 So we're here at the ID TechX and hi, so who are you? My name is Laura Frisk. I'm the CEO of Trellig. Hi So Trellig here dot fee. Are you from Finland? Yes, we are from Finland and Hi, so who are you? Hi, my name is Sanalahokalio. I'm also working at Trellig. So What is what are you seeing here? So this is our small bending tester. So it's currently a testing PET film which have been printed with silver ink and then there is some leds connected to it using electrical conductive adhesive. So what we provide is the test service to analyze and test flexible and stretchable structures. It's very important to test, right? Yes, there's a lot of people here doing cool stuff But are they all testing as they should? I don't think so. No, you don't think so? No, and I think the reliability is also something everybody understands that it's very important But then when you start to talk about it, they say that yeah, we are developing this and you say that yeah We should consider reliability also. Yes, but we are going to do this first and then they finally have the perfect product and then they start to test and realize that there is something fundamentally Wrong in the product from reliability point of view and that can be extremely expensive and also time-consuming So it's good to start consider reliability as early as possible and also test it and kind of make sure that the structures you are using really can withstand the Conditions you are going to use them in. I can imagine some people are Engineers might be a little bit sad if you actually show them that there's an issue with their Product, right? Yes, but it's like a it's like a nightmare a little bit. No, it's not I'm joking, but it's not but it's not a nightmare if you get it done early. No, because then you can fix it I think it's a nightmare when you have everything finished and you are planning to you know Go to to the market with your excellent product and suddenly you realize that the reliability isn't there or worse If you have actually had the product you are selling the product and then you realize that the the reliability is not as it should Because that can be really catastrophic So that's why it's very important to test it as early as possible. So you design this? Yes, this has has been made by one of our Our workers we are actually this is our small one and then we have a bigger one which is valid a valid 80s at the Moment and that we can use also inside a test chamber so that we can control humidity For example use higher humidity levels or high temperature or combination of these with the mechanical testing So that will Accelerate the test and how do you test humidity? So humidity testing normally is we have a test chamber where we can control the humidity levels and then we can also control Temperature so we put some samples in normally we try to always measure something for example electrical conductivity or Something which we can measure in real time to see when the product fail or if it doesn't fail Does it behave as it should and then of course after testing we do fairly analysis and analyze what went wrong And how did it behave and so you do an analysis right this? Here's the stuff about what's what oh, can you show okay? Yeah, so this is for example This is a guide we did write about About reliability and why it's important why it's important to test as early as possible and what kind of things you need to take into consideration when you are Thinking about how to test and what to test and at what stage so it gives kind of basics of reliability And yeah, those are our test wires Kitty wires Mostly yes, because we can measure We can have hundreds of structures within inside our test chamber And then we measure all of those and analyze the data and so on is it Helsinki or no, it's Stamper So it's 200 kilometers north of Helsinki. It's better, right? Yeah, it's definitely We could get lots of snow during winter And what do you do? Well, I work mainly with materials so do material characterization and So are there lots of interesting materials going on in this industry What's the what's the hottest one? That's the most important to test right now. There's a silver nano What's it? Of course, no no things are very hip and pop and there are some reliability issues with those but I Guess when we regard this kind of things It's probably flexible structures flexible materials how to get for example adhesives flexible, but still reliable and Here the show do you have lots of people coming here and saying hey, I need this or what's going on? Conversations and people start to realize that you need to take reliability Liability seriously and not just, you know, consider it at some point and you need to do it properly Of course, there are no if we consider traditional electronics. We have more Standards and there are methods people have always used and even in those areas There has been a change that we get more and more tailor testing and more and more kind of you need to consider What's kind of test to use but Especially when we are talking about new structures new materials It is so important to really consider what you test at what conditions and how you do it to make sure that that your product is reliable and It can be quite quite a challenge. I have you into a ID tag actual This is our second time, but last year we didn't have our own So what do you think about the show? It's really nice. Last year it was brilliant and so far it has been really nice too And so people just ship you the stuff to Finland or you sell the machine to everywhere? No, we don't sell equipment So people send us what needs to be tested and then we discuss what shall be tested What kind of conditions and test methods we are going to use and also about what kind of for example failure analysis Methods we are going to use so how we are going to analyze what's going on in the test chamber Do you do stuff like flexible displays? You know those new flexible phones that are coming out and stuff like that. How do they test? Because it's not good if the phone just breaks and if you fold it ten times, right? We haven't done that, but there are so many things to consider when you have the full display I mean you are not just talking about mechanical robustness, but also about how for example how you use the Display so that will be a slightly different approach. Shouldn't you be testing all kinds of angles? Yes, and that is something no at the moment We don't and that is something we are developing at the moment so that we could do also for example twisting and other sorts of mechanical Stresses because that is extremely important to are you the market leader for this? I Don't really I think the market is just developing so I I don't know actually What's the situation in the market at the moment about bending testing? But of course if we consider reliability testing in general there are lots of lots of big companies doing that But many of them are specialized in them in the very for example auto industry and ruins the standard testing So we are specialized in testing new structures and structures which don't yet have for example standards and clear procedures so which one are you for example looking into right now? What's the new structure you you Targeting for us at the moment It's it's all kind of bending and especially as I was talking combination of stresses so combination of humidity because humidity goes into the if we have as here we have pd structure and Pt does not absorb a huge amount of moisture But it definitely does and it goes to the interfaces and it can destroy such a structure a lot quicker than just doing this At room temperature. So at the moment what we are looking at is the combination of different stresses and how that affects the The reliability and how that should be taken into account. So does all this industry a printer electronics all that does it work? I mean because you would be the ones to know right if it's all reliable and everything That's not a very good It's a bad question. Sorry. No, I know it works right, but I think it's gonna be bigger and bigger Yeah, and I think it will be It is one of the problems. We are we have for example, we have discussed about using Such structures printed structures for example in buildings where we are talking about tens of years of use Life and at the moment, I would say that the reliability isn't there So that will be one of the key issues if you want to for example integrate sensor structure into a building You need to be sure that it functions correctly and at the moment it's it's I wouldn't say that I would say that it's it's At least it's not proven a lot of a lot of this is maybe for cheap throwaway kind of things maybe yes Yes, and for that it works quite okay, but I think it's also people are more and more interested of using printed structures in more demanding environments and sensor structures for IOT to build networks of sensor structures and so on and For that we really need good reliability and quite often we also need good bendability and for wearables washability and all these are Still quite tricky to do and for many structures. It isn't yet quite there or it hasn't been analyzed enough to say that So you just get a few more customers and then you get all kinds of new designs for testing all kinds of new stuff, right? Are you already busy building new tests equipment and tests? Yeah, we are at the moment, but we of course do lots of test Standard testing too because that's also important It's not just bending testing, but it's also other other test conditions such as as we discussed humidity testing High humidity high temperature temperature cycling corrosion testing especially when you are dealing with something you wear We have salt we have other Impurities those need to be tested. So we are also working with lots of other methods and doing testing with those too And in the winter you can just put it outside see if it's still working when you bring it back, right? Yes, you can do that, but that's very controlled It depends a lot what kind of winter you can but that's that's done, too That's one of the tests So it is a relevant test methods. Although as I said, it's not very controlled. Thanks a lot. Thank you