 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching the breakfast on plus DB Africa It's time for our next hot topic and this one says Nigerian needs $35 billion a yearly for infrastructure expenditure and that is being said by the federal government I guess today is Shagun Shuppitan. He's a chairman accountability candle and transparency network. Good morning. Mr. Shagun Thank you for joining us Good morning Thanks for having me always a pleasure having you so the presidency on Tuesday Had you know come out to talk about needing 35 billion Naira? Sorry 35 billion dollars annually for the next 16 years. That's from now till 2040 for the next 16 years to be able to just cater for our Infrastructure expenditure now my question is you know, isn't that a lot of money or is it that is that? You know such a small amount especially for the fact that we need a lot of infrastructure in Nigeria now When we talk about infrastructure, we talk about roads. We talk about hospitals We talk about so many things that needs to be done What do you think about this figure and this is according to the renewed hope agenda? So what do you think about this statement from the president? Well, if you if you take the data that is available out there As a reference point and depending on whose data you're looking at you get different Different opinions You you you find that the the plan from the president is a good plan I think we should start from there The plan is a good plan. It's important to have a plan. It's important to have a long-term plan And this is a long-term plan. This is a plan that will outlive his Administration, you know, even if he does eight years in office The plan will still be running and I think first I must applaud that I think that that's one of the things that has been missing You know, you know in the way we have gone about the governor's question in Nigeria over the years People tend to look at things from how it will affect them You know as politicians they pursue projects that they can take credit for Usually especially around elections So so I think this is a departure from that If you ask me, I think it's probably the first time That I'm seeing something as deliberate as this as clear as clearly articulated as this from any president that we've had Under President Buhari we had a situation where he continued the infrastructure projects of his predecessors And we applauded that, you know at that time that this was that was unprecedented It was the first time also that we're seeing a situation where a president will come on board and say I will not execute any new projects I just want to finish the projects that are already on ground. That was a good one And we can see the benefits of that now. People are enjoying the legacy by the expressway It's a wonderful wonderful wonderful Addition to our infrastructure stock as a country people are enjoying the legacy by the real Project, you know again has made a huge difference in the lives of people in that in that sector of the in that area of the country And there are a number of other projects like that the second Niger bridge, you know, and all of that He didn't start this project. He continued. He met them on ground and continue them So credit to Buhari on that and now credit to presidents, you know for putting laying down the plan that will outlive him Having said that I think it's also important to note that perhaps the president is to be more ambitious So according to data out there That's why I started from initially before I decided to just backtrack and just give the credit where it's due first According to data our infrastructure deficit as a country Ranges depending on who you're listening to ranges from between three trillion dollars To three point three trillion dollars in other words in order for us to catch up and fix The infrastructure deficit that we have we need to spend three trillion dollars now a 35 billion per year plan Would amounts to three hundred and fifty billion in ten years 700 billion in in 20 years 1.4 trillion in 40 years And 3.8 trillion in 80 years So putting it in context you you see that this is a very good plan You've got to start from somewhere But it needs to be said that it's not enough and we can so in order to To meet that infrastructure deficit that we're talking about within a reasonably short time frame Let's say 20 years for example say oh in 20 years want to close the infrastructure gap in this country. You need to raise three trillion dollars divided by 20 So so you're talking of about a hundred and fifty billion Dollars per year So so the 35 billion era per year begins to look really small, you know when you look at the guess that however We again a balance if you flip the coin and people who would Upload this would say what are you talking about the entire budget of the country? It's about 30 30 billion dollars roughly depending on the exchange rate at the time that you're looking at it So the 27 27 trillion 28 trillion budget that we have this year for example is If you use let me just do the calculation program and if you use them an exchange rate The official exchange rate has sucked today or in the budget. I think is I think the budget was still referencing 700 700 Naira to the dollar so even if I use even if I use 700 now to the dollar and you say 28 trillion, you know That that gives you $40 billion You know and I'm being very generous if you decide to use you know the prevailing exchange rates That that cuts down to half. You're talking of 20 billion dollars as our budget. So This is saying that the budget the national budget aside not withstanding We will spend 35 billion dollars every year outside of What we're budgeting to spend, you know in the country as a whole so this this is this is It's a good thing coming from that perspective Especially when you realize that the funding plan the plan for funding this Would revolve around a mixed a mixed basket of funding sources government revenues private sector investments private sector loans developmental loans Funds funds from from the various markets funds from Insurance companies pension fund organizations, you know, I like that I like the fact that it's looking at a wide variety of funding sources Which means that we're not just looking at government revenue, which is exactly what we've been saying, you know all this one so I Think it's a it's a plan that needs to be applauded, but we need to do more it's important for us to understand that The deficit we're talking about is heavy. So we need to we need to be more ambitious I would love for the president, you know, he he has always prided himself for being somebody who is audacious Who is you know, who is both, you know the way he very very? Imperiously said subsidy was gone He needs to apply. Yeah, he needs to apply that type of bravado to this types of project This is where that type of courage is needed. Actually, you know, he needs to be bold He needs to be brave. He needs to be audacious and actually Go for the numbers that will make a fundamental difference now again Let's put a bit of context into this for those that may not understand what what do we mean by an infrastructure? The infrastructure expenditure the infrastructure deficit. What what infrastructure are we talking about? Mainly we'll be talking about roads Yeah, we're talking about rail we'll be talking about aviation, you know, the airport Infrastructure and we'll be talking about power In my opinion if you fix the power problem and you fix the rail problem, you will place Nigeria on the pedestal to achieve Exponential growth within a very short period of time So if we apply these funds for example to fix in the power problem Over a four-year period and you know, the power problem can be solved in a four-year period Please it's important for us to note this even if you want to lay a completely fresh transmission Infrastructure, you don't need 30 years to do this Maybe you talk about 10 years like let's jump the existing a national grid and just build a new grid You don't need 20 years. You don't need 10 years You know with the adequate funding you can build a new grid if you want to but of course You don't need to build a new grid technology has gotten to a point where you can do many grids For example, so you can have regional grids. You can have off grid solutions You know, you have captive off grid solutions that are integrated into one network if you like There's so many potential solutions to the power problem. So we can fix the power problem You know to a reasonable degree in in four years We can actually achieve 10 maybe even 20,000 megawatts before the end of this first four years of this administration We can do it 20,000 megawatts. It's possible You know, but we need the wheel we need focus we need We need to be very deliberate. We need the we need planning, you know, and all of that to achieve this So I think that's the general framework to look at the this this new site and from it's a good plan But there's a need to do far more to achieve The infrastructure stock we need to unlock the potential of Nigeria to take Nigeria from this But perennial giants that has perennial potential that is perennially unfulfilled We need to get to the point where the potential of Nigeria is unlocked and fulfilled We can do it in four years and I dare say Regardless of the way the manner of the emergence of this president Regardless of the opposition that he currently still has Regardless of the large chunk of Nigerians that are still unhappy that he is president If he does this and he succeeds at it in four years, I can guarantee you Even his most virulent posers will vote for him for a second time And this is the point that politicians must get to understand that look if you do good for a majority of the people You do good for yourself. You you you lay down your legacy Whether you want to talk about pepunary Um Mundane benefits that you gain in office or you want to talk about legacy and you know Issues that matter, you know through through time you do good for yourself. So so it's a very good plan Um, I wish they would be more ambitious with it, but it's a good start Should be commented. Yeah. All right. So when you were speaking, I mean, I was just listening to you And you touched on power now we still do not have 24 hours by Nigeria and It reminds me of the fact that Nigeria isn't a spring chicken. I mean Nigeria is about 64 years On October 1st. So what have been the main challenges for our infrastructure development in Nigeria? Because you would not expect a country that is already 64 to still be struggling with Infrastructure year in year out and then you see all of this precedence come in with their administration and it just it seems as though continuity is is a challenge now. I know that President Bola. Sorry Muhammad Abu Hari had come in. Yes, and he started the press the presidential Infrastructure Development Fund now with President Bola are met in a bowl. He's continuing it But has changed the name to renewed hope Infrastructure Development Fund. So we're seeing some form of continuity But what have been the main challenges over the years that is just now we're realizing that we need to Start to look at this and start to develop our our infrastructure in Nigeria That's it. It's a deep question if you ask me because We're basically going to try to tackle the entire what is wrong with Nigeria question actually So so I think the first thing is to understand To cut ourselves on slack as a country and understand that We are the biggest black nation in the world. We are the we have the largest population in Africa. I Think the sixth largest in the world By population were big by landmass were big. I think we're the fourth largest or fifth largest Country in Africa by landmass with our 928,000 square kilometers of land And on top of that you've got the religious complexities You've got the topographic complexities. You've got the ethnic complexities Nigeria is a complex country. Nigeria is Probably comparable Only to the United States of America when you take all of these things, you know and try to compare like for like There are a number of countries maybe in Asia that also Have this similar Potpourri of issues that Nigeria faces so What this means is that in order for you to achieve inclusive Sustainable development over a long period of time There has to be it can't happen by accident. It's impossible for it to happen by accident It's going to happen because somebody sat down and plant You're gonna have to sit down and have a national developmental plan that will be painstakingly executed Across several administrations because we have term limits. We're not running a dictatorship. We're not running a monarchy So this has been the real pain of our development. The real reason that we have been unable to move forward as a country is That as a result of the complexities that we that is our reality It's impossible for development to happen accidentally. It's impossible so that lack of purpose Deliberate design in our approach to the governor's question is the answer to the question you've asked is the reason where we are So so what you have is we've got I've deliberately stayed away from the corruption issue Of course at the base of this if you want to say why don't we then have that? I mean purposefulness in planning. Yeah, you you will come to the corruption question but before we even talk about that it's it's the fact that Every administration that comes on board just like I said earlier every administration with the exception of president Mama Dwari, you know credit to him and that I think would go in this when when his story is told when the story of Nigeria is told On the long, you know 20 40 years from today one of the good things that would be said about him Will be the fact that he continued the legacy of his predecessor. It's a very important issue So every politician comes on board and on does What his predecessor did? everyone with the exception of worry and And with that you can never achieve development. Yeah, I mean just imagine that The United Arab Emirates and Dubai with Dubai, you know in particular has achieved The kind of development that they've achieved Right in our life today. If you have 40 year old Nigerian You were already born And Dubai was a desert If you're 40 years old and here we are today Everybody not just Nigerians everybody from all over the world troops to that country and to the last city You know to just get panwanda To say wow, you know That's the kind of wonders that that they've achieved in that country And we're not talking of just infrastructure and tourism even in the quality of life of their citizens, you know So the reason they were able to do that was that there was a plan and the plan was Implemented to the letter over a 30 year period. Yeah, we are today. So for Nigeria We need to have a plan We need to have a plan that is sustainable We need to have a plan that will be implemented by successive governments regardless of political affiliation Whether you're a PCP DP labor party SDP NNPP, whatever party you come from once you assume the office of president once you assume the office of governor Once you assume local government chairmanship There should be a template that you meet on ground that you just pick up and continue from where your predecessor left off Sure, you can have little modifications based on your own personal philosophy based on your own temperaments based on your own Human peculiarities, but there has to be a plan that we are implementing as a country Until we arrive at a point where we have a national development plan that is encoded in law that must be followed by successive administrations We will not solve our problem. We will not solve our Education institution problems will not solve our health care institution problems will not solve our infrastructure road infrastructure Transportation infrastructure problems. We will simply grasp in bits and pieces At these issues and solve them for time. So for example, okay, so I just want to ask one last question because we need to go Right. Okay. I just want you to answer this in one minute. So now I mean, this is great We need 35 billion dollars a year for the next 16 years But how is this going to you know, drive the growth of our economy? So when it comes to like employment opportunities the value chain the the the value of the Nigerian lives pretty much How is this going to impact us as Nigerians? if if the government spends 35 billion dollars on infrastructure alone in 2025 I'm living out in 2024 because I assume it to take we're ready in March. Yes nine months left in 2024 so let's assume that the nine months will be used to to to implement this and get it up and running and it's now sitting and Flowing fully by 2025. So Nigeria implements this plan for 2025 and we spent 35 billion dollars in 2025 on infrastructure Our economy will go significantly How will it impact it? Just the spend alone just the fact that you're going to throw out about 30 trillion era You know, in addition to your 20 trillion 25 trillion 30 trillion budget So we're talking of a 30 a 60 trillion potentially a 60 trillion budget for 2020 2025 obviously Nigeria will go Employment will happen because it is people that are going to implement this infrastructure project isn't it? And that will be the trick pull down effect of the monies as the money is flowing through those projects You have contractors, you know that are you know going to be engaged and all of that So it will definitely impact employment It will definitely impact the quality of life because as those infrastructure project them come on stream You know them the quality of life of people will also begin to improve. Well, hopefully that's what is going to be done And we'll just look at how it happens and hopefully corruption doesn't you know rare It's all the head and all Nigerians would just be happy saying we have a better economy We have good I'm sorry. It will but Yes, all right, thank you so much It's an amazing having a conversation with you. Thank you Okay, we'll be speaking. Have a good day you too. All right. We're speaking with Shegme Shepiton He's a chairman accountability counter and transparency network And we've just been talking about the fact that the federal government has said they need 35 billion dollars yearly for infrastructure expenditure and this is to happen strong and now till 2040 So we're looking at 16 years. Anyways, that's the size of the shore We have to wrap it up now. It's been amazing having a breakfast with you today. I'll see you again tomorrow