 there and welcome. We are so glad you're here. It's another episode of the nonprofit show and thrilled to have with us today, Lynn Wester, principal of donor relations group, and Lynn is here to talk to us about a conversation in regards to donor retention and how gratitude plays a big piece of that. I've been following Lynn now. I want to say for a couple of years, we met through an event that Bloomerang hosted while we were at the AFP icon conference. So really excited to have you, Lynn. And in just a moment, I'll ask you to share a little bit more about yourself. But before we do that, we want to remind all of our viewers and listeners around the globe who we are. We haven't had the pleasure to meet you yet. So Julia Patrick, hello to you. She, of course, is here, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. And we have Julia to thank for this platform because it was her brainchild, her thought, granted, she did think it was going to last two weeks, but really jokes on all of us because we are way past two weeks. Couple of years. Yes. And I'm Jared Ransom, honored to serve alongside as co-host, nonprofit nerd, and CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we are so honored to have the ongoing support from these amazing partners. Shout out of immense gratitude goes to our friends at Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy, national university, 180 management group, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, JMT consulting, nonprofit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. So check out these companies. I like to remind all of you that their mission is actually your mission because they want to help you do more good. And again, if you missed any of our previous episodes, it's okay. We got you covered as you can go ahead and download that app. If you have your phone, which I'm pretty sure we all have it next to us, scan that QR. You can also still find us on streaming broadcast and podcast platforms. And the conversation we are launching into now with Lynn will be uploaded into all of these channels and platforms in just a matter of hours later today. So Lynn, again, I just want to say thank you. I'm sure you get tons of invitations and I'm thrilled that you said yes to this. But for all of our viewers and listeners, again, we have Lynn Wester, principal and founder donor relations group. Welcome to you. So excited to be here with you all. You get good invitations, but sometimes you've got to take advantage of the ones that are done in person. And so I love when we are able to connect. And so it's just an honor to be here. You know, Lynn, you got to get us out of the chute here and tell us where you are coming to us from. I have a good fortune of living about 30 miles from Cuba. I live in Grand Cayman, which is one of the three Cayman Islands. And so I've been overseas and living as an expat now for three years. So really enjoying it. It's sunny. It's 83 today in the middle of the dead end of January. And so I have no complaints about that. Yeah. You know, I love it. I love that this is a path that you have taken and that you navigate and that you steward, because it kind of speaks to the whole issue of how we can look at our donors and how that we can reimagine things from wherever they may be, from wherever we may be. And yet we don't really spend enough time about it. Let's start off and help us to say, to help us understand the ways that we can show gratitude. Because there's not just one way, right? No, there's so many different ways that we can express gratitude to donors. And I think as nonprofits, we spend a lot of time in a lot of important activities supporting our mission, all of which is made possible by donors. And I think it's, you know, it reminds us when I was growing up, my mom gave me the gift of gratitude and taught me some Christmases were more uncomfortable than others as I wrote, you know, thank you notes to Santa or for every gift I received, what I didn't realize that she was preparing me for a wonderful career, whether it's a hand written note, a text message, a video, a phone call, a simple email. We as nonprofit professionals and fundraisers need to spend time in gratitude. We know that it gives us a huge dose of serotonin, so it actually makes you happier. You live longer. And it encourages donors to stay with your organization. And in fact, of all the millions of nonprofits, it can be the differentiator in a donor experience. Yeah, I love this so much. And we shared in the green room chatter, like there's so many commonalities, Lynn, I feel between the three of us here. I grew up in the South Georgia, South Carolina, Emily post book was by my bed, kid, you not like right next to the Bible, right? It was like my second Bible. And so, you know, really this gratitude was engraved in me as well. I have to ask this question. You know, here we are end of January, we are somewhat recovering from the end of year push, right? Like how much is gratitude a key factor of this first quarter of the calendar year? Good question. I love that question because I feel like we spend so much time as nonprofit fundraising professionals talking about end of year, giving Tuesday, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, where is the season of gratitude? And sometimes people are like, well, we do it in near the holidays and we say, thanks. And I say, gratitude is a lifestyle. It's something you choose to participate in. I personally scheduled time on my calendar, Monday, Wednesday and Friday blocked out for gratitude. But I feel that we have an opportunity. You know, what I'm, what I've been talking about for 22 years is nothing new. Gratitude, like you said, my mom made me go to etiquette classes like these are things that you learned and it became part of who you are. We can't lose sight though that gratitude is an all the time behavior and an all the time practice, just like our mission is so providing a service to whoever or providing our mission to those who receive it is we have to live this life of gratitude and, you know, I call it an attitude of gratitude or have it become part of our culture. Everybody talks about big theories like culture of philanthropy. And I'm like, before we have that, can we have an attitude of gratitude first? Like, can we just be grateful for our coworkers, for the people that need support, for the donors, like, for our vendor partners? Like, let's just start there. It sounds like a simple concept, but it's vastly underperformed in our industry. And I think that's why we struggle with retention. Yeah, you know, Lynn, is this a generational thing? I mean, I love that both of you ladies, you know, have a Southern connection and the training of thank you and all of that, if you want to call gracious behavior. But as we navigate through to the next levels of who's coming up behind us, is this something that is, do you see we're having to like, reinvest and reteach almost? I don't think it's generational. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say, Oh, the younger people, they don't exhibit gratitude, they may exhibit gratitude in different ways. Just like, we keep hearing, Oh, giving is down. No, we're just counting different, giving differently. Donors are still generous. People are still grateful. The way we prioritize it in our organizations have changed, because I think we have boards and leadership who are constantly banding about more money, more money, more money, and not let's take care of the money we have, let's talk about retention. So I think it is a necessary mindset shift. But I don't think it's necessarily generational. I actually think it's industry that, you know, I say to someone, it's actually worth a stamp to thank a donor. Yeah. I have to say that out loud. And I have to convince people to put stamps in their budget is shocking for someone like me who carries stamps wherever she goes. Like, I'm all, you know, I've got a couple different country stamps on me at all times, but to have to convince someone that it's okay for donors to expect gratitude and it's okay for us to prioritize it. Right. Well, and the impact of that donor retention skyrockets, I think I've seen, right, when we do have an attitude of gratitude. So as I like to say, Lynn, nerd out with us a little bit more when it comes to the gratitude impacts on the donor. And I love that you said, you know, really different generations might express it differently. And I just have to, I just have to add Julia, like I sent a card to my niece who's in her freshman year of college in Charleston, South Carolina. She called me to say thank you. And I was just like blown away, you know, that she took the time to FaceTime me. So Lynn, talk to us about the impacts of donor retention when we really embrace that culture of gratitude. Absolutely. And I'll give you another example, like yours. I just, it's Girl Scout Cookie season in America. And so everybody's posting their Girl Scouts. And so I don't buy cookies, but I donate the cookies. You can donate cookies for people who need thin mints in their lives. And so I went online and donated. And my friend's child set me a video of her dancing and saying thank you because I was the first person to donate and not just buy cookies. And I was like, see, they're grateful. They just express it differently. Right. So my nerd behavior, I have a master's in fundraising. So I've nerded out and studied this, you know, officially. And I'll get a lot of my information from the fundraising effectiveness project that comes together. Blue is a huge sponsor of that. And it talks about the retention issues in our industry. And gratitude is one of the simple basic building blocks of how to retain donors. Can you imagine though, if we treated donors the way we treated our friends or vice versa. So there was a debate on the like a board, like a chat board. And it was, my boss wants me to envelope and every thank you I send to a donor. And the conversation made me cringe because I'm thinking, can you imagine if during that FaceTime call that you received that she also said, and by the way, I need money for this while she was thanking you for the gift you gave her. Like, can you imagine if you emailed or mailed your grandma and said, thank you so much for my cabbage patch doll for Christmas. But by the way, my birthday is coming. So grandma, time to pay up, you know, I need a Barbie. Yeah, I need a Barbie. I want my rainbow bright. Like, can you imagine? And I, and that's why our donor retention rates are low because we are prioritizing money over retention or short term gains, maybe I should say over long term sustainable relationships because you ladies have both lived through your 20s. As have I, you got rid of the friends that treated you like that in your 20s. Like the girls only called you when they wanted something, the people who, you know, those Adam Grant calls and so I just think that as an organization, can we also be givers of gratitude? Do we have to constantly think about what we can get out of someone and instead think about what we can give? We recently had the privilege. We've been helping Hawaii Community Foundation deal with the funds that they've been raising for Maui Strong. And we sent a compilation video on ThankView in January thanking donors for their support and getting us through the holidays. And a woman, I will tell you, I burst into tears because a woman replied back to the video and said, I was having a really bad day. I was stuck at work, I wasn't feeling positive and I received this video for a very small donation that I made and it completely changed the way I felt about my day. Not I'm going to give more money, not I was able to, we were able to feel of gratitude, help somebody feel better. Yeah, yeah. How amazing. Lynn, you said something before we were live that pretty much knocked my socks off and I'm going to paraphrase it but you're going to know what I'm saying and if you can take it further, you said that you really want to pay attention more to the donor retention than the actual dollars raised. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that out loud. I have been saying that for years now and every time I do, someone gives me the Scooby-Doo, we are obsessed with how much money we raise. There's lists about people who raise the most money blah, blah, blah. But if you run a business, as many of us do a for-profit business and nonprofits are a business as well, it doesn't matter how many customers you close or how much money you make in a year if your customer retention is down. So I learned that from Disney. Disney is my first ever job, my first ever training, I have my doctorate from them and yep, you heard me doctorate from the Disney Institute and Disney will empowers their cast members to the tune of $2,500 to help save somebody's vacation because they know the loyalty of someone having a good experience, the retention of their customers, their guests is the most important thing at Disney, not how much someone spends each day in the park, which is about $1,200 for a family of four, which is a lot of money. So my thing is, so that's wonderful, you raised $10 million last year at your nonprofit, great. If you only retain 7% of your donors, I believe you were a failure. That is my opinion. I believe you were a failure because if I had to do that as a business owner, I would never, my customer retention rate is in the 90s and should be, right? Why is our first time donor retention rate in the 20s? Can you imagine if your clients drop stuff like you have a business? Yeah, I mean, if you owned a dry cleaner or you owned a restaurant or a floral shop and you only had less than 30% of those customers coming back, major, major red flag on so many levels. On so many levels. On so many levels. And yet, I think for some reason, we don't have that conversation in the nonprofit sector almost until it's too late. I think we don't even look at these numbers as we should. When we talk about all this, it's easy to say, okay, yeah, we need to look at this and we need to refocus or navigate. But how do we turn the ship around, right? What are some key things that we can do to acknowledging, okay, maybe there's a different path, what we should be doing? I think the first step is acknowledging that we may have a problem. It's kind of like any, you know, bad habit. You have to realize, okay, this isn't healthy for us. So, you know, 50% retention isn't healthy overall. It's not good for us. We should and it's not because donors aren't giving. I really want, so number one, we realize the problem. Number two, we accept accountability. Nonprofits keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results from different populations. So that's not going to work. I also think it requires us to do some education of ourselves. Hey, what is my problem? What are those barriers of our volunteers and board members and leadership to say, hey, maybe here are the factors that lead to retention. Here are the things we're doing, what's not matching or maybe doing that extra gala isn't going to benefit our retention because an event attendee and a donor are two separate things or we need software like Blumerang that shows you your retention right there in the software or, hey, let's start fracking these things or I have clients, one of the things we do is we survey donors who lapse and ask them, why aren't you coming here anymore? Why don't you donate? Like, you know, like it's kind of like there are a few key reasons, but we need to take a good look in the mirror, but we also need to acknowledge that we're not perfect. We have great missions. We do great work. We work hard. We're like, we're the industry once you meet the people in this industry, fantastic. But we do have a flaw and I think we need to talk about it openly and not be ashamed to say, yeah, so I don't understand why I can only retain 10% of my first time donors. Yeah, and I love that. I know that Blumerang has that on their dashboard and I know from talking to different folks, it's always like one of the things that shocks them. Yeah, they're like, what? You know, and it's going down, right? Like, it's going down the wrong way. What is what is it now? I'm curious because it is going down. I think first time donor retention is now at 21, 22%. And but here's the thing, loyalty is not going anywhere. Look at the brands that people are loyal to. Like right now, I guess there's an obsession in America with Stanley Cups. I knew Stanley for a whole different reason. My dad tools, you know, like the lunch pail and the thermos and but people are brand loyal. Like I am deeply loyal to Apple. You know what I mean? Like their products never let me down. I have a great relationship. They provide great customer service, you know, but they also fix things when things go wrong. So it's not it's not that human beings are completely different than they were 50 years ago. We are not changing. Nonprofits are not changing. And there are nonprofits with high retention. And you know what, they focus on gratitude. They focus on recurring giving. They focus on things that matter to donors, not things that matter to boards or to, you know, they're not using themselves as their own test audience. So there are successful retention programs. Erica Wadsdor is an expert in monthly giving and talks about the power of it all the time. I'm a monthly giver. That's a 90% retention rate, but I still go on nonprofit websites and have the option to donate monthly. So like we have this weird dichotomy between what we say we want and our actions. Right. Right. Well, okay. So let's talk about actions because one of the things that it seems so little and it is because when we think of, and actually I'm going to see if I can pull this out of my desk right now as it shakes, right? Like we talk about the stamp. Like stamp should be in our budget, right? So how do we budget for the cost of gratitude starting with whatever this is? That's a good looking stamp, my friend. Yeah. It's a good looking stamp, by the way. Postage. Like, you know, it's so interesting to me because I love conferences. I love being out and talking to people, but I swear if I hear one more time, excuse me. So if I have to send the tax receipt and then I have to mail them a separate thank you, that's two stamps. And I'm at a small nonprofit and I'm like, if you cannot prioritize spending a dollar on your donors, on the donors who have given graciously at their sacrificial level to you, then maybe this isn't the world for you. And so what I do is rather than saying you need to add money for gratitude. I ask my clients, my advisees, people that want to listen about changing this culture is take 10% of the money you spend in acquisition. You spend a lot of money in acquisition. People buy lists. They rent lists. They acquisition, meaning events, acquisition, meaning mailings and emailings, acquisition, meaning staff with a clipboard. I don't care. Take your entire acquisition budget and take 10% of it. And I want you to move that 10% into a gratitude and impact bucket. Gratitude and impact because we have to do two things in order to get the gift again. We have to give gratitude and then we have to tell them what we did with their money, which is the other side of the coin that we're missing a lot. That 10% has a seven-fold return because it's seven times cheaper to keep the donor you have than to acquire a new one. And all of us who run businesses, if you've ever seen Shark Tank, they say, how much is it to acquire a customer? And the poor person says, oh gosh, it's $38 to acquire a customer that's going to spend 15. And they say, oh, you got to get your customer acquisition cost down. What is your retention? And they say, oh, well, we have an 85% retention rate. And they're like, oh, that's good. So the budget depends and the time depends. So gratitude isn't expensive, by the way. So when's the last time you started your board meeting? By having your board members call first-time donors, write notes. Donors give to multiple nonprofits. There are very few donors who give to only one nonprofit. And very commonly, they will give to four or five nonprofits. And the one that writes or calls or N. Penelope Burke and Cygnus donor research, a call within 48 hours, it's 400% more likely that they're going to give a massive statistic. So what are you doing that you can't give gratitude? What are you doing that you can't get a tax receipt out there? What are you buying purchasing, having staff that you can't afford a stamp? Now, what I hear is, well, we put most of the money towards our mission. Fantastic. I want us to help people's environment, whatever your mission is. But if we can't thank for the gift, then our mission is not going to be sustainable. It's not going to be there. Nor is that donor going to increase their gift, right? And so it's like, investing in this gratitude for their investment in the mission will continue to build on these blocks for positive impact. I know we go back to this simple concept. So I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I had emailed six people in higher ed and asked them to review a software for me, spend an hour with someone and take a look at his software and give their opinions as experts and they did that as a favor to me. Afterward, I sent them a sugar wish. It's one of my favorite little things to do. I love sending a sugar wish. It all in cost me $125. Every single one of them said, I didn't do this to get a sugar because donors don't do this to get thank yous. But I'm so surprised and delighted. And if you need any more of my time, I'm absolutely willing to give it. Just tell me what you need. I did it because that's a way you show gratitude when I can't hand write a thank you note right that day. But also like donors don't give to get thank yous. However, it's not embarrassing to expect gratitude when you're being generous. Right. Thank you. And it doesn't have to be expensive. I think, you know, that's why it always flummoxes me when people say so. You're saying like, because I always say seven thank yous before you ask for more money. Seven thank yous, whether it's videos, text messages, postcards, phone calls. I don't care how. But the biggest hinderer, hinderer, is that a word? I don't know. The biggest hindrance. Here comes my English. The biggest hindrance to donor retention is that we over ask and ask too frequently before we tell them thank you and tell them what their money did. And I'm like, yes, because you put an envelope in your thank you note. You don't think that's too soon? I love that. I love that. And they say, well, people do. They give me a check in that envelope. Yes, there are people that so believe in your mission, that 22% that you could do anything and you wouldn't scare them away. They're still going to give to you. But the 80% of people are like, my God, you sent me an envelope and I just gave you $25. Like, do you think I made it? I call it pinata fundraising. So you just whack the pinata until the candy comes out. But after the candy comes out of pinata, it's done. And there's nothing left of it. And yet you can't drag around and play with a dead pinata. No, no, you can't. I want to pull up and I had no idea I would pull up all these props today. I love a prop. And Lynn, you probably got it too. It was a thank you card. I received a November punk post, right? Like super cute. I use punk post personally. So this was sent to me in November. It is still on my desk the end of January because the gratitude, right? Like, it makes me feel good. So I'm constantly seeing this. Kate at Bloomerang, right? Like that's amazing. Kate's amazing. And it's just that extra step of gratitude. And these tangible tools, they stay with you, right? Like when I was in an office, not my home office, like I had a bulletin board filled with thank you notes like back to Emily Post, right? But like, really how we keep these collections. I feel like we could talk forever and I want to, but we have to wrap up and there's just, you know, so little time left. But Lynn, thank you. I would love as we have your contact information here to help us briefly about your podcast and what you're up to because you're doing some fun stuff. Yeah, Clay Buck and I, we record fundraising is funny. It should come out in season two. We're very excited. What we do is it's 20 minutes of entertainment where we laugh at our profession, right? Like, we have budget money to feed the board, you know, dinner at every board meeting, but we don't have stamps to send thank yous. Fundraising is funny. Or I had a donor who ate potpourri at an event and that's a whole episode, you know, all the unbelievable things that happen when you work with money and donors and the weird world. So fundraising is funny. I want to point out that we have resources for you at donorrelations.com. If you are starting out, if you are experienced, we have 15,000 samples from other nonprofits, thank you notes, videos, whatever you need. We're here to provide as a resource and we also have professional development for you. So come over, send us a line, you know, we're here and it's really my privilege to serve in this work. I have a team of 16 who helps, you know, build this around the world and just we're so honored to like carry on that flame that my mom started in me around gratitude and I will continue to argue, I will continue to say that I don't think a thank you is too big of an ask for our nonprofits to produce when donors are sacrificing resources that they could use for any other things. They could buy milkshakes all day, but they choose and as a donor I make choices in my life and I make sacrificial choices and I've never had a donor say to me well I expect to get a thank you at this time this time but what they do say is when I get thanked it always makes me feel good. It reminds me that I'm a good person and that I've done a good thing and I think to your point it doesn't have to be extravagant but those it's about, Maya Angelou said it's about the way people make you feel. Well Lynn Wester you've made us feel great today principal and founder of donor relations group check out donor relations.com and you can learn all about their work and the amazing resources that they have. Again I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group and again our gratitude goes out to our amazing sponsors. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. They allow us to have these amazing conversations with people all over the world like Lynn Wester. This has been great and we are so appreciative of having you come on today and share your amazing wisdom with us. Lynn thank you. My pleasure, thank you for having me and thanks everybody for making it possible. It's been amazing. You know every episode we end with this mantra and we have now almost four years and it's so interesting Jared because it means something to me every day a little differently and today I'm thinking about gratitude as Lynn has been so generous with her time and our message goes like this, to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow everyone. Thank you ladies.