 Good evening. I am Mark Hughes with the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and welcome to Justice Position. We're here for the first time starting this back up after the pandemic. We want to, well, we shouldn't say after the pandemic, but we are here. I have a special guest here with me, Debbie Ingram from Vermont Interfaith Action. Just sharing a brief blurb with you about what we're doing here at Vermont Racial Justice Alliance to secure sustainable power and ensure agency, provide security for American descendants of slavery while embracing their history and preserving their culture. That's what we do. We're doing that through a lot of ways and we're going to be bringing some of that to you. So welcome again. This is Justice Position. This is a program about issues affecting black folks and black folks effecting change in our community. So welcome. Tonight we're going to, this afternoon we're going to talk a little bit about the constitutional amendment. Again, like I said, I have Debbie here. Debbie, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for asking me. It was like a last minute thing. I'm always ready to jump on and talk with you. I believe that. You always are. As a matter of fact, just starting a conversation out. I know you are a freshman senator in 2017. That's right. I'm proud to say that you were the one who sponsored the constitutional amendment, the first constitutional amendment in over 240 years to affect change to address slavery in our constitution. You want to talk just a little bit about that before we get started about your experience with the Senate and how that played out? Sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, yes, it was because of you, though, because we were at a debate and I was a candidate for the Senate, as you said, and you asked all of us if we knew that the constitution that we swore an oath to actually had exceptions for slavery, actually allowed slavery in Vermont. I did. And we were all sort of our mouths kind of dropped. And we all kind of stammered around answering it. But I do believe that I was the only one who said, Well, if I get elected, I'm going to do something about that. You were the only one. And I'm not going to out anybody. I'll call them all out. This is all Chidman County. But it was. That's what started it. And I think it was in 2016 leading up to the election. That's right. Yeah, that was the election year. That's right. Yeah. Okay. And then what happened? And then what happened, right? Well, you can only introduce amendments to the constitution every four years. So we had to do what we do then 2019 is right. And yeah, so then I worked with you and you gave me some ideas for what the language should be, how it should be changed. And yeah, we had, we got a lot of sponsors actually, to the senator's credit to that proposition. But then it began quite a process, a long process to work with the Committee of Jurisdiction, which was the Committee on Government Operations, and to really hone that language and make some persuasive arguments, because not everybody was automatically on board by any means. So finally got through the Committee and then it got onto the floor. And I had a little, that was quite an interesting day when we when we debated it on the floor. And but we got across the finish line. She's going to step around that conversation. You're not going to talk about when you address the senator down. Okay, so it's this this this sister here was basically, well, I'm not going to go into it, but it was it was a good conversation. So you'll have to go and look it up yourself. So yeah, it was it was interesting. The whole process was interesting. And it was frustrating, because we we sought to amend the Constitution in a certain manner. We wanted to bring language in the language that we thought was appropriate. We wanted to use, because often when we're when we're changing, when we're writing policy at the statewide level, we always have an intent, like a legislative intent. And then there's legislative research and so forth. And there was language that we were trying to connect it to systemic racism. Racism, we were also trying to connect it from an intent perspective to the 13th Amendment. But we didn't really have as much success with that as we would have liked to. Do you think that has contributed to the I guess the maybe the the lack of attention that's that's on this and maybe the disassociation that many people have when we when we're talking about this in different places? Yeah, I do think that a lot of demonstrators don't really get the whole context of what we're trying to do here. And definitely some of the legislators themselves, many of them, didn't want to go didn't see the connection between our legacy of slavery and the systemic racism that exists today. And so they couldn't they couldn't make that connection. And then some weren't even aware of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution and the exception for punishment of a crime, which has been enthrined in our in our own federal Constitution since 1865. So yeah, they did, you know, I mean, you know, I'm just gonna say, I'm a white person. And lots of white people, you know, I know I've been on a journey to understand better the fact that people of color have had a very different experience of the United States of America than than I have as a privileged white person. And I think that white people of goodwill are trying to educate themselves and trying to to understand better. But it's a journey. And it's a step by step process. And, you know, at least in Vermont, we have the ability to to talk to one another. But sometimes we also have to kind of light a fire under one another. And sometimes, yeah, you know, so it's finding that right balance. And, you know, I'm glad that eventually it came around so that all but one senator voted in favor of it. Yeah, but there's such an education involved in this. Absolutely. And I know that, you know, it's almost like folks, just as as it is, almost have to be incentivized just to, you know, to learn something these days. And as I said, you know, there is a downstream connection to our Constitution as it pertains to our statutes, as it pertains to our rules, our institutions, so on and so forth. And because what we know is is that, you know, if there's this thing called and then here's another term, and here's another, you know, class one must take is this thing called systemic racism. And everybody's Oh, boy, here's another one. Because now we have to unpack that and define what that is. If if that's the case, then by its definition, which will maybe spend a little time in a minute on by its definition, what would it would it actually suggests is that, of course, there are disparities that exist across all systems of of state government or all of these determinants. So when we look at the numbers, like if you look on our website, you'll see that, you know, we reflect how housing and education and employment and health services access, economic development and so forth, that there are adverse disparate outcomes, not by accident. It's not it's not like Lemony Snicket's or something like that. Oh my God, I can't understand why every single time black people, you know, maybe they're just not as smart as us, you know, maybe, you know, maybe they're just unlucky, you know, because, you know, so the truth is, is when we start to look at all of these numbers side by side. And when we start to look at our history as a nation, then we're able to put those two things together and understand that there is a legacy of slavery. So I think that I think on one count, there may be a lot of folks that still struggle with that alone, because when one says slavery, you know, one has to embrace what slavery may have meant in 1777. No matter, no matter whether it was for the conviction of a whether it was for debts fines or the like or whether it was a person's own will, or whether it was, you know, because they're under the age of 21, which are the three exception clauses that that exist in our Constitution. But still that making that connection, I think, why people have difficulty with that? It's very true. Yes. Yeah. Well, absolutely. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard. But, but, you know, because any anytime we develop an institution like slavery, human beings develop this institution. The the idea basically is that some people are completely dehumanized. You know, that that we're saying it's okay for some people to own other people. And of course, that mindset that and the and the culture that gets that gets built around it will then bleed into every every possible institution. You can't just say because, you know, we, we fought the Civil War and and some, you know, a few laws were changed that everybody's thinking automatically changed. And, and in fact, what happened after the Civil War when reconstruction started, you know, there were some good ideas. But very, very quickly, you know, the Supreme Court basically invalidated both the 13th and the 14th amendments that it opened up the way for black codes, which imprisoned black people for petty crimes that white people wouldn't have even been cited for much less imprisoned for. And that opened the way in turn to Jim Crow laws, segregation in all kind of every walk of life. These things, right, you know, and then now we have what has been termed the new Jim Crow, which is drug wars where, you know, black men especially are imprisoned at much higher rates than white people. And just on and on and on. And, you know, our, the way that we developed our suburbs. Do white people like you? Lots of white people, lots of white people do like me, you know, you know, it's yeah, sometimes, sometimes I get a few, you know, side long glances. But, but no, I certainly sounds like you've done your homework. And I think it's exceptional. Well, thank you. You've that you've gone and you've done the work that you're doing the work. And because these are not only are these not easy conversations. In fact, they're difficult conversations. But it also, you know, it takes it takes a lot, it takes effort and time to go in and unpack all of this. You know, we're talking about education. So we're dealing with so many different things that got so many moving parts. Here we've got our Constitution, which we haven't even covered yet. So we haven't even talked about what we're trying to resolve. Here's, here's the proposals that actually fixes that. Here's the definition of systemic racism over here. So there's so much that feeds into that. And there's a slide later on the 13th Amendment, which, you know, our folks at the Abali Slavery National Network, our national partners, one of our national partners, the numbers from them, they say that only 22% of America realize that there is a clause in the 13th Amendment that still has allowed slavery since 1865. So for the last 157 years, there's been a, there's been a clause, excuse me, there's been a clause in the Constitution that says that slavery is permitted and nobody, most folks in the United States don't seem to know about it. Yeah. Oh, I know it's that is true. Well, I do want to put in a plug for the white people that in the congregations where I've been doing these presentations. And there are a lot of, you know, there are a lot of white people, I think who are finally, you know, sadly, the horrible tragedy of George Floyd and so many other black people being being killed. And then the Black Lives Matter movement has really has stirred up a lot of white people to understand things better. And they are, and you know, many people besides me are trying to educate ourselves and, you know, trying to take that journey as I was talking about before and understand better. But, but yeah, it's so true that they're, they're still and a lack of awareness. And you know, we've been taught, you know, the things we were taught in our schools, you know, Vermonters were taught that Vermont was the first state to abolish slavery when now we know that's, that's not true. Yeah, people don't like to hear that. They don't like to hear that, I know, but it's, you know, the fact that, you know, there's the 13th amendment has an exception in it. People weren't taught that in school. I got a lot of hate mail for that one. Yeah, the whole this we weren't the first state to abolish. I mean, but it's true. It is true. It's the truth. And the truth is, in fact, that in 1777, and this, you know, listeners would really do well to kind of tune in on some of some of this stuff is because before 1777, when in Windsor, our state constitution was written, there was never a constitution, any state's constitution that contained any language about slavery whatsoever. So when our constitution was written in 1777, we wouldn't go on to be a part of the union until 91. But understand that 10 years later, in 87 was when the United States Constitution was written. There were also three or four other states that wrote constitutions in the Northwest territory, wrote a constitutional document as well. They would emulate Vermont. So they would go on to create exception clauses. Because Vermont was the the trailblazer. We were we are the what we call the grand daddy of all exception clauses. There are there's never been an exception clause in any foundational document before Vermont. And that's something really super duper to process. Because when you start thinking about that, what that means is we actually establish something, right, really important to think about. And as we start to think about the fact that it was an exception clause in the 13th amendment that really led to Jim Crow, right? It really, you know, through convict leasing and chaircropping, it led to Jim Crow. We start to see this legacy. I think the other thing is that we don't understand about, you know, this how this all this stuff connects is obviously poverty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Because obviously, pornographic levels of wealth were were were handed down generationally. But benefactors of poverty were largely black people. And of course, later, there would be the creation of or the exacerbation of poverty in our white rural communities as well. So I think there's so much to learn here. How are we going to do it? How are we going to get folks to the ballots to understand, you know, how I mean, folks are going to look at this, and they're going to be like, this is either a joke, or else, I'm just going to vote no, because I don't know what it means. So what's what's the strategy? Yeah, well, let's partner together, Mark, and use and use grassroots organizing methodologies. No, that's what that's what we've been talking about now for quite a while, right? So, so yeah, that's, that's the basis of Romano Interfaith Actions methodology and on lots of issues. But, you know, we're working together to reach across the entire state to we've been via has been doing presentations, congregation by congregation to explain some of this to do some of this education. And then we've used those to start recruiting volunteers who are going to be involved in a campaign that is going to have people writing letters to the editor to calling up their the people having personal conversations with their friends and their neighbors and their coworkers, doing phone banking, doing all kinds of things like a any kind of campaign. But we're we're really building a network of people all across the state, just, you know, ordinary regular Vermonters who are people of goodwill who who are willing to be educated on this and who want to understand and to to really support something that will that is very meaningful and very important. Yeah, we're happy to be partnered with Vermont Interfaith Action in in the in faith, the faith in action at the at the national level with our with our partners as well at the Abali Slavery National Network. We we know you guys probably represent what about maybe 16,000 folks across the state, maybe 70 congregations. That is right. You got that right. I did my homework. Yes, you did. So so yeah, I mean, so there there's that. And I think for folks who are watching is so important. You know, when we start thinking about, you know, what we're doing here is is, you know, when we start talking about this whole idea of eradicating systemic racism is just to make sure you get the opportunity to take a look at, you know, at at our website and maybe come out, you know, because we're also doing some stuff on Thursdays, every Thursdays, checking and come out and hang out with us. I know you guys are there as well. Here's what the Constitution says. I have to read it. I have to read it. It says it says that all persons are born equally free. I'm going to stop there for a minute. And the reason why we're going to do this, I think is because this is where the education starts. Right. Yeah. And taking this time for folks who are watching us live today, this is an opportunity for folks to say, Hey, proposal two on the on the ballot in November, actually amends our Constitution and it definitely removes language in our Constitution that suggests slavery because it's right here. Here's what it says, folks. It says this watch. It says that all persons are born equally free and independent and have certain natural inherent and unalienable rights amongst which are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. Therefore, no person born in this country or brought from overseas ought to be holding by law to serve any person as a servant, slave or apprentice after serving to the age of 21 years unless bound by a person's own consent after arriving to such age or bound by law for payment of debts, damages, fines, costs or the like. That's it. That's what it says. So it's there. It's right there. It's black and white. It's right here. It's in the Constitution. So that clears that up. So we can so we can move forward from that. And I think there's another piece, though, because if if we're if we're really, you know, I know right now there's there's other things that are happening across the state, across the United States, you know, the cannabis things, you know, there's because this cannabis is a schedule one drug, but we just rolled out a market. So we basically told the feds, we're going to do what we're going to do because our values are XYZ. Well, our values concerning slavery in this state, that's what we're really trying to define in this in this what we would call a referendum. Yes. So the other thing we should share is the 13th Amendment. Can I give it to you? Can you read it? Sure. The 13th Amendment. Yeah, it's shorter than the article in the Vermont Constitution. It says, neither slavery nor involuntary servitude except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted shall exist within the United States or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Thank you for that. You got the short one. Yeah. I should have read that one. So I think the point that we're making here, that I'm making here, is by amending our Constitution and we should share the language that they have proposed the Constitution be amended to. The language just says that all persons are born equally free, independent and have certain natural inherent and unalienable rights amongst which are enjoying and defending life liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. Therefore, slavery and indentured servitude in any form are prohibited period. So that's that's that this is your constitutional amendment. So just to just put a really fine point on it, what we're actually doing is two things. What we're doing is, is number one, we're removing three exception clauses from our Constitution, which have had to what extent we don't quite know yet and we shouldn't mind answering the question like that when folks say, so what implications have this language had on our statutes, our rules, our laws, our institutions? We'll get there. We'll figure that out and we are doing some of that. We're figuring some of that out. I'm not going to spend a lot of time with that and I think it's kind of like peeling an onion. So it just so happens to be we're at the fourth year so now we can go back for another constitutional amendment and we have one. We'll talk about that later. And there's also statutes and I think maybe next week we could talk more about them. But yes, there are downstream implications by removing that language because there are some things here in the state that we think may not necessarily stand constitutionally because we know that the Constitution is the litmus test for all legislation being passed and also the litmus test for any appeal that comes up through the courts challenge in any law. So if the Constitution changes then of course our nice judges would have to take that into account. The second thing that it does, which is super amazing, is that it negates the loophole in the 13th amendment which means no thank you federal government. We would prefer not to have slaves. So I'm wondering with the work that you are doing, is that hard for folks to catch on to as we're getting around to the congregations and having the conversations with the clergy and organizing the communities? Is that something that we're having difficulty with? Well certainly a surprise to a lot of people. I mean I kind of when I do the presentation I sort of stop and say you know this language about except for payment of fines, damages and costs. Does that remind you of any other kind of language? And very few people there only been one or two presentations out of you know we've done about 15 of them where somebody was able to say oh yeah that sounds like the 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. So you know people are you know again we've just been taught that oh yeah no we you know 13th amendment just you know it ended slavery and it's like well but actually read it. What's the biggest challenge with folks? I mean I'm just curious to see what I do hear what because I've been you know I was in training on Saturday. I heard some great questions and I was kind of like I ain't saying nothing right but what's some of the biggest challenges that that you're seeing as you're going around the state? Well just you know people just don't know they haven't been taught you know and I think finally we're beginning to realize in this country that the things that we were told in the past aren't necessarily all true you know not completely true and it's it's but it's hard right it's hard for people if they've been taught something all their life that it's one way to go oh oh my goodness I gotta switch gears here and change and and go wow it doesn't say what I thought it said and then well what does that mean then then in the bigger picture you know what what does that mean so that's that's where we are it's a difficult place for for folks to be and I think the other connection that's so because this is this is stuff that people need to care about in order to stop and take the time to learn mm-hmm yeah and when you start thinking about generational wealth yeah you know we were talking about restrictive deeds a little while ago back in the legislative session and that's a whole nother show but when you start thinking about you know property ownership there of black folks who own property in the city of Berlin in the city of Berlin 13 13 houses belong to black folk in the city of Berlin so that's so you've got to be able to stop and take a step back and say there has to have been some kind of contiguous connection to this thing called slavery and things like slavery and badges and incidents surrounding slavery but even if that weren't the case just to be able to step back and say okay throw your hands up like we did on Saturday and say do we want slaves or not that's just a simple question do we want to be a state do we want to own slaves or not as a person right now as tax pay tax paying folks in the state of Vermont do we want to walk around saying we own slaves right yeah right so that it's okay to own one person to own another person right isn't cool is it cool yeah right exactly we hope everyone will say obviously not but some people won't right yeah it's and I think that's that's really what we have to come to terms with too is is to find our people yeah find our people and and that's fine you know of course you need to talk to you talk to your uncle the guy who's sitting at the table that person you never want to talk to find our people um Debbie thank you so much um it's been great you are amazing i'm so glad you came out um i want to um before we close out i will share a little bit about um we're having a we're having fun at the Richard Kemp Center and i want to talk a little bit about that and invite you out to come down and join us uh because we're doing some things we're shooting some things for those of you who don't know what the Richard Kemp Center is is is again as some of these challenges manifest themselves in our neighborhoods you know we know we systemic racism the legacy of slavery it has created significant wealth disparities and cultural disempowerment um amongst black verminers one way in which this manifests itself is as i just told you a little while ago is the housing ownership here in in the city of Burlington uh we know that adverse racial disper uh disparities they exist across all of these social determinants as we said earlier and these disparities in addition to cultural erasure in appropriation directly and indirectly affect the health and the wellness of black um black folks and individuals and communities around here and it also watched this it also threatens economic development democracy and even social health and the wellness of all verminers so what we're doing here in uh Burlington is is we're centering the needs of black the black community in the work of rectifying historical racial inequities uh we're accomplishing this work by serving as cultural brokers uh in the city of Burlington in the expansion of the programs and the services uh to these marginalized communities where they have historically uh been ineffective in a lot of cases they've been inefficient and sometimes even non-existent and so we're creating new systems that empower black verminers denied equal access uh to public or private economic and other opportunities and we're creating space in Burlington where black communities uh wellness and culture and youth they all intersect so i just needed to get that plug in that was my responsibility i had to say that to y'all before we got off of here again debbie thank you so much for being with us stop being and hang out with us at the kim's center thank you for the work that the vermont interfaith action is doing um and thank you for taking this thing to the ballot with us we're gonna together we're gonna win we are thank you for inviting me thanks again and thank you all for coming as well we'll see you next time here we are juxtaposition the racial justice alliance we're glad to have you good night