is getting whatever its capital budget is 64.6 million pounds local authorities will be getting I would think 10 times that in capital budgets so trying to find some ways through this by collaboration with local authorities is absolutely fundamental to this exercise and I think it has to be thought through in that broader context than quite simply we must only look at the police capital budget and how can we enhance all of that. I completely agree with that and we are speaking with local authority partners regularly and where we can our first choice our preferred option is to co-locate so we have been having discussions for example in Dundee with Dundee city council about Dundee house and other sites but there are certain facilities and it's custody that's the big one and that's something that you know we maybe need to pick up and have further conversations in the context about how some of these specifics like custody or productions or morturies because there's one of those in West Bell Street as well that if we find that specific policing solutions for those then it unlocks the opportunity to co-locate in Perthunconross council and in Dundee city council potentially into Angus council but you're right it needs to be cross sector and that is the commitment that we have and we are having those ongoing dialogue with local authority and NHS partners. Can I just add you know you'll be aware we've got I think 60 or so joint you know where we've got joint occupancy joint joint buildings with with police officers goes a lot of additional requirements in the sense of joint joint estate so you know that that needs to feature in our considerations. Before I move on to my main line of questioning if it's all right with you convener I'd like to just follow up on the estate issues which aren't being talked about just now I was glad unless I missed it and I'm going to get hit with bad news today but I was glad to see that there was no Lanarkshire closures planned and I think that's right given the distance between the Lanarkshire police stations and also the unique nature of the all the individual towns but it did straight come to me that you know perhaps the opposite question of what you've been getting today is a lot of these buildings in Lanarkshire the one in Coatbridge for example the one in nearby Airdrie they're very old so there's no scope for that amalgamation like you've got in Glasgow for the officers and the staff to move in to good new buildings the options just not there because it's not like Coatbridge is good then Airdrie can move down or vice versa is there any thoughts in terms of when you'd be developing how you're going to look at that in Lanarkshire because I think I'm just trying to think of the common old one maybe I'm not too sure on that but the vast majority of them are old buildings yeah thank you convener so they are and as I say we're developing a master plan for the entire country and Lanarkshire we have been doing work on that and being speaking with partners both in north and south Lanarkshire councils and as well as the fire and rescue service around some of their estate in Lanarkshire as well and you're right in that again just the point I was making earlier on is that there is consideration obviously taken to where geographically there needs to be there are certain sites that we will always have and you know speaking regularly with Q division in Lanarkshire around what what the sites are because it requires those operational requirements coming in about where the locations need to be and for how many officers and what type of officers but what we are looking to do is as I said in my previous responses to look to see where we may be able to in certain circumstances partner with local authorities around some of that accommodation and and that again will be built into this master plan which we will share with the committee in due course which will be a consultative type document that's not a you know we're developing proposals but you're right about the nature of of of Lanarkshire and obviously you know looking at the early work that's come through there will always be a requirement to have a policing building in in certain of those of those localities okay thanks very much for that I thought that was quite good to do the opportunity to put that in the record the main question I wanted to ask that refers back to the 2020 report that was carried out by Dame Elish Angiolini when she done the review into the police and obviously you be well aware of that review and she found well I'm actually going to quote here that she was extraordinarily depressed but here in accounts of discrimination within police Scotland and I know that that's something that the previous chief constable had acknowledged just prior to him actually leaving the service and I think you've you've also acknowledged it yourself chief constable that I'm just wondering if you can tell committee what you feel requires to be done around the culture within the organisation and if you've got any plans to drive that work forward thank you you may you may also have seen I think mr nailer was here in relation to the the cultural report that HMIC CS that they that they did and just to pick up to pick up some of the themes in relation to people not feeling that they were being treated as as individuals poor application of policies that led to feelings of inequity and and and discrimination um so um key key key work that's that's ongoing in that space um I think um what's important and in order to address many of those of those cultural cultural issues is that people feel as though they have a voice they do feel as though they're um their treatise as an individual and that they are well led so what is the quality quality of the leadership and that's and that's from the sergeant to to myself and and throughout throughout the organised organisation um and we have embarked um an awesome way along a program extensive program around leadership called your leadership matters it is a values based approach and it talks around um collaboration it talks about um development of um leadership skills that um talk to and and identify that um not only do leaders need the technical skills in order to deliver policing but they need those people those people skills in supporting supporting colleagues so that program's ongoing is values based um very much with a human rights focus in addition to that pieces of of work and training around unconscious bias and Police Scotland is made up of of of the communities um of of the country and and we all come based on on our experiences um important that we're able to to have those conversations about where do those biases exist do we recognise them um and that and that again that program is ongoing another strand in relation to discrimination and inequality relates to issues of poor behaviour and misconduct and what we're seeing is an increasing um calling out of poor behaviors by colleagues I think that's a positive thing that people have the courage to do to do that um and in addition to that more transparency where we are taking formal action against colleagues against officers and staff that it's transparent to the organisation what the consequences of those poor behaviors are so it's ongoing work we're not we're not we're not there we're not there yet but a really a real strength and willingness um and following Sir Ian's declaration my my um my reflection on it is that those conversations are very live in the organisation um and and you know people are we we colleagues uh we were with um the Federation and the Supers Association last week at our at our regular our regular meeting with them and we were talking about all of these issues and the way people people feel within the organisation and I um spent a couple of hours um with um colleagues from from one of the support associations in a in what we call the truth to power um meeting and there were some uncomfortable um descriptions of of the treatment that people had been subject to within the organisation really important that we that we hear that how are we to go to the how will we we know when we're you know we're improving um a lot of that will be through the survey survey work that we conduct and listening to how people feel those pieces of all that data indicates that women and people that have disabilities within the organisation feel as though they are not treated in all cases fairly so that's an area that we need and we would I'd want to see see progressing well thanks very much for that very frank and robust response and actually I was going to my follow-up question was going to be to ask how how you would review it to find out when you're at the right place but you've went on to answer that so I'll just finish in terms of that line of questioning by saying that the Equalities and Human Rights Committee in this parliament is interested in looking at that area as well I sit in that committee as well and I know that they'll the convener and the clerk from that committee will be we'll look to to that response today to to see if that helps and direct any future work but I really thank you for that frank response you've not tried to hide anything in that and I just want to say as well that everybody around this table knows that it's not necessarily the majority of individual officers who are doing a fantastic job up and down up and down the country but what was identified in the report and said by the previous Chief Constable on yourself is more of an institutional culture and I think actually Dame Angelina referred to it as a cafe culture at one point in her report as well so thank you very much for that. I've got one more question. Can I just come back? It's an organisation of 21 and a half of thousand people you know the vast vast majority of people conduct themselves professionally they are very very competent they are very compassionate they have a real sense of public service and that's evident to me when I've sat with teams of frontline officers with detectives with those working within more specialist areas of the business and through that work that I've described those conversations are real and vibrant and there's a real willingness that people feel absolute sense of being part of this organisation and they have a voice in the organisation just important for me to say that. Thanks and that certainly reflects my experience as an MSP with police officers I meet through my job and also people that I know of, so thank you very much for saying that. Commander there was another area I wanted to go into trauma informed practice is that right? Not standing in your toes there, not that you know of. The other area I wanted to ask you about as well Chief Constable was the trauma informed practice of the police. It's something that we are hearing a lot more about as we're taking different bills through the Parliament, the current bill that we're taking through the Victim and Witnesses Bill actually has a specific section around trauma informed practice for the various justice organisations. I just wanted to I think and we've heard some evidence already that there's good practice within the police around trauma informed practice if you look at the joint investigative interviews for example that is a key one but there's other areas where things could perhaps be better in terms of dealing with victims and witnesses as they interact with the justice system. Can I just ask what your early thoughts on this area are and what you think maybe needs to improve or what's already good and can be built upon? Some key parts of the bill that we would be very supportive of particularly in relation to supporting victims through the justice system so that they're well informed and there is the recognition of the impact of being a victim of crime and that criminality and how that presents in terms of people's vulnerability and needs. We've described earlier when we were talking about violence against women of girls, lots of really really positive work, lots of that in partnership with criminal justice partners and other agencies that support in this space. I think the challenge and what does excellence look like, it's consistency, it's consistency. So from the point at which you contact us all the way through is the service that you receive of a consistent and high quality level and that's our challenge and that's our challenge and that's why many areas of this we've made really good progress but it is a continual development and continue to keep the awareness and the pressure around this because we're bringing new people into the organisation all the time, we are learning, we are learning more and more all the time, we're responding to new pieces of legislation and all of that has to be continuous improvement so that there is a consistent and high quality service. I don't know whether DCC Connors wants to come in. I think the only thing I would add is linking back to the culture work that you were just talking about, your reference, obviously internal culture very much affects how that then reflects into the external, how we treat communities, how we treat victims. So you know as has already been covered about the trauma informed but I think that much broader cultural work that is on goings through police gotten changing attitudes, changing understanding, changing knowledge levels, all of that will also support victims and that trauma informed and understanding different people's experiences so I think the two pieces will come together. Okay thank you, I'm just aware of the time chief constable. I've got one more question that I would like to ask and I think a couple of members would like to come in with very brief follow-up questions so if you've got scope to stay with us for a few more minutes that would be greatly appreciated. So I'd like to just pick up on a point that John Swinney brought in earlier and also reflect back on your opening statement in which you spoke about the significant resource implications arising from responding to people in distress and I hope I'm quoting you correctly, you spoke about 100,000 incidents that officers and staff had responded to in the last year I think that that's what you said and that was equivalent to around about 500 full-time officers so clearly there's a budget implication in and around that and it's good to hear about the work that's underway to address this. One of the other factors that we're aware of in this space is the reluctance of officers to walk away if you like from a person. It doesn't fit with the reason they joined Police Scotland which was to make life a bit better for people but there's also a fear of the repercussions if something goes wrong. I'm interested in how you intend reducing the demand that we've already spoken about but at the same time enabling and empowering officers and staff to perhaps take a different approach than that that they've taken up to date without being worried about getting it wrong so one of the things I don't think we've really spoken about this morning is training which I would see as being absolutely crucial to giving them that confidence but also the skills to do that and perhaps just touching on what Fulton MacGregor spoke about was a culture shift so I'm interested in how you intend doing that. You pointed there to the training from your previous knowledge which is very important. Policing is subject to a lot of scrutiny by many different agencies that's right and proper it's public money and we have a really important role particularly in relation to threat and harm and crisis. Just to lay out a position in relation to supporting people in crisis it's right and proper that we are involved and that people feel that they can turn to us in crisis but what we see and some of the data that I've presented to this committee today highlights not only are we responding but we are then the service that Cares supports for many many hours that individual and that has and this is well documented and you might have seen the BBC coverage they were out with frontline officers last week in Edinburgh and what you saw there were people who were suffering had come to us we had responded but that was hours and hours of time and to your point around fear of impact there are examples where members of the public following involvement with the police have gone on and taken their own lives but policing has a very very broad responsibility and I need to give courage to particularly frontline sergeants and inspectors that they are able to say to their officers you know we need to come away from that incident now we've taken the individual to A&E they're waiting to be seen or we've taken them to another location waiting to see a mental health professional and we need to come away because we've got no right to detain that person and they're not they're not involved in criminality they are vulnerable and in that talking to your point in relation to training giving people the courage and the skills so I would describe frontline sergeants and inspectors we need to give them the skill and the courage and my support to say policing has a broad role we cannot devote hours and hours to that one person when you look across the whole you know in any one evening in any one hour now today you know we will have calls from people where they're victims of crime we'll have calls people who need our support on the road network we'll have calls from people who will come to us and say I was a victim victimised many years ago but this is a very complex issue for me and I'm calling you now we need to be able to respond to all of those calls but because of scrutiny and because it's right and proper that should something fatal happen to a loved one of any of us and the police had an involvement you would want to know the circumstances around that but at the same time we we have a culture which is based in a good place wanting to do the best for an individual but such that we you know our resource is skewed into that space and we need to give our sergeants like I say our sergeants and our inspectors the courage to say it's okay to walk away and leave that person in that A&E department because actually we've got all these other demands on us and people that need our time and our professionalism so that's an ongoing convener that's an ongoing conversation dialogue and our response to unfortunately where there is there are catastrophic consequences that individuals determine that they can't continue to live and they take their own lives that we're able to support our colleagues in saying of course somebody will want to know the circumstances but you haven't done anything you haven't done anything wrong and our experiences you know 99.999% of the time that is the case we are trying to do the best thing officers are trying to do the best thing that was evident in that BBC article last week but there there isn't the same ability to provide immediate support to people in crisis as we see maybe through physical physical issues that thanks that's a really comprehensive overview and I think we don't really have time to follow up this morning but I think one of the things for me is the ability of officers to transfer care of a person elsewhere and elsewhere nine times out of 10 will be health and social care services so I'm very interested in what level of engagement health and social care have participated in with with Police Scotland because I see that as absolutely key but I'm sure we'll come back to that further down the line so I'm going to bring in a couple of members just with if please very brief questions supplementaries and then we'll have to bring the session to a close so firstly Katie Clark I think if you're wanting to come in so I wasn't expecting to come back I was going to ask about the drug consumption room issue and maybe just very briefly I just wondered what your approach was going to be in relation to policing of the drug consumption room pilots that are proposed I'm going to ask the committee connoisseur to come in on that just so that we're absolutely accurate in terms of our our dialogue with the Lord Advocate in this space thank you yeah so and you know we have been talking about it you know we understand the Lord Advocate's guidelines however we do also have a duty in the law so if there are offences that are being committed that are serious and we need to deal with those then we would need to need to deal with them so whilst we completely understand the Lord Advocate's guidelines and the drug consumption rooms and the concept of it if there are serious offences and we are called to a premises we will need to establish the facts understand what needs to be done and then take the appropriate action within that as well but we are looking at the more serious offences that will give rise as a result of a situation that came from that so we understand the thresholds and the guidance but as police officers we will always have to respond to calls for assistance and then base our actions on the facts in front of us thank you okay thank you I think John Swinney you want to just bring in I wonder deputy chief consul if I could just pursue that just a little bit further because I would be right to take from your comments in response to Katie Clark's question that you will essentially your officers will be going with the grain of the Lord Advocate's guidance but you will be keeping a watchful eye for anything that is not consistent with those guidelines so I'm trying to just I'll spit it out I suppose I take it please Scotland will give this proposal given the Lord Advocate's position a fair wind yeah absolutely thank you that's that's yeah absolutely and we understand absolutely the parameters and what the Lord Advocate has set out completely but as ever in policing if a situation arises that it doesn't fit within those guidelines or is so serious that we would need to deal with it we would always reassure people that we would respond but but absolutely within those parameters we understand but I think I think part of what I think underpins the question that Katie Clark puts in very much my view as well that we we we would want we completely and utterly understand and accept and don't in any way question the the the proper role for the policing upholding the rule of law but it's about doing that in a manner and a style on this particular issue that essentially enables the policy intent of the proposal to be able to give them to be given the maximum opportunity to thrive if that is possible yeah absolutely understand that and that's what we will do and as as the complexities as we go through it's not you know we also have to respond to the communities in the area surrounding it it is a very complex thing but yes absolutely we want the opportunity for people and the drug consumption rooms to to undertake the role that they've been given to support the public absolutely thank you and a very very final quick question from Russell Finlay Q I mean I was going to ask you about the comments you made about the culture earlier on but I think we've got time so instead focus on the estate issue I mean I share John Swinney's incredulity about Dolmarnock I mean this is a police station that's less than 10 years old it costs £24 million yet it's 80 empty now going back to the budget in the submission to the committee police Scotland said it needed 463 million pounds capital funding for the next five years yesterday you were given 64.5 which is significantly less but once these closures have been implemented the question is once this is all done can you rule out any further closures they as I said earlier on that the master plan that we're developing is to look to develop a blueprint that meets the needs of police Scotland into the future so on that basis we couldn't rule out any closures but closures doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't necessarily be replacements or locations because as I said previously there will still be you know the the the estates issue does not change the profile of how police officers are deployed within communities that's a separate issue for the chief constable around how resources are allocated around the country for operational reasons but the estate won't have an impact upon that but in short the answer is at this stage no we couldn't say beyond those 29 that there wouldn't potentially be further ones beyond that for example west bell street in Dundee that we spoke about is maybe something down the line but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't be seeking to have either a co-location with Dundee city or or some other alternative arrangement so that we still have a physical presence and the master plan stroke blueprint means people will start working at a demonic and that absolutely i mean that that is the best asset that we have in Glasgow and we want to make sure we're maximising that and if we can't do so ourselves because we don't have the numbers to do it then we would look to partners to see whether we could either bring in local authority or other public sector partners and potentially third sector and so on beyond that so an example in in these proposals is that this police authority are currently in pacific key in Glasgow and at least we would be looking to bring those in all the staff that are into delmanic onto the onto the ground floor and we are building plans out to fill that building up because absolutely we need to make absolutely maximise the use of that asset thank you thank you very much okay i think we'll draw our session to a close there thank you for your forbearance and staying on with us and so thank you for joining us and for the evidence that you have provided the committee this morning so i'm sure that members will have noted my obvious omission earlier on but can i just ask members if you're happy for us to take item 3 in private which i have to ask thank you so that completes our final business in public for the year and i'd like to take this opportunity of wishing our witnesses this morning members, parliament staff, police officers and staff, fire and rescue service and everyone working in the justice sector a very happy and peaceful festive season so on that note i'll bring the public meeting to a close thank you again thank you