 Hi, in this video today, we're going to talk about the importance of confidence and assertiveness, and I have just the person who's going to talk about that with me today. Her name is Fern Lee and she is a consultant and executive coach who helps women and men with confidence and assertiveness so that we can live more, we can have more authentic working lives and relate more powerfully to other people. So Fern, thank you so much for being here and doing this interview. Good morning, George. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. And I should mention that your website is TaylorGraceConsultancy.com Taylor T-A-Y-L-O-R Grace G-R-A-C-E Consultancy.com and you have a blog there that you update regularly as well as your email newsletter. So folks who are interested in this might want to check that out. But anyway, let's let's start talking about assertiveness and why is that important today to talk about? I think assertiveness is important because it helps us participate in the world. I was very not confident and not assertive for a very long time. My previous career was as a lawyer and I wasn't very assertive and I wasn't very confident and I realized that I was failing to participate in the world. My voice wasn't heard and I was being beaten up basically. My self-confidence was taking a beating, my self-esteem was low, my self-worth, I didn't feel very worthy of anything. And here I was, you know, 12 years as a lawyer in Singapore and in London. And I was thinking to myself, this can't be right because I've got a voice and I have things that I want to say we all do. So I decided to take a step back and think about how I presented myself to the world and in return how I presented myself to me, you know, how could I be more worthy to myself and how could I be more worthy to help my self-esteem rise basically. And it's really important for us as individuals. And that ripples out into working life as well. We want to be respected by our peers. We want to rise in the ranks because it makes us feel valued and helps us feel that we're contributing to society and to the organization that we work for. So if we don't have that assertiveness, our voice isn't heard and we are sort of pushed along the wayside. And if we don't have that, our self-esteem fails basically. And so it's for our own development and our own growth and our own survival actually to have this assertiveness. Yeah, that's really good. And also, I think it's true for our personal relationships too. This assertiveness is of course so important for working life, but it's also for our relationship with our significant others, even our children, our family, our parents, et cetera, our siblings. And then also I'm thinking about a lot of the folks who are watching this may work from home. Yes. And when it comes to assertiveness, that's why is that important to me because I can imagine a lot of people have a hard time saying no to their spouse, significant other roommate, family member who wants their attention and then that takes them away from the work. So talk about that for a bit and how that relates to assertiveness. Yes. I also, I always say that we have to practice saying no because if we work from home, we become the what I call the go-to person. If the spouse needs something and they have commitments to work in an organization, their times are set between nine to five or six or whatever it is. And the child has commitments as well. And we know the child goes to school from nine to three, comes back, has homework. So our time appears to look flexible to them. And we're the go-to person. Oh, could you just pick up the groceries? Oh, could you just pick up the medicine? Or could you just pick up, you know, fit in whatever it is that you want to say? And we so easily just go, oh, yeah, I'll just, you know, along the way and da, da, da. And, you know, and all of a sudden you realize that your day is just filled with, oh, I'm just going to pick up the prescription. Oh, yeah. And nothing gets done and you get pushed along the wayside. And so everybody who goes to work or school, their priorities come first in your life. So when you get shoved along the wayside, you end up being lost in the queue in your family structure. And that's no good for the way the child views you, I feel. As a parent, the child needs to know that you have some sort of control and assertiveness, that you can say no, the child needs to learn to hear no. And so does the spouse, actually. And that means respect as well. In the working life, you want respect, but at home as well, you would hope that they would respect you as well. And asserting yourself in this way shows them where the boundaries are. And it shows them that you are somebody that they can reckon with, not in a fearful way, but in a respectful way as well, that, oh, mummy or daddy need her time. And it can't be usurped at all, all the time. You can be flexible, but you also have to be firm. And the spouse will also recognize that. So when it comes to making decisions in the household, you are recognized as a voice. Whereas if you keep going, if you keep saying yes to everything and putting yourself last, they don't recognize you as a force to be reckoned with, and your decision and your voice doesn't count. So that's why assertiveness is also very important when you're working for yourself and working from home in a household where they may think that you are the go-to person. And if you allow them to keep thinking that you are the go-to person because you've allowed that as well. So that's why I think it's important, George, to stand up and be assertive in that way. Yeah, and I think people can work with somebody like you to kind of practice those skills in their workplace or in their relationships, because I think it is different for different situations. And one of the things, I think one of the blocks that people might have to being assertive is, I guess, offending other people, maybe, or looking like a jerk or a mean person. Talk about that and how do we deal with that? Well, so when I first started out being assertive, I tried out different versions of what suited me best. And when I first started out being assertive, it was really quite an aggressive stance I took, because I thought that was the way I needed to come out fast and quick and forceful. And I realized that I went from zero to a hundred miles per hour, basically. And the people who were responding to me were like, whoa, where did that come from? She was nice and sweet and kind and all of a sudden she was like, raw, you know, coming out really forcefully. And I was like, okay, maybe I need to take my foot off the brakes and sort of calm down a little bit. And then I realized that there were many ways to say no gently and kind but firmly. And you didn't have to offend somebody to say no. So there are many techniques. I was just talking to a client about that. There were many techniques. And one of the techniques I can suggest now is if you are undecided to just say, I'm going to think about it. And you will be surprised how many people feel respond really kindly to that. Because all of a sudden they're eased into this, oh, she's not too sure. I know straight away, but she's not too sure. Only say it when you're not too sure. I say it even when I want to say yes immediately because that gives me the space and time to think about whether I can actually make this commitment. So it's not just a technique you use to, you know, when you want to say no. It's a technique you also use when you want to say yes, because I don't want to jump in with two feet. I haven't checked my schedule yet. If I can commit that mental space and that physical time to it. So I also use that technique to say, I'm not so sure. Let me think about it. And you'll be quite surprised how unaffended people will be. Another technique is to say, that's not for me. You know, when you say that's not for me, people can relate to that because there are things that are not for them either. You know, and you know, I had a client ask me recently what happens if they keep pressing, you know, no, you'll like it. Of course you'll like it. You know, I know you, you'll like it. And I would suggest you hold firm and just keep repeating the same statement. And after a while, they'll get it or they won't get it and you'll walk away. But it also helps yourself if you just keep repeating the same statement. You'll find that inner strength to just go keep repeating it and you will realize that you will believe it as well. No, it's not for me. No, it's not for me. But you don't have to sound aggressive and you don't have to sound mean about it. It can be in that very gentle tone and sooner or later they'll get it. As for the guilt, George, it's something that we all have to work with. If you feel guilty, then keep reminding yourself that you've worked on it and there is no mental space and there's no physical time for you to do it. And it's better that you feel in a happy place where you can still serve others than to be depleted in order to serve that one person. Yeah, that's really good. And I like what you said about repeating the statement. If they keep pushing back, essentially they're repeating their statement. Correct. And it's about your life. It's about your choices. And so you have the right to have the final say on that. Yes. To keep saying, oh, it's not for me. No, it's not. No, thanks for thinking of me, but I'm going to pass on this or whatever it may be. And the next time they won't push us hard. They'll see you as a person who to be reckoned with as well. And they'll see you as a person who says no and who can take a stand. So they respect you for that. You know, they might not like it at that point in time, but if they're still your friend, they're still your spouse, they're still your child. They realize, oh, mommy or wife or husband isn't to be pushed around. Oh, okay. She has a voice. So next time I'll be careful what I ask of her time because her time is precious to her. So it will be precious to me. Yeah, that's great. That's really good. And time is the one asset that none of us get back. It's like, um, and that is so connected to our self-worth. So talk about that a little bit here. I want to, I'd love to just kind of get whatever thoughts you have right now about how this relates to self-worth, self-esteem. So in, in that sense, time, um, gives you, like you said, George, you don't get it back. So you realize that as you get older, that, you know, uh, time is relative and it speeds up. The older we get, it speeds up. And you realize that, you know, what seems like a month to us, oh, painful month to us nowadays. It's just like, what? I don't have enough hours in the day to fit everything. I want to do in. And I, I, I also run a course called grow your confidence. And it talks about prioritizing. You write down your goals as many goals as possible. And you, you know, sometimes we have 20 goals that we write down and you pick five and you look at them. And you think, gosh, you know, my, my time is running out. Um, I'm in my forties and I've got maybe another 40 years. Okay. So I'm mid, midway through way, I think. And I'm starting to think about retirement and death, unfortunately. And I'm thinking, gosh, you know, what is my legacy going to be? What am I going to say I've achieved on my death bed? Um, what am I going to pass down and what I'm going to leave in this world? Maybe it's a small imprint, but it's still an imprint nonetheless. What am I going to say that's going to count, you know, is my voice going to be heard? And when I started thinking about it in that way, I was like, okay, I've got to show myself. It's not even anybody else in this world. What am I going to show to myself, um, that I've accomplished? What is important to me? And in that sense, my self worth rose by about 10 points, if you want to say it that way, because all of a sudden I'm thinking about what was important to me. I wasn't competing with anybody else in the world at this point in time. When we're younger, we strive, you know, we want to earn more than the next person. We want to get the next, um, promotion. We want to show our bosses. We want to show our parents, you know, um, how we can achieve and it's according to their timeline. It's according to their expectations. But in my forties now I'm going, no, it's my expectations. What am I going to ask of myself when I'm on my last legs? What am I going to leave behind? And all of a sudden I'm thinking, this is, hey, this is me. This is my self worth. This is my self esteem. I'm going to show me what I can leave behind and even if it's the smallest imprint in the world, even if it's, you know, not on my dad's expectation list, you know, she wasn't a doctor. I was a lawyer, but it wasn't a doctor. I wasn't an accountant. But hey, I haven't written the book I have wanted to write since I was six. You know, I haven't run my own business that I've always wanted to run since 10. And whether I succeed or not, I guess it's irrelevant. Whether I tried really hard and made it my own voice is important, is relevant. You know, at least I tried and I gave it as good as I could get. And so in that sense, your self esteem goes up and your self worth goes up because all of a sudden you count towards, you know, your own voice counts to your own expectations. You end up counting, you know. I love that. Yes. And this takes assertiveness to be able to say that our priorities are actually priorities rather than, oh, when everyone else is met, when, you know, one day when the kids are finally out of the house or when, you know, so-and-so is finally taken care of or whatever, then my priorities matter. Right. And what I'm saying is, when is that ever going to be? Because as long as you have human beings around, you know, there's always going to be someone else's needs. Correct. Yeah, so assertiveness, talk about what does it mean to train our assertiveness? I mean, how can we actually, is it possible to do it? And also, I don't know, we have time to talk about this, but I'm curious if there, obviously there's a link between self worth, self esteem and assertiveness. Is there one that comes first? Do we train our self esteem first, or do we train our assertiveness first, or does it happen at the same time? Do you have any thoughts on that? I do, yes. I think it depends a lot on the person, and we can work on it, you know, depending on your coach or somebody that you can go to to speak about this. I think it's a chicken and egg situation, but once you learn about yourself, I always say to my clients, to my friends, know thyself. If you know what your characteristic is like, you know what your personality is like, you can find the ways that work best for you. So I used to think that assertiveness, my self-worth had to come first before assertiveness came first. But I had learned, you know, in the last 10 years, this technique that fake it till you make it. But it's kind of concept, you're just going to keep repeating it's very much like that phrase. No, not for me, not for me, not for me. And the more you repeated it, the more you felt, okay, really isn't for me and that person's going to get it. So it's actually walking yourself through the steps, even though you're fearful and even though you're not confident just yet. But if you keep repeating it to yourself, after a while you're going to get it. So let me relate a story about how I did it. When I was younger, I used, I was a bookworm. And I didn't think I was pretty, and I didn't think I was very smart. And I used to, and actually it was an optometrist who told me this because I would write hunched down and I would write like this very close to the paper. And he was like, no, that's going to give you really bad eyesight. You need to stand, you know, you need to write with some distance from your paper. You can't write hunched over, but I used to do that because I was so afraid of what people was going to read. Nobody was going to read my work, nobody could read it. And I didn't dare look people in the eye. And I came across this TED talk by Amy Cuddy, who talks about power poses. And I was like, okay, I can try that. You know, it's not even speaking. And what I say to my clients is one step at a time. So my one step was to stand up straight. I used to be hunched. I used to be like, you know, books within me and all that. I said, no, I'm going to stand up straight. And Amy Cuddy talks about power poses. And one of them was the Superman pose or the superwoman pose. And now I'll demonstrate. Basically, she says, you feel really different. If you stand with your arms crossed and this is all body language. Stand with your arms crossed and you'll hunch. People will view you as being very introverted and, you know, you're hunched out. But her power pose, which, you know, you'd stand with your legs apart. You can't really get to see it. You do that, you know, and you look up because you're Superman. You're a superwoman. Yes. Immediately you want to laugh when you do that. You know, you want to go, oh my goodness, you can't help but smile. And I don't imagine you going out in the world and just going, haha, you know, but think of that, you know, in the mornings, look in the mirror and do that. Right. But when you go out into the world, when you're facing colleagues, when you're looking at friends and people, think about a less exaggerated version of that, you know, think about standing up straight, checking your tummy in because that's good for you. And, you know, sort of bringing your shoulders back and sort of looking up at them. I'm quite a short person. So looking up at them and looking into their eyes. And that's what I practiced for a long time. And I was, you know, I had to remind myself when I was meeting a friend or meeting somebody else who, you know, I used to work in a really male dominated industry and, you know, looking out to them, most of them were taller and bigger than me and male. And I had to look up to them and look into their eyes and hold their gaze, hold their gaze, which was really scary for me. But I did it, you know, I'd say, okay, one second, I'll hold that gaze. Okay, two seconds, five seconds, 10 seconds, you know. And I practiced that over and over again. And now I was thinking about it the other day. I do it without thinking now. I realized that I was standing up tall and I was looking into their eyes. I was even answering back going, no, I don't agree with that. Without even thinking about it. Whereas, you know, five, 10 years ago, I was still going, okay, remind yourself, do this, do this, do this. So I would say it's a chicken and egg situation, George. And it works with the personality, but I found and I didn't believe about that time that if I practiced it enough, it would come to me. And it did. It really did. That's wonderful. So we have just a few minutes left now. I'd love for you to tell people what is your course on assertiveness and confidence? Right. So I'm running a course in June on assertiveness in the workplace. And in case those who are watching this later, you do plan to run it occasionally on a regular basis. Yes, I do. Yes. So we'll be running it regularly for everyone who's interested later on as well. And it's going to be a four week course and it's weekly online. And we will be talking about the language you use and the nonverbal communication you use as well. How you dress, actually, which is very important. How you present to the world, first impressions to the world. We're going to talk about how you can be firm without sounding bossy or rude. How we can negotiate. I find negotiation to be a really interesting one that nobody talks about. You know, we negotiate every day in our lives, every day. What is your stance on negotiation? How do you negotiate without compromising for values? And how do you stand out at work and at home as a leader with integrity and respect for your fellow workers and yet keep your boundaries? So those are some of the topics we're going to cover in the course. I'm hoping to run in June, George. Wonderful. I will definitely include a link for people to find out more about that and to contact you. You also have a Facebook page where you post regularly. So I'll be sure to include that. Thank you so much, Fern, for this wonderful conversation and for your work in the world. No problems, George. Thank you very much for having me on. Thank you.