 The emergence of all these kind of thinkings about system thinking or regenerative thinking, living systems thinking is really something that emerges from us looking for solutions for what is not working. And because I think really think that we are more mature as a societies, we are like at the moment of taking responsibilities about what we are building. Lucia Hernandez is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media Innovators Magazine and the Aloha's Regenerative Foundation. Lucia is an expert on platform-based business models. She has been around the collaborative economy for more than a decade. Later platform economies helping organizations of all kinds in the adoption of these new models, bringing the platform mentally to the company and building a relationship of real guidance and support. She's been an advisor for DeCathalon. She is also an expert evaluator of the European Commission under the H2020 program. Professor at business schools such as ESADE and or ESADE, ESADE and an international lecturer and speaker. She has participated in the design of public policies with the European Commission, the IDB, CIPPEC and some local governments such as the General Latate de Catalunya. And she knows the ecosystem very well and what is happening internationally. Has a wide network of trusted international collaborators and she is the president of We Share an international think and do tank that explores how the platform economy is impacting different sectors, markets, organizations, citizens and society in general. As an independent consultant, she helps organizations in designing platform ecosystem strategies with boundary less the company behind platform design toolkit. A methodology to help public and private organizations to design their business models from a platform ecosystem point of view. She was always exploring the design of regenerative ecosystems and network strategies to impact a scale being part of an international forms of communities, connecting people, projects and ideas. Luthier, welcome to Inside Ideas. Thank you, thank you for having me. It's so great that you can make it and I just wanna give our listeners a little heads up. Luthier and I know each other because she's contributing a wonderful portion to a collaborative book, Menu B that I've been working on for years now on global food systems reformation. And she writes about regenerative platform ecosystem models and how they affect our lives and how they're better models. And so that really leads me to my first question for you and for you is how did you get here? How did you get to this point, Luthier? So, well, as you said, I started with the collaborative economy 10 years ago. We saw this movement as a way of really putting the center at the citizen in the production of value and self-organizing in communities under some kind of interest or values. And I was always interested in understanding how these platform business models could generate a positive impact in society and create a more fair, yeah, societies in general for everyone. So, because of that, it was for me, it was like a natural evolution, finding or I was starting to listen this work about regeneration that we were talking that is obviously not new. But for me, it was. But in any case, it's supernatural for me. It resonates a lot with me and it doesn't seem like something strange for me in any case. So it was because of that that I started to research about this term, about this movement, about this kind of designing is a mindset as well as the platforms. So I was trying to understand the intersections between platform design and regenerative design in order to merge both and trying to really develop or design platform strategies for regeneration. That is the thing, the focus that I have at that moment. That's beautiful. I wanna kind of go deeper and first also ask you during this crazy time, this last two years, how have you been and have some new ideas or new things that you've seen in the past during this last two years of pandemic, crazy inauguration, war in Ukraine, all these things going on in our world, given you any kind of impression that, wow, the systems or the models that are being used around the world are just not working for humanity anymore. And then maybe some aha moments to what you've done with platform models in the past or says, wow, I feel like I'm in the right place in the right direction, so to say. So I wanna know how have you been and what is your learning or what are the new things that have come to the surface with all the world crisis and things going on that are learning lessons for you? So the sharing economy started really like with a strongly need of organizing ourself, of really change the way of how we produce it and how we relate each other. So for me, it was very interesting understanding that at the end it was like the immunological system reacting to something that it was happening. So clearly institutions that started at war with a specific goal that it was to maybe to facilitate us or to generate trust in order to relate with these institutions and mutualizing for sure some kind of services for us, for citizens. But at one point, of course, during the COVID lockdowns, we realized that we can't for sure to, well, it was like the realization that the systems or the system, how is it at that moment, is really not working. And the most impacted ones, according to me, of course, it was education and health, that the base of our societies. And it was like, well, we need to do something with that. So if we have the tools and we have the knowledge and the experience of how we can really self-organize and coordinate value creation through this platform, business model that is not a technology or just a technology because it's also a tool, but it's about all a mindset, how we can really create these communities of people under some kind of interest and values and coordinate among us in order to obtain what we need from each other. So the reality is that platforms started also to develop the same capitalistic and extractive business models. So each time that started like a more communitarian, I would say, or more fair business model, it was another trend inside the platform economy that was coming back to this idea of more extractivist and commoditizing, not commoditizing products and humans, commoditizing one side of the marketplace. So at the beginning, it was the sharing economy. And when we realized that everything, it was putting in the same bag because of, because it wasn't like a very clear definition about what was the sharing economy. For me, it is still a kind of the powerful of this movement. But the fact is that started with the sharing economy, a lot of the companies started to use it as a distribution channel and trying to get a piece of the pie. And then appeared some platform cooperatives that it was like the reaction of the system in order to fight against more capitalistic platforms. But then started with the gig economy that it was worse because at the end it was the commoditation of the producers. And because of that, the reaction or the pattern that we are seeing is that it's emerging this creator economy that is coming also from the passion economy. That is basically if you have a passion, if you have a knowledge or experience or something that you can use or you can deliver in a platform strategy or in a platform environment, you can generate incomes from what you know or you have the experience. This is super relevant because there is like emerging a lot of applications and platforms in order to help you to run your own life, to run your own business. And this is super relevant because with the We3 and with the DAOS, we are seeing like how we are like aggregating or yeah, I would say aggregating again, people, these creators, economy producers. At the end, all of us are creators. It's not that it's just one part of the citizens. We are all creators. We all have something that we can bring to the market. So and now they are like joining communities built on blockchain in these DAOS that are community ownership with shared governance and is distributed as well or decentralized but has other kind of characteristics that are making easier and easier to communicate and to coordinate between us in order to achieve some common goals. And it's very interesting because at the end it's agent-focused strategies. So the most important is to create the space that is the definition of platforms, create the space for the producers and consumers to interact and to transact between them but about all to create value. I absolutely love that. And I have to, you threw out several different economic models or types that are out there. So we wanna get into the depth and substance and we wanna go deeper but I wanna kind of unpack a little bit more of the terminology to get people up to speed where we're going with some of this terminology so that they can be on the same wavelength. Really we saw the emerging of this, you know, the worldwide web was supposed to be decentralized and distributed for everyone kind of a thing. And then we really got into after the internet was established, you know, a lot of file sharing peer-to-peer networks, Napster and many other ones that were out there and the big push of peer-to-peer really was born and again, another crisis. So around 2008, there was a global crisis and a lot of people reacted, you know, with this creator, with this gig economy and started creating and self-organizing and generating value and what they could program, code, create to do. And a lot of this kind of emerged but in that process that you just described, you mentioned numerous types of models, numerous types of economies, you know, shared value, gig economy and so on. I want you to help us to understand and where they're all going. What are all those one model? Are they all separate models? Is it one that we should say, hey, I'm living and breathing the gig economy, that's the economic model I'm working in or can you be working on the gig economy on a regenerative economy or circular economy at the same time or are they all different? How do you understand that? And what do you see in this development that kind of defines some of these terms that you threw out there to us so that we can understand them a little bit better and how that process is now evolving? Yeah, so the macro term that we are using is platform economy. So all these businesses, communities, whatever that are using platform mindset and technology in order to coordinate value creation. This is the common thing between all of them. The only, the difference is that how is concentrated, I would say the benefit captured by the platform. How is the 10% or the 10% that is captured by the platform itself or how is distributed among the participants in the platform? So platform cooperativism is that. So it's community-owned and they share the governance, the decision-making. In the case of the gig economy is the platform that is capturing most of the value and the producer is a kind of commodity inside. So it's the same that you are using or you are taking an Uber car or another. So the driver is very little difference. So they are not putting the focus on the producer. They are putting the focus on commoditizing this kind of service. The other way is the creative economy. The creative economy is focusing completely on the producer. So, and this is something that platforms do really well because they introduce this idea of having multiple producers serving personalized items, services to these consumers that are looking for something special, something that needs to fit with what they are looking for in price, time, for whatever. So the focus is on the producer. If the focus is on the producer, they are trying to empower them. But at the beginning of the creative economy that it was more about focusing on content or influencer content generation economy or this kind of environment or context, it was like repeating the same pattern of the most capitalistic platform. So the YouTube, the Facebook, Twitter and so on trying to capture most of the value. So because of that, they started to use their own applications, platforms, tools in general in order to run their own businesses on their own rules. So, and because we have all these applications of platforms and tools, they can do it. This is the thing for me. They can do it because the availability that we have of these tools. So it's also a pattern of a bundle, a bundle, bundle to a bundle to bundle. It's aggregating, aggregating, aggregating, aggregating. And this is a very interesting pattern because we are at that moment in a moment of this aggregation with a lot of applications or platforms and tools in order to help this booming a creative economy in helping them to generate incomes. And it's super interesting because at the end, I am sure that it's also a big opportunity on putting or setting the base, the rules of what we want to build. So if we need to create a new platforms for all these creators or all these Web3 users, so we can use it, the lens of regeneration in order to create a really, really a change on how we coordinate value creation and how it's impacting in our environment, in our societies in general. So I think that this is something that system thinking and for sure living systems is bringing to this idea. It was the theme that I was most interested in in understanding how really nature works or living system work in order to apply it as a lens for design regenerative platforms or platforms strategies for regeneration. This is, I think that the most interesting thing. I really love that and that's why we initially connected. So because I like your way of thinking and systems and how you use the model of regeneration as the way that the world has really always worked and that it's one that can go on pretty much indefinitely. One thing that we've discussed before is that platforms are systemic dynamic models. They're the systems you approach to solving some of business and organization and life problems and issues and kind of a model for the world that have worked pretty well. And as you've mentioned and it's really in the heavy in the gig economy and hardware and software and developers use platforms a lot. And as we know, and you can tell us a little bit more about this as well, platforms are being used in the millions around the world. People are running or in the platform model system. Boundaryless.io is basically already got 70,000 people and organizations who are using that model of platform model as well. It's something that really works well and we can see it when we get into these, the worldwide web and technology where things are systems of systems, different plugins and apps and this way of looking at that. But can you tell us a little bit more that we might not know what are the real numbers in the world of kind of people using this platform model? How many are using it effectively? How many are using it not effectively? Kind of as a commodity and kind of where we sit today in that aspect, can you have some of those numbers? Yeah, so well, platforms are very different between them. So we can compare Amazon with Apple or with Facebook or with AB and B. So they are very different in the way that they operate. In any case, the common thing is that they are using the platform like the tool and also the mindset creating this space for the producers and consumers to interact and designing for relationships, putting the elements in order to generate trust in order for the interactions to happen because if there is no trust in the ecosystem, there are no interactions. And so I would say that there are some numbers out there talking about the seven of 10 enterprises or companies are platforms, already platforms. I think that so I don't know if it was Robin Chase from Fibcar that told something like if everything that could be a platform will be a platform because it's a more efficient way of organizing value creation is more transparent because of the ratings that people, bidirectional ratings the users and consumer giving them in the platform and they are more economic because once you have the structure, the infrastructure so the cost of aggregating new producers or new assets whatever in the platform is almost zero and also because they are using network effects. So more people using the platform is more valuable for everybody in the platform. So because they are leveraging on network effects is more scalable. So yeah, I would say that I don't know if everything will be a platform but most of the business models out there will be a platform. So. They run on that, yeah. In Europe, I've heard numbers of 28 million people in Europe are working in the platform economy and that the seven of the top 10 most valuable companies in the world are running a platform economy. I actually think globally it's a lot more and people don't even know that's really kind of what they're running and what they're on because it's just a model that works. It's one that's almost autonomous and if it's set up right, if it's applied correctly it's one that addresses all the facets of a complex organization. And the reason I kind of ask about that is really is the systems view of life approach is the systems dynamic modeling the way the limits to growth wrote about it in 1972 and MIT came up with the systems dynamic modeling in the world model three at MIT, Don Alamedo's, Dennis Meadows, your grander Steve Barron Jr. wrote the limits to growth and they were all creators of this world model three that use systems dynamic modeling to kind of model our world. And so it's really platforms are a systems dynamic model that's really been there for a while. We're calling it platforms and it is very successful. It's a direction in the way that the world works in this complexity science and systems science. But now we're throwing something much more powerful into the mix. And that is we've discussed regenerative ecosystem platform models. And so not only does it have this systemic and the system science in it inherently now it's adding in the ecological phenomenon of symbiosis or regeneration. And so I maybe you could say, you can address or I can, how long this has been around? Because the last five years I've been asked to speak on regeneration probably 20 or 30 times. And everybody seems to think because I have a lot to do with agriculture and food as you know that I'm gonna talk about regenerative agriculture but I always talk about regenerative economies and regenerative models that have all the things that we're discussing here today and how is that evolving? How did you come up to it? And can you explain it a little bit to us? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I think that we are more mature as a society because we can't or we think that we can trust on institutions we need to really to organize ourselves because we need to because we want a new model or a regenerative model. So I think that the emergence of all this kind of thinking about system thinking or a regenerative thinking, living systems thinking is really something that emerges from us looking for solutions for what is not working. And because I think really think that we are more mature as a societies. We are like at the moment of taking responsibilities about what we are building. So for sure that more people have more awareness about what we really or how we can include nature and natural environments in the equation of when we are building businesses. So and all these people now is inside companies. So most of the people that connect with me are people that are at the same level of thinking, looking for that kind of solutions. Maybe they can't put it on words or they can put labels on that that I prefer not to put labels because when you put labels you are like a constraint in the thing. But in any case, I think that this is because we are more mature, we want to be adults in this adult we need to take responsibility of our ads, of our business. And then we are really learning and how to do it. So yeah, I feel that it's a very, very organic and natural evolution. I've heard you say in the past that you call it almost the second renaissance. And that's interesting because really one of the first scientists, one of the first artists, one of the first people to really write and talk about regeneration was Leonardo da Vinci. And what I've seen, and I mean, I have a big stack of books here, I mention books all the time on the podcast that talk about Fritz Hof Capra or talk about that are written by Fritz Hof Capra or talk about different Italian authors, different Spanish authors or that there's these cultures or communities that very much have this almost a Latin renaissance or a renaissance in general of where these things have been around for a long time. This is not new, it seems new. It seems like it's something that's trending and it's going beyond sustainability, it's going beyond ecosystem services, it's going beyond platform. But it's really not, especially since you say it's the second renaissance, right? So it kind of explained that to us to let us know or help us understand how this is not just a new thing, the new trend that we're jumping on. Yeah, well, the renaissance was characterized by that. It was like a moment of really of intellectual, cultural creativity, new ideas putting in question how the things work at that moment. So we are like living at this second renaissance that some creator or economy, as friends are talking about and I am really, really agree with that because it's like we are living in this moment of creativity, of being aware of that we are creators in this world and that we have the tools in order to do it. So I think that it's a moment, a very interesting moment in the story. We are in the, as Lisa Genski, one of my friends and wealth leader, she said something like we are in the moment of the not yet, we're in the moment of the no more and in the moment of the no yet. So we are in this middle moment, but I think that we are more close to the not yet. And yeah, so we are creating new things. We have the tools in order to have this autonomy to create. We can coordinate because we don't want to do it alone. And we are joining communities with the same interests in order to do new things or to create new things that it was one of the reasons because of the collaborative economy or sharing economy in the United States was born because people wanted to really to stay in community again, because it was really, no, it was so isolated. I am a freelance and it's like I don't want to be alone. I don't want to create alone. I need my tribe and I have my tribe in Gwisher. That is like, yeah, the community that I joined two years ago and I'm still there. Like now I'm the president of Gwisher Spain because we are an organization that is distributed. We are an independent organization and nonprofit at a thin tank and two-tank and we are a distributed community. We learned a lot about how to manage a distributed community. That it was no easy at the beginning, how we can manage the sessions, how we can create the space for everyone to show the potential, how we took decisions, how we organized everything. And it was super interesting. We have a lot, yeah, a lot of learnings about that. So I think that this is an interesting moment of the story. Well, I think it's really interesting because you educate organizations, corporations, and especially at the EU level on the age of 2020, you're educating them on some new models, but there's two aspects in there that I'd like you to tell us about, which I really love because it gives me hope in this world of broken systems and kind of a dis-ease around uneasiness with some of the systems in the world. And the biggest one is really in government and bureaucracy and organizations that are bureaucratic or in politics where it's very bureaucratic or even in governance where the models, this regenerative platform model is one that really gets you in into those barriers of entry that disaggregates the market. And obviously the biggest one that's very complex is food systems. And so I would love to kind of hear about how this model really helps in those situations, especially foundations, NGOs, those who are really trying to offer planetary services or make the world better in some respects for people and planet. And then also if you touched earlier on DAOs, which are decentralized autonomous organizations, and that's also very similar to what you're just talking about, which is another form of model. Could you tell us a little bit about those positive experiences or how you talk to people about that and what's emerging, what's coming out of that? Yeah, so the first thing is that at the beginning it was more like traditional companies trying to understand how to really move their industrial or more linear pipeline business models into a more ecosystemic or platform business models. It was at the beginning. Because now it's a mainstream platforms, there are more governments or public institutions that are very interested in understanding how they can use it in order to really generate a major impact and also to understand how they can keep being relevant in the market or in the society. Because if they can help us evolve, if they can't really take care of us, that is not a question of taking care because I don't like paternalisms in institutions, but in any case, I don't know what is going to happen with them. So it's interesting because they are started to talk about platforms and about regeneration and about that and so it's easy to understand. So the thing is platforms really make sense in the more bureaucratic environments and also in the more fragmented ones. So if you have an ecosystem, people interacting in some way that they are already doing something, you can think about whatever. So what you want is really to facilitate them to connect them, to create the space for producers and consumers to interact and creating some kind of mutualized services in order to help them to evolve. The platforms are really hotbeds of learning. So if you can focus on learning, so and you need to ask yourself how the system is learning. So if you can really go deeper on that and you can really design a space for learning, you have a very powerful space for the communities, for the producers and consumers to really to evolve and to using their capabilities for sure to find the place that they need in order to show their maximum potential and their uniqueness. So yeah, public institutions have a real, they have a public serve, so they need to really to serve to the citizens. So I would say that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense to develop platform strategies and more and more that they have to be really regenerative for territories and because of that, we talk about this idea of, well, the pandemic, that we realized that we couldn't really to trust all international value chains. It was the past week, Larry Finn that is one of the CEOs of BlackRock in his letter to the shareholders talking about the war of Russia against Ukraine is really, it's the end of globalization. I think that, well, I think that they sell very well this idea of globalization, but it's not working at all. And I think that we need to come back to this idea that of course ideas or like things could be globalized, but all production needs to be really done in the place. So with this idea of how we can connect with each other in order to evolve our thinking and to learn from others and how we can really develop the strategies in the place in order to be more resilient and to fragile and so on and really regenerate the social issue and the community issues and this, you know, good direction is also creating this cat. Yeah, it's not just the Ukraine war, it's also happened in Brexit during COVID. So huge problems, supply chain, but everywhere's had supply chain and global trade issues during this time where people aren't working the jobs, they're not there to harvest the products, they're not there to run the ships, they're not there to do the things that are necessary. So I'm definitely glad you brought that up. And then the second main reason which you also brought up is we for too long have commoditized products, whether it's farm food, food, agriculture or whether it's cars or computers or whatever it is, we're turning products and things into commodities and trading them on the stock market. And it's basically a way to cheapen products, cheapen and if you cheapen anything, whether it's food or a product, you're actually cheapening life because someone's being paid less, farmers making less money, the producers are making less money. That means people get lower wages or they go without insurance or they're working under slave labor conditions and things. When we turn things into commodities, it really hurts society as a whole. And one of the biggest examples is in agriculture is the Brexit, the United Kingdom produces five times the size of the United Kingdoms, it's food elsewhere overseas. So five times the size of the United Kingdom is the amount of land that they use elsewhere to produce commodities that then get shipped to the United Kingdom for them to thrive and survive. And that's a model in times of pandemic economic downturns that has a limit to growth and has an end to crash. And we've seen the ripple effects of that there and all over the world. And that's just the two examples that Ukraine and the Brexit. And so I love that you address that. Just before we go further, I want you to maybe if you don't mind touch on the Dow, the decentralized autonomous organization, kind of what's emerging, what your thoughts or feelings are there on because that's also can be a very regenerative model as well, it's just still emerging and being kind of how do we make that work because a lot of people are like, they don't really know how that works or what your thoughts or feelings are there. But then I want to put you on the spot after that with really getting into some core principles, if you don't mind departing some wisdom to us on what are some core principles that businesses and organizations can use around regenerative platforms? So there's some certain steps or things that they should be looking at, thinking about to move forward with this concept and you help them to do that. So I don't want you to give away all your wisdom but if you can kind of give us some guidelines as well after you talk about that, I'd appreciate it. Okay, so yeah, well, thinking about value change, you know, very well, that is very linear, right? So we need to really to start to thinking about value networks instead of value chains and becoming or moving from this idea of linearity to an idea of more circularity. So those represent that. So there is for sure who is or a group of people or one individual that is creating the space for others to create value but the difference is that it's not more like this owner of the strategy or whatever, the person who developed the space, creating content or whatever inside the community is everyone creating value. So, and I think that this is something I'm doing like right now on a course on regenerative economics and for sure the most interesting thing is to connect with the other people in the ecosystem and trying to learn from each other and to develop new things. So the DAOS are doing that. So are creating the space in a more circular way for everyone create value in the ecosystem. So this is super relevant. Yeah, and the other thing is that what I'm seeing is that for sure is a super good tool. You know that there is also a very interesting to think about how they are generating the trust in the ecosystem because well, this is an idea of from Sangeet Chaudhary that is one of the relevant thinkers about platform systems and that. So in the industrial era, you the trust was generated by the, or because of the contracts between the two parts, the two sides of the enterprise and the consumer. In the case of the platform economy, it was more about the terms of services that the platform needs to put in order to really to manage the interactions between the entities and also to solve conflicts or whatever. But this I think that this is the more, very interesting thing in order to understand how we can apply the regenerative lens. This needs to be included in the mission of the company. This needs to be included in these terms of service, how you are gonna develop your products and services. And it was also referred to reputation. And in the case of the DAOS, it's more about these protocols, the software itself, but also the consensus model, how you are gonna create new blocks in the ecosystem and how it's gonna be that. And I think that there is the interesting thing, no? How you can add the lens of regeneration in order to really create something that is regenerative. The other thing is that, and it's because I love this idea of managing two worlds that it's about that the platform strategies are more about looking at the outside, looking at the ecosystem, what they are doing and how you can facilitate it. Creating some kind of total asset services in order to help them. In the case of the DAOS or in the case of the regenerative economy, it's more about, it's a movement or it's something that it needs to come or to emerge from the inside. So you can really create regenerative products or services if you are not regenerative inside your company. If you have or you are running a traditional company with the same silos, thinking about value chains and thinking about, you know, or some kind of toxic environments and because of that, we have the big resignation. If you are not really thinking about how you can create inside your company really the conditions for everyone or everything to drive and to flourish, you are not gonna be capable of creating products and services that are really regenerative. So it's a bigger circle of inner and outer. So you learn and you iterate and you apply and you constantly evolving. And because of that, I would say that the most important principle in order to apply a platform strategy for regeneration, it is olism. It's thinking about the one system that everything that you do on one part of the system is gonna impact the other part of the system in a positive way or in a negative way. And this is the most dangerous one because there are a lot of diversity in how can they evolve. And then this is that, I would say, the main principle to think about as a one system, as a whole and trying to design for the benefit of all the entities inside this ecosystem, I would say human and non-human stakeholders represented. So how you can include the voice of nature, the voice of heritage or the voice of whatever, you need to take into account that is something that is contributing in your ecosystem. The other is about potential that this is something that platforms do really well, that is really thinking about how you can empower each of the entities in the ecosystem to show their uniqueness because of that platforms like Etsy are very relevant because you have a lot of creators, producers that are doing very interesting, beautiful things with their hands and all them are personalized. I mean, there is no copy on that. I mean, there is no two things that are the same. And so platforms are doing this very well to leverage on the potential of the entities in the ecosystem in order to generate a really interesting market for everyone. The other thing is that you need to intentionally design for development. So this is not something that it happens without not putting an effort on that. You need to really design for development because platforms are these hotbeds of learning. You can really create the spaces for them to connect. It could be through offline events, it could be through a chat, it could be through whatever you need to do but the platforms that will be are and will be more successful will be that that are really creating communities around them that they can learn from each other in a peer-to-peer relationship. And yeah, I mean. I love it, I absolutely love it. That is so beautiful. And you also gave a wonderful TED talk very much on platforms and very similar. It was in Spanish though. So not all of us speak fluent Spanish and understood it. Can you, do you mind please summing that up a little bit for us and what some other lessons are that you really wanted to convey in that TED talk and bring across to us all to kind of to know about platforms and regeneration. Yeah, so it was a form, I have done a lot of conference on lectures and so on but the TED talk, it was something really different because I was not talking that I am used to talk to CEOs or whatever, people that are starting businesses and so on. It was more for the citizens. And this was difficult for me to understand how to really try to resonate with them. And what I did, it was like, for me it was like a very personal journey developing the content for the content for the tech because it was like, yeah, I wanted not to, because you know what, if you had started to talk about system thinking, living system theories or whatever, I mean, you need to use words that people can understand and can resonate with. So I wanted to go to my personal experience when I was a premium from my first baby. At what moment of this period, I needed, it was like something very strong need of taking care of everything, of creating the space of painting the room, whatever I needed to do in order to really to create the space for the baby to evolve and to be well. So it was like my idea of how to really connect with this idea of return national, that is taking care. And it's something that I think that resonates a lot with us. It's taking care of ourselves, it's taking care of the people who is around, of our families, of our friends, are taking care of the environment. So if we really connect with who we are, this is something intrinsic in us. So the thing is that we just need to remember, we have passed a long time in this linearity, in this isolated or silos, whatever, and with no content with nature. So we need to understand how to do it or we need to learn how, yeah, what is our role? As humans in this, or for many a scenario, even it's not me, you know? So yeah. Even about reconnecting, so how do we reconnect? We've been disconnected from nature and our infrastructures or societies are kind of distanced from our planet and our environment in many respects. And so it's also, I guess, in that process of thinking about, you know, your baby coming and that you're connecting back to what does a world that works for you look like for your baby? And so you wanted to make sure that you created that. And I think that's something that we need to put into to our life as a model as well. And so that really is great because it brings me to the hardest question that I have for you today. I ask all my guests the same question. And it really, I kind of ask it in two ways. One, I always say, you know, what's your answer to the burning question WTF? And it's not the swear word, it's what's the future but there's a more interesting way to say it which we've all been experiencing lately and that is what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? Yeah, well, I would say that it's very similar to some ideas of SolarPunk that is ecology mixed with technology, serving humans in order to achieve what we need to do, to really to create a more collaborative society, one that is fair, where everyone could be or could have health in any, I mean, at any level. And the one that we can treat with respect life because we are one more in this web of life. So we really need to design as everything matters. I absolutely love that, that is so beautiful. And it's so true, I'm glad that you shared that with us because if we don't have an understanding or a feeling what a world that works for everyone looks like, then we don't have a path, we don't have a model to work towards, we don't, and we're kind of going to be taken by some of the models that we've had and the past or currently are operating on that are making us uneasy at the direction that our world is going with wars and other issues and problems. And so I really love that. And at the core, it's everything that we've talked about today and what you talk about is really, it's a new model. It's a regenerative ecosystem platform model. It's a better model for life, one that continues to work for everybody because everything you mentioned is included in that model. It's the basic needs of humanity that we come back and we tell and we agree with each other that we're never going to let humanity get below a certain level ever again that we're all part of this bigger family. And so I really like that. And I love that you're empowering people and organizations around the world with your teachings and your advocacy and your consulting that you do to help them to make the shift. And I know it's not a process that will probably ever end or you've reached your goal. It's one that's a process that keeps going over time. That's a great thing about platforms and regenerative models. They're always evolving and growing and learning and the web gets stronger and in places where it might not be weak then it's built up in other areas that are more important. And so I really like that open-mindedness and the tips and tricks that you've shared with us here today. I have three more questions for you before I'm done and that is really where do you see your evolution going in the evolution along with these regenerative platforms? What do you see before the end of this year and what do you see before December 2030 when we're supposed to reach the Paris Agreement and the sustainable development goals? What's your hope? What's your vision? What will you be working on? And what can we expect to see on the horizon? Yeah, what I'm working hard at that moment is to really to create some kind of framework in order to help whoever is interested. About all companies or enterprises that have a platform wants to really to include some little ends of regeneration and the ones that have regenerative projects that wants to become or understand how to really to create a platform strategy. Because I think that there are like these two worlds sometimes when you are in a more social innovation environment I don't know, it's not a general theme but I would say that they are not very used to technology. So what I want to bring is that some kind of new ideas or ideas or this mindset in order to help them to really to leverage on platform strategies to scale their impact. So in a community ownership way of thinking. So my idea is to work on this framework. I am working hard on that. And yeah, and I would say that I am a learner and it's my position in front of that. I would say that I am trying also to connect with my with whatever is my ancient wisdom in order to really to generate something that is honest. That is not something that is going to be or what people could use it as they want but my mission is really to to build the capabilities inside these organizations in order for them to think by themselves and to change the way they see or they look at the world. Great. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start? Wow. I learn every day. So it's very difficult for me to say if I were, you know, I don't know I am a very extreme curiosity person. So I'm always trying to learn new things. So for me it's like the infinite. It's because of that regeneration also is something that resonates a lot with me because it's not like the goal. It's more the journey that you are starting and step by step you are understanding more and more how you can be regenerative or you can embrace regeneration but because of that what I'm doing is trying to really to enjoy the journey not to look at the final whatever goal. Thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas. It's been a sheer pleasure and unless you have some questions for me or there's anything we forgot to discuss I really appreciate your time and I look forward to working with you more in the future and the release of menu B because your contribution is fabulous and I think a lot of people will really like it and be able to see how it can apply into their business models whether they're a farmer a food producer or whether there used to be a commodity trader that they can see a model that works better for the world and for them. Thank you very much for inviting me and for creating the space for to share and to contribute to this new change of paradigm that we need to. You're most welcome. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Thank you very much. Bye bye.