 Hi everyone. Welcome to Enformed and Engaged. Today I'm filling in for LaShara Bunting, but it's going to be a pretty easy job because LaShara has assembled an amazing panel for today's conversation. Today we're going to talk about what are some of the challenges and what are some of the opportunities for the next generation of journalists, and how might they just best prepare for important jobs reporting in this incredibly, incredibly important moment in time. So the journalism team is committed to informed and engaged communities, and through this show, Enformed and Engaged, we have been hosting conversations with journalists, with journalism educators and leaders across the field. So today there is no time that's more important for tools and platforms to give journalists new ways to both engage with their communities and also to hold powerful to account. So today I'm going to be introducing our wonderful panelists. I'm going to start with Ari Ellis Hernandez, a reporter from The Washington Post. And next, I'm thrilled to announce to welcome Eli Chen, who is a senior podcast editor at National Geographic, and Francine Huff, who is a night chair at FAMU. Welcome, everybody. So one of the best ways for young people to find their own path is to hear the different journeys that journalists took to get to where they are today. So let's start with you, Ari Ellis. Tell us about your journey, where was your first job, and tell us what helped you get to where you are now reporting for The Washington Post. Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So my journey started when I was 16. An English teacher put an application in front of me for a Jcamp, a journalism camp run by the Asian-American journalist. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew I loved to write. And that camp in one summer introduced me to Carl Bernstein, Helen Thomas, and Carol Simpson in one class, in one camp for five days in DC. So I was hooked since then, went to the University of Maryland, where I got some scholarships to be able to pursue journalism in the journalism school. And I had some professors who really pushed me to do internships. And those are all big parts of my journey. But I would say what I tell young people most is I talk about the journalism affinity organizations that helped me get there. If it wasn't for these diversity pipeline programs, the student projects at NEHJ, the working press, the SPJ, other programs, the New York Times Student Journalism Institute, I'm not sure I would have made it as far as I did, or maybe as quickly as I did, because I met mentors at every step, and they pushed me into the next opportunity. The New York Times Institute introduced me to my first internship, which was at the Wilmington Star News in North Carolina, which is a great town if you've ever been there. And it was one opportunity after the other, and that led to my first job at a higher education magazine. And then back to the Orlando Sentinel, where I had interned myself for a year, and it's all she wrote from there. So you found that the internship, so landing at the Orlando Sentinel, it was helpful because you had an internship there, and people knew you, and they knew your outstanding work. And among the outstanding reporting and award-winning reporting assignments you took on was the killing of Trayvon Martin. Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. And again, I got to the Orlando Sentinel through the Kaiser Family Foundation. Again, another sort of interesting, interesting, interesting. And what's just also so wonderful is how you give back with your involvement in Jcamp and your just deep involvement with the student projects at at NAHJ. So Eli, not everybody has to be a print reporter. Not everybody has to choose text as their story form. Tell us about your journey and what brought you to your path to National Geographic as a senior podcast editor. Yeah, so when I was in high school, similar to R.L.S. here, I also wanted to, you know, I wanted to become a writer. I didn't know what sort of writer I wanted to be, but that was around the time that Al Gore's climate change documentary was sort of around. And I thought it would be really interesting to write about climate change. And basically, you know, I would tell people that I would, that I wanted to work for National Geographic someday. And incidentally, I am now here, I've been working there now for a month. But, yeah, I basically, you know, similar, similarly, I also had mentors of color who also helped me, you know, get to where I am right now. I started by studying environmental studies in my undergrad. I was also a creative writing major. And then I went to the City University in New York Graduate School of Journalism. And it's now, yeah, it's now called the Craig Newmark School. That happened after I graduated. But I focused on science and health reporting. I got a really great internship at Science Friday. And that was, that was actually really what brought me into, you know, sort of science and radio reporting. I think learning from Ira Flado was really good for me, because at the time, I was really interested in environmental justice reporting, but it really, you know, brought in my interest to be more interested in just science generally. And it was so, you know, it was so interesting to talk to like astrophysicists and medical technologists, like just fascinating, brilliant people, like week after week and hearing their stories. So after that, I worked for two public radio stations in Delaware Public Media, which is a small station in Dover, Delaware, and then most recently at St. Louis Public Radio. So, so obviously your internship helped you get into the public radio network. So how did you, but how did you land in Dover? How did you choose Dover? I mean, Eli, if there's, you know, they say that we've all worked, or most of us have worked in small towns and small communities, and Dover is certainly a small community. But so tell us, how did you land in Dover? And, and what was the value of working in a small community just out of Brideswood School? Yeah. So I should say that we covered news all throughout the state of Delaware. But yeah, I was in basically working in half of a Tupleye trailer for about a year and a half. And, you know, the, I guess the words like, I was at any duties as assigned or whatever, that really applied to this job, because sometimes I was being sent out to reset the router that was responsible for getting us on air. There are a lot of, there are a lot of weather issues that impacted the station. And there is like a weekend where I were in the northeaster, one of the strongest northeasters to hit the east coast happened. And I was brought, I was assigned to do newscast that weekend. So I basically slept for like two nights there. So that was really interesting. But yeah, how did I get there? So my job before that was working at a science festival. And it was a good experience. I loved producing live events. But it wasn't, you know, straight journalism. I wanted the experience of going out and doing field reporting. And, you know, even though the position didn't necessarily pay well, I was still really early in my career. I wanted on air experience. And I had a friend working down there. So they were looking for a science reporter who would cover things like sea level rise. And that was, it was really interesting, you know, talking to people who were literally like living on this eroding coast. And that was, that was a really good experience to have early on. Excellent. Thank you, Eli. And also just discovering that they're that radio and now podcasting is just such a powerful form of storytelling. And Francine, you worked at newspapers all over the country, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal. And you are giving back in a big way as a night chair at FAMU, where you are in conversations with students every day about how they should get their career started. So tell us a little bit about your start. And how is it different for your students at FAMU starting out today? Yeah, Jennifer. So unlike my fellow panelists today, I did not come to journalism in high school. I started out pre-med in college and I eventually I had always loved writing and English and the language. And so I transferred into the Medeal Journalism School. I was at Northwestern University. So once I went all in, I went all in. I went after internships. I had a couple of different internships while I was still in school. I even took an internship coming out of school at the Pittsburgh Press. So that first summer out of college, that's where I worked. And by the end of that summer, I was offered a full-time entry-level reporter job at a Gannett paper in the Pittsburgh area. So that's really where I cut my teeth, you know, as a professional in the business. And I just, you know, really made myself indispensable. I had a beat that I was required to cover, but I would volunteer for other assignments. I took on a business beat when the previous person left and they, you know, they weren't, they couldn't afford to hire a business reporter. And by that point, my love of finance and business news and economics just really kicked in. So that I kind of, you know, just nurtured that on my own, even though I wasn't working officially as a business reporter. From Pittsburgh, I went to the Boston Globe and made a transition at that point into being a copy editor. And I had a real interest at that point. I knew that I wanted to move up into management and more, you know, trying to shape coverage at the publication I worked for. So I stayed at the Boston Globe a couple of years, and then I went to the Wall Street Journal as a, again, as a copy editor and worked my way up through, you know, through the organization to where I eventually became the spot news bureau chief, where I was the spot news editor during 9-11 actually, which was really, you know, just a crazy experience. You know, just a lot of reorganizing the newsroom and helping us get back on track. We, you know, our building literally was across the street from the trade center. So it was just a really chaotic time, but also just a time where the staff really came together and tried to, you know, get things back on track and continue our coverage, which we did. I stayed at the Wall Street Journal for over a decade, and then I left and started my own publishing company, which I ran for, you know, probably about eight years until I decided that I really wanted to go into academia. So I've been here at Florida A&M University for about six years now, and it's just really, I would say it's different for my students now, because obviously they have a lot more access to tools online that I did not have starting out, and I think that is a huge, huge difference. That people who didn't come up without that don't really understand that, you know, when you were a reporter without those tools, you really had to dig for information, dig for sources. There was a lot more legwork. So I think that what I would say to students today, the industry is obviously constantly changing. It's not what it was when I started out, but there's still a real opportunities for journalists, and it's really important to raise up this next generation of young journalists. We have so many important issues that are impacting our society right now. There's no one in our society who is not impacted by these different issues that we have going on, and so we need young people who are interested in journalism and want to tell these stories and want to help to, you know, help the people in our communities to really understand what's happening and be engaged with what's happening. So thank you, Francine, and I just wanted to let everyone know that our panelists will be answering questions from the audience shortly, so please submit your questions through the Q&A function on Zoom. You know, just to build, Francine, on what you were saying about the importance of internships and getting those first jobs. I just hear from so many young people that it's just a challenge, you know, finding work. So I just wanted to quickly have each of our panelists jump in and, you know, what is your best tip for just like getting that first job, getting the kind of experience that each of you described was crucial to bringing you to your position today, and so many internships expect people to work for nothing, and I wasn't able to do that when I was in college, and so how do we make sure, too, that there's equity for young people? Yeah, so, you know, it is challenging right now, but there's smaller companies operating, there still are media organizations operating. I saw some of my students come out in the spring, very concerned, and some of them still got jobs over the summer, but I think what I'm seeing, the students who are coming out with the jobs, even in this tough environment, those are the students who are working for their student media organizations. They're freelancing, they're getting internships, and so even if you don't get your dream job, there still are things that you can do to keep your skills improving and to get your name out there. Again, social media, the internet, there are so many opportunities for content creation now, and so even if you're having that tough time getting the official job or that official internship, you can still go out, you can report stories, you can create video, you can create a podcast, and you can do those things and have that entrepreneurial spirit, which I think is going to be key going forward for people in our industry, and so there are ways that you can still keep your skills growing and getting fresh and get your name out there in a good way. And spoken from an entrepreneur who for eight years, it was super savvy, yes, yes, yes, yes, publishing company. So what would you say a release about what would your best advice be for a, I mean, you were able to learn and take advantage of, oh my goodness, of so many different paths. What would you recommend to young people today? Yeah, no, I think it's probably a lot more challenging. There are lots of other opportunities to produce work. I think it's probably a lot more challenging to get internships in the places that people envision. I had a whole lot of nothing starting off in my career, and the reason why I went through the diversity program route was because I wanted people to know who I was and to work with me one on one to have that experience with me so that they can help me tell my story to other folks, the people who don't know me, so that I would have champions and advocates in the industry who can talk about me to other places. And that's how my first internship came about. It was directly after working with in the New York Times and journalism, again, I had a whole lot of nothing. My resume was a pittance. I had been working for the campus newspaper, that was it. But I literally, like my first clip from the Diamondback, I was stuffing it in the envelope to mail it to the New York Times Institute. I still, to this day, have no idea how they chose me. But it was through the work of the New York Times in journalism, you know, baby 18, 19-year-old, that the New York Times company then worked to get me an opportunity at the Wilmington Star News, which at that moment was still part of the New York Times company and the regional papers. And so that has been my tactic. I sort of replicated that and made that clear to a bunch of the students that I mentor. Now, again, I'm under no illusions of as to how difficult it is today. In fact, I think one of the things I try to tell the people who come to me for advice, and I was talking to a student yesterday about this, is, you know, making sure that you're seeking out the kinds of internship that are going to render the kind of skills that you're looking for, the kind of experience that you're looking for. And sometimes that means going to a smaller newspaper or a smaller market or going to a place that you've never been before and just going in, you know, cold turkey or just completely not knowing anything about it, because you'll have more opportunities to learn, to do different things instead of, you know, sort of looking for those big market internships off the bat, right? And so it's to sort of build up to that because, I mean, it's so, those first experience for me were so critical. Yes, and working in smaller communities before heading off to a big major metro just allows you, as someone reminded me, during one of my many mistakes as a journalist, it was nice to be able to make my mistakes at the Lynn Daily item in Lynn, Massachusetts, then add a big newspaper. So one of the other things that Eli, you know, we talked about public radio and podcasting. So how easy is it to do a podcast? I hear a lot of young people would say, I'm going to go out and start a podcast. Is that a good idea? I know, because of course the best podcast, they just seem so simple and easy, right? But isn't that the trick that there's a lot of work behind a podcast? And it's also a business. So what do you tell young people about podcasting? Yeah, it really depends on, you know, I think you need to know yourself a little bit in order to know what you want to produce. And I think that's true regardless of what medium that you're working in. With podcasts, I've never, you know, built one from the ground up. I've always, you know, sort of joined ones that I thought were really, really interesting and aligned with my passions. And when you say, you know, podcasts, you know, actually do involve a lot of work, I've been at National Geographic for about three, four weeks now, you know, as a part of the overheard at National Geographic podcast, which is, which features really great stories about science and exploration. But every episode, you know, involves at least, you know, five edits. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of hours spent gathering interviews and tape and listening to really great stuff. But it takes a lot of time and a lot of conversations about narrative arcs. And but that's, that's just the kind of podcast it is, if you are working on something that has a lot of production involved, it will take time. There are definitely conversation podcasts at that take, you know, less time to produce or that are sometimes just delivered raw. And that's, and that's, you know, that's a different type of animal. But, you know, I think that, you know, if you, I think for young people are interested in podcasting, it's definitely, you know, you definitely jump into it. And, you know, phone technology makes it really easy. Sorry, my dog has decided to join the conversation. Let's see them. Let's see. Oh, her name is Rosie. I thought I had given her a toy to distract her during this talk. But basically, I encourage anybody to get into podcasts if they want to. You know, it is challenging to make time for it. And sometimes, you know, you realize it involves a lot more labor than you think it does, especially once you get into the business side of things, knowing how to sell it and how to make sure that people are, you know, listening to it. But, you know, it's a great medium to be a part of because it's expanding so much right now. And public radio is a great way to learn, like working at a public radio station. Yeah, I'd say that, you know, learning how to produce audio for several years now has helped a lot with knowing, you know, what to listen for. Producing science stories has been, it's been really interesting because there's also, at least in, you know, when you're a science journalist, you're encountering a lot of people who are really passionate about their work, but they talk like they're writing a science paper or an academic paper. And that can be really difficult to translate to the general public. You know, so I think a lot of, you know, you do need sort of years of experience to know what to listen for and how to make, you know, a story sound really compelling. Thank you. That is so true, which Francine brings me to you. What is the most important skill for a young journalist to develop? Is it learning a story form such as audio, or is it learning how to dig, learning how to be a reporter, learning how to be a storyteller? Yeah, that's a great question, Jennifer. So, you know, I find that there's a lot of emphasis sometimes on the technology, get the digital skills. And I think that you cannot overlook the importance of having those basic journalism skills. You have to know how to interview people, source stories correctly, and research and dig for information. Fact-checking is huge today. And that's something I actually have been trying to focus more on with my students is really drilling down into researching and sourcing stories. Because I find a lot of times, a lot of students just don't, they don't know how to do that. And so it's very important, I think, to learn how to tell stories more than just any one particular type of technology. The technology comes, you know, I think you can use all of these different types of storytelling devices. But I think if you can't really report a story and source a story correctly, verify the information, have ethical pay attention to the ethics of what you're doing as a reporter, I don't think you're really doing the job just by throwing up a video. You have to really know how to get into it and understand what distinguishes you as a journalist from just somebody who's put something out on social media or and hasn't really gone through that real process of verification and sourcing and doing those things that really make good journalism. So that brings me to a question about a conversation just taking place in newsrooms across the country and on campuses across the country. And there was a senior editor at the Yale Daily News who recently wrote an essay about the line between journalists as advocates, as activists, you know, versus reporting. So there are certain rules that we have all followed as journalists for for many, many years to address the concerns about about the perception of bias. And at a time when the most recent gallop and night poll showed just stunning number of people, more than 60 percent believe that journalists are are bias. So how do you how do you what would you say to to young people looking to use reporting and journalism to bring about major change. I know that's what drew so many of us to the to the business. But do the same rules apply? Yeah, so it's a really it's really interesting. I have this discussion with my students. And, you know, I teach at an HBCU, a historically black institution. And so, of course, a lot of my students are very interested in the Black Lives Matter movement and all that's happening. And we've discussed this. And what I do tell my students is that obviously you're going to have your own personal feelings about what's happening. And I do tell my students, though, you know, you really you can't really be leading the protest and shooting the video in interviewing the sources to do the story. And so it's difficult to check that at the door when you go out because, you know, as an African American person in the society and people of other color, you you are experiencing things that definitely impact you, right? But I think that you want to still be able to tell those stories as authentically as you can. And so it's important to understand. Are you a journalist? Are you a journalist? Or are you an activist? They're not the same. But there is some activism sometimes through storytelling. And so I think it's important for the individual to make that decision. Are they being the journalist, trying to tell those stories in a way that makes sense, that gets the different, you know, the different sides of the story as best they can? Or are you are you going to be the person who's up leading the march? You have to make that choice, I think. And I think it can be a tough choice. But I think you do have to make that choice. I think there's a role for for both of those sides of that story. So in and yes, no, and those are conversations that that are taking place during this moment of national reckoning on systemic racial discrimination. And what about on on social media? So I think for some people it's it's it's challenging to be leading the march and also covering it. But the lines seem more blurred on on social. So I would love to hear from the panelists about how you think journalists should should show up on on social. I mean, I'm encouraged by the the conversations that are taking place right now. You know, you asked before, you know, what are some of those fundamental skills that that younger generation and journalists need. And I think ethics is a big part of that. But I think it's also about engaging in those conversations with younger people and not being dismissive of the fact that they are in the first place about coverage and that it is a moment where we need to sort of look at ourselves. And, you know, in some ways, especially if you're a journalist of color, you've been asking yourself these questions too. But if sort of adhere to these these standards that you have, you know, absorbed. And I think that needs to be like a reciprocal conversation with young people, what's appropriate in social media was it isn't because, you know, you could say, well, you shouldn't put any political opinions out there on on social media. But is our human rights political issues are, you know, is someone's skin color, you know, and their human dignity issue a political opinion. And I think those are conversations that need to take place. Again, within exchange of respectful exchange between the generations of journalists and not sort of just an outright dismissal of, you know, what is right. And this I get a lot of high school students who come into day camp who are on fire, right. They know the issues better than I do. And what's happening in their communities. And I think it's important to give them space to explore that. And to understand that, you know, because you're passionate about these issues, that's more reason for you to be fair in the way that you cover it, right. And that, you know, you need to ask yourself throughout the process are the questions that I'm asking the, you know, people in my story, are they fair is the way that I'm, you know, redacting, I mean, replaying their comments. Is it fair, right? Is this something would I, you know, the golden rule of journalism, if someone were to quote me in this way, would I be okay with that based on the conversation that we had had previously. And, you know, I think we need to listen to them more about how we need to do this, because unfortunately, right, we have as an industry lost a lot of credibility with the public, and in part because of the way that we cover marginalized communities. And I think the younger generation, you know, I have kids right now who are producing their own journalism completely on their own, right. I have two day camp alums who just put together something called the new journalism coalition, and it's on Instagram, right. They're they're producing and they're reinterpreting things that are happening for them digesting that and putting it out there on social in the ways that they understand it in the language that people of their generation understand. So I'm about giving them the space to explore that and then talking through, you know, what's appropriate, what's fair, and letting them in that process and make sure that they understand it's deliberative, right. You're not always going to come up, you know, just straight answers. Sometimes there are straight answers, sometimes they're not. Yeah. And just as you said, it's it's following the reporting right doing the doing the reporting. Sometimes you can have more impact, more social impact with really investing in that in in the reporting. So Eli. Yeah, I wanted to say that, you know, journalists of color really add a lot of value to newsrooms in that, you know, we have the lived experiences to tell stories with, you know, a racial equity lens. And that was something that I tried to do, especially in my last year at St. Louis Public Radio. I think that a lot of us when we enter the industry, our editors tend to be white, our bosses generally tend to be white. And, you know, the professors that we had at journalism school, they, a lot of them, you know, tend to be white. And so that, you know, sort of set certain standards for you. And, in, you know, I think that, you know, now with especially the events of this past summer, it's, it's, you know, it's natural to be emotional and to want to express how you feel. I've definitely expressed how I felt on social media, but, you know, with certain limits. And I think it is especially hard for young journalists and a lot of news outlets right now who are trying to report on racial injustice and then also are having to deal with racial injustice in their own news organizations. So that brings us to, to an old, an old problem in, in newsrooms, a problem that, that, that hasn't, that hasn't gone away. That's worsened in, in recent years. And that's the problem of diversity inside newsrooms. So we spoke a lot about how to get that first job, how to, you know, how to get into the newsroom. There's, you know, there are fellowships and internships and, and the Institute that you mentioned. But how do you, how do we support journalists of color inside newsrooms? Because we have lost so many talented people in newsrooms across the country in mid-career or even still in an early career. Because the culture inside newsrooms isn't, isn't, isn't fostering the kind of, the kind of listening that, that you had described that's so, that, that's so important. That hasn't, that, that hasn't addressed their own systemic racial discrimination inside their own institutions. So, so what are some of the, the changes that have to be made right now to ensure if we recruit wonderful young journalists of color to newsrooms that they'll feel supported and that they'll thrive? Yeah, I was in, so my last newsroom in St. Louis hired a lot of people of color in the last, you know, five or so years and some of them only stayed for a short amount of time. And, you know, I also had left at in the middle of August. And, you know, psychological safety is, is really paramount in the places that we work. And unfortunately for a lot of news organizations that psychological safety is still quite low. And I think that managers really need to do more to make sure that, you know, their employees of color actually feel heard and they feel comfortable talking in, in staff meetings. Those internal conversations are, you know, those are so important. And these are things that, you know, you know, that we document and we remember for the rest of our careers. Yeah, I would, I would agree with that. And, and like, I'll just tell you a story, right? I was, I was working on a project with several journalists across the newsroom. And it was a project that was super dear to my heart. It dealt with something that was a place and a people that are part of me. And, and this project was was going to be a big deal. The newspaper was investing a lot in it. And I was, you know, meeting with these 18 or so journalists at weekly or daily, I think at some point, talking about each step in the process and what we're going to do and how we're planning it out. And at some point, I started feeling like I, like I was just a seat in the room, right? Like I, that I was just there because, you know, I'm the translator or I'm this or that. And, and one time during the meeting, a manager and editor, you know, was listening to this conversation happening that to me at the time felt a little, I didn't feel like I was a part of, and when I should have been a part of it, maybe I should have said something, but it was still early in my time at that newspaper. I wasn't feeling very empowered at the moment. And that editor sort of stopped the meeting and asked me and said, Arellis, what do you think? How do we need to do this? And like everyone stayed quiet and the focus was on me and, and it was scary, but it was an opportunity. And I got a little emotional because it was, it was a lot for me. And to say what I think needed to happen and that we were missing the point of all of this. And it changed the direction of the conversation about that project at the time. And I was so grateful to that editor for having made, you know, having looked at me and realized that something was, was wrong about the way that we were having this conversation and gave me the space, again, to, to express and to be a part and to feel welcome in this space and as a value, right? And I think that's really important is making sure that if you're going to bring journalists of color into your organization, you need to make them feel valued. You need to, you know, give them feedback when they ask for it. And, you know, how did I do on that part? What could I have done better? Which is something I do with, with a lot of editors and, you know, frame opportunities for them. If you see like that, you know, the journalists of color or any, you know, anyone who works in your newsroom, this is like basic managerial stuff, right? If they're, if they're struggling, right, or they feel a little stuck, are there opportunities that you can help facilitate for that person to try something different or to gain a new skill or to be a part of a project that's happening in the newsroom that you think that they, they'd be good for, right? And creating those opportunities which is the same thing that was done for me early on in my career through these other journalism organizations, but creating those spaces for people to thrive and to feel as, as Eli said, heard and valued is really, really important and making sure that there is a path forward, right? There is a path to management for us because, you know, if I had to wait on an editor to tell me, like, it's okay to talk, I want others, I'm here because I have something to say. Well, and I think that you also noted earlier about how important, how much we have to learn from, from young people just about like so much, so much. So I'm going to go to some of the questions in the, in the, in the chat. So, so what is, what, oh, here's a, here's a question and, and Eli, you went to graduate school. So, so you might be and, and Francine and, and I did not go to graduate school, but I did teach at, at CUNY and at, at Columbia. And the question is, is graduate school of journalism worth the investment? In my experience, it did give me a network. So when I attended CUNY slash the Craig Newmark School of Journalism, you know, they, the program came with a $3,000 stipend for a summer internship. So you could go basically intern anywhere, even if they tended to, you know, not pay their interns. And that was, you know, that was a really, that was a really good resource to have. That's what allowed me to, you know, intern at Science Friday. And, but I'll say that, you know, I noticed that lately there's been, you know, a lot of conversations about whether matters where you went to journalism school, as long as you've shown that you have the grit to make it in the industry. And, you know, I saw a really great piece that was written within the last couple weeks by a young journalist named Omar Bashad, four pointer. And that was, and it was, it starts with a really sad story about how he has like a, you know, a community college student in California was, was, you know, asked by a journalism industry exec, you know, what was he doing there? And it's like, you know, it's such a discouraging question. And we shouldn't be discouraging people, no matter where they're from, as long as they have, you know, the passion to, you know, pursue the field. I just want to shout out Omar is a graduate of J camp. So it's awesome. There you go. And Francine, do you recommend graduate school for, for your students? So it took me a quite some time to go back to graduate school. I had worked in the industry for probably about 20 years at that point when I decided to go back for my masters. And for me at that point, it was kind of to switch into academia. So it was a little bit different path. But what I would say about people who are looking at whether graduate school can help them with their journalism career, I think one, it depends on what your major was. If you had a completely different major, and you feel like you need to learn about journalism, then, you know, grad school can definitely give you that. But I also think what I've heard from different folks who employ people in in the media industry, they're not always looking for people with a journalism degree. So if you have some other expertise that allows you to build a niche for yourself, that can also work for you. So really, it just kind of depends on what is your ultimate goal with going to graduate school. What are you trying to do with that degree? I really, I don't suggest graduate school, if you just don't know what you want to do in life, and you're kind of coming out of undergrad, and you're still not sure, I think that's a big bill to pay for just uncertainty. There are a lot of other things you can do to get some skills and figure out your career path. But if you're very intentional about what you're using graduate school for, there can be value in it. But again, you just need to really explore your options, look for the programs that really offer you what it is that you're trying to specialize in, and don't just go, you know, I'm in this town, I finished my undergraduate degree, I'll just stay here and go to a program because I'm here. Like you really want to be intentional about what it is that you're trying to get out of that graduate school experience, because it can be an exciting, rigorous, you know, academic experience, but it's also very expensive. So I just also thank you, Francine, and if you're looking for that network, it can provide that for you if you did not major in journalism, and the incredibly strong program at the University of Maryland, you know, really did set you up for, for, well, you set yourself up for outstanding success. So there we are. So here's a question from a student journalist at Texas A&M who's currently reporting on the situation in Lake Charles following Hurricane Laura, and he was wondering, a release about your experience reporting on hurricanes. You were in Puerto Rico reporting in the aftermath of Maria. So what advice do you, and other panelists, and Eli, you may want to jump in here, may have about reporting on, on climate disasters, especially as they become frequent. Like how and when do you bring in the science? So covering disasters is tough. The first thing I would say, if you're going to write as the disaster is happening, no story is worth your life or your safety, first of all. Make sure that you also have the right tools for eventualities for things that might happen. So for example with Hurricane Harvey, you know, the first steps that postjournalists do when we go into these scenes is that we stop at like a store and we buy stuff that we're going to need, water. I bought a hammer to smash out windows in the event that I, you know, drive into, I didn't mean to, but drive into flooded, you know, flooded roadways and things like that. You want to make sure that you feel secure enough in your own space, whether it's a rental car or whatever to, you know, to report on the story. I think in terms of finding the story, understanding where, where you need to go to get those voices, you go straight to the people, I think, and you, then you allow the officials to sort of frame out that story. But I think I always try to look for people first, because they're the ones who are going to tell you what it's really like and some of the challenges that they're facing. And it's, I find it much harder to read stories that don't have any actual voices of real people in there. And then you take what they've told you and put it in context of, you know, what the officials say, what the scientists say, what, what is, it's taking place. It's been a little bit since I covered Hurricane, Hurricane Maria being one of the most profound experiences of my career. And again, with that, like my focus was just on telling what I saw. There was a story everywhere in Puerto Rico. And, and, you know, it was, it was strange, I got one quick, quick, quick story is it when I landed in Puerto Rico after, after Maria had, had swept through because I actually didn't get there before I got there after I, my first job was to go to where the government was where the governor was giving his press conferences and stuff. And I was there for a day, got sort of their line and what they're thinking and what was going on. But I started feeling this anxiety that what they were saying was happening in that space was not matching what I was, what my colleagues were seeing out there. And at one point, you know, my editor's like, go, just go, like leave, leave that space that for the official statement and go out there and find it. And what you saw is that there was a major disconnect between what the narrative was from an official standpoint and what was actually happening on the ground in the way that people were suffering. Yeah, it's just amazing how important boots on the ground are to, or to covering, covering disasters. And it's also important just to have that context of, of science and, and Eli, how, how do you think journalists are handling climate change and the context of coverage of the wildfires in California and one storm after another slamming into the Gulf Coast? Yeah, so the best experience I have to relate to this is that I've covered river flooding a lot, especially in the St. Louis region. I came in the aftermath of the New Year's flood in, in 2015 and covered, you know, sort of the, I guess the, the continuing repairs that were going on at like huge facilities. And then there was another flood in 2017, also among the top 10. And then 2019, it was also really long and, you know, destructive even to this day. I mean, there are small towns along the Mississippi that have, you know, basically these shoestring budgets because they've spent so much money on resources. One challenge I think that climate change journalists are experiencing across the board is telling the same story over and over again, especially if they're, I know that that's happening with wildfire coverage that, you know, people are covering trying to do, you know, solutions focused reporting. And there's some really interesting, you know, science happening right now to better analyze, you know, you know, wildfires and, and how to, how to move forward. But yeah, the disaster coverage tends to be repetitive. And I think it's also taking a huge mental toll on people who've also experienced it many times. And I've seen that here with the flooding that people get sort of re traumatized by that news coverage. And, you know, and seeing headlines like what have we learned because a lot of times we don't act on what we should have learned. So yeah, I think, you know, always, always talking to more communities, more people, especially communities are hard to access. This is something that I had trouble doing in the St. Louis area because it's so segregated. You know, trying to, you know, talk to as many communities as possible about how they're affected by flooding because flooding tends to happen. It tends to affect different people in many different ways. Absolutely. And you just describe reasons how one way for young journalists, for all journalists to address this, this national reckoning is through reporting and, and recognizing the impact on communities and environmental, just the environmental injustice concerns in one community, community after another. So we're wrapping up today's episode 13 of informed and engaged. And I wanted all of the, all of our guests to know that the investigator reporters and editors conference is starting this week, along with the Institute for not-for-profit news has an online conference this week. And the online news association starts next week. These are all great, great ways to, to really hear from, hear from people in all different roles in journalism about, about what they're doing. And I really think it's a great investment in yourself to take the time and to sign up as a, as a, as a student or early career professional, because these, these are just like three opportunities to, to continue, you know, your education and, and networking. So one last piece of, of, of quick advice for, for young folks, especially during a pandemic, trying to get that internship, get that fellowship. We'll just go quick, quick round. Yeah, I'll start. So yeah, I just want to reiterate what Jennifer just said. Go to the conferences, join the organizations. I joined NABJ early on and got multiple jobs and internships out of attending NABJ conferences, unity conference. And those are really great places to network and even online. In this situation we're in, you should still attend the conferences online. That is just one of the best things you can do as an early career journalist. Absolutely. Yeah. And to sort of piggyback off of Francine. Yeah, I think finding your people is really important, especially at this time, you know, people like, I've been able to, you know, get along as well as I have, because I've had people to lean on in my, in, you know, whether it was in my former newsroom or just generally and, and, you know, always, always communicate what you're passionate about. I've been very lucky to get to where I am right now. But I think a large part of it is that I've always raised my hand and said what I've wanted to do. No, absolutely. That's all really great advice. I don't know what I can add to that, except, you know, work hard, but take care of yourself in the process, please. Because this is a tough industry and it's not for the faint-hearted. Well, thank you very much for this very inspiring conversation today. And perhaps we'll see you online at IRE, INN, and, and ONA. And please join us next Monday for Informed and Engaged. Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you.