 City at the City University. And it's another day on planet Earth. It looks nice outside. It's sunny. It has been a bit tropical here in New York. And the city is somehow trying to find a way to survive this incredible crisis, with one million jobs lost, now restaurants closing, businesses closing, but people sitting outside on the streets and one, even two rows and trying to cope with what most probably might be the most significant experience we have in our lifetime when it comes to a catastrophe. The administration here in the US that has been failing us so terribly, all of a sudden, might even think that's OK to wear a mask, even though the president still refuses to wear one. So he said it might get worse before it gets better. So there seems to be a little bit more of a recognition of a reality that just shows you how bad the situation really is. There's a lot of unrest on the streets for very good reasons. And unfortunately, the forces of this homeland security, someone said wrote an article, it's a fascism made for TV so people can see it, this supportive base. It is a very, very concerning developments and that idea of perhaps we are in a twilight of a democracy and that the authoritarian states and the leaders aren't slowly, slowly inch by inch taking over is more a reality than we might have thought. But of course, we do hope that this is a temporary and it will actually this moment be part of a change. As always, we talk to theater artists from around the world, theater artists who are in the present. That's what they do. They anticipate the future, as Honstier says, who actually will join us. Jacques Honstier next Monday, the French philosopher, he and these artists are a part of the change on the right side of history, the right side of social justice, the right side on that complex fight for freedom and for liberties. And we should listen to them. We should have listened to them always. And they have insights and create meaning that really are of significance and might be of importance, not only for us as individuals, but also for the communities we are in and for the cities and states we are in, but also as an idea how to create our lives, how to learn from them, to imitate and to see what they do and the values they have. With us today, we have a greater contemporary theater artist and it is someone from a country that has contributed so much to the history of theater and to contemporary theater, it's France. And with us is Philippe Cannon. And Philippe, thank you, thank you. Thank you for joining us. I can only imagine how busy you are, how much you do, how much you work. And let me tell you guys a little bit about Philippe. He spawned in 1970 and he actually studied visual arts as many great theater artists and data. For over 10 years, he designed sets for theater, opera and exhibitions. And he created a company, the Ivarium Studio Company and directed his first show and about just the act of falling down and getting up, taking off the idea of steps, of moving. And he hunts, he writes in his biography, the marvelous, the tiny and pushes to the extreme experiences of our daily lives as well as the relationship between mankind and nature. And if you saw his show, The Night of the Moles and by your kerbal, this kerbal, you might have caught a little bit of what this all is about. He collected insects as a child and now works and studies small communities under his microscope. And he thinks of theater as an ecosystem in which he immerses his actors. He did many, many, many shows and works. And since 2014, he is the co-director of Nonterre Amundier, the National Traumatic Center in France. This is a very significant place. These centers anywhere they are all over France, which is a wonderful decentralized system. But of course, Nonterre Amundier because of Patrice Chirot and Coltas, it has a legend around it. It's a significant place. He went to great festivals, Kunstern, he worked at the Munich Kammerspiele, the Staatsoper unter den Linden, and he's been working for the Wiener Fest for the Theater Basel. And as we also know for our friends in Poland, who also are part of the talk here, Tia Barsova. So, Philippe, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us, taking your time. And with us also is Amanda Gan, who's a theater artist, a PhD candidate at Harvard University of the TDM program, the Theater Dance Media. And she again will help us to translate if the moment comes and is of necessity. Philippe, welcome. Where are you and what time is it? Hello, everybody. I will have maybe Amanda for translate sometimes because my English is not so good, but I'm in Paris and it's around six o'clock. So, is the theater or at your home? I'm at home under the roof. And I finish a week of rehearsals with Max Tewart, the choreographer, because I work now with Meg for a new piece as a set designer. And we have rehearsals in Paris in my theater in Nanterre because with the corona, with the COVID, Meg cannot work in Rourth-Reyenal. So the show is a cancel in Rourth-Reyenal and we organize a lot of things for postpone the premiere in November in Paris. Say again, I didn't catch the artist who you worked with. Max Tewart? Oh, Max Tewart. Yeah, sorry, my accent. Max Tewart. Yeah, Max Tewart. Thank you. Voila, voila. And so you can rehearse in France. Theaters have started. What's going on? Tell us a little bit. Yeah, I think the situation is more calm since the end of May. So we can work in theaters for rehearsals, for build sets. And it's not with the complete team because also it's holidays, but it's not only corona. So the situation is, I mean, we can prepare the shows. And of course, with the audience, it's complicated. It will be possible in September with full audience. Normally, they say. The government normally. In December? Yeah. I mean, normally in September, we can open seasons. And audience, if they put mask, it seems possible to have people and to have a full audience. That's the situation. But it was, of course, chaotic. And we have a lot of independent companies in France. You know, it's also the system with Intermittent Dispectacle. It's a social system. And of course, it's a very, very sad situation about festivals and everything. I don't know what can happen in few months after this crisis. Tell us a bit about the rehearsals. Does everybody wear masks? Do people do a test every morning? How does it? How do you feel that no one gets hurt? Yeah, I forgot this question. But yes, now it's strange. People don't need to put mask on stage, of course, because it's too difficult for dancers and actors. It's quite relaxed, I won't say, since one month. Of course, we take care. We clean a lot the theatres, but in Paris, for example, you need to put the mask in a subway, in shops, but not in the theatre if we work. I mean, we don't receive an audience. So it's just the conditions are OK for preparer shows. And I think it's more relaxed than Germany because some theatres, you cannot work. You cannot have more than 10 people in a space. But in France, it's the paradox. Comment tu dis, the paradox? Paradox? Because we had this very strict March, April, and May with the attest as documents for go out, one hour, blah, blah, blah. And now it's Latino country. So it's a mix of two systems, very strict, with a very controlled country and a hard situation, March, April, but now it's a bit Latino part. So it really means you had, I remember, you had to print out a form in your home and your computer, send it, sign it, fill it out, carrying with you in France to go and see if you were on a bicycle, you would get a fine. Even in the evening, you were really strict. And now it was really strange to inscribe the reason why you are out because we had this paper and we had just the possibility with 10 good reasons why we are out, of course, for food, for visit people who need. But I mean, if you say, I need to go out for be inspiring by the situation or visit my theater, it was absurd and a bit more complicated to, yeah. Maybe I can speak in French because it's my language. Yeah, maybe French is better. Also because of the sound, because of the sound, it might help. OK. Yeah, I heard that people in France would meet up at 11.45 in the supermarket next to the tomatoes. And so they had a moment to officially meet because you couldn't go outside. My question is, how was it? We had a lot of meetings with friends. The best place for visit friends was the supermarket. So I had a lot of, if we wanted to see friends, we would meet up at the supermarket to discuss if it was possible. The supermarket was the best place to go. I had a lot of meeting up with friends. It was like the meeting point because everyone was allowed to go there. So, Philippe, that time of confinement, that time of lockdown when you couldn't go out, how did you experience it personally? It's come on, yeah. French, that kind of French. I think, of course, like everyone and a lot on this planet, it was a sort of sideration, a sort of first week, obviously, a big shock to hear the situation and the confinement. But I think it's not proper in France. It was everywhere like that. So obviously, like every place everywhere on the planet, it was a stunning effect at first. In France, everyone was shocked, but it wasn't only us, it was everyone everywhere, really, when we learned what the situation was and what it looked like it was going to be. It was obviously completely incredible that in a few hours, a country full of countries, of states, managed to launch this confinement. And it seemed more unreal than some science fiction films. It was unbelievable to imagine that in the space of a few hours, an entire country, many countries, whole nation states could put in place these kinds of measures. It seemed almost unreal, like a science fiction. And obviously, after this shock, we could say the first attempts to reorganize these practices, and for what concerns our jobs, to see all the annulations and try to rebuild a little bit of a future. So then after the initial shock in the first weeks, there were the first attempts at trying to reorganize work life, especially for people in our industry, all of the cancellations, and then how to possibly get back to work with new means of doing things. And also, of course, in my role as director of theater, in addition to being an artist, to try to organize and support the show that was canceled, and to try to take care of the artists we work with. And then also in my role as the director of the theater, not only as an artist, to try to take stock of how to support all of the shows that were canceled, how to put them forward to a later date, or to really look after the people involved and in those works of art. And a lot of solidarity between the theater colleagues who take care of public theater, to make decisions, to finance or to finance the companies and the impacted artists financially. And a lot of solidarity with my colleagues who run public theaters in terms of trying to finance and provide financial support for those who were impacted by the crisis. Where were you at the moment when it happened? What were you working on? I was in Brazil. I was in Sao Paulo with Farm Fatal, my new piece, my new show. It was amazing. The contrast in Sao Paulo because the situation was quite unclear. And we heard about France. We saw some media who say maybe they will close borders. Maybe they will organize how to stay at home, but was totally abstract. And we were on stage around the 15th March in the frame of the Sao Paulo festival. And it was in a few hours amazing. And the show is the show I created last year for Five Scarecrow. So it's a show about the end of the world, I won't say. Post-Human a bit and it's Five Scarecrow. Talk a lot about OGM and pesticide and how the world is, the human world disappear because humans didn't take care about what we eat, what we drink, and what bad things are in the air. So it was quite strange, the mix with fiction and reality. And we had a plane after the show. And I arrived in Paris, but it was confinement. So I didn't understand well what happened. And I had the first months in this space. You see now the small studio. But completely knocked down. Kao, why? Knocked out. Knocked out. Yeah, and I tried to escape in April in Germany for visit also my friend. And I took a plane. I bought a ticket for Germany. But the police in Germany, when I arrived in Munich, I had five minutes in Munich because the police put me again in a plane for comeback in my country. And they told me the theater is not a good reason for take a plane and work. It's only policemen and if you work for hospital, you have a. And it was really funny. Fine, it was really not funny, but it hurt me a lot. And I stay at home for two weeks a bit like, OK, I had this experience. Theater is not so important. They say police, the police of borders. Of course, it's not so important. But it was a strange dialogue with the. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible. I mean, I think from Thiago Rodriguez from Portugal and Milo Rao that they all were. We were with Thiago in the same festival. The same festival with Thiago. Yeah, and he was in the, I think, in the rainforests and the Amazon to rehearse this. His Antigone Amanda, if you could ask if you talked about post-human theater. Tell us a little bit. It almost seems like you anticipated that moment. Oui, je pense dans les spectacles. C'est assez particulier. Ça fait ça fait une quinzaine d'années que j'essaye de de développer des thèmes. Oui, qui pourrait parler un petit peu de poste humain ou en tout cas de la du constat, de la catastrophe. Et c'est vrai que c'est des thématiques depuis 15 ans de questions sur comment s'envoler, comment accepter les drames écologiques, comment inventer des nouveaux mondes qui me qui sont souvent les lignes aux thématiques en effet des spectacles. So for about the last 15 years, it's been quite a particular set of themes in my work and something that one could maybe classify as post-human or at least the awareness of the idea of a catastrophe and then how to fly away or how to create a new world. Et j'ai l'impression que j'utilise la scène de théâtre évidemment pas du tout pour montrer des grands drames entre les humains. Il n'y a pas de conflit dans mon théâtre sur scène. C'est plutôt justement des humains sidérés de ce qui se passe absolument dans un drôle d'état, des menaces que nous saisons dénumérer sur cette planète. Donc c'est plutôt un théâtre de purgatoire, un théâtre où en tout cas on serait dans l'attente et une mise en scène de communautés humaines très consciente des problèmes mais qui sont aussi en état de hébétude face à ce qui se passe. So in my theatre, I use the stage not as a place for representing great dramas between humans. It's not a, there's no conflict in my theatre but what I try to stage are humans in a state of being stunned trying to understand and make sense of what has happened and what to do next. And that's why we often talk about a theatre of Vivarium Studios that plays in the scene of communities, that plays in the scene of kindness, friendship. And I think that if I look at all the shows I've created, it's often communities of artists that are put on stage. Even if they're topes, it's topes of artists in the middle of the topes. So when I think about all of the shows that I've created, often it is in fact communities and communities of artists that I'm putting on stage. So even if they're moles, they're artist moles in a community of moles. I think it's the same subject since 15 years now. Yeah, I think your theatre decentralizes in a way that human point of view that they are the center of planet Earth, but that actually that we coexist with plants and animals. We have many plants and animals. Where does it come from? Why did you focus since so early on in your work? I think it's very important to work on reconciliation of the species, to try to experiment in art, since it's my job, other paths that would allow to put at the same value a comedian and a plant or a comedian and an animal on stage or a relationship with materials. And I think we're in a world where the reason to be must be multi-specific. And it's not a race story, it's a story of relationships between humans and non-humans. So I think it's extremely important to try to work for reconciliation between species. And so I experiment with art, because that's my medium, with other ways of working so that you could put an actor on the same plane as a plant or a physical material with living material. And so that these, it's not a question any more of races, but really of trying to reconcile the human with the non-human. I think it's also a possible way to invent obviously of the possible artificial worlds, but which sometimes can resonate more and more acceptably than the real world in which we accept humans who guide us and sometimes extremely badly. So it's a possibility of theatre to invent possible worlds that can then be created and brought to life, which resonate as more acceptable and more desirable than the ones that have been realized thus far by, and the ones that are offered to us by the humans that guide us and often guide us poorly. So in my shows, it's possible to imagine that a plant might become a head of state or a stone could start to express itself and perform theatre in a few years. Maybe tell us a bit about Farm Fatale, that play we are present. Yeah, Farm Fatale, it's really a fable, like always that I write with the actors, who invent themselves in a very important way the work process in theatre writing. And it's the five elements that are unparalleled since they no longer have work. Because if the birds disappear from the earth, in the chain of reactions, it's the elements of the show which are put on stage. If I sum it up very quickly, for the magnificent translation of Amanda. I'm doing my best. So it was a play that was written in collaboration, that's very important, in collaboration with the actors. So through a rehearsal process, a kind of feeble. And that's an important way that we have working. And the basic premise is that it's five scarecrows who are out of work and don't know what to do. Because with no more birds on the earth, they are all out of job. But the set of change reactions, if the earth is contaminated, then there are no more insects. If there are no more insects, there are no more birds. If there are no more birds, then there are no more scarecrows. and then, no more. I wanted to look for a nostalgic figure that could speak to humans. So Le Pouvantail is also a very human character, almost like a marionette or a clown. And it brings me to the room, a distance, to talk about things a little tragic that happen on earth and pesticides and other soil problems. So I was looking for a somewhat nostalgic figure through which to speak about the human and the scarecrows seem to me like a character that had such human qualities. So it allowed for a certain kind of distance in order to talk about problems which are very real with the earth. In the room, we see images on the internet. I hope one day I will play in the United States. But they are also like zombies, they have masks. They are damaged. Le Pouvantail is a somewhat fractured figure. It's a bit of people on the side of society. It also reminds people in the street or somewhat rejected figures. And it was also important for me to take a step and it almost addresses a question of the clown by working with Le Pouvantail. So in the play, there are images that are shown that are almost zombie, like disfigured, fractured. The scarecrows, there's an aspect that is very much like margins, figures who are on the margins of society and who images that recall other images that we might see of real people who are on the fringes. So there, the figure of the scarecrows is also very linked to the idea of a clown with the social resonance that that could have. And it's almost my most optimistic piece because they still have a big project in Farme Fatale which is to collect the beautiful things that remain of humanity, a bit like a Christmas tree. And so they have a project of radio where they collect sounds of nature and the things that they would need to be able to keep for another world or another planet. And in Farme Fatale, they actually have a project called the X Project or the X Project. And there's a dimension in there which is much more utopian or a real project to save a part of humanity. So it is, however, the most optimistic of my plays because the scarecrows have a project. They're going to, they have a sort of radio projects by which they're going to collect all the sounds of nature like a sort of auditory Noah's Ark and bring together these pieces of life on Earth that are worth saving. So in that sense, it's a more utopian vision because it means that there are things worth saving and we might be capable of it. How concerned are you for planet Earth? Concerned in the sense, pardon. Thank you. Yeah, that's it. But I'm always concerned. I mean, I do theater because I have no other idea. I mean, I'm super worried about the planet. That's why I try to be artist because I don't know other ways for search how the world can work. And in the arts, you can try. You can test. You can... Er, I'm sorry. Er, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You can miss. You can miss. You can miss. You can start over. You can try. Hypothesis of an acceptable planet. And I mean, you can try an hypothesis in your work, but so it's a... That's why I think that art is much more essential to our lives because we absolutely have to be able to test new territories, to invent new worlds, acceptable and possible. So in art, you have the possibility to try, to fail, to try again, to actually test a hypothesis. And so in that sense, I think that art is absolutely indispensable to our lives because it allows the attempt to imagine a new world and to create a new possible world. There are a lot of formulas that remind us that, even if we talk again about this COVID, humans always have to live with viruses and microbes and bacteria. It's not a surprise that viruses can come and calm down the planet or stop it a few months. It's just an announcement for much more serious things and things that humans destroy that will make new catastrophes worse than this corona that circulates from postion to postion. So it's important to remember that this is not the first time that there has been a virus that throughout the history of humanity, we have been confronted with bacteria and viruses. They've been among us and they have had the capacity to stop the course of human existence so that really this is just like a trailer for many worse catastrophes to come and that if we destroy certain things, we won't be able to rebuild them. And so these things that have always been around can continue. COVID is a virus, but the pandemic is capitalism, as some people say. As some have said, COVID is a virus, but the pandemic is capitalism. What do you think about the situation we are in now, the whole COVID moment? What do you think? We are between something. How can I explain? It's difficult. I have the impression that we haven't yet realized what has happened, but now we are in a moment for many countries, not all of us. We are in a moment of waiting. We have had the feeling that we were given individual freedoms. We have the right to leave. Some leave on vacation. We have stabilized emergency measures that have relieved the population, maybe more fragile. But all of this is very precarious. I feel like I'm in a moment of waiting. I don't know how to explain this, but there is a suspense. I feel like I'm in a waiting period that perhaps we haven't fully taken the measure of what's happened that in some countries, not all, there's a sense that we're being given back some of our individual liberties. We can go out. We can go on vacation. There are security measures that have been put into place. put into place and there are some some measures that have to some extent helped out some of the vulnerable populations but it all feels very precarious and that in a sense we're all waiting for what's going to happen. C'est des notamment sur l'art ou sur l'éducation ou sur les services public de la santé des choses qui étaient déjà présentes en France qui étaient extrêmement fragiles des situations des plus globalement des services public qui qui ont été mis à rue des preuves. C'est quelques mois donc je ne suis pas je ne suis pas surpris de ce que le virus déclenche comme thématique très inquiétante sur la question de l'état des services publics et du coup de la notamment de la culture en France ou de l'éducation je me répète là mais où des hôpitaux qui ont été quelques mois avant l'objet de grandes manifestations pour défendre les hôpitaux et les moyens donnés à la santé donc ce virus même est un révélateur de ce qui était déjà en dysfonctionnement terrible. So the virus is really just revealing a set of circumstances that were already dysfunctional speaking only of France so it's not to do grand theories about everywhere on the planet but in terms of the issues that it raised in terms of art of education of health services of sort of public services more generally were already fragile before the pandemic happened and so it put a number of these fragile services to the test and to come back to the question of health services there had already been before the pandemic protests to try to get greater greater assistance for health services in France so the fact the fact of the extremely disturbing events that the pandemic has kicked off really only further uncovered the extent to which those public services were dysfunctional and so it raises a lot of disquieting questions about about the future of of art education of culture and of all public services in France do you think things will change in France will there be serious changes I don't know I mean it's it's clear we had some election a few few days ago few weeks some mayer change in France we have now more ecological mayors in France but I don't know it's really it need time now for observe if this government can realize and how deep we can change some things and I don't know it seems urgent how to say sparradra or thoughts something about it has been decided things quickly but now we have to work you know what happened it's not it's not the crown is that these measures say emergency I don't like this word emergency measures they were necessary but but it hides what you really have to work harder the emergency measures in his opinion are they're kind of like like bandits that all they were really do they were necessary at the time perhaps but all they're really doing is is covering over deeper and more significant issues that that need to be addressed because the school is not just a place to do maintenance to take care of parents to go to work and earn money it's it's a it's a place of education and there we have a little bit confused in this moment of urgency so I hope that things that should be changed in our French society or reinforced will be able to continue in the right direction I'm not very optimistic in terms of teaching children or you know of public education the very very few means were given to teachers in order to continue to do their work the the structures that were put in place that were considered urgent emergency measures were confusing the idea of what a school is meant to be that it's not not just a type of child care service where you put children so that parents can go to work it's supposed to be a place of education and so there there there needs to be a reevaluation of the investment in that in particular to see if if the actual goals can be returned to and and then strengthened but I'm not very optimistic sur la culture et l'art les propos de notre président de la république était extrêmement arrogant je dirais et absolument déplacé l'art est pas seulement une animation pour les populations c'est c'est c'est plus profond parfois donc on a été invité vous avez peut-être vu ça dans les médias se réinventer on a demandé aux artistes de nous réinventer président macron mais c'est des choses qui sont qui sont qui sont extrêmement naïve en tout cas qu'on ne peut pas ça ça pourra pas suffire c'est c'est beaucoup plus sérieux l'art so in terms of art and culture the the words that were expressed by by the president were arrogant and off base in the sense that he described cultural activity as a sort of purely entertainment for the population and so asked quite naively you know artists to reinvent themselves um as though it were that simple but um but the matter of art it goes much deeper and art is a much more serious practice than that in fact pour pour aller plus loin dans la question de franck je dirais je suis très curieux de ce qui est ce que les artistes vont avoir ressenti comme inspiration après ces mois absolument chaotiques et peut-être qu'ils ne sont pas terminés quelle incidence dans le travail des artistes des auteurs des musiciens des poètes comment on va comment on va être je dirais obligatoirement inspiré je dis pas ça que dans le positif qu'est ce que va que ce mouvement de covidisme presque comme un mouvement qu'est ce qui va se passer comment comment l'art va être nourri de cette ce drame ou c'est ce problème qu'on a traversé qui va continuer sans doute ça je suis curieux so to go perhaps deeper into your question franck i'm curious about how artists are going to to be inspired and not only in the positive sense by this this period that we have lived and are going to live in the coming coming months how you know poets musicians artists of all kinds are are going to be nourished by what they've what they have felt what they have discovered and and how that's going to one maybe could almost talk of a of a movement covidism that may come come up when when we can really discern what the impacts of this experience will be in the works of of all all kinds of artists so i'm sure about that je parle de ça pardon en premier parce que finalement les conditions économiques et le désastre économique bien sûr bien sûr aussi une question mais je parle je voulais je voulais dire par là juste la curiosité avec laquelle l'art va prendre en compte tout tout tout ce qu'on a traversé voilà mais bien sûr qu'il y a une dimension économique de frontières également où les marchandises culturelles vont pas circuler de la même façon donc par exemple nous qui faisons un métier de tournée de spectacle ça aura forcément un impact celle là déjà c'est déjà c'est déjà un impact sur nos sur nos métiers so i speak about that because because it is a curiosity and the other the other problems are to some extent obvious the economic impact is severe the fact of all of the uh you know for for us we we do um you know we do tours there's all kinds of uh of cultural products that aren't going to circulate um so to those those negative effects are already are already happening and and will continue to happen but uh but i am curious about um about the the way it will impact the the content of future creations for you as an artist you said i am curious how artists feel and what they discovered and how it will change what did you feel what did you discover do you think your work will change uh me not me not because i i i work always about problems and catastrophes and ecological uh monast so now it's for me it's clear i will continue my way uh and also the the question uh about maybe more in science fiction i have the feeling i don't know why i am next season i was also on the way for this new piece in basil uh the title is cosmic drama so i will write maybe i will i will continue my way but maybe maybe the future this future piece will be more really after the end of the world in 200 years so but it's not new for me i i i have just the feeling and it's it's it makes me sure about what can i do on stage and to put more questions and i'm also curious i i had time for read more maybe during covid about more problems more catastrophes i was not specialist about permafrost or this next problem sure maybe a virus from mamut or from caveman i don't know it's it for be for be funny i once it's inspiring to read the more problems uh can be a big subject for my next show i'm sure um but uh now the question is more economical if i cannot go on tour and i mean i work with i have chance i have many partners from festivals and all over the world uh and sure if it's more complicated to move with with one show no not not for ecological reason and planes and blah blah blah but if it's clear clearly borders are closed again with covid and uh this this this part sure will change my work in terms of uh experience and because it's so it's a big chance to to to to go on tour with with with the same show and it's je voudrais dire ça c'était c'est vraiment presque une une raison écologique d'essayer de défendre un répertoire de spectacles moi j'ai tourne encore la mélancolie des dragons c'est un show qui a été créé il y a plus de 12 ans et c'était aussi des raisons importante je crois pour nous artistes qui inventons des spectacles on appelle des écritures de plateau je je crois qu'on a on a essayé de jouer le plus longtemps possible nos spectacles et ça ne peut se faire que condition d'avoir un des territoires étendues et des possibilités aussi dans les autres pays donc ça cette question là elle est vraiment insuspense et on est très en attente de ce qui va devenir so in terms of the uh the theatrical ecosystem there's almost an ecological imperative for shows to tour for for artists to do a type of play writing which is on the stage through rehearsal in order for those those things to survive they need to have as long a life as possible and that requires the largest possible territory on which they can be played and so if because of the situation or other developing situations those those borders become restricted that not sure what's going to happen for for the life of those types of pieces c'est drôle je je pensais une anecdote mais c'est la première fois avec le moment qu'on traverse moi j'édite pas du texte les spectacles sont absolument fin l'écriture et le langage des mots sont indissociables pour moi des matériaux de la musique de la scénographie de ce que les acteurs chaque soir en interprète c'est la première fois que je me pose la question est ce que je vais éditer le texte de farm fatale pour le diffuser autrement que que le propre show voilà par exemple c'est une question nouvelle pour moi so this is a this is a question that's being posed for me for the first time so i don't publish any of my works for me the the words that actors speak on any given night are indissociable from music or from lighting from space from other elements and so it never occurred to me that they should should be published or fixed and this is the first time so farm fatale the the piece that we were doing when this hit is the first time i'm asking myself the question is should should i publish a written text in non tell how does the audience connect to your work in america of course the theater is highly commercial entertainment you go see the before after a dinner and the majority not of course the theater we like and we are close to but the big american theater system so how are audiences in non tell connecting to your work but we have sure we have this chance we have a public money for for support the the program mission so we we for example non tell you pay the ticket 10 euros 10 euros it's it's quite a eight dollar yeah eight dollars it's it's very accessible and we have a lot of students and young people because it's a big question how you can deal when you want uh when you are young when you are maybe for for the people more modest and that's clear decision for example in non tell so we don't we don't receive a lot of the billetry of the show but it's not it's not an important source of funding so we did other we made other choices to have a public that will be renewed so in order to make things accessible to to people of modest means to students and for to have as much circulation of people in into the theater as possible the box office at non tell the box office revenue is not a major source of funding and they have accepted that and found other ways of working such that they do not depend on on box office receipts we are also located in a west bank of paris near the largest faculty of france at non tell university and it was a public mission to hold a theater and try to adapt the conditions and with a population also local who are rather low-income and it was important and the public for seven years completely renewed more than 50 percent of the public in less than 30 years so uh also the theater is located in the western outskirts of of paris in a neighborhood that is predominantly working class but where there's one of the largest university sites um as well non tell and so uh in the the last seven years there's been really a push to completely overhaul um the the accessibility of the theater to to public since they're now about 50 percent um of the audience's people under 30 um so the directive for the the past seven years that the artistic directive for the past seven years um it's now my last year um has really been uh a connection with uh with authors and uh i mean that in the broadest sense so choreographers um other forms but uh authors who were uh who were writing on the stage or as part of a live process um where it um and you referenced let's say susan kennedy milora joel pomegran claude régie so these are artists who um you know who are not just writing for the stage but seeing uh writing as part of a scenic process um and so that's that's been the artistic direction of the theater in the past seven years so um seven years in in non tell where we where will you go afterwards and this time now did it make you think of uh how to uh how to produce your work in a different way i will come back in a independent company with vivarium studio so i switch off switch on the company again uh and let's see but i i won't go um so i will i don't search a new space uh like a director um i i'm i will just start uh i have many projects but like uh artists not um i mean for now because it was a strong experience seven years in non tell amandier and i'm curious to observe the the world and the politicians but from the the the position the artist position and not the entendant maybe not maybe just for a few months because i i like this mission to be also curator or program at her met let's see i'm i think it's nice for me to to have a break pause so i have a project in in basel like uh i will create this show cosmic drama i will work in poland with uh tear vasaba you mentioned uh with the ensemble in 21 and and some exhibitions installation i am i have full of many projects but i will recreate uh independent um conditions um here in new york um because of black life meta movement there is a strong call yeah that institutions have to change we have to change as people but also institutions have to change and people wonder do institutions change will they can they you came as an artist with unusual ideas to an institution were you able to change the institution yeah i think it's it's a mission sometimes some artists they they need to take responsibility um that's that was the plan in in hunter to to to keep the key for a few years of the institution um but yeah it's it's it's necessary to change all the time i mean every day but it it's neither passions and and i mean this situation i don't know in in in u.s but i like this possibility in france to be director and also rest um responsibly an institution and it's it's special it's special and uh it's only in theaters because in visual art or museums you you never see artists you you but why big subjects how to change institutions and wake up politicians and wow it's um but yeah yeah i'm i i i try to think uh about this part and not only my work what experiences did you make or that could be a value for america what what did you learn in that process i think i was extremely uh we're talking about the theater of nether yes um in fact the biggest importance was how we were able to give the means to the artists to take the time to try to invent shows uh to never predict to never uh suppose what the artist is going to create and and that's what created and finally constituted a force with the public it was really invented and it's to create an experience place where things are not predetermined or the success of artists is of course desirable but where things don't have the time to mature on the time of germing, plant vocabulary, and that's something you shouldn't forget because that's not the political time, the political time wants results, it wants rapidity and the planet is going to the planet is going to be too fast, you have to the time of germination and all plants don't push the same speed so the most important thing that that we tried to find was a means of actually giving artists the the time to to seek to experiment and without the having to foresee what was going to happen and those were the the creations that had the most force with an audience and of course one wants uh every show to be successful and the real crucial piece of it is is time so in the sense that um work in order to be truly experimental it has to have uh it has to have time to to take root and to to mature and to grow and uh not all plants grow at the same rate um so the words frequently were influenced by um by a perception of time that's coming from the outside that's political time, political time wants results um but in in fact in order we what we looked for at Nantes was how to give artists the means to really um to really germinate and and grow work from seed to to sapling that is uh that is a great um a great mission and in America at the moment it's a big call for diversity in ensembles in uh playwriting and directing but also people behind people lighting technicians, producer, costume designer that there's a call that diversity of a city has to be represented in work but also by workforce. How is that on the mind of French theaters and how is that on in Nantes? Commencez en France, est-ce qu'est-ce qu'il y a ce même appel? Mais pardon, j'ai compris, ok. Bah oui oui c'est c'est simile, enfin je sais pas si ça concerne aussi les milieux des techniciens mais bien sûr c'est c'est très important, c'est question de parité et de représentation homme-femme ou les gens bien sûr c'est c'est peut-être quelque chose qui est en route depuis depuis 3-4 ans on s'en plus de vigilance pour que les saisons, la passion dont les lieux sont dirigés respectent plus une parité. Il y a encore beaucoup de chemin à parcourir parce que pour moi la parité c'est aussi des cette chose dont on peut parler un peu des multis espèces il faudrait aussi que So there's there's some attention being paid, I'm not sure if it extends all the way to the more technical aspects but certainly for a few years the idea of equality in general and more specifically the idea of male-female equality in terms of representation and in terms of artists being selected for a season, the direction of different theaters has been taken into account there's way further to go but I would I would also advance that what interests me is a sense of parody of representation in terms of multiple species as well as multiple types of human beings. Bit louder, it's not so good to hear if you can speak a bit louder or Yeah Ah Les gens qui inventaient des spectacles, on appelait pas forcément ça du théâtre. Faire du théâtre c'était partir d'un texte. Donc les choses ont changé, c'est pas une histoire de parité ce que je raconte ici mais c'est aussi quelque chose qui est en train de muter. Aujourd'hui on parle de créateurs de spectacles et la construction est bien plus importante des gens de spectacles qui inventent des formes. So 15 years ago when I when I started directing the what people who were developing new types of performance they it was said that they weren't doing theater. What it was to be a theater director was to start from a text and then create something. So in terms of the question of parody for me I feel like there's a there's a transformation going on where there are a larger range of things that we consider as you know being a creator of performance is a category that did not exist before. So there are there are transformations that are taking place in terms of the way the ways people are thinking about forms. Yeah yeah and and I think the the great contribution you know of your work to theater or contemporary theater like other artists but especially also in your work is really to go beyond what we might say of a representation of a diversity of of artists from different continental backgrounds but also to think of plants of animals. I also know you have robots are moving objects on stage. So it says something that I think is of real importance a dramaturgy of simultaneous representation of how we experience a planet earth that we are in the ecosystem that we are depending on it and Philip's a great concern that the human species might fail and now we learn perhaps for the first time that yes we are endangered too. There is nothing found or another virus come. It could be as someone wrote that book the Eritreum for a species it could be the very end and as Latour says this is perhaps a general rehearsal. If we fail this time we don't find the right answers to COVID. The next thing that come might be much stronger and we will not be able to to find solutions. So the worker of Philippa is of great great significance and to look at it in a philosophical way of a representation of reality to remind us that we are a part of a sphere of 10 feet or 10 meters below the earth and 10 meters or 20 above the earth that's that sphere that critical zone that matters and that perhaps in the times we live in as he said just to write the play just to interpret the text is no longer good enough. We need to find new ways of acknowledging that reality what we all have to think about in COVID I think is forcing us to do it. So you have been a pioneer I think in a way of creating such forms that make us think rethink and reframe and understand the window we look out on reality has been already put in by someone. So maybe the window is wrong. We have to look differently and open open the walls of our thinking we are coming closer to an end so what did inspire you at the time were you reading things were you seeing things online where you're listening to music what inspired you evident that in France there is a thought of the philosophy that really joins the thought of people from theater and spectacles and vice versa that is to say that I since a few years Bruno or people like maybe Emmanuel and Cochia you know or Marielle Massé or others are also very inspired by the way in which the people of the living show work maybe for this capacity to try things to test to repeat and to try to hypothesis so it's an interesting remark I we work a lot with Bruno Latour in Nantes and then in we've produced performances of with him in the past and there's a current in France of philosophical thinking and theatrical creation informing one another and that they the capacity to to create a hypothesis and to and to test it is sort of common to to both so that's an area of cross pollination at the moment we had with us yeah and I think this is perhaps an expansion in the field and perhaps also for theater studies it will be perhaps an engagement that the field is changing as an engagement with philosophy again to understand and create a meaning David Byrne famously said stop making sense in his famous film the music but there maybe again it's also time to make sense to create meaning and to engage and I think France as a theater country is there perhaps here a bit in the avant-garde due a system that is makes it possible there's a funding for the arts that is not connected to a return of tickets that there are experiments possible to focus on what is essential and it is essential even so Philippe was returned in Munich and I'm so sorry I can only imagine Philippe in front of a German policeman who says no theater is not essential go home so I apologize for that and of course you know it's the virus in there as a closing remark or question for young artists maybe artists like Amanda or artists like Philippe when you started a visual design or others who are now going in the fall to universities where they cannot be in a room they cannot rehearse they are in front of computers what do you say to such a young audience audiences and young artists and perhaps also to our listeners what do you say is of importance to focus on the creation of the workshops and the threatened repetitions I think that in any case the art must always be given the means of how to say the art must always be reinvented the situation of real life so I do not necessarily want to give advice to young artists but it is obvious that it must be reinvented it is terrible it is weeks that we have gone through there have been a lot of people in schools who have not seen each other there has not been human contact I also do a lot of teaching at school and people were by zoom this very abstract form of social contact so I'm not sure that there's a specific piece of advice to give I have to hold on but art always has to give itself the means of surviving but it's not easy these past weeks have been extremely difficult and the type of contact that especially that young people are used to having the human contact involved in teaching as someone who does a lot of teaching I realized that that zoom is not it's a very abstract form of something that's very real so the the the only thing to do is to try to keep going and to reinvent if and and where and where possible If it had to last for a long time, it would be difficult to travel. It would be necessary to reinvent more long time of maturation. It would be difficult to produce. If it goes on, if this type of situation does continue, then perhaps we have to develop or strengthen our faith in research. If we're not able to circulate, we're not able to gather. We're not able to necessarily do the same collaborative practices that we're used to. Perhaps we need to see this idea of research and experimentation. It takes time for it to mature. It's not necessarily about producing something, but that this can be a real creative source given the time. Of course, situations are so different in Europe. For the moment, we still have opportunities to finance our institutions for research. We're not all the same in the United States. And to have a country like that, everyone has the chance to have conditions in Switzerland that help a lot in research and that have extremely generous conditions to support art in general and research. But we adapt. Of course, it depends on the material conditions offered. Here I'm speaking about Europe, which I know is an extremely different case from the United States, where we do luckily still have means of institutional support for artistic research that was still not equal to the Swiss who have extraordinary resources at their disposal for art research and art making. But even in America, perhaps, we'll be able to adapt. Yeah, as we... A clear and dramatic thing, obviously, is that after this experience of COVID, a few months or even next year, many artists will no longer live their art, I think. And maybe it's an opportunity to consider that everyone has to do art, but surely there will be another way. We will have to practice at home. I mean, that's what I'm trying to say in certain shows when I was doing Serge's work in 2007. It's that art has to enter our lives, but on the other hand, there are many people who will no longer be able to live art. So one thing has become extremely clear in these few months of COVID, and which will extend into next year, that many people will not be able to make a living from their art any longer. And so there will have to be other ways, found of practicing art, doing it in one's home. And it's a point that I have made in others of my work. So this idea that art needs to enter our lives. But unfortunately, that means in a sense that some people who make a living from their art will no longer be able to. It's possible, yes. I think it is a good observation that perhaps our life will be no longer separated from the art or art from life if we find ways to do it for artists. But it's a dangerous situation, a catastrophic situation for so many artists around the world. And so it's great that you are out there and trying to still find forms and new forms to remind us of what is important and of what is essential. So Philippe, really, thank you. Thank you so much for taking part in our conversation for taking your time and energy. And tomorrow we will go on at Segal Talks and we're going to talk to Betty Shamir, a playwright, producer of the Arab American Theater community to hear. How does it feel for them and for her as a person and Adelheid Rosen from Amsterdam who is also a socially engaged artist closely connected to the community where she lives in and she's going to be with Melanie Joseph here from the Foundry Theater. So this will be an interesting next week will be the end of the July weekend, perhaps the end of the daily weekly conversation for four months. The Segal Center has now had every day in the week a conversation. So perhaps an August will be a little break and we reconsider and think what we will be doing for the fall. Next week we will have Jacques Concierre as a philosopher and he's telling us what he feels, what he, how he experiences this moment, the great Morgan Jeunesse, the drama talk and sometimes even agent and the great supporter of the arts in New York City of artists early on will be with us. We will hear from Indonesia and Kitty and there will be Richard Schechner Friday who will talk to us about how we see again he will be returning us. He sees the moment we are in and his issue he's figuring for TDR his great theater and trauma review and so thank you again Philippe, thanks for how round for hosting us thanks to the French cultural services Nicole and Laura for connecting us to Philippe and I hope you will be back to New York City with your work and that we will see it and perhaps also with new eyes what your contribution is, what you think about that we need to engage and think seriously about artists and animals on the same level as we as human actors, they're all actors we are in this sphere we live in on this little blue planet and that your concerns about post-humans are not just theatrical tricks or say I just you know artistic a little I mentioned it's something very serious common what you give us about the life and perhaps with the warning that if we do not change if we do not rethink the structures we might want to live in the stages you create or there will be the animals and the plants but not us Amanda, thank you again for translating and for being here for us this was a very important to have you with us to our audiences thank you, thank you for listening it is important that Philippe knows that we do care about the work he does and we also here, how does a great theater a little bit on the outskirts of the center from France what do they do, what do they experiment in what do they think is of importance and we see his aesthetic results which we saw at the Skirball so I hope you will be back and thanks to Hal Round, B.J. Thea and everybody, Travis, Segel Center Andy and Sanyang and I hope Philippe Bondé we will meet and whether it's in Europe or here and Amanda, thank you again and to our audience stay safe wear a mask, stay tuned and really thank you for listening it means a lot to us it is actually all for you that we go through all of this to talk that Philippe joins Amanda translates and we hosted at Hal Round for you the listener and we hope that you will also change part of your thinking and that actions will be taken that help to create new forms that make work what is not working thank you all and see you soon bye bye