 Hi everyone and welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020 where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madhan Bihel. Anrita is, as you know, a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Welcome Anrita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. Anrita, as I said to you last time, this seems to be the season of tricky questions and I have another one for you today. So I hope you're ready and raring to go. So today I want to talk about sexless marriages. You know, after we did that last podcast on where the husband went off to see a sex worker during lockdown, my inbox has been flooded with messages from both men and women, I might add, who've said that what happens if one partner in the marriage does not want to have sex. And I think that this is actually a very valid concern because when two people come together in a marriage, I think 99% of the people are coming into a contract where there will be some kind of physical intimacy. And if one of the partners does not want it at all, I think it does create a real problem. And quite honestly, with the messages that have come in, and I will read these out to you maybe one at a time just to keep them clear because there have been so many. I think that it can become really tricky. It's not as simple as saying it's a sexless marriage, one person doesn't want it. There are so many layers to these relationships. Yeah, absolutely. And it is a common presentation. It's a common issue that couples come in with. Another way that this is presented is that somebody has no libido or zero libido and I have a very high libido. And that libido could be somebody wanting it three times a day to somebody wanting it three times a year. So you can see that there's a mismatch and then people come in will say, oh, my partner doesn't want to have sex and I really like it. So what should we do? So in some ways we're talking about a mismatch libido. And then added to that that genuinely, there are some people who identify as asexual, which means they're not interested in sex. And so if you are with a partner who is not interested, then and you are what do you do, right? So there are two sides to the thing I'm saying. One I'm saying is a very common issue that comes with a lot of couples saying, the level of the number of times I want to have sex is very different from the number of times my partner wants to have sex. And then the other side is that what if generally somebody is not interested in sex, what do you do? Yeah. And like I said, there are so many layers to this, you know, so often when you present something on social media or Instagram or just as a line, it doesn't really cover the complexity of relationship. It's so kind of like basic, yeah, my partner doesn't want sex. Where should I go? Should I go out of the relationship? But you know, people will be jumping in with all sorts of advice saying, oh, leave her, leave him, do this, do that. Or in some cases, you know, I'm sorry to say this, but the gender really does make a difference. So if the husband is saying my wife doesn't want to have sex, the reaction of people is, well, the man needs it elsewhere. If the wife is saying my husband doesn't want to have sex, she's being told that she's ridiculous to even ask for it. And we've seen that happen many, many times. So I think that I really would like to go over some of the questions I've picked a couple of questions randomly, just to give everyone an idea of the layering in this particular problem. So the first one came from a man who says he's about 50 years old. He's been married for approximately 21 years. And he says that his wife has just never been interested in sex. He says that over the years she's always tried to find an excuse not to have sex. And if he's tried to bring it about either it causes a fight, or she'll find some other way of getting out of it. So he figures that she's just not interested. He does go on to say that he did wonder whether it was because he wasn't able to satisfy her. But then he's also said in the next line, that's not the case, because he feels that he has been able to satisfy her. And I think I'd like you to deal with that particular point, especially now, the rest of the email is important, because he says that he doesn't want to disrupt the marriage, because one, he has a daughter, and he doesn't want to disrupt his daughter's life. And secondly, he says that my wife is not financially independent, so he doesn't want to leave her in the lurch either. So he is thinking about his family, and he also says that he hasn't as yet stepped out of the marriage, but if he does, and he said he's very specifically pointed out that we have answered this question about a woman feeling upset because the man, her husband, has gone to a sex worker, but he says, how about you look at it from both sides of the picture? And what should he do in this case? So if he decides to step out because he would like to have sex, would that be considered cheating? Okay. So say if this was the presentation of a couple that came in, what we would do is that we would first look at it from multiple angles. I've said multiple times that sex is about the body, the emotions, the relationship, the physical, the sexual. So we would first look at it and say, is there an issue? How come the wife is saying no? Is there a medical problem happening? Is there like reduction in hormones changing? Or the lubrication is not working? Is it vaginism? What's going? Is there an issue that we need to fix? And that is why maybe she's refusing. And what we've seen very often, and actually more in men and less in women, but equally present, that they have such a difficulty sharing that they have a sexual problem, that they have an inability to have sex because there is a problem happening. And because, and they rather avoid sex, you know, any gestures of anything, they will avoid it completely, because they're so fearful, it's going to lead to sex and it might lead to pain or it might lead to embarrassment or whatever the issue is, that they never disclose that actually there's a problem. It's not the willingness, it's actually they are unable to in some ways. So we would deal with that. If it, if all is working fine, all is well, we would then look at, is there a trauma? You know, is something happened before? Is sex scary? Is something that is frightening them about it? Or upsets them? Or like, is there an emotional reason that they don't want to engage with sex? And we would then work on that and say, that's fine too. It might be that it's a relational issue, you know, is, is there, are you angry with your partner? Are you upset with your partner? Like, you know, what is really going on is, are you afraid of your partner? There could be so many reasons like, but we always say that people withhold and, and because there's an emotional language to sex. And finally, what we would look at is that sometimes it's as small or little as a logistical problem, you know, because you switch it like, I had this one couple and she would say, my husband decides to watch TV and then come at like two in the morning into the bedroom and I'm fast asleep. I'm so tired that I can't wake up for sex. And it's a small suggestion like, have sex in the morning, have sex on the weekend, like have sex on the weekend morning and just a logistical thing changes the whole dynamic. So what I would first suggest to this man is look at the situation in some ways, like see are they blocks anyway? Are they blocks that we need to, you know, overcome or change? And then, you know, genuinely, if we come to the point where say the wife says, everything's okay, I'm all okay, I genuinely am not interested in sex. And the husband says, I am, then that's a different story, we can address that too. But I think more often than not, we find the solution amongst what I was saying. So I think that, you know, his biggest thing, I think when he wrote to us, he was actually talking about this one particular aspect that if, you know, that the reaction was so much to this man stepping out of the marriage and going to a sex worker, that if he is not getting it at home, and he would like to have sex, which is a very natural instinct, it's a very natural desire. If he steps out, is it cheating? And before you answer it, I just want to give you the same question, but from a woman that came in, because I just think like I said, that gender unfortunately does make a difference. So, you know, like you were saying, sometimes, you know, it's just about sort of saying, talking it through and saying, is it this problem or exploring whether it's that problem, trying to fix it? Unfortunately, as we both know, when one person has gone off it, they've created such a block in their mind that sometimes they're not open to it. And maybe in his case, he could try and convince his wife maybe to, you know, explore this from reading this woman's question. I really don't think that she has that option. So she says that she's been married 11 years. They have a small little girl as well. And she says that sex with her husband is terrible. It hardly ever happens. He mostly just never wants it. If ever he does agree to it, it's very quick, it's painful, and it is totally unpleasurable. So it's not just bad. It's actually really, really horrid. And she says that, you know, she's got tired of trying to make the effort. And now she's starting to fantasize about other people. She's starting to look at other people. And again, she says that she hasn't done anything yet. She doesn't want to disrupt the marriage. She has a little child. She's not financially independent. She doesn't want to disrupt the marriage, hasn't done anything yet. But if she steps out, if she decides to fulfill this desire, she is going to be judged, especially she will be told that she's living with this man, she's living off his money and look, she's going off and having sex with somebody else. What is our advice to these people? Is it cheating? Is it bad? I don't know. Like I said, it's such a tricky question. Yeah. So like you said at the beginning, neither the gentleman nor this woman should feel embarrassed that they have sexual needs. So we're not absolutely saying that the man shouldn't or this woman shouldn't. It's a quite a normal desire. And it is something that there is, if you haven't spoken about it before, it's an assumption we make in marriage. It's not a necessary assumption, but it's an assumption we make in marriage. So let's assume that their partners, respective partners are not interested in sex and they have tried everything and everything is fine. They want to stay in the marriage, but sex is something that their partners disagree with, right? So if we are at that point, if we are at that juncture where one partner doesn't want to have sex at all and the other partner wants to have sex, it's really important for the two people to come and have a conversation. Because like you said, there was a contract. There was a contract that said monogamy is most important, but there was also a contract that in all possibility we would have sex in the marriage and that contract is not being fulfilled either. So at that point, I think what is most important is an open conversation to say, this is an important need for me. And more likely than not, and you'll be really surprised that partners, if it is a big issue for them or a big problem, there are actually some partners who will say, I'm fine. I'm happy in this marriage. I don't want to have sex. It's completely fine for my partner to go and have sex somewhere else. Some will say, I'm happy to listen about it. The others will say, you can have whatever sex you want to have. Just don't come and tell me about it or my children shouldn't know or my family shouldn't know or whatever. What you do outside is up to you. Others might actually come to a solution where they might say, okay, look, I don't like these aspects of sex. I don't like the penetrative part of the sex, but I'm willing to give you oral sex. Or some might come up with a solution saying, I can't have it that often, but I can suggest that we have it once a month or something. All I'm trying to say is that people come up with genuine solutions when they want a marriage to work. If you don't want a marriage to work, you'll find 1000 excuses to get out of it. But if you genuinely want a partnership to work, people compromise. And some partners come halfway where they would say, no, I rather forego sex than forego this relationship. And they will say, I'll come to you and happily live in a sexless marriage. The others might say, look, I'll come to you. I rather stay in this marriage and you get sex somewhere else. So I'll come your way or a medium brown, right? But what we're saying is that they have renegotiated the contract and have renegotiated what is acceptable and what's not acceptable. And that is what is important. So if you've not had that conversation, if you've not renegotiated the contract, then yes, it is cheating if you go outside. But if it is genuinely an issue and your partner does feel like they're unable to have sex for whatever reason, they will empathize either way, like you will empathize with their problem, and they will empathize with your problem. So talk about it and I'm sure a solution will be found. I was just thinking when you were saying that that this is something in every other aspect of our lives we would outsource. So if you don't like doing the cooking, you will get something to do it for you. If you don't like driving, you will get a driver. If you don't like sex, I haven't come across very many people who have said, okay, I don't like that sex, my partner does, I'm going to outsource it. I don't know, would that be a really good civilized way of doing things? Yes, and that's what seems scary about it, right? But so often you will hear people say when they say, oh, I love going out at night, but my partner just doesn't know whatever. And after a point you say, why don't you go out with friends? I'll stay at home and we come and say if issues start coming up, friends always say, well, you should have gone out with him or her if it was going to be a problem. But that's what I'm saying, that you find a compromise. And when there are genuine problems where people just don't like it or not interested or for whatever reason don't want to engage with it, it's very different when I think, say, there's a past trauma. I was working with somebody who was an abuse victim. They're so afraid that they're unable to. And so they might feel like we were already victims and this is another problem that has come on us because we are victims of abuse. And I think that's very different from a place of empowerment where somebody says, I really don't want to have sex. And if they really genuinely don't want to have sex or not interested in having sex, they might actually be happy that they don't need to deal with it. Go somewhere else, have sex, female male comes back, they don't need to deal with it. They're happy, you're happy, everybody's happy. So you'll be surprised how many adjustments people are willing to make. Wow. Okay, so I must admit that that does sound like a very easy solution, but I just don't know how many people would be prepared to do that. But coming to the third email that I picked out, because as I said, you know, this whole idea of sexless marriages, starting with first the man saying that my wife actually doesn't like it, I just don't think that she likes it. I think that I have given her enough arousal, given her enough stimulation, but she doesn't like it. Then the woman saying this, I was actually really fascinated because one of the emails said that it came from a woman and she said that her husband, in the beginning, she would constantly say to him, you're not arousing me enough. I'm not aroused enough. I need more. And he would say to her, you're just talking nonsense. This is all just a load of nonsense. You don't need so much arousal. It's a bodily function. I don't know what you're going on about. And she says finally after saying it over and over again, for many years, she's finally just gone off it. And now he's saying to her, oh, but you don't like sex. And she's saying, well, it's because you put me off it all together. So I do think that sometimes things start small. We don't recognize it either because of our egos or just because we don't think that we have the time because you don't want to spend the time listening to somebody else's problem when you don't have the same issue. And then when it gets to this point where there's a complete block, there's a wall, then of course, it feels like there's a point of no return. Yeah. And I think that's the thing about therapy that we were talking about is the digging, is to figure out where what has happened. Because if somebody, we can look at any of the examples, if somebody had listened to each other at a certain point, it would have changed the course of things. But when you don't, so the wife is saying, I would like more foreplay or I need more arousal or it's not working. The husband's thinking, going so well, I don't know what she's talking about. I'm having a great time. She seems to having a great time. But slowly and steadily, the other person, if they're not being fulfilled, things, oh, God, it's going to be such a chore. It's going to be such a duty and it's not going to be pleasurable. Let me get done with it. And it doesn't take long from let me get done with it, to I'm not interested in it, to I don't want to really go anywhere near it. It's a very easy journey to take. And so what we would do in therapy is dig to say when did it change, like when did it change, that your sex life seemed fine before you have children together. Obviously there was sex. So what changed and what happened? And that's when, if he had heard her and had realized that if he could just change the arousal at that point, it wouldn't have come to this point where she is completely like you're saying put up a ball saying, so not interested in this. So we have to do that digging. And even if you don't want to come to a therapist, we've spoken about this before. Even if you don't want to go to a therapist to do this digging, you have to do this between yourself to understand or communicate. And they can be very easy few turn offs. And so the communication becomes really important because say the husband or the wife loves kissing the husband's neck, licking the husband's neck and the husband absolutely hates that, you know, that is going to lead to losing your arousal, you know, you're just going to hate it. And then that goes flat and it's over. But just the communication saying, actually, can you not lick my neck? I really don't like it would maintain the arousal or the erection. So it is, you know, it can be small things like that. And it just requires some communication and open communication, share it then before it becomes a big problem. I know somebody who used to say that her partner I love kissing her in the ear. And she hated it. And it was just one of those things where he was doing it out of such enthusiasm. And he actually believed that he was doing something good. And she so hated it that she would be trying to avoid, you know, like trying to turn her head every which way. But it's really weird how when it comes to sex, like, literally, people will not communicate about it, they will put up with something bad. They let it get to a point where it becomes completely shitty. And, you know, you get drawn apart, you don't have anything to do with it. But is it because we just don't have any language to talk about sex or we're so frightened about it? I think it's a combination of both. We don't know how to express it. But I think what you exactly said is the biggest fear is that the partner likes it, you know, this idea that he, you know, he really likes licking my ear or kissing me inside my ear. And how can I take that pleasure away from him? Right? But what we have never spoken about it, is the partner doing it for you? You know, have you asked that question? Is the partner doing it for himself or herself? Is he doing it for you? Like, who is it being done for? And who is receiving the pleasure about? And so, like, and is it really such a big pleasure that it is worth you losing your erection or arousal? You know, actually, I don't even know if it's necessarily about pleasure, because you see, most people will say most youngsters anyway, are getting their sex education from pornography. So they're watching porn to see what's being done. And they are then going out and practicing it on their partner in exactly the way they see it, which we've said over and over again, is actually, it's got nothing to do with the real pleasure. There's nothing real about it. And so there's this sort of, it's almost like you're doing it to the other person because you've seen the film, you've seen porn, and you know that this means pleasure or this leads to serious amount of excitement and wild sex. And in actual fact, it's not leading to anything except a great deal of get the hell out of here. I don't want to know you. Which is what you said about the two people who wrote, right? Like saying the question is not if we are good at sex or not, because we've tried everything. Well, you might have tried everything, but have you asked the other person what they like? And have you asked that what you're trying is actually being effective? You know, so you can try everything, but if it's not effective, it's actually useless. So that communication is the key of changing sexless into having sex and pleasure. And it's so simple. And when we make it so serious, bring in the fun where you can ask questions and somebody else can laugh it off and say, oh, actually, I hate it, rather than it becoming like, oh, my God, he like doing this, she like doing this. I had to actually say to them like, I don't like it, and they felt bad, and then they didn't have sex for two days or whatever, whatever, melodrama that could happen in it. Sex is supposed to be fun, you know, there are 20,000 things that you can do. If you can't kiss the year, you can kiss the neck, like you can't lick the year, you can lick the neck, like figure it out, have fun, you know, talk about it, and you will actually know what your partner likes and, you know, engage with that and sex will become better, in fact. So yeah, I think, you know, talking about exactly this point about the fact sex should be joyous, it should be fun, it should be something full of pleasure, not a chore, not something that makes you angsty and worked up and, oh, my God, I have to do this now. It really shouldn't, but something that you said just a little while ago, which I think is really good advice and deserves to be reiterated, which is that if your partner does not like having sex, maybe it's a particular thing in sex that they don't like. Sex or sexuality or pleasure or intimacy so vast, there's so many things you can do. Most women, most, not all, but most women don't really enjoy the penetration. When they say that they don't enjoy sex, most of them have said that it's the penetration part of it that they don't enjoy. They love the cuddles, they love the kissing, they love all sorts of other things. And I think it's quite important to remember that that is also sex, the kissing, the cuddling, the oral sex, everything. There is just such a huge variety. And it's worth saying, okay, let's explore something else. If you don't like penetration, let's do something else. And maybe we can come to penetration once a month or once in a blue moon, but at other times, at least, let's not dismiss it altogether. And that's what I was going to say that when we talk about a compromise between a partnership between a couple, that's exactly it. They come up with saying, I like this aspect, I'm fine with oral, I'm fine with thing, the penetration hurts. Can we do it when we have more time for foreplay? Otherwise, can we just have oral sex? Or can we do everything? But can you not penetrate? And can you use your hand to masturbate or whatever? So they come up with creative solutions. And like you were saying that they might say, we can have penetration once a month. And they can say, I need a long time for foreplay. I'll make sure that I use lube or I do other things that I feel aroused. I'm going to make that effort so that that day I have prepped myself for it. But if it is something difficult for somebody, that preparation can't happen every day if the expectation is every day. And that's what I mean about the compromise and the meeting. And really having the empathy rather than the judgment, the problem that happens is the blame game happens, like in the emails you were saying, or he or she are not having sex. There is something wrong with them. There is a problem with them. When you want to give too much sex, there's a problem with you. When you don't want to have sex, there's a problem with you. But the blaming shuts people more. Once we start empathizing and once we are willing to understand the problem, when we understand the problem and somebody is willing to say that, I feel scared or it hurts or it brings up a lot of bad memories for me. Whatever the reason that they don't want to have sex for or I'm very tired, I feel completely exhausted. I don't have energy. If you don't come from a place of blame, but a place of understanding, solutions will be way easier to come around. I think that one of the least practiced things, at least amongst a lot of the people in India who write to us is lubrication. People don't understand that one little thing can actually change the way that you have sex. If you use lube in vast quantities, lots of it, really well to your own advantage, it can not only enhance your pleasure, but it can make the desire for sex a longer lasting thing over many more years than it otherwise would be. And I think we've said it before, but it's worth repeating every single time lubrication, lubrication, lubrication. And you know, honestly, so many of these sexless marriages, yes, there are people who, there are spouses, there are husbands, there are wives who absolutely don't want it, but I have to say, Anritha, that from what I've seen when we've kind of gone backwards into people's histories, most women, if they had more lube at the start, they would not be where they are right now. Yeah, so I think fear is a big problem, you know, the, and that causes pain and that causes problem with arousal and wetness and everything. But what I would also say to people out there is physical solutions are not going to change how emotionally somebody feels towards sex. So if somebody is disinterested in sex or doesn't like sex, you can obviously physically get them to have sex, you can use lube, you can use other things, you can, you know, give them by Agra to have an erection and they will have an erection and everything. But that building block of the problem becoming bigger is bigger is still happening, you know, when, when they are emotionally or mentally disinterested in sex, that problem is going to remain. So don't look for fast solutions of, okay, I'll just lie down and he can have sex with me and we can get on with it. It is going to create relationship problems. It's going to create sexual problems. It's not going to change the dynamic. Try getting down to what is at the bottom of the whole thing. That is what is going to change the game for everyone. And I think something else that we've said often is that pleasure is something that we should own for ourselves. Our own pleasure channels are in our head. Most of us have blocked off those pleasure channels. And if we actually want to feel pleasure or joy at an intimate relationship, we have to start to own our own pleasure. And I think that's something that a lot of people don't do. We've kind of blocked it off, it's stopped it in our own brain. And then we're very happy to put that blame on somebody else and say, they haven't brought me to this point. Exactly. I think, sorry, I go on. No, no, I was just going to say that, you know, we're back to this idea of, you know, judgment and blame versus understanding. Yeah. And I just think that, you know, when it comes to pleasure, I say this all the time, that the Kamasutra says that pleasure is, it's like a shock, it's like an energy. And it's, you know, it energizes so much else in your body, it's not just about sex. If it's an energy, it energizes your entire body, it goes towards so much benefit. And there are a huge number of studies now being done, you know, I found that more and more that emails that came in were about women who are older, who definitely don't want any sex now. When I say older, I mean, sort of, you know, going on towards 40, 50, 60. And they're not interested in sex anymore. There are a lot of studies being done saying that sexual activity is extremely beneficial for you as you get older. So it's worth just changing your mind for yourself. Remember, you're doing it equally for yourself, not just for your partner. You know, the thing is that if you think about it, women are told that sex is bad, it's not okay, you shouldn't have sexual needs. Then you basically get them married and then overnight, is it suddenly like, oh, you need to be, that's the main duty of a wife is to provide and be available for sex and for procreation and you need to be a mother and how can you not be a mother and all of those things. So from it's a dirty bad thing to you must have it. It's a big seesaw jumping all the thing that that owning your own pleasure and sexuality hasn't taken place at all. It has gone from I shouldn't do it or I must do it for somebody else because they need it or they, I have to have a child or, you know, it's all for somebody else. It's not for yourself. Then when the opportunity comes where it says the body kind of the arousal stops or, you know, life takes over and everything, why wouldn't you give it up? Because you're doing it for somebody else. You're not doing it for yourself. So it's actually very logical for you to now say, oh, I can finally get rid of this one thing that I need to do for somebody else. You know, I do 50 other things like go clean, take care of children, do this, that and everything. At least this one thing is off my plate. Now I've reached that age. So that change of it being because you get pleasure from it is so important for things to work. Yeah, I don't know. I certainly hope that people listening in will take this on board. And just before we sign off, one last time, I know that we kind of sort of answered this question, but you think that if you're in a sexless marriage and you do step out because you don't have any other choice, is that cheating? Is that bad? Is it acceptable? So I think the way we have spoken when we spoke about that woman also in some ways, the betrayal of the trust of what you've decided with the partner, the monogamy or like being committed in a relationship, you have decided that before. If you're going to change it, then have the conversation. If you don't have the conversation, if you don't disclose, then yes, that is cheating because that was the contract that you had made. But say your needs are not being met for whatever reason. Have the conversation. You will be surprised that what your partner is doing and it shouldn't come as a threat. I think what I feel scared about when I say this is, is that people will then use it as a thing saying, have sex or figure out a solution. Otherwise I'm going and here I've changed the contract because I'm now disclosed. That's not coming to a compromise is not throwing what you want to do on the other person. Coming to a compromise is having space for their needs and having space for your needs and both needs to be met. That is a compromise. So figure out a compromise where both needs are understood and met. One of the solutions might be going outside the marriage to have sex. That's one of the solution, not the only solution. There's lots more that can be done before it. But if your partner is okay with it and they say yes, then yes, that's fine and that's not cheating. But say you just come and say, oh, you're not giving me sex. I can't have sex. I really need sex. So if you can't give it to me, I'm going somewhere else. That actually leads to a lot of pressure and pain and actually more problems in the relationship. And I would say that is still cheating. You can't just come and throw your weight and then consider it. So different in different cases is what I would say. I think that's a really well put answer. Thank you, Anvita. And I certainly hope that the people listening will find this useful. And particularly those of you who have written in to us to say that you are in this problem in this situation. I hope that you found some answers or some way of going forward from this. If you found it useful, do like, comment, subscribe, as always. I am on info.seema.anand at gmail.com. Always happy to receive your emails, your questions, your messages. And if you wish to get in touch with Anvita for therapy or for a consultation session, she is on anvita.madanbehail at gmail.com. And the spellings are down below in the text. And in the meantime, please do stay safe. You know, the virus hasn't gone away, but things are opening up. So look after yourself, stay healthy, and we will see you here next week. See you soon.