 I feel glad to be back amidst you. So some of the questions that were asked, you know, in the session just before tea, I talked about five different pathways that we can sort of vaguely classify what countries in the world appear to have followed to take their economy from on the road to development. And the questions were, you know, what is my prescription for India among them? I didn't want to say none, but definitely we were trying to say we also embarked on some of them. Having said that, what is the roadmap for India? So basically, you know, as I said right at the beginning, I mean, nine o'clock today, that it is the idea here is to understand what are the alternate pathways available to a country and how to choose a judicious mix of them, especially from the environmental perspective. Obviously, that means since there could possibly be a trade-off between what, you know, they would like to formulate for achieving development, high growth rate point of view and from terms of the environmental preservation point of view, etc. So an ideal mix of policies and strategies, which is gives a win-win situation both economic development at the same time, much less, you know, environmental adverse impacts in what they should choose. So that's exactly what we are trying to explore now. So instead of just giving a prescription, I thought we now, you know, look at it from the perspective of achieving sustainable development. Everybody wants development, but now what we would like to have is sustainable development and that's what even many countries in the world are now trying to achieve. But then the moment you say sustainable development, we all know what is development, but what is sustainable development? So we have to start with what this concept means and is this myth or is it really something which is measurable, quantifiable, because without that most people including social scientists will not accept it. And then what are the approaches or strategies to achieve this? Then towards the end, we'll say what exactly is in store from the Indian perspective. Again as the course objective is to sort of share with you some of these, you know, thoughts, which can, you know, help you to provoke the students, make them think and see how exactly this could be done, etc. So, you know, this is what I expect to go through in this, the concept and then briefly I'll mention to you about, you know, the estimation of green GDP, which is taken as a proxy when you talk about sustainable development, then operationalize sustainable development. Now, development itself is a process of change, but sustainable development, more importantly, is a process of change as most people have now come to consensus on where the exploitation of resources, the direction of investments, the orientation of technological development and institutional changes, all that we talked about in the morning to the year on 9, are all in harmony, that is, there is no contradiction between them, they all go together and enhance both current as well as future potential to meet human needs and aspirations. So, it is not simply in terms of current, meeting the needs of the current population, but also in terms of the future needs and the aspirations. If that's what we can do, then we call that pathway as pathway to sustainable development. Now, to break it down further, therefore, we say that it is a process that links exploitation of resources, exploitation not necessarily in derogatory or wrong sense, the use of it, investments, how exactly or directly or investments to, the technological efforts, what kind of technology you are, choice of, including choice of techniques and what of steps for R&D and innovations, etc. And kinds of institutions that you have created for achieving development, they are all, you know, keeping in mind, basically process that links them with the human needs and aspirations. That is, they don't draw upon a plan for themselves, but they are draw upon a plan based on the needs of people, aspirations of people of that particular economy or the global economy. So, the moment you say this, can we really continue to look at GDP as an indicator of development, because by and large people look at GDP per capita or real GDP per capita as indicator of levels of living in different countries and make international comparisons in the absence of alternative. Of course, you can always say, Amartya Sen has given us human development index, there are now new indexes like human poverty index and happiness index and what not. All have come, but conventionally, most countries have been looking at world development report or world bank, etc., mostly looks at GDP per capita as an indicator of levels of development, then makes international comparisons, either at purchasing power parity terms, definitely at constant prices, comparable unit of measurement like US dollar or Euro, etc., but then there are limitations of that. So, therefore, we switch over from simple GDP to eco-domestic product or what is now known as, popularly known as green GDP, initially it was called eco-domestic product, because GDP stands for gross domestic product. Where the green GDP is defined in terms of traditional macroeconomics is nothing but, it is NDP minus imputed environmental cost, where NDP stands for net domestic product. What is net domestic product, which is gross domestic product minus depreciation of the man-made capital, the wear and tear of the machinery for instance, the replacement cost of the equipments. So, that is depreciation, so depreciation allowance. So, GDP minus depreciation gives you the net domestic product and if you deduct imputed environmental cost from net domestic body, you get what is G. Initially, when this was proposed, you know, first they brought in what they call SEEA, system of environmental and economic accounting, is still debated by Government of India and CSO, Central Psychological Administration. Several countries in the world met in Rio de Janeiro, World Air Summit in 1992 and then they said, let us now move into SEEA, so that we can compare. But then some countries got frightened, they said, if we estimate green GDP, if the IEC imputed environmental cost is higher than NDP, our GDP can become negative or it can be very low, then they will go down low in international ranking on development. They were not really ready to accept that. But it took longer of time for people to have a consensus on this. Let us say, let us make a beginning. So, the first step, now it has become quite complicated in terms of measurement, like using input, output, table and others. But I am going to tell you very simple introduction to what exactly initially they started out with and then that is how they have been estimated also because the later measures are still being discussed and arrived upon for all the countries in the world. So, the only thing that is because NDP, depreciation, GDP, all data is available with CSO. So, what is not available, the imputed environmental cost. What is imputed environmental cost? It is the degradation and depletion of natural assets. That is all, this is the cost of that, the value of that. How do we do that? So, the IEC consists of economic cost induced by, for example, natural resource depletion, destruction of the ecosystems as well as degradation of natural assets as well as, you know, and air and water pollution for instance, etc. So, we look at each of this, how exactly we calculate IEC. Some sense they will also give an idea how to value the natural resources that you are asking me in the first talk. Let us look at the resource depletion. For resource depletion, basically you have to start by calculating the rate of depletion and then for produced natural assets like forest, the cost of depletion is set to equal to the reproduction cost of the net reduction of resources. How long does it take to get a tree back of this shape that you are cutting today and what are the costs that you had incurred to grow this particular tree? That becomes the, I mean, then if you spread that over next 20 years, that becomes your rate of depletion. That is the cost of depletion. Suppose the resource is non-renewable, makes your life difficult, renewable you can do this, but consumption of non-renewable resources may eventually require a substitute to be found. You do not know the cost of the substitute. You do not even know the cost of discovering the substitute. Therefore, in such cases, you bring in what is called the user cost or in economic terms we call it depletion premium. So what is user cost? The user cost defined as the difference between rent in economic sense is not simply rent that you pay for house or you know, premise that you rent out, etc. Rent is a payment made for use of a particular resource. So the difference between the rent of the current resource exploitation and the external rent if we are to exploit the resource forever, assuming that the resource available perennially, infinitely and what is the rate of use of extraction of this node, crude oil is an example. So user cost is equal to Rc minus Re where Rc is the current annual rent of the resource exploitation and Re is the rent if annual rent if you could exploit the resource infinitely. In that together, the total rent will now become sigma Rc is equal to 1 plus R, simple discounting method where R is the discount rate and N is the number of years we could exploit the resource at the current depletion rate if it is limited. Of course, 1 up to infinity if it is available forever. This is exactly what we can rent. So that is we basically calculate TR, E minus TR, C but the TR, E basically talk in terms of when the resource available infinitely. So in other words by substituting these equations, we basically get user cost as Rc into 1 to the power 1 plus R to the power minus N. So the simple discounting rate is what we basically can use for every resource which is now made available by several of these funding agents. So for the resource that is finite in use, non-renewable one can use the user cost approach. So you can get the values of this. What are the other components of IEC? Losses caused by degradation of natural assets. But here there are two important things, there are you know one is economic assets. We look at forest, grasslands and cultivable land as economic assets. But given the mindset problem that we have, we look at air and water as non-economic assets. Is it correct to call them non-economic assets? They are highly debatable. So in the case of economic assets very easy to calculate. But in the case of non-economic asset like air and water, how do we do it? So they quantify the degradation cost in the monetary terms, use the recovery cost as a proxy for the degradation damage. So natural assets one can look at the rate of degradation and then impute the value. But what about air and water? So the degradation of air and water is mainly attributed to increase in air and water pollution. For example, rising emissions of SO2, TSP, NOX and other as well, empire air quality especially in urban areas. So if you look at the IEC for air, let the impute environmental cost for air and water, one can use the abatement and control cost as a measure for the damage incurred by air pollution. So for water apply the marginal abatement cost as a proxy for cost of water pollution. So it is the cost of the excreter who sort of regulates it and abatement that becomes air and water pollution, the impute environmental cost. So that is also being monitored and estimated and therefore we get what is called GDP. So this makes people think, are you really estimating green GDP or estimating damage cost? Everywhere you are talking about what happened to the adverse effect and all that. So I must say IEC and the environmental damage represent two different approaches to determining the social cost of environmental degradation. We do not want to call it damage because for certain reasons why? For example, in the case of air and water pollution, the IEC evaluates the social cost in terms of expenditure to prevent pollution emission whereas the environmental damage method measures them on the basis of actual losses in production and the medical expenditure or social cost that the society has to bear due to pollution. So we are not talking about damage estimation here, we are talking in terms of cost, social cost which is expenditure to prevent pollution emission because we cannot impute value to loss of human lives and work days loss due to health problems etc. That may make your GDP even negative. So let me give a simple example here. Suppose we have to estimate the loss to the economy because of loss of human lives due to Bhopal gas tragedy or earthquake or several other even manmade instances like terror attack and all that. And if you have to you know see what if these people have been alive for N number of years what they were working on how much they would have been made and how much contribution they would have made to GDP and you say it impute value to that and subtract from the GDP that is damage estimation. We cannot really get into that. The idea here is to talk in terms of cost to prevent pollution because these things are not what is attempted here. In imputed environmental cost does not include that very difficult to include social losses because if you include all these social losses the acceptance of environmental damage is much more expensive than the cost required to eliminate environmental pollution. Therefore we have to be very clear about this and then talk more in terms of how to operationalize sustainable development. We let us estimate imputed environmental cost and see how we can operationalize it. Operationalizing sustainable development within this framework is a responsibility of the policy maker and administrator because market alone is not expected to do this. So we expect a very important role played by the policy maker but how do they do it? Is it possible to have a modeling, econometric modeling, can modeling be the answer? Several of these questions come up let us look at them. So let me start with the modeling first. What do you mean by economic modeling is proper short and long term trade off between economic objectives and changes in natural source base, information on economic and environmental variables has to be comparable and the interaction between these variables correctly identified very important. If the steel production goes up by 10% to the environment what happens to when the you know oil production goes up or coal production goes up etc or usage of coal goes up all is possible using an input output transaction matrix for the economy is possible to look at all this to estimate you know green GDP whether we are on sustainable path etc. But remember that environmental degradation does not come up in only one way it can manifest in number of ways. Firstly we all know that it can manifest in terms of rising concentrations of pollution so we say how to deal with it. Secondly it can also cause in terms of resource depletion and thirdly it can intrude into or modification of the ecosystem like building physical infrastructure into or through them on the coast so it can manifest in number of ways. These environmental degradation have to be linked with the development process. So it is linked with a range of features process and agents in the natural environment and society which can be classified in five different ways. Firstly we need to understand all economies will have to understand what is the source of the environmental pressure which will vary across economies is it increase in economic activity like automobiles and chemicals or is it because of certain other factors what is the source of environmental pressure if it is because of economic increase in economic activity it may be inevitable because economic activity will have to keep on growing for the economy to grow become developed country. Then how do we can we change the economic activity from automobiles and chemicals to certain other sectors that could be a possibility. So it is important that we document this which sector is putting how much pressure on the environment. This includes when you are inviting multilaterals and others when your own industries have given freedom to invest they may invest in those sectors which have great demand but over production of them can be harmful for the environment. So therefore we have to link between source of economic pressure activity expansion and source of economic pressure. Secondly who are the receptors of this environmental degradation are they ecosystems like wetlands are they cultural objects like your ancient temples of Taj Mahal etc. or are they people especially those who are living at the margins slum dwellers it understand who these are the receptors could vary from situation to situation. So we have to identify who are the affected people in all these areas we do where economic expansion is taking place. Thirdly we also need to understand the intermediate environmental process which links the source to receptor for example the rag pickers in urban areas was affected in generators or waste treatment plants for instance they are all the intermediaries so it is important to understand this classification. Fourthly they are not people are not going to take it as it is there will be feedback agents or response by social agents do they have opportunity to expand do they have opportunity to give feedback how exactly they do that is also something that we need to understand. And finally the social determinants of economic activity economic activity may itself expand because of growth in livestock or growth in population which makes it inevitable. So all these aspects we need to understand in order to plan for a particular economy to place them on a sustainable development. Next step here in formulating a roadmap for development especially to achieve sustainable development is we need to understand the indicators of change in the environment that is to capture the various aspects of change in the environment caused by economic activities three types of indicators are there pressure indicators impact indicators and sustainability indicators let us know what they are in economic macroeconomics we say there is a distinction between stocks and flows pressure indicators are mostly taken as flow variables these are developments over a period of time of the levels of emission discharges you know depositions extractions interventions of originating from a set of economic activities etc. So basically they explain the burden placed on placed on the stocks of environmental goods and so forth by in large the problem comes only in pressure not into the basic stock stock is not fortunately very high for most countries it is the flow that will become very important and flow varies from season to season also so they can be defined in terms of economic actors or economic sector etc they can also be in terms of spatial or geographical dimension which part which region more concentrated where the pressure is more etc and emissions can also be imported or exported by the direction of the wind so you can say what happens in India affects Bangladesh and vice versa and the like especially in landlocked countries so it's important to understand the pressure indicator then let's move into the impact indicator which reflect the impact of this pressure on the receptors usually in a predetermined region in a particular place say particular state Maharashtra and the place you know Missourum etc they also include imported transboundary pressures and they show the development over time of the stocks and quantities of environmental goods and resources all that is being looked into here then comes finally sustainability indicators both the first two are both the first and second are easy to sort of measure that is pressure and impact and can be transformed into sustainability indicator only by relating it to some predetermined reference value these references try to indicate what is considered to be a sustainable level of extraction quantity as well as quality for coal for oil and several others what is sustainable and how are you performing with respect to that how do we do this also I will give the example of Israel when they went to see that three years ago Israel was discovered to have one of the largest country which are the larger resources of gas so the government wanted to decide whether we should extract more gas now and then sell it to the world to make more money or should we decide on the rate of extraction and leave it for the future population also so that there is gas exploration over a long period of time they did not know because current population we can only take additional for current government can only take additional for current population how much they will worry about future etc so they deserve to go for a public consultation so they went in for this consultation with the stakeholders and finally decided what is the optimal rate of exploit and the of the resources so the consensus was built in a country like Israel initially I could believe then when the document they showed me all the documents how exactly they went about doing it I was very impressed how they did the consultation process in a democratic country that is exactly what is important where stakeholder perception will also take in a term so it is important that you drop on what is the what is the because this resource can be a major internal of foreign exchange for them today but they can also help them over a long period of time but the problem with sustainability indicator is that it has to it will have certain normative value because most of them picture the distance between current reference value and what should be that should be bridged WHU standard for instance so these reference values are of course based on scientific insights and the inevitably the outcome of personal and societal risk assessment some preferences but the risk assessment itself can vary across countries unfortunately how do we respond when two people die in a particular event and 200 people die in a particular event in different event we do respond differently because how much do you value life of a citizen of a country it does vary for what has happened in Bhopal in 1984 the company would have had to wind up with all his operation and assets attached if it had happened in US the company continues to run on Indian soil although taken away someone else and the compensation we all know the sats state of affairs with respect to the compensation that people have received so societal discusses funds and preferences are also very across nations therefore when you talk about sustainability normative valuation does bring in and there are also problems of valuation aggregation we have to keep that also in mind so therefore when you talk about sustainability it the perception can also vary across nations still want to go out and do it I'm not saying therefore we should not do it but one should be aware of the limitations therefore one gets into what is called economic ecological modeling why do we talk about modeling because this is to just give substance to the notion of system development if you don't you know say that you can sort of model it model it etc people will say it's all simply words it is possible to scientifically approach and find a solution this issues so we try to make a distinction between formal and analytical model here that typically provide abstract representation of the system and empirical applied model that relates with concrete realities there are models which are evaluative prescriptive or normative models and some of the examples of this are what is often used cost-benefit analysis cost-effectiveness environmental impact analysis etc social impact analysis also so all these models are basically used in order to check whether what we are doing is you know is correct step or not all the steps are being taken that into account they can also be analytical or predictive model for example one can use computable general equilibrium models or input of models or econometric model as many researchers have done in order to describe and now people are started engaging in simulation also so basically the models only describe the intensity of abatement or remedial activities necessary to comply with some standard of the environmental quality in relation to the cost of such activity okay sometime we also get in for the partial impact model or the complete impact model and therefore these models can be grouped into substance and material flow model or resource regeneration and carrying capacity model or life supports and ecosystem models all this lot of researchers have started getting into is only those want to research can use any of this for their physical purposes so therefore we come back we come back to simple steps that need to be taken to operationalize system of development and important that we spent some time and this will also sort of give the pathways for development first and foremost every country will have to identify appropriate existing abatement technologies available in them in their country or available elsewhere and direct the investment especially in R&D for the emergence of more appropriate technology in areas where it doesn't exist so one has to carry out a technology needs assessment search analysis and then investment and then direct your R&D for that is R&D directed in those line on those lines where we have capable of doing or should be it be more and more need-based here they saying that it's important that we address divert some resources for need-based R&D also especially from pollution abatement technology point of view and reward if required so the first as a part of that people will say what about recycling or decrease waste generation recycling to decrease waste generation and reduce the use of input such as energy per unit of effort is very very important you improve the awareness you talk about that but that cannot substitute the investment to be made in R&D searching for new technology and we cannot say that this will be done we develop countries will only copy and paste them or borrow them or buy them as and when we require every country will have to do it they have to do their bit to contribute because such a achieving system of development for themselves will also do good for the rest of the country in the world so is for others they will also have to start thinking the same way because you are achieving development and it's also going to be confirming to sustainability so therefore the first two steps as a part of the first one is to invest in R&D secondly to talk about educate people about need to recycle and decrease waste generation especially optimal use of energy etc now in the Israel that I talked about when I went everybody was talking about how to reduce energy consumption per capita so I made the change in the monotony I said I am going to talk about energy poverty they all looked at me say you going to talk about energy poverty when we are all talking about reducing how to reduce energy consumption per capita I said I cannot talk about reducing consumption where the energy is not provided how many villages in India don't have access to energy electricity and gas for instance so what happens when there are extreme events energy poverty so it's important that we talk about that second step here is creating a climate for the adoption of appropriate technology that is very important how do we do it through the use of market-based intervention not force tick doesn't work all the time market-based intervention including fiscal intervention by fiscal policy we mean tax and subsidies you're providing tax holidays to software exporting companies for 10 years extended to under 5 years you need for an exchange are you extending tax holiday for industries which are adopting environmentally benign practices are you giving subsidy to companies which are investing in R&D to search for environmentally benign technologies reducing the emissions or those who have waste disposal plants or those who collectively work towards creating common effluent treatment plants these are the various instruments that one could use that then continue to use the traditional incentives for export you know subsidy and fertilize the subsidy and like I'm not saying against them but basically it's also important to incentivize this environmental benign steps third and fourth most you know equally important is identified situations in which development and preservation are complementary to consumer awareness eco friendly products eco industries etc it's very important a number of steps taken by for example IED Bombay or other institutions that have seen in Maharashtra that during you know Ganesh Tathukthi time they encourage people to use soil in and around the lakes and others to make Ganesha and then put it back to the same water body after the Ganesh festival ends eco friendly products provide a lot of incentives eco industries so that they won't be able to survive you are provided to other industries in the first four decades of development why not eco industries now no it is consumer awareness where I am always you know when do we start what is the right age if you start that you can have an impact there's no answer but let me give you my you know experience personal experience of what happened in other countries I lived in Japan for a year in 2002 due to 2001 the environmental awareness 15 years ago was taught not in college not in the university not in the university not in the college not in the high school etc but in play schools it starts from there from nursery pre-KHG till the age of seven the children are not taught alphabets till the age of seven they are not taught alphabets after six only they start telling them seven only they start writing ABC but definitely they are taught how to segregate waste when they are in kindergarten to same habits old habits die hard we say you know same happens continue till the death so a sensitization and awareness starts from nursery segregation of waste begin from that bio degradable toxic recyclable taught at that level so where we start start from wherever you can so that they are consumer awareness improves over period of so it means environmental education is very important that's why I guess all of us are together in these two weeks trying to learn ourselves as well as what we think about how to you know translate this to our students fourthly encourage in all areas where it implies preservation preservation cannot simply become your universal mantra but where it requires where it implies preservation you must encourage that if you just say only preserve then you may not achieve development so where it requires where it is it means the meaningful useful but is there anybody who is listening who is following all this yes look at the experience the last 25 years you can see the Rio meeting was the Waterloo free and post-rio meeting before 1992 there was very little awareness about global warming and depletion of resource but leading to 1992 earth summit several regional comprehensive economic and environmental plans were prepared because they wanted to make an impressive presentation in the real summit post-rio almost every country is there it that they will embark on this although they everybody each one of them took different time some example of what people did before 92 countries in Latin America and Caribbean came together and followed what is called our own agenda for sustainable development regional sustainable development plan and they made a presentation in the real summit south east Asia came up with another one economic policy for south east Asia so sustainable development south east Asia in 1990 Pacific countries in Pacific Island came with environment and development as Pacific perspective they called it the Pacific way in 1991 they also prepared so they all gave different perspectives to all this but what we find from them as well as from what has happened post-rio summit you can talk about Kyoto protocol one can talk about other international you know agreements etc there is a difference in the perspective between developed and developing countries no doubt about it is bound to be there whether you're talking in terms of food subsidy you're talking in terms of green box subsidies or you're talking in terms of pollution management pollution control foreign direct investment open-trade monetary fiscal policy in each of this they could be different but that doesn't mean that we should leave it there they can be defensive perception that's fine as long as the objective are similar or comparable or the same then these differences and perceptions are fine it's not necessary that everybody will have to follow the same path they can follow different parts but all roads all parts may go to lead to the same destination that is just it's also important that every country understands that animal degradation may be an inevitable consequence of development but not necessarily it's a harbinger of doom because it is reversible after certain threshold levels number of studies who have formulated and estimated animal crucial scope hypothesis for various countries in the world have come to this conclusion that it is reversible after certain threshold levels but it may take some time for different countries to achieve the threshold until then you may have to have patience and you can also is work towards it because the threshold after threshold declining in you know in pollution level is not automatic can be triggered you can even trigger it faster so where did you take steps for that but then the question is are we going to have you know resources for investing in all this but aren't you wasting resources how much of money is being wasted we say in food subsidy or the every 100 rupees spent by the government how much is really reaching out to the poor also before 15 or 16 rupees remaining 84 85 rupees goes only in implementing that same thing may be holding to with respect to environmental subjects also so it's important that we save some of this for and then spend it on through the right institution for the right purpose so what has definitely happened in the last two decades it has provided an attractive research agenda for developed countries preter of journals preter of you know research papers that have been published covering various dimensions in this same is also emerging in the case of developing countries no doubt about that you'll see it all that is happening so in the next 15 minutes or so I thought I'll talk more about specifically on India so I thought best is to start with energy there's no doubt that there's a big gap between demand and supply for energy demand is always higher than supply and we also always trying to see how we can achieve the demand target demand is you know basically estimated based on the requirements of industry households commercial other purposes etc and the demand supply mismatch is going to be you know a big issue has been a big issue for many years it's going to grow how do we address this mismatch is a big challenge now in this process we are also trying to learn from other countries experience how do the others try to do that because mismatch seems to be getting reduced for them but it seems to be not getting reduced for us at all so maybe they are going in switching over to more efficient modes of energy generation nuclear but after Chen Boyle especially after what happened in Fukushima people are scared solar definitely possible environmentally benign but expensive lot of now investment is directed towards R&D in solar in India and other places so we are on the one hand there is a problem of mismatch in demand supply on the other hand is also important that we manage our power plants better so that they are they don't they're not the major source of pressure on the environment and here when it comes to energy we're not saying that you know conservation is a wrong phrase where required conservation should be encouraged but one cannot talk too much about conservation when there is energy poverty have you given access to electricity or energy resources across the length and breadth of the country no then how can I talk about conservation in general I will talk about conservation in select areas well it's used extensively so I had to also address the issue of energy poverty which is related to economic poverty so the first and foremost is the way we deal with the problem of energy understanding these dimensions second is what about water many studies have shown that we are running out of water normal and clean water and with mountains getting postponed irregular and seasonal etc. we may have faced more such problems in future climate change how are you going to take care of this desalination could be measured but can they really bring a solution to a large country like us now people are you staying saying that we'll use solar power for desalination very good a lot of research been funded by DST on this third dimension is in terms of land degradation we seems to have come into a situation where we are unable to feed ourselves we are also depending more and more on food imports is it by choice or is it because we are lands are getting diverse to cultivation of others which we are using for oil seas and others which are now using for energy purposes or export purposes and there's a big issue of biodiversity which also results in land degradation how are we going to handle so that's again another set of thing that we need to look at we're not to say they're not interrelated there's a close interrelation between them but each one of it is a different dimension and fourthly and I'm not saying this is in terms of order of priority I'm just saying that these are the issues that is coming up here urban squalor unplanned urbanization and slow sluggish growth of the rural economy attracts migration to urban areas so it is an urban squalor and there are issues of choking or unpolluted air Delhi as studies have shown or other cities in India less urban not necessarily only in metropolitan city but also in other areas so these are the major threats so we need to address all of them so it has to be addressed in your approach to development itself this is not to say so what are the policies in action what is the road mathematical law for development what exactly action that we know is not to say that we are doomed forever a rapid growth for Indian economy is definitely possible I'm always a possible optimistic and the resources also exist we have but what we need to understand is are we giving directing enough technological efforts are we promoting technological effort to answer to find solution to our own growth requirements the answer is no it is not that we don't know the skilled workforce as you know technically in skill man scientifically skilled manpower to do that the proportion of GDP that is invested in R&D if you take all public private everybody together has not has just marginally been about 1% of GDP look around the world many countries that have progress very well have invested about 4% now the question is suppose I enhance the investment will that take care not at all is it important to only look at you as an Europe for example not at all you look at Japan what has worked in Japan they also adopted important adopt technology but then soon they became threat to the original technology supplier team effort industry and government came together to do R&D right from 1950s we never emphasize although it remains on paper some text incentives are there emphasize the importance given to R&D whenever we open up the economy we go abroad we say please give the technology you want to import and if you start with the industry in 1960s by importing technology in 1980s when you open up they again you go back the same guy and say can you give me updated technology what have you been doing in the last 20 years with the technology that I gave you those guys will not ask you because they are getting money for supplying the upgraded technology what have you done there is no pressure on me there's no pressure of competition now there's pressure of competition since 1991 so I'm directed to do R&D but again there's no pressure on me to be environmentally to search for environmental bin and technologies again pressure alone will not bring about this there has to be pressure from within not from just the government policy or regulator alone that will come only when you sensitize them towards so we have the advantage of working with young minds our students so when you try to attempt this we expect at least even 10% of them get sensitized and start working towards that it will help us as well as the entire humanity all over the world so that's why it's important to talk about technological effort are there enough incentives that we can be articulated in demand from the government it's important that we put on paper put on you know in practice incentives for that there are green labeling that is required when you export even full fill of export is will full fill but there are nothing for the domestic market people says very expensive but when it has to be export market you are ready to face that there are green labels there are green shares companies which adopt sustainable practices are their shares are traded differently in New York Stock Exchange please do a Google search on green shares same company share is traded elsewhere also green shares that is how the stock market teach them suppose we start that why I don't know what happened to Indian industries how many of them really follow green practices some may follow but they may not really document but many may not follow at all to get them qualified to get green labeling for the plant as a whole ISO certification is an attempt in that direction CDM's green development mechanism adoption of that is also an attempt in that direction series also helped you get the technology transfer from elsewhere so we doing some research on what happens in the company which are fulfilling ISO certification which also are basically getting to CDM's etc and see compare them with others it's important that we identify them as champions we have to move away from the mindset of you know rewarding those who achieve high rates of growth high rates of profits alone they're important I'm not saying they are unimportant but if they can combine that with environmental practices these are the ones which need to be rewarded do we have anything on place as of date any policy any provision to reward them unfortunately that's why it's important to promote technology effort in fact what's happening here is even the universities are ranked in terms of the green practices in US they separate ranking we are talking about QS ranking and other of the institutions and universities etc in terms of publications where your students get placed and all that but we are also talking about green campuses so therefore what I want to say is to preserve the quality of environment is I time India we give special attention to policies to place itself on sustainable growth path simply on development side time we achieve a stress upon that once we do that then we'll see the results may not come tomorrow is also definitely take some time to come but when it comes it'll be a very pleasant liveable experience for us as well as for the future generation that's exactly what it's important that for us to highlight and understand some specific instruments and policies is what I intend to take up in the future sessions but this is exactly what I wanted to state it here so now I like to use the next half number for interaction yeah I have a question that it is a trend that we see that different countries or developed countries have from the primary sector to the secondary sector as well as the third third sector that is the tertiary sector now India is such a country which has shifted from directly from agriculture to service sector so based on that I have two questions regarding this one is how will it help in development of like sustainability development and the next question is what adverse effect will it have on the environment good very good question I agree that we have shifted from that but that's more than mostly in terms of share of GDP as well as the growth rates but this is not to say that industry has not been growing in India industry has also actually been going and all see we put maximum effort to plan for industrialization and that is really not really in terms of the environmental point of view planning has been only for increasing investment and production in industries so the challenges posed by fast growing service sector for the environment are much different and much lower than challenges posed by the growth of industrial sector but the problem have come to a very serious level today in India because I mean manageable but serious is because the industrialization itself did not you know take into account environment environmental perspective at all even over I'm not saying 1956 we should have taken into account but at least 1996 we should have taken that into account so that is why this is differential it's at least now it's time for us to wake up when we say we need to come we need to have more and more make in India slogans especially when you say we want to invite them to come and make in India we have to see which sector is going to come here good morning sir good morning sir I want to know a practical example of impact indicator impact indicator health expenditure on cardiovascular disease okay sir thanks one two four one NRI institute sir can we display a modern environment before the policy makers for valuation yes it is possible thank you sir SKN see your word hello sir yes go ahead my question is that how the sustainable development can be actually in the rural areas of India is a good point in fact when I talked about sustainable development it means it refers to both urban as well as rural areas only okay now although I do not elaborate much about the agriculture practices but in the morning session we talked about what are the agriculture practices which can have adverse environmental impacts so that is what we expected to be at this at the here agricultural how the food security and the agricultural sustainability can be related with each other of course that is a it is a big challenge linking food security with agricultural sector with globalization food security is also now sort of possible to achieve through your trade whereas agricultural diversity and sustainability can be attempted in most countries in independent of that one can try that as well okay sir thank you one at what institute I want to ask one question in that see India is trying to imply the policy of make in India if this implies this policy will be adopted then industries will increase in India in number of industries it will I believe it adversely affect India and even if it has a affect India I want to ask one more relative question that why don't we import then if the and why is the import also not not good for our Indian economy have you got it sir yes I got it thank you for the good questions okay make in India is good we should never say it's bad because make in India is good because we need to provide employment opportunities to people here if you want to import it will be made elsewhere employment opportunity we and the benefit of that will go to other countries so make in India is definitely going to be good in this it will add to industrialization so we I will never advocate you know importing commodities which we can make in India okay but having said that when you say make in India campaign we must ensure that the industries that we are going to be coming up now are following environmentally benign practices our regulator will have to ensure that it should not become a relocation of most pollution intensive industries from the US or Germany to India that is what our apprehension is so if you can ensure government can ensure this it's well and good in terms of environmental economics I just want to ask one question we have to correlate the economics related to rural area as well as the urban area because in terms of urban area we are going to provide the all types of the raw materials from the source of rural area so is there any correlation in between these two things or else we have to separate these two things no no you're correct we need to correlate we need to understand the inter linkages between agriculture and industries which used to be very strong earlier and it is getting reduced now but there are several agro based the several industry which are dependent on agriculture for inputs so it is very important we understand the sectoral linkages within an economy it is still important yes college sir how pollution is affecting our economy is there any case study yes there are a number of case studies that people have done I have also done some case studies on how it is affecting in different parts of it some of it I will be talking to you in the in the class tomorrow especially in the context of climate change what are cities subjected by pollution in our country and how government is mitigating such pollution what are cities affected the list is already there look at the environment minister of environment and forest the list is there Delhi tops the list okay thank you sir yeah more question sir sir my question is from previous session can you explain about the which are land tension for 10 land tenure pattern deals with the kinds of tenancy system we have and 10 kinds of shack hopping system that we have between the owners and the cultivators that's all we mean by you know land tenure system what are the contractual agreement that is entered between the landlord and the cultivator so can you explain about the socio-economic values socio-economic impact assessments that we try tend to do for most of the projects become mandatory now so that you know who is going to be affected how are they going to be affected and in terms of benefits to the society as well as the economy all they will be going to be assessed before you decide to support that particular project or policy impact on society and economy RC but in good answer my question is what are the policies that is to be implemented you permission from a particular mining project in the biosphere reserve there is another question which is related to microeconomics and micro macroeconomics how can correlate microeconomics issues with the macroeconomics issues can you explain with a suitable history sure see let me take the second question first micro and macro are you know what happens to in a particular say farm say which is cultivating paddy and the farmer is switching over from paddy to say jettropa okay so we look at in terms of microeconomic effect but if one farmer does it is it necessary that all farmers in that region will have to switch over to that and if they do what will happen to put security in India and the impact on environment etc so that's where the link between one farm and farming in general so what holds true for one individual may not hold to for everybody but if everybody does it what will happen to the economy that's where we try to link in you know link between micro and macro system in a very in a very simple example I state that with respect to coal mining there are number of steps procedures that are being established for that also you know if you look at the secondary coal field for example all these are documented in the website itself the problem comes when most people don't follow it and they violated one another question yeah which parameters that we have to consider in evaluating environmental economics related to damages caused by the various types of pollution created by specific project actually we'll have to see what the project is all about and whether it's going to be whether it's a water water pollution intensive or air pollution intensive how exactly one can assess the impact of this in that region there are theoretical specification there are also practical specification that we can definitely look into and benchmarks whether they are strictly other into etc so we'll have to basically you know compare in terms of the norms only Federal Institute session you were speaking about clustering of countries regarding the development so my question is you're also speaking about policy perspectives in the one of in this session actually so when a country is basically planning on strategies for development how effective and how good it will be regarding the environmental protection policies when we consider the global scenario definitely see you you don't operate independently today because of the globalization your economy is linked to the economies of the rest of the world so you are attending several you know cops and a cop and other meetings where your signature your party to some declarations jointly signed by all the countries so you are supposed to bring that knowledge and implemented incorporated in your own planned opposed development so definitely we expected to be much more much better today than it was say 20 years ago sir one of the examples is when us basically US and some of the other developed countries asked us to cut down the carbon dioxide emissions most of the developing countries they were not ready to do the same so that's one of the main issues or one of the main things we have to think about so that's a whole idea that is that is where they bring in politics because what happens is the US president signs Kyoto protocol but when he goes back to Washington people say how did you sign is very difficult for us to other to these norms so therefore developing countries also react saying that look you're signed you can't go back but they when they are no honor obviously others also follow suit so this is a global that's why right in the first class I said the global public good so you love to decide what you will do for the growth because every action of yours has global implications today there's no easy solution our objective is to you know imbibe this knowledge on the students and see make them think line institute sir good afternoon so my question is in our country is there any indigenous example of development without depleting environment you mean some at some region some village some level you can you can see some you know sporadic cases of you know environmental benign practices being adopted in select region but they are very micro levels not for a country as a whole not for a state or not for the you know in in the south north region perspective so there are sporadic cases of I mean our instances are examples where they follow out development which are also but which are also environmentally benign see I would say there was study of Palampur in Himachal Pradesh which sort of documents some of the best practices and also there are select spaces in Madhya Pradesh is also you know documented that way so but you know there are sporadic cases are not really in terms of followed throughout the country thank you sir sustainable development there should be standardized procedure just like ISO 40,000 for environmental policy why should by governance such kind of policy be made for sustainable development good question you know what happens here is when you have ISO on others you assume that there is only one way to achieve this but sustainable development can be achieved by multiple ways also there is no one particular single route that has to be only followed the same problem can be you know address by number of steps that's exactly what I attempted to show so that you have to you cannot say this it is more a certification as than this so there are number of ways we did a study of you know sustainable development practices being adopted in two blocks in Pune district you know in Vela and Porandha Taluk of Pune district and where it is decentralized approach that turned out to be extremely fruitful it is not top-down it is basically people who came together and then adopted certain practices so there is no one particular method it is outcome that is more important and therefore this certifications may not really be applicable in the case of sustainable practices ISO certifications are fine it is very easily followable in the case of industry or manufacturing sector but not necessarily if you talk about economy as a whole Vela institute good afternoon sir we are taking sustainable development but on the other hand we are doing it intentionally and knowingly for personal benefits for example nowadays gadgets life has been reduced to three years or five years earlier it was made for lifetime so it is ultimately pressurizing on natural resources so how government will come up with this issue very very good I want to thank you for this question actually you hit the correct nail now this is from the development point of view from the corporate growth point of view they want to reduce the product life cycle so that you know we buy more and more and the company is continue to strive more and more etc but it results in a lot generation of a lot of e-waste I agree so your question is are we not knowingly do this yes there is always a conflict between private interest personal interest business interest and the larger public societal and government interest so the entire if there is no conflict you and I don't need to be there to worry about this so we are here worried about it only because of this conflict and how to resolve this conflict it's not easy but we are still have to make it up where by the private sectors make profit at the same time worry about the environmental good afternoon sir wanted to raise a I mean kind of bigger question that is sustainable development and utopian or Ram Raji kind of concept we are working on everything and suppose if I am taking about the rich north and the poor south one says look for quality of life other says that okay we are looking just for life for survival how are we going to resolve this contradiction very good point I definitely want to respond now it is not a utopian concept please it is basically we are trying we I have tried to be as pragmatic as possible when we try to approach this particular concept okay now having said that is it that you know north wants our better quality of life than and then south wants development yes it is important that we achieve development and then look about it but that's you know if you remember in on the on the in the meeting on Friday I told you that the hajun chang wrote a book called kicking away the ladder so if the present day developed countries have used some ladder to climb up and they want to kick away the ladder not to be available for the present day developing countries to use to climb up that day I said maybe it's a it's a bad move but I know we should always look at it as a good move because that gives an opportunity to reformulate your development approach which is sustainable so why should we encounter the same kinds of problem that the world is uncovering because of the pathways adopted by present day developed countries if it is possible for you to avail alternative pathways which can be environmentally benign and get you development why not is there anything that says you can't achieve this no possible so now the question it may be it may take slightly longer it may be expensive but it may be worth it keeping the prosperity of the post of it that's why I'm saying that all the developing country should explore we're not giving it as a dictate dictat we're saying that it's it's possible if it is possible once you definitely explore and then see how much we can do it so that we don't encounter the same problem that the present day developed countries are uncovering entering into today and the certainly all others are also suffering because of their action I hope I made myself creative good afternoon sir you said that prevention is better than cure how does this support the sustainable development concept no I said prevention better given a specific context madam this is especially you know when it comes to pollution pollution management we try to see how much we can because just because we have been damaging doesn't mean that we continue to damage if it is possible for us to prevent future damages once you definitely make an attempt okay now well can that really be implemented so I might go back to my earlier point to the you know question asked by the gentleman is it at all possible for developing countries to embark on this isn't it going to be expensive I agree it's going to be difficult as well as costlier and it may take longer time to achieve the per capita income levels of the West but it may be worth it because we haven't achieved any great development in the last 60 years in any case isn't it have you we are not 60 years is a long period that we're taking still we are not reach the per capita income levels we are not even reached their level that they were in 1950 so why not make alternative utterance this I'm doing to say it for all developing countries not just the only for India where if it is possible to achieve and I will say as I gave a taxonomy it is possible for us to achieve these things are not you know there cool in task we just have to have the mindset and effort directed in that direction thank you very much