 Hello everyone, welcome to a special CUBE Conversations here at the CUBE Studio in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier here for a special Women in Tech and Technovation conversation with Tara Tchaikovsky, founder and CEO of InDescent, also runs Tech Nation and our Simpson Global Ambassador of Tech Nation. Great Women in Tech conversation. You guys have done amazing work. You're both rock stars. Thanks for spending the time. I just had a great chat about your event. You had the 2017 World Pitch Competition for Girls in Entrepreneurship Encoding and everything else. Congratulations. So tell us about Technovation. What are you guys doing? You guys are doing some amazing work. Tara, start us off. Where are you guys at? What's going on? So Technovation is the world's largest technology entrepreneurship program for girls. And girls aged middle school and high school are challenged that you have to find a problem in your community. They learn how to code a mobile app and learn how to start a startup from scratch. All the way to the pitch video business plan. And through that process, they are partnered with a Women in Tech mentor. And they go through a 100-hour learning experience. At the end of it, they have to submit their apps and business plans for judging. And we have thousands of judges who are experts in tech from all over the world. Review those. And then we have a quarter-final, semi-final. And then the big world pitch competition that was held last week here in Silicon Valley. This sounds so progressive and cutting edge. It sounds like what Palo Alto High School will do with Menlo and Sacred Heart and Castileia. But this is not just Silicon Valley. This is, I mean, talk a little bit about the scope of the program. How do people get involved? Share some of the data. Yeah, totally. And so it is all over the world. We run in 100 different countries, primarily brought and expanded through our work that our global ambassador and our has done. And most of it is really trying to bring girls who would never have been exposed to technology entrepreneurship careers. And the way we work is really through partnerships, amazing organizations and visionary leaders who do the hard work of actually supporting these girls, getting these girls interested. So these girls would typically never go into careers in tech because they never see themselves as being interested. And so the hook is that you want to find a problem in your community. You have to go out, talk to people, try to understand what is a big problem that is worth solving. And then we say, oh, by the way, you know, you could solve this problem using technology. And so you get in a whole another group of people that would not normally access these. So is it an application process? Can, is it in the US? So anyone in the US? So my daughter who wants to get some community hours could actually go take it to a level. Totally. So you can just register. We haven't launched the new season yet, but it'll be out live in October. Sign up, find a team of girls. And there is actually a documentary, an award-winning documentary, done about the program. So the same woman who did Inconvenient Truth wanted to profile women in tech, and she did a whole documentary about tech innovation, and it's called Code Girl. And you can get it on any online video platform. Well, congratulations. It's super impressive work, very inspirational. And now you're bringing the global perspective in, and we were talking before we came on camera, that you had a goal. Share with us your five-year goal and an update of where you are and taking this out beyond the United States. Sure. So five years ago, I was a mentor for tech innovation. It was my first time, and it was an amazing experience. And we won in the local competition and the regional competition, and then placed third in the final competition. And after that, I had a conversation with Tara about the amazing experience that I had, and we were chatting, and she said, she'd love to take this globally. And being the type A enthusiast that I am, I said, oh, well, okay, that's fine. I come from Kenya and lived in Canada, so we've got three countries already, but I'm sure we can take it global. Well, in fact, with our work together, I was able to take tech innovation to 18 countries in the first year, 34 countries in the second year, 72 countries in the third year, and this year, we're at over 100 countries. And it hasn't been an easy road. It's, we keep saying this to each other. We just keep trying. Our focus is on getting this program. We don't get caught into anything politics or any otherwise. And we just want to get to as many girls as we can. And as Tara said, partnerships have played an immense role in getting tech innovation all over the world. So initially it was just cold calls. People I knew in Kenya, people I knew in Canada, people I knew in LinkedIn, my little circle. But then my circle got bigger and bigger, and then lots and lots of opportunities presented themselves. And one of them was the tech women program that's run by the State Department. They bring in senior technical women to Silicon Valley for an internship, and then I said to them, oh, and when they go back home, what do they do? Shouldn't they do tech innovation? And so we've done good partnerships with them. We've done a good partnership with the UN Women. We've been profiled in the United Nations high level panel report, and these things keep happening. And the, but it's not just because of the community or the relationships we're building. Our program works. It is credible. Our impact reports show that these girls end up in tech-related fields as they progress. And that's the whole point of our purpose, right? Is to say, look, girls everywhere should be entering technology fields. And what tech innovation does is it's building a pipeline of young girls to enter these careers all over the globe. Well, it's no secret to the folks that know me and watch theCUBE and know the Silicon Valley. I'm a huge proponent for computer science. And it's kind of someone who kind of fell into that in the 80s. It's now become very interesting that the surface area for computer science has increased a lot. And it's not just coding and heads down and squashing bugs and writing code. There's been a whole another evolution of soft skills, agile, cloud. You've seen a full transformation with the potential unlimited computer available. With mobile now 10 years plus into the iPhone, you see new infrastructure developing. So it creates the notion that, okay, you can bring the science of computers to a whole other level. That must be attractive as you guys have that capability to bring that to bear in the programs. Can you guys comment on how you guys see just the role of computer science playing out? This is not a gender thing, it's just more of, as I have a young daughter, I try to say, it's not just writing code. You can certainly whip out a mobile app, but it's really bringing design to it or bringing a personal passion that you might have. So what are some of the patterns you're seeing in the surface area of what's now known as computer science? I think it's super important because as technology has progressed, we've been able to provide this program. If we were still programming with the in front of screens and doing what you see is what you get, kind of thing without, we would not be there. I think the big thing that's happened in the last 10 years is the mobile phone. I mean, if you find a girl anywhere today in the world, chances are she'll have a mobile phone on her and she's going to be loathed for you to take that one thing from her. You could take other things from her, try taking that phone away from her. She will not let you. And so the fact that she's so attached to that mobile phone means that you can then tell her, hey, you don't have to be just a consumer of that thing. You can be a producer of that thing. Anything that you see on there, you can actually design. This is power. This is your thing to good and great and better. And if we can shift that in their minds that this is their link to the world that's wide open, we're seeing that. While the world is consumed, I mean, a lot of women in the world will be consumers of product. Certainly with AI, the conversation over the weekend I was having with folks is the role of women is super important, not just in AI, but as software becomes cognitive, you have to align with half the audience that's out there. So it's been hard for a guy to program something that's going to be more oriented towards a woman. But it brings up the question of application and whether it's self-driving cars or utility from work to play and everything in between. Software and the role of software is going to be critical. And that seems to be pretty clear. Question is, how do you inspire young girls? That's the question that a lot of fellow males that I talk to who are fathers of daughters and or are promoting women in tech and see that vision. What are some of the inspiration areas? How do you really shake the interest and how do you have someone really kind of dig in and enjoy it and taste it and feel it? So there's some research to back like what the formula is that works and to drive change in behavior. And so there's this, one of the biggest sort of names in cognitive psychology is Albert Benderoy. He's a professor at Stanford. But basically it's the same principles that drive say de-addiction from alcohol or weight loss or any kind of new behavior change. So the first is you need to have exposure to someone whom you respect showing that this is something of meaning. And so the key words are someone you respect, right? And so media can play a very big role here for scale, right? Otherwise it's only maybe your teacher or your parent and if they're not exposed to technology they can't really affect your. And so media can play a huge role there. Second is the experience itself, right? Like how do you make it easy to get started? And then it's like learning from video games, right? So you make it very, very easy. Like the first step is just come over here, it'll be fun, there's pizza, come, right? Like your friends are coming. But then the feedback has to be very fast, right? So the first step and that's where a good curriculum matters, right? So that's where also working on a mobile phone is very appealing even though may apps is not. It's relatable. It's relatable but the feedback is instantaneous, right? And so the programming language that the girls use is block based. So even though you don't have any prior programming background you can still build a working app. So that's critical. Then human beings get tired very easily and so the feedback needs to keep changing, right? It has to be unpredictable. The third piece is that of expectations, right? So you have to have very high expectations and so that's why this current discussion around cognitive differences in gender, I feel is missing the point because it's not what you're born with, what are you capable of, right? And so if we looked at our genetics we would never go to space, we would never go to like the deepest parts of the ocean because we're not meant for that, right? But we had really high visions and expectations and so human beings rose to that. And then the last piece is less relevant in developed countries but it's still important. So it's sort of the human energy. We are not a brain dissociated from the body. We are connected, right? And so if you're hungry and tired and sleepy not the right time to sort of make a dramatic change in like your interest. So this is relevant. Like if for us we try to figure out which countries are we gonna work in. So post-conflict war-torn areas are not the best areas to start a new program and you need the right partnership. So you're saying the biological argument of course they're different men and women. But it's the capability that's where people are missing the boat. And the support system, right? Like so have high expectations, provide them with the right support. But the most important thing is your own beliefs in that. Let's get your thoughts on that because I think you guys have a great program in technovation, you mentioned mentors. Key part of the formula most likely. What we hear in the conversations that I've had with women peers has been there's a real call to arms at the executive level now folks my age in the 50s who are made it, who are there succeeding. They really want to give back and they really have recognized the value of having that peer mentorship and then inspiring the young generation whether it's part of the things that we cover like Grace Hopper or Technovation and things that you do or even just mentoring in their own communities. What does that mentorship look like that you guys see that you'd like to see double down on or areas you'd like to see tweaked or perceptions that are need to change? What's your thoughts on mentorship and the role of inspiring young girls? Mentorship from men. Men and women, I mean, from both. Well I see the mentorship of women, that's the first step. I have a whole nother conversation in my opinion that the men need training. Not just like go to class and learn how to talk but how to empathize. Well my big thing has been that when you wanted to encourage women up the ladder in your companies or you want to encourage women to actually get into technical roles that intent should not be placed in the CSR department of your organization because that speaks volumes, right? To say, oh well that's in the social responsibility department or the HR that just says, okay. So you're not really, you don't think we're capable of helping you with your product or service. We're sort of part of this like, no, you know. So I think you want to mainstream it which is what a lot of IND things are trying to do. Inclusion and diversity. Inclusion and diversity. To make it part of the fabric not a department check box. Exactly. That's what you're getting at. Exactly, and you know the the involvement of these departments, right, to include everybody and to make it more diverse is going to be not frictionless. It will be friction until a time where it won't even be necessary. IND departments should have one goal which is to work themselves out of a job. If they can work themselves out of a job then the company would have done what it needs to be done. But I think. Meaning it's self-sufficient, it's self-governing, people are humans, there's respect for individuals. I mean this basically comes down to if you look at it as humans. Exactly. It takes it, every conversation could be tabled as what? There's a person on the other side, it's a human being. Not a woman or a white male or whatever. They're not there yet, but I mean certainly that would be the end game. So in that scenario, that department's out of business, the INR, the Inclusion and Diversity Department has done its job. You don't need one because you don't need one because you know what you're okay. And I think capabilities is really important. In corporations, and this isn't anybody's fault. This is just how it's been done. This has just been the culture of it, right? Who gets invited to which meetings? Who gets invited to which conferences, right? And so we heard the CEO of YouTube, Susan Wojcicki saying, she had to sort of elbow a little bit to say, why am I not allowed at a certain conference? And it's like maybe just wake up to that and say, well why aren't you involving more people at conferences and think tanks? Because I come from an oil and gas background and people used to do a lot of deals on the golf course because oil and gas people play golf a lot and a lot of deals used to happen. Well in the Valley, we don't play golf a lot, but we do do other things, conferences or get together. And if you don't include the people in your team as groups or representationally, well they're not going to be there when you make these decisions. So maybe just be a little bit. Exclusionary is a problem. And Kleina Perkins was taken to task. They had ski trips apparently planned and they didn't, almost the guys and they didn't invite the woman partner to a big scandal. This is where they kind of make that norm, it's a normative thing and they got to change the norms. It's change the norms and if you actually want your company which is made of all kinds of people to move really far ahead, don't be like that. Include everybody because the only goodness about that is you'll go forward. You don't include somebody while you're going to hurt them and then they won't be able to contribute because they just can't and then your product or your service is going to fail. It's really simple. You mentioned the Susan Wojcicki post article in Fortune Magazine where she wrote a guest article and she mentioned her daughter was feeling the narrative which by the way changed from the original Google memo to have something a different meaning but that's what she heard. So the question to you guys that I have on that is with technovations and the work that you're doing you're exposed to a lot of the ecosystem across the world not just in the US from young girls. They see what's coming down from the top or the media so certainly it's the game of telephone as things translate down to the level of the girls. Is there a pattern that you see emerging in their eyes as they look at this nonsense of narratives that are moving around? It's kind of a moving trend in the narrative of gender, women in tech but ultimately they have to internalize it and what patterns do you see and what do you guys do to either nullify that misperception and how do you amplify the real perceptions? Can I take that one? I was in Nairobi at the SafariCom headquarters. I don't know if you know SafariCom but these are the people who came up with M-Pesa and this is the currency that you can do on your mobile phone and Kenya uses M-Pesa like almost everybody in Kenya uses M-Pesa. SafariCom is a big telco and it's a big deal in Kenya and SafariCom has taken tech innovation it has embraced tech innovation in a big way and the people who embraced tech innovation at SafariCom in a big way are both male. So Josephine who was a tech women fellow who came here and then went back and started tech innovation. Her director, Thibaut Royal, he's male and the CEO of SafariCom is Bob Collimer and he's also male. And these men, if I could clone these men in every country with every company you would see this sort of moving away and shifting away that women aren't good engineers or can't be good engineers. They are embracing it in such a way not because they like tech innovation because they know for their business having more women and equal women and a diverse company is making their product and their goods better. Yeah, they're arbitrage in the labor pool why would you ignore talent? Exactly. Whether they're older 50 or they're a woman doesn't matter. I want to add to that, so there's quite a bit of data so the patterns are not anything different from what the message girls get from school and parents. So if you look at the data there are hundred countries that legally discriminate against women. And so what message industry is telling is really firstly it doesn't filter through to the larger population. Silicon Valley is a completely different bubble. But overall the messages girls are given is like this is not for you. And so especially in some of the most sort of populous dense countries in the world. And so we have to fight a lot of these kinds of perceptions from the ground up, right? And the number one sort of gatekeeper is the father. And so a key part of what we've not done to date is to provide sort of education and training to the parents because there's a very moving story that we work in a remote town in South India and a mentor who's very dedicated has been trying to get these girls to participate in technology, he did that and then one girl was actually offered a job but the father kept sort of saying no, not needed, no girl in my family ever needs to work but he fought it and so then the girl actually gets a job. And then a year later the father calls the mentor and said you know what, I'm so grateful that you did it because a day after she got the job I got hit in an accident and I lost my job. But it's these kinds of perceptions that have to be changed one person at a time which is what makes this very hard unless you actually are able to get the media to change sort of the messaging. And I think in the US which is there's some very interesting studies and a question, right? Like if you were to think would there be more women in STEM in poorer developing countries versus richer highly developed countries? Where would you see more women in STEM? The answer is actually the women in like poorer countries like Iran, Malaysia. The reason is because in an individualistic society like in the US where there's a lot of emphasis on materialistic but it's also about are you happy? The conversation has changed to from parents telling children do what makes you happy. And then you're very prone to advertising and advertising works when it's highly targeted and highly gendered. And so in the 60s there was no such thing now there is pink and blue, right? And so now we just made our entire society entirely susceptible to advertising, right? And like girls are passive and compliant and boys are aggressive, right? And so then when you're looking at the board structures there's no, it's very, very hard to fix the problem right there, right? You have to go down deeper because you don't get leaders who are compliant. Maybe secretaries are compliant, right? But you have to fix the message that teachers give girls, that parents give their baby girls when they're born. And so industry is just sort of in the spotlight right now but the issue is not that of industry, I think it's also not the society. Industry, if you look at what Sundar is supporting, you guys, it's interesting that this industry seems to be chipping and certainly Silicon Valley's a little bit different, as you said, but in general it is a cultural parent thing. Any plans there with Technovations to have a parent track? Yes, totally. I mean I think right now 10% of parents actually volunteer to be mentors, kind of like say girls crowd troupe leaders and so we are trying to figure out, okay, what is a way to involve parents and to make them part of the discussion? Well we'll keep the conversations going with Technovations, you guys doing incredible work. I'll just end the segment here by just telling a little about what you're working on right now, what are your goals? What are you passionate about? What are some of the things you'd like to do in the next half of the year, next year? What are some of the things going on Tara? Do you start? I think for us is to go deeper so we are just launching a partnership with MIT to increase the rigor of the curriculum, the rigor of the training and also provide more personalized learning and so this is the power of technology so we don't want to have girls drop out of the program because it's a hard program so really trying to bring the best from industry to support that. Right and so my goal is to get Technovation to all the countries in the world but keeping in mind where we are making sure that it's delivered in a really good way and so girls complete the program, et cetera and the model that I hope to replicate in many other countries is the model that we're trying with in Canada so the new Canadian government is very interested in making sure that all of its citizens are innovative and ready for the technology change that's coming there and they launched a new fund called CAN code and so we have been part of that application process and we hope to have Technovation in almost every city in Canada, across Canada and to really get this going and right now Canada is everybody's favorite country and we hope that if we can do this in Canada then other countries will follow and so that this program will get to as many girls as it can. Well you know how I feel, I feel computer science training in general should be standard curriculums because of all the competition around automation and automation is the fear as jobs will go away. The data we have from our research team at Wikibon shows that the billions being automated away is non-differentiated labor which implies that the working knowledge of that those machines will shift to the value side so I'm on the pro side of the AI and automation personally. There's an education side too. There's the education side and I think this is a fun air. You guys are at the cutting edge of it, both doing great work, I appreciate taking the time and we'll have you back in for an update. Tara and I thanks so much. This is theCUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.