 And welcome back to DEI Matters, Conversations with Margaret Creedle-Thomas, and I am so excited today that I have two people from the town of Arlington. I am going to have them introduce themselves because we're going to really get into some serious conversations today with them. So Adam and Christine, thank you for being here today with me and taking time out of your busy schedule. And so I want you to introduce yourself to our community, and as you introduce yourself just let us know what led you to Arlington, what led you here to work here. Great. So I'll go ahead and start. Thank you so much for having us, really appreciate being here. So I'm Christine Bunjourn, I'm the Health and Human Services Director here in Arlington. I've been in my role, I've been in Arlington for almost 22 years, and I started out after college doing community organizing, actually in the city of Fall River, which is where Adam comes from, but I was working as a community organizer around environmental issues. And what I realized at that time was that public health was really sort of more where I could see myself fitting in because people were more interested in their own health as opposed to the health of the environment around them. So that was how I became interested in public health, and I found Arlington as a community that really cared about those types of matters, and also just a community that has a lot of caring people. So it's sort of what led me here to Arlington. Wow. Yeah. So you've been here 22 years? Yes. Yes. Yes. Adam, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So my name's Adam Chapter Lane. I serve as town manager here in Arlington. I've been in the town manager role for 10 years, and I served as the deputy town manager for two years before that. So I'm about 10 years minus Christine's tenure here. Before that I worked for the city of Fall River, which is also where I grew up, and before that I worked in the state legislature. And so I've been sort of that public service person throughout my career. And what led me to Arlington was I was interested in moving on beyond the role I was serving in in Fall River, and other people working in local government management saw this deputy town manager position opened and said Arlington is known as one of the best, if not the best places in terms of local government management. You should throw your hat in the ring. And I had the good fortune of being offered the position and have now been here since then. So it is a tremendous community and I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity here. Yeah. And you're about to leave and we'll get into that a little bit later. So I recently been working more with you all as Jill Harvey is the DEI director for the town and I'm the DEI director for the school and Jill and I have been working very closely with one another and we had made the decision and we needed to be meeting with the people that we come to, you know, I don't want to say supervised because I just feel like, but you all are ones that that we come to that you all are you are giving us the, are kind of what am I trying to say, you know, what we need to do in regards to DEI. That DEI we say that right, diversity, equity, inclusion. What does that really mean? What does that mean to both of you all when we say diversity, equity and inclusion? I'm all about language lately and in getting to the understanding that just saying the word you're going to have a different definition than I am. So I really wanted to know what does that mean for you both of you all when we say that. Sure. Yeah, I mean, so I think about different things for each of those words, right? And I think to some degree that's the point of having all those words in the title of this work. And when I think about diversity, I think about the fact that we're stronger for our differences, right, that we will do better, we'll have better context, we'll have better perspective if we have differences among us, whether they be opinions or race or ethnicity or socioeconomic background, differences make us stronger. And that's what I think about when I think of diversity. When I think of equity, I think about the fact that not everybody needs the same thing based on the circumstances of their life. And that equality is a founding ideal of this country, but it's different than equity. And there are times we're giving everybody the same thing as the right to do, a right thing to do, but more so as we all continue to learn on our DEI journey, equity much more often is the right thing to do because people are starting from different places. And in terms of inclusion, I think about the word welcoming and I think about the word belonging, but I have to work to make sure that that's not assimilation, right, that inclusion isn't taking the diversity and making everybody the same and making everybody kind of assimilate to the same thing. Inclusion is welcoming that diversity into the organization and benefiting from the richness of those diverse opinions while still having everybody feel like they belong there. When you were talking about that, my family's were truckies and I was thinking about the Borg when you said assimilation, they always were looking to assimilate and to be the same and I really appreciate how you're like diversity means differences, right? That can mean language, that can mean background, that can mean ethnicity, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, I mean when we were looking to create this division within Health and Human Services under Adam's leadership, you know, we really were trying to figure out what to call it in these three words I think really best represented what we were hoping to get out of the role and really what I see that division doing is really making sure that we're including people from all different parts of our community and to really honestly hear from them and to let them participate, to have everyone participate in making decisions and making changes that will be important for the future of our community. I know that the town is about to go into doing their own equity audit. Dylan and I have talked a lot about that, so that should also bring more of how do we do diversity, equity and inclusion for the town. Thank you. What do you all feel is the biggest challenge in building equity in Arlington? Why don't you go first this time? You know, I grew up in Watertown, which is just a few towns away, and it's really similar community to Arlington. And you know, I think that there's a lot of pride in this community. A lot of people are proud to be from Arlington or to be a part of this community. But there are definitely people that are new to Arlington. And you know, I think what can be somewhat of a challenge is, you know, you hear from different voices within a community about different topics. And you know, I think one challenge is really trying to get, you know, to bring people into the middle and to try to hear not the loudest voices, not the loudest voices on either side, but really to get consensus. And I think what's hard sometimes is, sometimes it's just in government we hear from, you know, some of the loudest voices, which aren't always the most important decision-making, you know, the voices to hear and making decisions. But I think some of the challenges, you know, sometimes people feel that, you know, we're a diverse community. We're, you know, we're happy and we're proud of that. But there's so much work to be done. I mean, we've seen just over the past few years some of the issues that have been discovered across the country as far as, you know, equity. And I think it's no different here. I think there's so much work to be done. And I'm excited about the equity audit to see what the gaps are. And where we can really focus our energy. So, yeah, yeah. I mean, so I would offer three things when I think about that question. And the first is more personal. And that is, as a white person doing this work, it will be forever challenging to make sure you're always confronting yourself with your own bias, your privilege and all of the things that you've, you know, the collectively we've all internalized growing up in this society. Right. And it's, it is a forever journey as far as I see it, because you can't, you might think you're at a point and then you're going to get to another point, you have to challenge yourself again. And that's hard to do, right? And that's, I acknowledge it's hard for me. And I think it's hard for other people in the organization who work for the town, as well as people who live in the town to continually challenge themselves to confront, you know, confront the tough stuff in the tough history of this nation. So I think that's a core or fundamental challenge we face. But then I also think about our, the challenge of properly focusing on systems. It, it is very easy and appropriate to criticize individual decisions. It's certainly appropriate to focus and criticize potentially overt racist actions, but we're not really ever going to achieve change if we don't identify systemic instances of inequity and eradicate them. And that's long duration hard work. There's, and there's no easy wins, right? There's no like day where you just celebrate that it's over. That's a, it's a lot of work and you have to commit to it. And I find that that's a fundamental challenge. I don't think it's unique to Arlington, right? I think that is like a way to describe the challenge. But I see it here that we have to focus on systems. And I think on the other end of that, we're always going to have to do work to convince some people that this work is even necessary, as Christine talked about. So that has been a challenge. When I talk to people in other cities and towns and roles similar to mine, they face the same challenges, maybe more so in other communities, because Arlington is a fairly progressive community, but we'll still always have to educate and bring people along as to the why. And I think that those three things together are how I think about the challenges around DEI. Yeah, I mean, I, every time I speak to anyone that, that we have these conversations, I always say that we have to know who we are when we come into our spaces. Because I know from me being a woman of color and the way I was raised and, you know, having a Honduran mother, that I bring those experiences with me and you, those are how you sometimes make decisions from those lenses. And sometimes that could be a bias for me, right? And that you really have to understand what those biases are. And how do you, how do you, like, do that calculus in your head of, like, of saying, like, am I making a decision from bias? Or am I making a decision that is really equitable, right? For everyone is just really important. The other thing that you said about the systems, I, that's where I'm starting to land. It is about systems. I think what we don't say is that, you know, you know, people are like, glad there's a DEI director now in the school and we have a DEI director in the community. And, you know, as Jill and I have had conversations like, but this has been going on for over 400 years. So whatever we're going to do is going to take time. And I've been using the analogy of a garden, you know, that there are some beautiful things that are growing in Arlington as a whole. And there are some things that we need to look at and see, like, is that the vegetation that we need now? Or is that in the right place to be growing, right? Because as I'm learning is that certain things need to be growing together in order for them to thrive. And so when you have to uproot some things, I always tell people, you wear different clothing, right? You're not going to wear your suit at them. You know, right? You're going to put on maybe some jeans and boots and we have gloves and you're going to really dig deep to get to the root of the problem so that the root, if you don't get to the root, then it grows again, right? And so I think we have to constantly keep saying that to people both for you all, thinking about your job responsibilities. What does, I just saw this quote the other day, James Baldwin's quote, and I thought this would be great for you all to ask you. And the quote says that not everything faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it's faced. What does that mean to you when you think about that quote? You want to go first? Yeah, so I've seen that quote before and it always moves me because it's so simple but powerful. And I think it does a great job of describing the work before us that there's going to be things we lose on, right? There are going to be things we face that we can't impact and that's okay. And that shouldn't detract us from continuing to face difficult things. And then on the balancing side of that, understanding that nothing is going to change if we don't face down some of these real facts. And I think that, you know, to tie back to your gardening analogy, all right, you garden your hands get dirty, right? And it doesn't always go well, right? It can be too dry or too wet. You don't always get the outcome you want, but you're never gonna get to that outcome of fruits or vegetables or whatever you're gardening if you don't do it. If you don't do that work and do that work over time. So I think it's a tremendous call to action that this work is not easy. It can be very hard and at times even traumatic, but that if we don't do it, then we're gonna be at status quo. Yeah, I just want to get back a little bit to you saying the ground. The ground could be hard, right? It could be so in the tools that you have to use to dig up the ground, right? And that's where people, you can get tired. And so that's why you need people to do this work with you to dig up that ground. And then what nutrients do you need to make the ground fertile and softer to plant what you need? Yeah. And going back to your point about time, it's not something that can be fixed overnight. You can't just hire a DEI director and say we've solved our problems, right? I think that's something that's hard for people to understand is just that it took us 400 years to get here and it's going to take a very long time to move the needle in. It's every conversation, every program, every step we take, we have to be constantly thinking that this is, hopefully we're getting closer to helping make changes. And that equity belongs to everybody. It does, yeah. It doesn't just belong to Jill Harvey because she's a DEI director. It doesn't just belong to Margaret because now she's a DEI director. And as Jill and I have a running joke and it would be great to have a department, right? It's that kind of like changing people's mindsets about this work and what does that really mean? What does that quote mean to you, Christine, when you think about it? I take it very literally similar to Adam. I mean, I think it is definitely a motivation to just keep trying to move that needle, really trying to continue to do the work because nothing will change unless you do it. And I do appreciate the work of James Baldwin. I think he lived a very difficult life and I think to think about that quote and the work that we do and the work that we try to push out through our community, I think it's important to just continue to focus on those efforts. Yeah, yeah. Um, Christine, what was one of the biggest challenges during the height of the pandemic? So March comes, I'll never forget March 12th. Dr. Bodie at the time called the emergency admin meeting. I think she had been in conversations with you and made a decision that we were gonna close for two weeks and reassess, right? And so I was like, okay. And at the time I was having a staff meeting, I was like, just get what you all need to get. Let's, you know, let's go. And then March turned into April and April turned into May and May turned into June. And I did not step back into my office until June and it was very eerie to step back into my office and see March 12th. It was one of those, you know, movies that it was like everybody else was gone and then you come back and it was, and I was like, it was, it was just like, wow, I had just left everything the way it was. So I can just imagine what was life for you? It was pretty hectic. I think, you know, you said that, you know, I had been in touch with Dr. Bodie. I think there was a whole team of us, which, you know, Adam was a part of as well. It was a major challenge. It was something that in public health we only planned for. We never expected it to happen. But we, you know, here in Arlington, I think we did a pretty decent job in trying to make assessments of the situation based on data and information that was available. I think, you know, one of the challenging parts that I look back at, we had just hired Jill Harvey and we were so passionate and excited about really kind of just drawing a roadmap to making changes in our community around DEI and then the pandemic happened. She was in her role for less than three months and, you know, again, it was, we thought two weeks and it was two months and it was two years, right? So she's been working in this environment for two years and she's been doing amazing work. But I think when I look back, one of, from a DEI perspective, one of the biggest, the saddest parts of the pandemic was just really how our Asian community was treated, I think, in the early stages. I think to some of the stories that I heard from parents and from neighbors and residents, just in general, and restaurant owners and business owners, it was really hard and I think that was really sad to know that that was happening in our community. Yeah, it's how we attribute things to a race and think it's everyone and that's where this work comes into play and we, stereotyping, right, comes into play, yeah. Yeah, you said two years, it's interesting because sometimes our numbers go down really well and I was just talking to somebody today where they're like, you know, you get comfortable but we see numbers that are rising a little bit and so I guess another question I would tap onto that is like, will we fully be out of this or is this, is this like a new different kind of normal that we just, we need to be like, this is how we're gonna be living? I think we're gonna have to continue to think about this for quite some time. I'm imagining this being similar to the flu where we vaccinate each year. We may be masking again, you know, I think we just, we have to sort of continue to watch the science and the data and just, you know, hear from some of the experts on what some of the prevention strategies will be but I think we're a vaccinated population here in Arlington, we know masks work so I think those two interventions in particular will be helpful but I think it's something we'll probably have to continue to live with for quite some time, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam, you're gonna be leaving? I thought about this question, and what would you put into a letter to somebody that would be following in your footsteps? Like what would be the wisdom, what would be those words that you would give to that person, that next leader that comes in to Arlington? Can I branch out a little bit in my answer? Even as I've been sitting here, thinking about how I wanna answer that question. I mean, the three words I would say very germane to our topic here are equity work matters. It matters to the organization, it matters to the people that live in town, and it matters, it just matters globally. But I keep coming back to this phrase that I stole from somebody but I've been saying more recently and that is we have to find a way in this work and in other urgent work like climate change and affordability of housing which are all intertwined, that we have to figure out a way to go hard on the issues and easy on the people. And I think that's a clever way of reminding everybody that we're all human, right? And we might air, we will make mistakes but that at the end of the day we're all humans and that there's these huge issues we have to tackle and we have to go full throttle on to try to address them but we can't lose our humanity or our view of others as being human in doing that work. I really like that, you know, be hard on the issues and soft with the people yet I might start. Take it, take it. I'm gonna start using that because we're hard on people and forget about the issues, right? And then we cause harm, right? And then people don't wanna engage in the work and so I like thank you for that mindset for me to say that, like it's about the issues and not about the people, right? Yeah. Christine, you're not leaving. No, I'm not, not yet. But what would be some of the words of wisdom you would give to somebody if you were leaving? You've been here 22 years. Yeah, I mean, I think not, you know, any different than what Adam mentioned, I think it's important that you really have to continue to focus on the issues and do what's right. I think that's the biggest piece is like looking at the data, the science and making sure that decisions are being made with that in mind. Because again, as I mentioned before, you're gonna hear from people on both sides and it's going to be, it's sometimes going to be very nasty and you just really have to think about what is the right thing and continue to do that as a leader. So I think, I don't know if I have three words, but I think that sort of sums up what I would recommend anyone in these local government roles to continue to focus on just what's right and continue to push forward. I think that lines up with what Adam's saying though, where he's saying, hard on the issue, soft on the people. It lines up with what you're saying, just do what is right, right, what is equitable for all. And one of the things I was thinking of is that continuously getting those voices that are on the fringes. It's really important and that lines up with what you all are doing and saying to each other. I really appreciate you all coming in today and having this conversation with me. I know it's Friday and I'm like, oh, you won't get to leave early. But I really appreciate Adam and Christine coming in and having these conversations. I think it's really important for us to have these conversations. So again, thank you for being with us today as we have been having another segment of DI Matters Conversations with Margaret Cuedo-Thomas. I hope that you will come back again next time. Thank you.