 This is Startup Storefront. Stoad was founded on a vision, a vision for a more beautiful living space filled with modern, sophisticated, and luxurious furniture that stands the test of time. Founded in 2017, Stoad harnessed the power of Instagram to build a loyal following. Through a beautifully curated aesthetic on their social media pages, it becomes easy for a customer to see how Stoad's collection can transform their home. However, in an effort to compete with TikTok, Instagram recently rewrote their entire algorithm. Instead of favoring a meticulously crafted grid like Stoad's, the algorithm now prioritizes Reels. Short form videos have completely flipped the platform on its head, and many companies, like Stoad, are not happy about it. On this episode, we spoke with Alicia Cigillo, the founder of Stoad, and Megan Scofield, the director of creative operations. We discussed the Instagram algorithm changes, what that means for small businesses, and how companies and individuals alike can finally get their engagement back. All right, welcome to the podcast. On today's show, we're here with Stoad, home, Megan and Alicia are in the building. We're talking about the daily social media crisis that we're having. If you could repeat the question you had earlier, that would be amazing. Oh my gosh, thank you so much, and thank you for having us here. I'm so excited to be here with our friends. This is really exciting to see what you guys do, and really all in action. I mean, we were just talking about social media because it really was a big part of how we started and got the word out, and we were really grateful for it being a venue and a channel to really connect us to a lot of the designers that we know today. And it was mostly Instagram, right? Yeah, all Instagram. All Instagram, okay. And it was a friend to us. We eventually used paid ads, and we dabbled it in a couple different ways, but we had a pretty great organic following. We had a lot of receptivity, and we met a lot of really great business partners through it. As time went on, we know about the iOS and privacy rules and the changes that were made within Apple. I didn't really believe the change. I didn't really understand it, truthfully. It's not my background. And it happened pretty much overnight where it got pretty bad. We tried to really work against the grain for a while, and we tried every single which way you can imagine. We talked to specialists. We talked to people years, all different suggestions by saying use hashtags, which, okay, we know that. To grow your following. To really- To engagement, awareness. Just increase engagement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to actually just go back to where we were before. And it was like a steady flow of just new people and exposure to who we are. And I think people really appreciated it. And the iOS was like the beginning, and we were really upset and really swimming against the current for a while, but we were okay. And then I have to say about a week to two weeks ago, it really took a really big nose dive from even there. And so much so that we don't even really recognize it anymore. Our brand is very visual. It's based on imagery. We enjoy seeing our trade partners on Instagram and seeing their visual. I can't see it anymore. I can see it from one of my accounts, but not our business account. So it's very frustrating to use it as a tool and a visual tool, especially within the interior design world. I think it probably works for a particular generation that wants to see a lot of movement and action and loud noises, and it really stimulates your senses when you look at it. But for us, it's not a really great team. Yeah, I think from a product standpoint too, there are certain products and categories that work really well still, but being in furniture, it's definitely not the same thing. They're not gonna be buying lipstick. Yeah, I mean, we're selling sofas and dining chairs. We've been talking about this a lot with different founders, even founders fundraising or founders that are really strapping in for the impending recession. And the whole question we're getting is, where do I put my dollars, right? And so what happens in a recession, more often than not, is people spend less. And so because they're spending less, the customer acquisition costs to get that person to buy with you has gone up. And so then you have two markets. You have the big brands, to your point earlier, that can afford to pay for ads and get in front of all of these people. Then you have the other side of it where TikTok came out and everyone's making these cool, interesting videos. Instagram is losing eyeballs because of TikTok. All of a sudden, Instagram has to compete. They do that by creating reels. And if you're someone like me or someone who had like, I think it was over 10,000 followers, they pay me today. Instagram pays me to create reels. And I get paid on views. And I'm just, I'm what I would call like, a little piece of, you know, a little grain of salt in their massive ocean. And there's a lot of us. And so all these creators are now getting paid to create reels. And when Instagram first made the shift to giving people an ability to create reels and giving them incentive, it was interesting because you could post whatever. You didn't have to get that creative. It just is something that like you could get eyeballs. And then the algorithm changed a little bit where reels were really only meant to give you a new audience. And so your current followers wouldn't necessarily see the reels. And your posts, which is just like your photos that you're posting, those are meant today to be shared with just the people following you. And so the rules changed. I'll give you a story. There's a company called Cakes Body. Cakes Body makes essentially nipple covers for women. The two sisters live on different sides of the country. They make a TikTok that goes viral. They now are selling something like 3000 units a day because of a TikTok video. They are not a big brand. They have no big budget. What do they do? They found that an avenue for growth was to not fight the trend, but to become part of the trend. And so if you're a big brand with big dollars, they're kind of dumb. The money saves them. The money saves them from being creative. If you're a smaller brand with not too much dollars, the reels give you an ability to get in front of a ridiculous amount of customers for free, right? And so let's shift the mindset a little bit. And so that's like, okay, interesting. But how do I play in that game and like still make my product look really good? That's the hard part, right? And so to that, there's all these, I'm sure you've seen some trends on reels. Lexi has a social media company and Lexi's social media company, what she'll do is she'll go and see what's trending. And then she'll make like almost like a storyboard of whatever it might be. Same song that's trending with the product. And so now the product is beautifully shot. And so we'll use these like super high-end cameras to create a reel. So in your case, you could do that. And then you just add this music, you post it. It's not even about hashtags. You barely, if someone's saying hashtags, you're getting like- No, I was being facetious. So when I was saying that, we were like, thanks so much. That was a ridiculous comment. But here's how brands though, brands that's hard. It is. And like how the trends are changing constantly. So unless you have- Like a full-time career- Your finger- Yes. We're in the business of selling beautiful pieces that are- Not making Instagram reels. Right. And that are really exposed to other designers that are looking at it in the same way we're looking at it. And I totally get the trends that I understand how Instagram Facebook is really trying to keep up with what the eyeballs are looking at. And I get that. And what is a generation of people on social media? What does there spend? What are they looking to buy? And what are their interests? And all of that is gonna stimulate what's actually going to be shown in this algorithm, right? Because whatever is most popular is gonna rise to the top. And presumably, and presumably it gets there whether or not it's in a change in their business model where they're favoring certain reels or they're favoring just the pictures are going to your current followers, whatever it may be. It almost feels like a popularity contest for Gen Z to get Gen Z's eyeballs. And it's only for a certain product you can do that. Yes, for nipple covers I think it works. For lipstick it works. So the reason it worked for the nipple cover specifically was because someone that like a breast cancer survivor basically she uses it as a way to make it not look like her breasts are the same size, right? And so it does much more and that's like a very emotional hook. And all of a sudden she's sharing it with that community. The way I think about the hack is this, if a song you like is trending, that song will get you eyeballs whether you're posting a tennis ball or whether you're posting a piece of furniture. For no other reason than that song is trending. And so what ends up happening is if you're on Instagram reels and you're just going through it and Instagram is noticing that, oh, you like this song, they might show you a product that you'd never look up ever in your life just because it's clearly your attention probably is with the song. And so that's how people get discovered. That's where the virality is coming from. So I would argue like that's almost easier. So it's more about being on top of the trends and playing the game. I mean, we have beautiful creative. I think we have a great creative director. She's amazing. And our issue was always like, why are we spending all this time on this creative if nobody's gonna see it? But I guess we're going around it the wrong way because we're not playing the game correctly. And for us we get frustrated. And we try to keep up with the game but truly we can't and it changes so quickly. It's like a full time job. It is. It's a full time job. We don't have the bandwidth on our team. We're pretty small. That's why there's people like Lexi that exists in the world because, I mean, she'll show you, like if I post a reel, she knows what time I should post it. And she'll be like, I bet you this one's gonna get X amount of views. And somehow it hits like that. And so there are people out there with Lexi's teaching me is like, it actually is a science. If you're running a business, you have a lawyer, right? You have an accountant, right? Like these things are true, right? Every business has these things. You need a social media person. And it's not the creative director. And maybe we just haven't had the right ones. I do on the... We've had the let go of some social media people that I would argue are doing things that they're just reading on blogs, but that blog maybe it may have been written like six months ago. And what's happening today, and it's moving too quickly. It's moving way too quickly. And this part is really meant to make you feel better. If you look at big brands, like really like big brands with millions of followers, you'll notice that they're gonna be, they're out of touch. All they're doing is taking their product and changing the different colors, or like let's say their color is yellow, they're just changing the hue and that's it. And they're just posting pictures. And no one cares. Nobody's looking at that anymore, right? And so I think just from like a high level landscape, pictures got people's attention at one time and that's now videos. That's just the media of today. That's all it is. And so then what's nice is the videos with the song that everyone's listening to in the moment tends to get more eyeballs. I think the problem with our audience specifically, and I think Natalia could probably speak to this a bit, but to get someone to buy our furniture, our brand, it's a beautiful image. And we could do the TikTok all day and it's not going to be the right eyeballs. And so for us and becoming like the right channel and to actually seeing it all laid out in a grid and who we are and really identifying with our brand, we are an aesthetic that you need to see it still. It can't be jumping at you and really absorb the point of it. So for us, and it may be somewhat unique to interiors, I'm not sure if there are other, this is just, I know our story on it. And so for us, it's very difficult because we're not going to spend all day on reels because it's so outside the boundaries of who we are. And I think it's outside the boundaries of our target audience. I don't know if you would find any of the big brands, I might be wrong, that you're looking for by seeing the reel really quick. And then being like, I want to go and buy that. I'm actually curious though, like you say like your aesthetic is a beautiful image and that's absolutely true. I mean, go in through your portfolio and it's nothing but beautiful images, but a video is nothing more than 24 beautiful images every second. And so in my mind, there's no difference there. Like if you can get one beautiful image of a shot then you can make 24 in a second and still capture that beautiful aesthetic, that design, that look that you're going for without having to have so many like jumpy cuts or gags or anything like that. And it just tweaks in a way what you're trying to achieve and the medium in which you're trying to do it. I would argue against that. I don't think unless you had a professional videographer doing this all day long that you could, that we could actually deliver this statement. We should do one, we'll do one. Challenge accepted. Yeah, no, I actually like it. Cause I think like, like there's one that comes to mind with you guys already. So you have this, you have a location, at least that I've seen and you guys like work together, right? Like kind of like this across the table. Yes. And then you have some of your chairs. And so like there's one trending one and this is probably not going to be trending any longer after this conversation, but there was one that was trending for a long time and the Cole concept is like, oh, so you call yourself an artist and it could start. So let's real just starts with someone like right here taking a video of you guys just doing what you do. Like maybe even on your laptop and you just look at the camera and you go, yeah, like you call yourself ours. Yeah. And then the next 14 shots or images that your creator director has already taken with the song. And then it just, that's, those are the ones that are going semi-bond. I think there's two different Instagrams. And I think there's the Instagram that Instagram started with, which was all about like fine art photography and showcasing like artists work and it being a still image. I mean, for example, like a painter and they're showing their work on Instagram. That is their live living and breathing portfolio. If they show videos every day of their process, that's great. That's cool. Like we like seeing process, right? We all like seeing that, I think. But then, you know, where are you ever seeing that still image of here is my piece of my body of work complete. What are you just like showing videos around it? I get that there's creative ways to do that, but you still need that, like to be able, I mean, I save things all day long that are just like a still image of a bedroom because I really like the headboard and we could do something custom like that, you know, inspiration for a project. I save that stuff all day long. If it were a video coming at me at a million miles a second with a song, I'm not saving that, you know? So it's like, I don't know, maybe there's a greater, no, maybe there's a greater conversation of like different media for different industries and maybe Pinterest becomes sort of like, you know, the greater, the leader in this world and Instagram moves towards something else. Yes, it's a shame, but also, you know, maybe that's how things are moving. That's our point is for us. Yes, we can play the game and we can create videos and jump up and down and, you know, figure out the best thing to do. But I think we're just disappointed to where Instagram started and where it is now and how it really impacted us as a small brand that was growing and really building momentum on this platform and now we have to shift 180 degrees and figure out what we're doing. And I do think it does, it is indicative that, you know, a lot of these tech social media companies reported last week and they're down. I mean, you look at maybe certain subscribers are up, but where's their revenue coming in from advertisers? Is it working? Is it working for the businesses? Maybe it is, maybe it is not. I don't really know. This is, you know, I'm just questioning, like how is this working for other people? Because I know how it's not working for us. And if I was a blogger or I was in some sort of entertainment industry in some way that I was trying to, on a daily basis, whether it's a podcast or you're an actor or whatever it may be or you're a beauty product or a small, like your product costs, you know, under a hundred bucks to buy, it makes a ton of sense and I get it, like I totally get it and those are volume industries. Like they're, the more eyes, the better. It's not very specific who it should be targeted at. I mean, you look at an Amazon and it's like, how can you get to the top of their list and really fall within their algorithm and it's all volume. I mean, small margins, small prices, but if you're looking at really fine furniture that's beautiful, you know, the buyers are thoughtful. They're going to be thinking about what it's expensive. It's a commitment's investment and I don't think that our buyers, which are very much on the trade and business side and we're lucky to also have a big following of direct to consumer. But when we really talk to our business partners and some of them are very upset because they can't even see anything we're doing. They're like, oh, we didn't know you started that because they no longer see us where we used to get it all the time. I think that, you know, the trends are great and the way that things are moving are great for some brands, but I think for interiors and for architecture and for industries like that, it's almost like a cyclical shift. Like 10 years ago, we were emailing, you know, every single new product released to, you know, like on MailChimp, like blasting it out to people. Then Instagram made it really easy to reach those designers and reach those customers. And now 10 years later, maybe we go back to like those conferences and those meet and greets and those like email touch and just like reaching out to talk to someone about and maybe it's that, or maybe it's like another platform that comes up, you know, to kind of like solve this void. Feel the void. When things are moving. Yeah, which will absolutely happen. But we've been talking a lot about that. What are the other channels that we need to focus on and part of the reason why we're here talking to you guys. We were here in October and you know, we just feel like it's so important to be face to face with people again, especially obviously after COVID when everyone was so isolated. I think people were craving that and just building relationships with our trade partners and our customers and giving them a reason to come back to us. And a personal connection that feels genuine. Those touch points. Yeah. Would you ever consider doing like anything where like you guys do an epic collaboration and then on the collaboration you create interesting content. Yep. Yes. Some of it being reels, but then it's like highlighting too and then you're benefiting from each other's audience. Yes. And that is one of the best. Almost like this podcast, anyone who comes on in some way, you benefit from everyone's audience a little bit. A hundred percent. And I think if there's partnerships in that way, which we are in the process and a ton of negotiations on the collaboration side because it makes a ton of sense for both partners. And I like the idea of like helping each other. I truly do. And it really is collaborative. It's not just, can we have your product for free and we'll post something for you. It's, how can we help you and how can you help us and how can we share our audiences? Because I think there are a lot of similarities. So for us, yes, a hundred percent. That makes a lot of sense. I just think of the photographer. Who's the photographer? That Gray-Mailin. I think of Gray-Mailin. Right. High-end photography. I think each portrait is maybe like three grand. I mean, he documents everything. Yeah, but he has a full-time social media career to do that. So I think it goes back to these big companies and then big people, like influencers that are approaching that level of big company status. You know, they're kind of on par with that ability to create content and not so much a small business. You know, it kind of separates the two different entities, different audiences. It was nice for us, you know, and this is, again, this is just our journey on social media. It was nice that we were able to do it and create consistent content. And it's not like something we didn't keep up with. Like I said, we for sure invested in ads. We invested in organic content. We invested in the stories. We hired social media managers. We hired content directors. We've done it all. I think it's where it is right now is such a departure from our creative ethos that it's very hard for us to like get our brain around how we do that, which is why we're looking for alternatives. You know, in addition to as we were still investing in advertising dollars and understanding like customer acquisition cost, truthfully outside of social media now, it's not any different for us because our customer have a lot more elasticity than, you know, you have a customer that's looking at an expensive beauty product and you're looking to go volume on it. So for us, the catch shouldn't have really been that much different because I do think the same designers, and I'm sure you know, you're probably just as busy as you've always been. And business hasn't really changed notwithstanding the changes in interest rates and the impending recession and where we're looking at employment. So we wanna really be able to focus on what we do best. And this was a great tool to really lean on to really get the word out. And particularly we have a huge following on the West Coast. It's 80% of our business. We're an East Coast company and we were really able to grow our brand awareness because of this. And I thought it was such a special tool that we were able to just follow their simple rules they would put us in front of the right people based on the criteria that we put in there. And you know, if someone wanted to connect with us then they did because they saw us. But now they're not seeing us. So, and to kind of just really pay that game we've invested a lot of money and hours into the social media side. And that's why I was being a bit facetious before where we've tried, you know, all the way down to, did you try a hashtag? We're like, yeah, I think we got that. I think we got that, we're good. We know a little bit more than that. You know, we know the backend side of it. We know the metadata side. Like we do follow the trends but our full-time job is making beautiful furniture and really connecting with our clients and our business partners. And we want that to continue to be that without really, you know, changing who we are as a company. And it's really hard, you know, faced with the requirements to constantly change who we are every week, two months, six months based on the current trend on social media. We need to think Kardashian is posted about this where they want Instagram to become Instagram again. But to that, but so like, here's how I look at that. Yeah, how do you look at that? I look at that as that's because it's equal to playing ground. That's why. They're upset because they had all the attention and what these trends allow is people like me to get seen faster than them. I think this is what's happening. I think this is why the big brands who aren't following this type of thing and they're just paying for ads, they should be upset because it's made it simpler for everyone. When I think about social media, I just wish everyone hired a good social media team. I think the number one thing to keep you relevant is always gonna be a great social media team. It doesn't matter what product, it really doesn't. It doesn't matter if your product's a million dollars, it doesn't matter if you're an artist like James Peter Henry who charges five figures for pieces of art, it really doesn't matter. It's just a function of like, the game has changed and I think like you have to put yourself in a position to be seen. People will still go to your stills no matter what. Wherever they discover you, they're gonna go to your stills. Wherever they discover that you're real, they're gonna go to your website and see like what it is. Because the buying process is that for your particular product. My issue is that it's become a very different experience on the platform itself. Not that you can't try and keep up with it and yes, of course, the more people that see you are, the more brand, we want as many people to have eyeballs on us as possible but we want them to know us for who we are. So we think the right people that see us or who we are are gonna wanna click to our website and they're gonna wanna click. But if we're doing something that's so off the beaten path from who we are, I just don't think our normal buyer is going to be the one clicking. I know we didn't really get into this but this entire company has been bootstrapped and we've grown 100% on our own profits. We have no outside investors. I don't put in more money. We are very cognizant in how we grow, what we do, what we don't do and very thoughtful for it and it's worked. I think for us, maybe we explore the social media but I do think we need to start thinking about other ways that we can get the right people to look at us. Are you thinking about the retail strategy still as a potential avenue to do that? I'm so happy you're asking that. We have thought a lot about it and after a lot of consideration, we launched our first show, market show at High Point in the spring and it was a raving success. We were really excited and it went way better than we could have ever expected and this is one way we can connect with our clients and our trade partners in a way that's really outside and in person and outside of digital world completely. We didn't actually know what to expect and we were kind of just shooting in the dark and we're like, let's try it and we came up with a product line that we are able to offer wholesale pricing on the upholstery side and really connect with a whole nother base of clients that we had never even talked to or connected with in the past. Because of the success that we had in High Point, we think that it's a better path to go to really connect with these partners, build these relationships. One of the reasons we're out here in California and we come so often is not just our trade partners but now our wholesale partners are out here and to really drive traffic to those boutiques and we walk into their showroom. We just did this this morning and we walked into a company called House of Lolo. It's just so beautiful and it literally, Megan always tells me because she has a long like a 20 year history in retail and she's like, you know, you really need to activate all your senses. I'm like, okay, got it, got it. And I'm like, it's true. You walk in and you think about the smell, the way it looks, the texture. So the long-winded answer is we're no longer going to open additional retail stores. We'll always have the Westport location because it's our home office and we're always gonna be out of High Point. Relevant to your podcast and thinking about scaling and how you can do it in efficient and effective way and fiscally thinking about like your projections and how you're gonna move the dollars in the right way. This has been way more advantageous for us. And this is another way for us to test how it's gonna do in the retail environment without us investing in moving across the country and opening spaces out here. And, you know, Alicia's right. I've been in retail. I grew up in retail, basically. It's changing justice quickly as social media. So it's a totally different world and you need to have more than just a storefront. Would you guys consider like pop-ups? I get some of like the best hotels, you know, that probably do have your clientele and probably, I mean, we know of some that have open spaces. We know hospitality is where we want, we need to be there for visibility. That's another place outside of social media where we know our product should be because that's where our client is and our customer base. So those are definitely things that we're constantly thinking about and talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that seems to be high value. If, I mean, the right hotel, that could maybe, you take over like a part of the lounge. You call it stowed, people know. If you go down the hotel route, though, that's another whole conversation. You guys are always a wealth of knowledge. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess a little sneak preview, which I will make public. We are really moving a lot of our business and a lot of our efforts in our new collections and really thinking about the commercial side, which I know you do a lot in. And so I think there's a lot of value add we can be there, you know, and really thinking about how do you make a commercial space look residential with commercial quality and it's not gonna look like you're walking into a stale hotel. That's a hotel and not experience, because we know it's about the experience. It's about the experience and obviously the people going there, it's all about what they can put on their social media reel, right? Yeah, right. It's gotta look good. It's gotta feel good. It's gotta make it shareable. Yeah, and even an office space with people finally going back to work, you know, people are transitioning their office spaces to feel more like you're home or more loungy. So it's definitely a space that we know that we need to get our product into and it's more than just a sofa or a chair. We really try to create. Tracks and furniture. Yeah, a full, I mean, we're not a lifestyle brand. We are a seating company primarily, but we do have a pretty strong vision and certain aesthetic that when someone walks into our showroom, they get it right away. And I think that's part of the reason why we're so successful at High Point because I'm sure you guys have never been there. I imagine. But I have a lot of designer friends and architects that I know. I think I see anything, anything I see on Instagram that I, whatever you guys make, I'm like that, buy that, like we need to buy that. There's not enough rooms in a house. You know what I mean? It's like every time I see your furniture, I'm like, ah, we should just buy like a gazillion dollar house and then we could buy all the furniture. Yes, but it's so true that like a lot of my commercial clients are so sick of Herman Miller and Steelcase. There's no competition there. Yeah, even like poppin'. It's like, oh, that was cool for a minute. And now it's like, okay, what else? Like how can we be different? How can we feel more residential? And you know, I have clients buying like one off, you know, West down, things from West down and things like companies like that, massive companies, because they want it to feel homey. They want people to feel like they're not in some stale, you know, completely like stark, soulless place. And so I think it's like a natural move for you guys and it's a great move for you guys. I think you'll find a lot of success there. Yeah, we're really excited about it. I think it's like, you only have one pie and how are you dividing up? And it's one way we know we can add a lot of value and we always think that way and like try to really divide and conquer and dividing with the right pieces of pie there. So I do think that's like an exciting thing that's up and coming. We're in the works of it. You know, we have an amazing production team and whether it be on the upholstery side or on the bentwood side. And the bentwood side, we know that people love, it's beautiful. It really is. There's nothing like it. Yeah, it's just like the craftsmanship is, it's generational in Indonesia and it's very hard to come by in this country. I'm not saying we didn't try at one point. You probably could find some skill, like, you know, in the Hudson Valley artisan that, you know, it would be very expensive to purchase the same exact product and really making those sculpted pieces in your client's homes feel like accessible and, you know, beautiful at the same time. So we want to do that on the residential side. So today I was at a grand opening for this affordable housing complex that they just opened here in LA and the mayor was there and it was like a ribbon cutting ceremony and there's a developer there and his whole aim is to make everything feel super high-end. Like that's his aim. So it's affordable housing, but I'll show you pictures later. It looked, it's like beautiful. Like I was like, can I move in here? Like this is next level. That's cool, yeah, yeah. And in that, in this discussion, if I was like your publicist, which I'm not a publicist, but I'm just saying, like, if you hired a publicist- You'd be a good one if you were. I know, I know. I would not. I don't have those relationships. But, you know, the idea I could imagine a publicist pitching you guys is something to the extent of like, hey, do you guys have any existing inventory? Would you be able to donate it to this new project? And then in that, it's almost like, like they'll pay you, of course. The developers would pay you, but it's like, it's the story. Yeah, it's always a story. We're giving back. What I love about LA is that everything's very collaborative. And so the whole concept of you having a pop-up in a hotel is like three text messages away on my phone as an example, or like this concept of the affordable housing plus the publicist play, same. And people are so happy to do it. They're just so like, this is a no-brainer, but it elevates the brand in an interesting way, right? And then you get the attention of the developers, who if you're moving into the commercial space are the buyers. And I think that goes back to when you asked your question on social media and about collaboration. That feels really good to us. That feels right. That feels like it makes sense to not just us, but to the community that you're collaborating with and their communities. And there's like a give and take and we do wanna get more involved in those types of ventures, whether or not it be marketing or publicist or really just some sort of business arrangement, whatever it may be. I think it's for sure something we're looking to and maybe PR is the right next move for us. It's just the pieces. So this is another story. So all these comedians that have become famous via YouTube. So like Burt Kreischer is one of these people and then like that whole group, right? So Burt has lately has been telling the story of how it happened for him. And so what happens if you're a comedian normally is you're trying to go and open Mike Nights and maybe if you get on the circuit you're doing like two, three shows a week. You're doing like the weekend things, if you're lucky. Like if someone even gives you an opening to come back and then if you go to another club next door like here at the Laugh Factory then maybe you're doing six a week, but that's it. And so for them it's like they can only get six reps and which for me would be like, I can only hit six tennis balls a week and how am I expecting to get better, right? Also those are the only eyeballs that are seeing your stuff. Yeah, and so there's two good things. The good thing is the feedback loop is instant. You know if you're funny or not that's really important for business today, right? That's retail. You know if it works instantly. So that's really important. The problem with this is it's hard to get better when you're only doing it six times a week. And so Bert talks about how like the machine, the skit, the machine, if you guys have seen it, it's a hilarious thing. It's the one that went viral for him on YouTube. And before that he talks about how he had to spend like 30 to $40,000 like getting the content, hiring the film crews, putting it out there to the point. And so now his advice to younger comedians who are making it on YouTube is that it's like make videos of yourself doing these things, hire the team, invest like 40 grand, and that's gonna pay off faster and more than these like six reps per week. It's an interesting take from like a, you know I would call comedians like the truest form. They're artists, they're really artists. They're not business people, but he understood something. I think it works for comedians. I follow comedians all day long, I would have never seen. Same. There's two things and the team in here, here's me say this all the time. In my world I always say if it's not black and white, which nothing really is, then you have to admit you might be wrong. And if we can admit you might be wrong and if that like that little possibility of being wrong, then I would say try it, because yes, maybe the person who likes that video will never buy your furniture, ever. But because they liked it, someone else's feed will see it. They might share it. Or they might share it. And then maybe their parent or whoever's, they're in law, somebody, we see it. And we're like, oh, that's actually really funny. Let me go check out and see the rest of the furniture. And then I go to their page. I'm like, oh, fucking shit. Look at this. Amazingness. Let's buy it all. I don't disagree with you. And I'm all for like, I admit my mistakes. I think like we're all humans. I know what I don't know. I don't know social media. I will admit it. I will admit that it worked. At one point it doesn't work anymore. I will admit that there are probably ways that can be creative. I worry about the team's bandwidth and how we can do it in a way that effectively says who we are. And that takes a lot of work to not just do it today as a real, but tomorrow it's this. And then the next day it's this. I think you need to publish this. You need to publish this. That's gonna get the Y of your whole business and all of it aligned. That's gonna happen. And then once you have that, it'll set the social media strategy. That's how these pieces flow. Yeah, I think it's our next strategy. Like I said, we try. And I'm not against trying things. Anything else you wanna talk about? No, I mean, I think the biggest thing I wanted to talk about is really like our story, our team and why we've been so successful because of the team. We're a woman-owned, woman-run team. It's real. And we are, talk about antiquated and really old school thinking in terms of industries. And I think you guys know this because you're talking about, business development, construction and furniture development and production is, it's an old boys club. And we're in the midst of it in North Carolina and we're a fish out of water there and we're making our way through. We're really excited because we have some of the smartest women in a room. And I always say, there's the areas that I know and I have conviction on and I feel good. It doesn't mean I don't make mistakes because I'm human and I make them all day long but there's the areas that I know and then I know there's the areas that we need team members that can bring their expertise to the table. And I think Megan can speak to this as well but I really feel good about this world that I'm in of women-run, woman-owned and it's juxtaposed to my previous life. I was on Wall Street. I initially worked in M&A. I was one of the only women sitting in the room and it was a very different mentality, a very different world and a very different way of thinking. Our team is very collaborative and it's having that right team and everyone in place and really giving them the right respect back and forth that feels really good and we feel we're all doing this because we're excited about the brand, we're excited to be a part of it but we work really well together and I think that's what it's all about and it's a real story of how we figured out how to make the company very successful without a penny of outside funding. So I think that's our story and that's how we came to be with the organic growth that I really would love the world to know. She's being super humble because we do have a great team but I mean she started this company because she couldn't find the furniture she wanted for her house so she went out and made it. Like who does that and who turns it into a brand, a successful brand. It's pretty incredible. And like who develops a modular sofa because she couldn't figure out how to ship a sofa across the country. So she's gonna break it apart and put it into pieces and create a modular. I mean, I built it. Yeah, exactly. And I am not a handy human. It's about relationships really and that's why these trade relationships are so important. There's longevity to them. It doesn't end with a purchase. We really get to know we're out here because we're boots on the ground and making sure there's a connection. I always pick up the phone, I always answer an email, no one's too small, no questions too silly to ask and we really make that as our user experience, as our customer experience, this is who we are and this is who we want the world to know we are. We make beautiful furniture. We give you a vibe, all the senses and we're someone you wanna have a relationship with and that's the story behind it. And it's so much more special to then these massive companies that are completely out of touch and the Boys Club. It's just, I hope that the new wave of furniture makers and furniture brands are like you guys and I hope that you're setting the tone for others to come up and to really be collaborative and make beautiful things with beautiful teams. We hope so. I mean, I do think it's a challenge. I'm a cheat woman and walks into a plan and we're going to source whether it be cushions or pillows or frames or whatever any of the raw materials are and there's a lot of thought that goes into any of those plant managers when we're going in and nine times out of 10, it works a lot better when I bring my plant manager and it's a lot of those institutionalized thought patterns that are there. We have really experienced staff in North Carolina that have worked in the industry for generations and there's no disputing, we need them. They're integral to our team. I'm not crafting this sofa on a daily basis. I know enough to be dangerous at this point, but initially it was hard to get in the door and really be seen and fortunate because we do have an experienced team, we're able to like put a toe in really kind of get exposure in there and then once you're in there, they're like, okay, it makes sense and it's a numbers game, you're selling and we're buying from them again and they like it. But to really take you seriously, some women walks in the door that's coming from up North and is asking what are your minimum quantities for your cushions? They're like, get out the back door. So it's been an upward battle of really trying to understand who the right talent is. That is why we are so loyal to everyone that works with us because to be profitable, it's hard. It's a very hard thing to do. I'm excited to see this next chapter of Stoad and what you guys get into next in the commercial space and in these new product offerings that you're talking about. So I can't wait for that. Thanks for coming on the podcast guys, thanks. Thanks so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. Hey you, yeah, you listening. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the episode. If you just can't get enough, check out our subscription on Apple Podcasts. For only $4.99 a month, you can listen to the full length uncut, unedited podcast episodes. We're giving out life changing advice for less than the price of your morning coffee. What a deal. Make sure to follow us on Instagram, subscribe on YouTube and we cannot wait to see you next week for another great episode. Cheers.