 So thank you everyone for joining. This is going to be a Women in Tech panel, but it's actually has to do more about diversity and inclusion overall So we know a lot of times we talk about women in tech, but it's there are so many other Genders and it's not just binary so it has to do about everything and we're just gonna have like four amazing women here So I'll have you introduce yourselves, please. Yeah, my name is Anna. I live in London since September I actually just moved to Nothing Hill really exciting I work for a company called elastic and I do a lot of community work in my free time I sit on the Python Software Foundation Board of Directors And I'm a co-leader of Pie Ladies London. I live in London as well. I've been here for 16 years I'm also very local. I work at Bloomberg, and I've worked at Bloomberg for 18 years And I've done a whole lot of roles over my career and I've done So for engineering roles, I've done team leader roles I used to look after all of our engineering teams here in London up until about two months ago And then I started to do a technical product in a role Hi, I'm Carolina I've been working for seven years in Switzerland for startups and medium-sized companies In roles such as full-stack and data engineer and then I moved to London And now I work as an independent consultant for the same type of companies and in my free time I enjoy painting them actually I'm running a workshop that combines The concepts about programming and art I want the details of that later Hi, my name is Laura Morinigo. I basically also recently moved to London after being having two years of digital normal life so yes, and I'm really happy about it and Currently I'm a Google Developer Expert around the DDG cloud community here in London So and also I'm doing IT consulting for different startups, too Nice, okay, so I forgot to introduce myself. It seems Hi, I'm Mariana. I work in Bloomberg as well. I've been working here for about five years I'm currently leading a team in London and I'm also a member of the Python guild in Bloomberg, which is pretty cool So by the way, I'm not just looking at Instagram. I have the questions here So Let's start with saying a bit more about what you're doing and so on so tell me about something cool you're doing right now Except of being on this panel. Okay, I'll let you I have an idea. Yes. Talk about So one somewhat recent interest of mine is about improving the hiring process so I've been working with with a company to design new coding questions and I'm also Working with another company to improve their their interviewing process To to make it not test not just for our goal Algorithmic skills, but also other skills that are very useful for a programmer to have so communication skills communication skills for example and also being able to take an existing code patient to work with it without Bending it to the ground Because legacy is a fact of life that we get used to Okay How about something you've worked on that's very that you felt was impact-filled. I Actually have a story to tell so I Pileadies Ghana reached out to me. There's the first tycoon Africa happening in August I don't know the exact dates, but you all should go because it's awesome. It's organized by a woman called Marlene Mangami I don't know right now look at online And Pileadies Ghana reached out to me and they asked if I could tell their members a little bit about how to write a proposal How to prepare for a conference talk and someone tweeted at me yesterday? And she watched my workshop and she got her first conference talk accepted and that's really awesome. So yeah That's really good and that was definitely impactful when you get the feedback. It's what makes it. Yes. Yeah, I Can share a little bit about something that I'm doing now So I started to do a very different role a couple months ago And it's been hugely exciting and I haven't I haven't felt this Completely stupid in a long time And for me that's been a lot of fun and very challenging And it's been kind of learning lots of different technologies and it's been it's been great But what we're trying to do the crux of what we're trying to do is help to make the engineers that you know Bloomberg at our company a lot more kind of effective by not looking in Tons of places to find Official documentation and correct information about kind of what tools they should be using and you know What the latest status of different APIs are? So that's something that the impact of that is something that I've felt many times over the years is like as as an engineer as well As a leader of teams. It's like well, where do I find this information? It's like you just need to ask that person Like yeah, you couldn't you could you can look and you definitely should do that But once you've done all that research, you just need to go talk to them So being able to improve that process for kind of our population I think is something that I'm very excited about because it's very real something. I'm experiencing now And yeah, it's definitely it's challenging me. I can tell you it's gonna have an impact on me for sure Great well, I'm working right now with a really excited startup that is called train effective Basically, it's a football online academy. So for me, it's really exciting. I really like football. I'm from Argentina, by the way That's why Actually the founder is just 23 years old and it's a really young team and they are about to skill about like million users so I'm a leading the developer team and help them to a skill and besides football and The proof that is really a bit technology. They have these Academy to also focus into mental health into the kids that actually they want to start playing football and Help them to grow as a person. So that for me is really exciting Okay, it sounds like you're all doing very cool stuff actually and it's very interesting when I asked what cool are you working on? It was like silence But How do you keep yourself motivated and working through everything and keep doing incredible things? It's a hard one. I think I think everybody like it just happens to everybody that people don't feel it sometimes For me, it's really been Connecting with people and sharing my problems and maybe that's kind of I'm spreading the misery a little bit But for me, it's really trying to find people that I think care about things that I care about Maybe share kind of some sort of values that we have in common and then just kind of trying to work together to really You know figure out if I'm stuck on something or if I'm feeling really not, you know kind of inspired by what I'm doing is Is you know really working with others that kind of care about it? and the other thing that I think is you know also important is just to know when you yourself have hit your wall and You know, whatever that wall may be whether it's kind of you know Needing a change of scenery change of role change of people change of technology I'm you know realizing what it is that kind of does drive you and putting things in place and being proactive about Getting you inspired again. No one's gonna inspire you. You have to figure out for me what like that's how I've Gone about it. Yeah kind of what takes and yes So I recently kind of hit a point of meetup organizing and fellow meetup organizers might agree with me So there's the common problem that you always have about a 50% no show rate for meetups And it's sometimes very disheartening if you put like a lot of Hard work into organizing a meetup you organize the venue you organize the speakers and only 10 people show up So that's sometimes disheartening, but then I remind myself Maybe I have some standards that are too high if I just reach one person and I make a difference in their day Then I've done something good Also as Christine said it's important to take breaks Especially well all of us we do a lot of volunteer work in the Python community And I think it's important to go on a real vacation Don't do any volunteer work on vacation just set that out of office reminder one of my Former co-volunteers once said to me there are no emergencies in open-source software. We're we're not doctors So if you go on vacation for two weeks, it will still be fine people might miss you, but that's good But yet take breaks Yeah, I agree in fact Well, I've been traveling on my own the last two years one of the reasons that I've been doing that is to meet other communities and There are moments in in my career that I didn't know what it was the next step So basically the first step that I need to do is keep some space to check which kind of the things are like Which kind of the things I don't want to write and with that space basically going to the next step, so For me what helps is that I work in a flexible way so I can basically To a certain extent choose my hours and that means that when I feel some Burnout or whatever coming I can choose to to go out in nature instead of working on day And this has helped me a lot like compared to To how it was when I was working full-time Also, I think saying no is important and it's something that a lot of us are bad at I have this rule like if I don't feel a hundred percent. Yes This excites me and I say no and this is sometimes really hard But you don't have to say no or in a rude way you can say no not me But I have these other ten friends who might be able to help you With what you're looking for so don't be afraid to say no It's oftentimes better than loading more and more and more onto your plate And also I think what some communities Struggle with is it's always the same set of people organizing all the things But then there's the other 50% of people who say hey, I want to get involved, but I don't know how So let's give those people a chance to get involved as well Yeah, I think it's a really like important kind of signal to yourself that like if you find most of the time You're not enjoying kind of what you're doing that Something probably isn't right and I like your sort of am I really excited about this like does it spark joy? Who's that? Those who are tide ears, you'll know what I'm talking about Yeah So you mentioned actually helping someone as well. How about mentorship either being a mentor or Being a mentor to someone else. Sorry being a mentor or being a mentee Well currently I'm mentoring online I used to teach coding in My city, but then when I started to travel it's kind of hard, right? You're not have the classroom. So I get the chance to keep mentoring and doing classes online and Besides teaching is all about also you learn from each other, right? It's not it's not it's also a different role that you can have your experience or even the different ideas that somebody can have about career and You already been in that path can help a lot to somebody as somebody help me in a different way For me mentoring is part of my career for sure As I mentioned I offer speaker mentorship I currently don't do it as much as I used to but that's really Important and something that sparks a lot of joy in me For being a mentee I think some people think that you have like that one person that you turn to for everything for me It's not like that like I have mentors for Different things like my friend Lorena. I would consider her like she has taught me a lot about self-worth for example So she's a mentor to me in that field my friend Jeff He taught teaches me a lot about personal finance So I think just like build relationships with different people. You don't have to have one person for everything I agree and one thing that helped me a lot because I have a Kind of similar way to you have a financial co-op like relationship coach Actually be able to share in which part of your life are you and also which kind of Things you want to improve Financial okay, I'm struggling with these I would like to know which other person has a similar way And then you can help each other Yeah, that's that's I think very similar to what I've experienced. I've just tried to I've been fortunate to get to know and work with lots of very very skilled and experienced people over the years and just kind of really Connecting with different people and sharing my problems and hearing their problems and hopefully we've been able to co-mentor each other Over the years is really how I've kind of tried to set up kind of my own kind of mentorship Experiences whether I was the mentor or whether I was the mentee Martha my friend Martha and I we just talked about how do people build friendships And I think what it comes down to and what also is true for mentorship is that it takes a lot of vulnerability You have to admit that hey all my relationship sucks or hey I'm bad at spending my money and then the mentor also has to open up a little bit for you to build up a relationship but One quote that I really like that I've heard I don't know where I picked it up, but it's that people don't associate with don't relate to perfect They relate to vulnerable and so I think vulnerability is really something that unites us. It's really hard But I think it's it's always been worth it when I was vulnerable with people. Yeah, it sounds like many brown Probably Yeah She's a story teller she's she has been studying vulnerability. Yeah, and all this Yeah How do you think the mentorship kind of relationship Happened was it something that was organic or was it just For you. I've had the best results when it's organic like when there is a Business them and much in the in that the mentor has time and the knowledge that you seek and you You also have the the time and Dedication to actually so that you're committed and Deserving of like the attention of this person. There are also some platforms where you can try to get matched up with mentors Usually those are not they're not free. This can also work out for like Very specific things. I think one such platform for example is code mentor.io where people can get help on specific problems Okay, thank you so we talked about mentorship, let's talk a bit about leadership and intake in terms of Being in a minority group and I know Christine. You've been a leader for a while So do you think this ever was has affected? Well, it's interesting. I think I think I might put that question back to you actually I Can share it like I can definitely share my experience and I guess that I Think technology is great because When there's disagreements in many cases you can kind of really you know look at data And kind of look at what works and yes, we can still disagree about how we're going about things and yes There are like myriad opportunities to still have conflict and and to still have kind of you know Issues with leadership and you know creating an environment where people are thriving and where products are able to be built Which are really amazing, but I guess From from my experience. I guess I've seen my leadership challenges really not through a gender lens. It's been through Particular challenges Which with with how my personality is I think and kind of how my what my background is what my skill set is and of course There's an aspect of gender to that, but it never felt for me I think a lot I'm sure has to do with what company environment you're in and I think for for our company environment At least it's something that I think we spend a lot of time trying to create very inclusive Spaces and have people really be heard and so I think for for our environment the gender thing was never Like a big part of you know being a leader for me If anything, I think like it probably you know, I was oh, she's this the girl Like and it but it went in but in a positive way as opposed to a negative way. How about how about yourself I? actually I Know I actually haven't had an issue with this in Bloomberg To be fair and not in a leadership perspective for sure It has to do a lot I think with your personality and it does have to do a lot with the kind of the team environment that you yourself Inspired to others in others as well So you can have a team that's very inclusive and that doesn't have to do with gender or like anything very specific It has to do more with even personalities You have people who are very extroverted and you have people who are very introverted and having those two personalities in the same team can also It can be an issue But also it can just not be one and it just has to do a lot with an inclusive environment And I think this is the most important part And it's interesting because we obviously exist in our corporate bubble to a certain extent and I guess You ladies like are like there's community groups that you're leading and like that must it's very different because you don't have this You know kind of like other kind of creature That's kind of creating this environment and trying to enforce this environment. So I guess like how has that been for you guys? It's all about giving the space right and also Check which other person can support you Besides that because one of my first roles as a leader was actually in a really small startup leadership and There were three other Super nice guys and actually at the beginning it was even hard for me because I did to lead it was I don't know I was feeling even we're given instructions, but it's not about that, right and Other member that was there Was like, okay right now you are giving the space for you to actually Guide the team getting both with other team members, right and I felt more comfortable because also I think it's in terms of personality in terms of who you are in terms of sometimes Oh, I can be a leader Sometimes that's other thing right that happened. So I think it's about communication and giving this space also to others For me, I have to say I've been mostly on the individual contributory Ika lone wolf path. They think if it's okay for guys to do it. It's okay for me as well. I Think it's also a lot about encouragement like I'm Kind of in this place where I'm deciding do I want to go the individual contributor path or do I want to be a manager? I do really enjoy helping people But I'm also terrified to mess up something as a manager because I think it's really hard to be a good manager And you obviously want to do it, right? But then I in my company We just hired a lot of very strong women and I look at them and I ask them and they share things with me and It kind of like helps me see. Yes. I want to be like her one day. For example, Samantha. She's our VP of sales for EMEA She's like this bad ass woman who can be really strict with all the territory managers if she has to but she's also Super approachable and will have a chat with me in the kitchen about yoga or about her anxiety or things like that So I think what it comes down to is having strong female role models and Encouraging other women to also take on leadership Roles because as you said like sometimes we are leaders, but then we're like am I really a leader? I think we always have to have this tendency to put ourselves down in posture syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. It's very common. I have it too To be fair, it's interesting like because this question was asked about leadership And I haven't had people I haven't felt ever that people thought of something because of my gender in terms of leadership And it was very funny because I was talking with a friend and I was like, oh People have never said anything to me that was like six in any way like it's fine And then he's like well like ten minutes ago. You were telling me how this person said oh, you don't look like a programmer or Like I'm like, oh Actually, you're right. I just shrug it off so well like I've learned to shrug it off That's the thing. It's not that it doesn't necessarily exist and I think I'm quite a strong personality. So I wouldn't I Wouldn't be to put it on myself and stop myself from I would shrug it off, but I understand that for other people That can be a real issue. Yeah, that's why even this space about showing off that okay She can be my next role model or that is possible. She is a leader, right? People can get more involved and actually you're giving visibility about what you're doing Yeah, I think role models are very important and it keeps coming up here So I think we might as well touch upon that So, what do you guys think about roles models? Have you ever had someone you looked up to and that's drove you more or anything like that You that may sound cheesy about my mom No, my mom She's a very hard-working woman and she's always taught me and my sister I want you to have an education. I want you to make your own money and be independent And I think that she's really taught me how to work hard So I'm really thankful to her because she's taught me a lot and make it emotional talking about her but Also recently I recently had a trip to South Africa and I started reading more about Nelson Mandela I think he's a really inspiring person. He inspires me a lot It's very hard to top that answer I have to tell you Well, I don't have role models per se. I think it's never been asked that and now we're searching frantically for some So but the thing is I do get inspired from people in my daily life. I am I am very Observant so I notice when they have like a way of dealing with things that is different than mine and I can appreciate it and sometimes also incorporate if I see like a Good way like a healthy way of dealing with things that other people have shown me that this inspires me and can make me change as well Yeah, I think it's also related with Visibility a lot because sometimes, you know, this kind of thing that says you don't know that it's possible Till you see it sometimes and it happened to me actually one of the first times that I went to meet up I was really young so long ago. It was age HTML5. I think so like and And actually I get really inspired with one of I consider him one of my role models Because he was in front of the stage talking about technology and talking about actually he was traveling around the world, right? Teaching about this and I was like, wow, that's a cool job. I want to do the same thing, right? So after that Actually, I met him even we were in the same in the same Environment a lot and they gave me the opportunity to start doing kind of the same thing But before that I didn't know that it was a kind of role or like actually was a real job, right? So giving the possibility to make visible what you're doing. I Think it's great. You never know who else is it can be inspired by you Yeah, and I think that when I say yes to do these kinds of things, I Normally I do it so hopefully kind of the people in our organization and just other people can see like anybody can do that That's fine, right? Like Seeing more people who are kind of like from all different kind of walks of life And have lots of different experiences get up and kind of you know talk about the things that they've done I think that's kind of what You know, we need to make sure that we have a lot of those people who are you know Women and from all different communities So, you know children kind of are looking up and seeing lots of different kind of kinds of people doing different jobs that you know We need people to do and that have lots of opportunities So for me, that's kind of what's really kind of you know important from the role model kind of question at this point Because yeah, I was like my parents like Try to pick up lots of kind of skills and way of dealing with things as I interact with people Yeah, I think that is important actually a lot of people take heart from seeing other people doing things They are kind of interested in and are not sure and then they see them doing it and they're like, oh, you know what? Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, okay So going back to more of a diversity and inclusion Overall aspect so we know there have been mistakes because people didn't take diversity and inclusion into account Let's say for example a very old one from the seatbelts who were not really designed for women or children So it ended up being dangerous or like from man and from a software that recognized faces and let's say for Specifically it didn't really work out very well so Why do you think it is important to have diverse inclusion in your own opinion? I'm laughing because I just had this conversation over lunch with two guys I think diversity is such a broad topic. It's not I think in software It's a lot about diversity of genders, but I think it goes beyond that It's diversity of sexual orientations and religions and even backgrounds like I I studied English and Catholic Theology so I come like from a different world basically But there are so many skills that I can use in my job right now like communication skills project management skills language skills So I don't know like over lunch we discuss that diversity is important because we need to realize that we're all different and Different is good different isn't bad. So yeah Yes, I completely agree with that and something that I don't like Is for example the world minority because it's like, okay, what is minority am I a minority because I'm a woman because Don't speak English, right? So I think That diversity it should be in different areas not only software because everybody should embrace the background it doesn't matter like sex orientation gender and In terms of software We are all consumers too, right? So if for example, one of the things Related with boys technologies the first boys devices didn't recognize the boys in women Or even worse, even if you are a male and not an English native speaker They were not able to recognize it. So at the end we are all consumers and why not we can be producers Why do you think it's hard to have a diverse thing? People Well, we're spending quite a lot of time right now and Investing in improving how inclusive we make our teams And it is really hard because even if you know the team everybody looks the same Like obviously everyone knows that, you know, there's so much more underneath the surface and people's personalities and their backgrounds That really do make people very unique and different people and that's really super important But then how we're actually able to you know work effectively together So people aren't you know hesitating about putting their ideas forward So people are able to kind of you know actually challenge each other and a kind of a constructive way to come up with the best solution But like, you know, I think people don't want to hurt each other's feelings I think people kind of don't know how to negotiate conflict Well, I don't think people know how to like make people feel included when they are the minority group as it were So like I think there's a lot of skills and just kind of like recognition of like, you know How like what are the areas that we do need to focus on to kind of improve how we create inclusive environments? But yeah, I think like I think it's I think it's really hard actually from from being in teams where there's been a you know Kind of a good measure like what you would kind of say is kind of gender diversity and racial diversity and You know diversity of kind of background and from being in teams where there's not like actually it's both hard It's hard So yeah, I think I think that's kind of that's what we're really trying to focus on is how we enabled that our teams to You know have conflict in a more constructive way to create like environments where people can you know Be who they want to be but you know aren't kind of holding themselves back because of you know They feel like they won't be heard or listened to Fair enough What do you think the world needs more of to reach gender equity? So I'm bringing back gender. The reason for that is that it's one that's actually quite visible It's easy to measure. Yes Yeah in whatever Diversity or or equality do you want to do is the first step is awareness. I think so in so many different areas, right? even What is the challenge right now? Why would you are trying to go to? Equal options and what's going on in other places that maybe we are really lucky to be here We have the possibility to be here, but in other places women are not here So all these kind of things being aware. I think is the first step about equality Yeah, I think it's just an acknowledgement acknowledgement as well. It's like okay We're I think many places are saying we're clearly not getting it right so we want to improve it But I think there's lots of other places that aren't saying we aren't like this is a problem for us So yeah, I think it's kind of like how you just feel like this is you know It's it's a product of you know the culture that we exist in just to a certain extent So and it's not the entire fault of a particular organization But I think it's how you it's how you take responsibility for it like all like as an organization I think is you know so important to improving the numbers overall because it's not just You know one company that's going to fix anything. It is cultural So it requires a cultural change Yeah, I think in general it would solve a lot of problems if we were to shift when Appropriate to longer-term thinking because I think short-term thinking is what makes you say Oh, okay. There is this person. I'm gonna hide which is exactly the same as everybody else So it's gonna work out but on the longer term more diverse teams yield better results and I mean Short-term thinking is also what has created the situation with the environment So I think long-term thinking is an important thing to adopt as a culture that it would solve so many more things than just the center cap So in that aspect of Diversity and inclusion, how do you find the overall community not just companies like the development community and even the Python community I Really happy in the moment that we are in terms of community and inclusion We In different communities also the community that I mean right now I'm basically I wouldn't be here in London without the community because the opportunity that I have to Start doing these and everything was first with from somebody with the community. So Communities has a responsibility even us to first of all create these spaces Offer opportunities, right and make visible whatever is happening right now in terms of Equality so Even if you're a community organizer or even if you are just going through an event Try to reach out somebody that maybe it looks different than you give a chance. I think that's really important Well the Python community I find is quite diverse if one looks at who is using Python because Python is used for example by academic people and I find it interesting to go to conferences because of the The variety of people you get to meet there What do you think Python's doing differently than like Well, I mean sometimes it just has to do with being at the right place at the right time But I think Python appeared With good timing and it's also easier to get started than C++ because you can just write some Python without compiling So it has a lower barrier to entry So I think it's easier for more people to get used to that I think we're doing well, but we can do better I mean if you look at the core Python developers, there are actually some women now, which is really exciting Five women. Okay, that's awesome. And I know the core desks are working on it But I think we can do better or if you look at the PSF board, which I'm a part of there's a lot of white people on the board So I think we we can do much better. So because I agree. We're doing well, but we can improve for sure It's good it's a work in progress. Yeah Okay Have an interesting question from the audience. I'll do it a bit So what do you believe like a young person would be good to know it would be good to hear if they were On the fence or just considering what they would do You mean in terms of technology? Yes, absolutely Because I I was always told are like don't do math don't do physics like you're good in languages You should do that because like honestly, I was always mediocre in math But I always really liked it because I like the problem-solving part English was just something that I could do It wasn't very challenging for me. I was just good at it It wasn't until my early 20s that I started learning Python and I realized oh, I can actually do it And it's really exciting. So I think every kid should at least try it and then if they're not interested That's fine, but I think don't self-select Yeah, I think like Something that happened to me a lot with young people is that when they see a career in tech Usually they think just we developers and or something else, but tech is has so many different profiles so many different types of Walk around this career path, right? So, yeah Tech is it can be mentoring. It can be a leader. You can work as a Consultant there are so many different types of profile that you can be around tech Even digital marketing, right? So, yeah, that's something that I will say Okay, I have one last question before we go to everyone else So I asked like what would you say to someone who's thinking of starting their career? but what do you think about someone who has stopped their career for a while and they would like to come back or Like it depends because sometimes it can be like maybe there are five years outside of the workplace and What do you think they would need to go back or to just stay I? Know and I don't think like there is an answer for it scientifically I'm just giving ideas here I can try answer this one because I was a manager for many years That's it's very much and I'm going back more to a hands-on role now And so it's it's been definitely a big change I think kind of just Embracing that you're going to be you know kind of learning a Crapload like for a long time and you're not going to be like you're what I want to talk and you're like Don't know And like that's that that can be quite hard kind of mentally to sort of to kind of like I have so much to learn But you know it's something that you have to kind of like be excited about and you know if this is a career that kind of you know that that You know that you're going to enjoy you enjoy solving problems of software and you know that's something that we all need to be doing We all need to be consistently learning. Yes coming back after a five-year gap You know you you have a lot to kind of to To start learning but everybody is learning all the time So I think it's kind of embracing the fact that it's fine You'll get there believe in yourself And find people who are also along the same journey right like find people who are kind of in a similar place So you can pump yourself up because we can you can pump each other up because I also think that's super important is to not feel isolated Make sense to me Hey, I'm gonna say if anyone else has questions to ask. Yes By the way, thank you all for sharing fantastic panels really really cool to see the intersectionality also of all your backgrounds So first of all, thank you So one of the things that I find when I have this dialogue with people about diversity equity inclusion diversity equity belonging whatever flavor you name it is People will say well, you know, it's not that bad or I've been at places where it's worse I find that answer utterly infuriating So I'm kind of curious when you're in those dialogues with people because it sounds like you all are Actively cut in some way putting yourself out there to think through these issues What are some ways that you respond to that or what are some ways that you kind of combat that that? Basically apathy right When people don't care if things don't change I Can add my two cents and then I will stop and I Think I think people get a little bit apathetic to this when they don't think it impacts them or like their product their team So I think it's trying to have trying to help them to understand how this does impact every team and it really does And a lot of times we get kind of people who will get super invigorated by it once it really impacts them Right, so once they have a daughter or they get married to somebody who's had you know bad experiences, right? So once it does impact them directly then they become kind of super Motivated to be very impactful in this so it's how can we you know kind of frame the discussion around? How this impacts everyone and it does like it impacts you too because you're not the same as everybody else And there's been moments in your life when you've been excluded And when you haven't kind of you know done what you could have done because you felt like you know You wouldn't have been listened to or whatever. So I think that's for me like what? Like it isn't is an important way to get people to really think more about how it makes a difference to them themselves Yeah, and Pathy Well honestly when somebody has the reaction you describe this person is giving me very useful information So I observe basically and if I want to create an initiative I would not reach out to them because it's good to to create initiatives with people that really have your back And also if there are still people that think like that. I think that we still need to work on that And I think it's the awareness part That's the important one like we live in a bubble for fine But we still need to kind of look outside and learn more from other people as well Hey, well, I'm not sure if that I have a question that's actually kind of targeted to Christine so you've mentioned that That you feel like you kind of live in a bubble here where you felt that you you didn't feel so much of an issue here within Bloomberg and as a person that has shaped the culture here in London because well Christine Was the engineer in London and she actually made this even happen because he was not gonna happen until you step up So thank you Christine and everyone should thank you But as a person that's shaping their culture in this in in in Bloomberg, London What would you tell to everyone that's here? That's from many different companies So they can take something to their company and make everyone feel as you kind of felt Yeah, and I guess like my my Response to kind of like how like gender kind of like being a female framed my experience leadership Was was really around the fact that I think we we as an organization have had loads of issues But Here we had so many that like we had so many very very good learning experiences and we grew a lot Yeah, well like it's true, right like any time something really horrible happens I think it is just like whoa, we really need to really learn from this and And I think because when I came over to London, we were just starting out our engineering office It was like 25 of us So we had to do loads of hiring loads of building teams and we pretty much made you know Every mistake in the book around kind of creating teams around promoting people around me a kind of like Just how we delivered our services. It was pretty awesome. So because of that like we had loads of challenges, but I but That's why I think probably the sort of the aspect of you know Kind of being a female wasn't just it like it wasn't something that was part of the the mix at that point But I think like when when we were trying to really change certain things around the culture here and I think really Really building Meaningful relationships with kind of our leaders in New York was incredibly important, right? So it's kind of it's understanding like who is shaping the culture overall And it's you know, really really caring about what you're doing. I guess that's the other thing So when we were speaking about and it wasn't just me it was kind of a number of us when we were speaking about the things That we wanted to do differently like we really cared We really cared about the products that we were that we were delivering the services We were delivering and we really had thought had been thoughtful because we had made all those mistakes About how to do things in in a different way, which we felt was going to yield better results So for us it was you know really have speaking from a point of caring And you know making sure that we were heard and you know, I think I think we're lucky in organization We have a very like Flat structure you can go and kind of talk we obviously have hierarchy But kind of you can go and talk to anybody basically so it was very open and accessible to kind of talk to different people and Yeah, I think you know That's really kind of what it was for me It was you know, it was very clear that I that I had First-hand experience that I really cared and I was trying to really focus to your point on Communicating things very straightforwardly right and you know communication is not a soft skill. It's very hard So I think you know really doing that in a you know, very good way was kind of instrumental to I think Getting the teams kind of working in a certain way here. I think that is all that we have a time for And we have a warm club for these amazing ladies