 to the metal voice, you know first time on the show, Klaus Eykstad, the guitarist of Ugly Kid Joe. What's going on, buddy? Not much, just setting my volume here. I can hear you. Show us your Darth Vader mask. So, there it is. There it is. Look at that. The Ugly Kid. It's a Daft Punk-ish with the headphones. Yeah, the official Ugly Kid Joe Darth Vader mask. There it is. All right, good news. I wish we were affiliated with the Star Wars Enterprise. Throw a couple songs somewhere. That's even rad. Yeah, that would be cool. That is my favorite movie of all time, probably the original one. Same, I saw it when I was maybe 11 when it first came out and I didn't know what to expect. They just brought me to the theater and I was like, that was like changing. Oh, wow, that's cool. I think I knew a lot about it before I saw it, but there is that moment when that big ship comes by and you're like, what? It's just never been seen before. It changed my life. It's like eruption by Eddie. No one's heard this before and like, what the? And there it is. My mom and my older cousins brought me to Star Wars. I didn't know. I didn't know. I go a space movie, right? Right, right, sci-fi. What the heck is going on here? Like you said, it's great. Good news too, Sad Wings of Destiny, the new album by- Well, Rad Wings of Destiny. Rad. Come on, man. Wrong group. You already missed the joke completely. Rad Wings of Destiny, the new album that's gonna be released by Ugly Kid Joe out October 21st on Metalville. All right, I heard the album and I'm pretty impressed. You know, Klaus, this is like a mature... It's kind of like a contradiction to the album cover and the image of Ugly Kid Joe. However, a mature sort of sounding album. You want to tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, well, we are in our fifties for one. Two, I think, well, you mentioned the image of the imagery. Well, you know, that's kind of in our logo and it is our logo and it's been sort of our mascot, so to speak. So, we've always tried to keep that alive. Oh, wait, so you asked about the album? Yeah, it's just been kind of a three-year process. It started right before COVID and then COVID slowed everything down, what we started doing stuff remotely and then it all, as COVID ended, we got back together again a couple of times and finished it. Yeah, well, it's really cool that the influences are sort of pretty prevalent, I guess. And at the same time, it's still Ugly Kid Joe. I mean, you know, like that ain't living. ACDC, Brian Ott and Johnson. I mean, was that deliberate? Yes. Anytime we do anything that sounds a little like ACDC, it's like they're our favorite band of all time. So, I guess you'd have to say it's deliberate. I don't want to sound like them. Yeah, yeah, and what are other... I guess I should ask this question. If you were to define the sort of musical direction on this album for those out there who haven't heard it yet or haven't heard the songs, what would you say? I was trying to explain that the other day. It was like, well, it's a hard rock record for the most part. It's pretty diverse. There's got, there's some songs that are more moody, some that are more like just like you said, just very ACDC. Sorry, my bad. Sure. And then there's like, you know, some more where we're just kind of having fun in the studio, you know, doing a full acoustic, almost a country song with drinking and driving. It was more of like, that was just more like a little idea, you know, so it's a little more old school than, you know, it's not like new metal at all. It's more like hard rock, maybe going back to late 70s a little bit, even has a cover of Lola, which is... Yeah, that's a great song, right? Yeah, we love that song. And so, you know, it's got a little bit of sarcasm in it too, here and there. And it's got some serious stuff. So it's something for everybody, maybe, I don't know. It's kind of hard to explain. Now that I'm starting to think of all the songs, like, well, that song's really not at all like that one. So... Yeah, it's pretty diverse. There is a bit of country in there, you know, maybe even moody blues at one point, you know. Yeah, you know, there's influences from everywhere, but I think it does kind of go back to more like influence of like the late 70s, early 80s, maybe. Yeah, when I hear a song like Everything's Changing, you know, what a great tone on the guitar and sound, as well as what a great vocal line. You know, it could have been like a Bob Dylan song or a Cat Steven song. It's just, it's a song. It's a song song, right? It's not something you've never heard before, but it seems familiar. That's a Dave Fortman wrote that, and he's a really prolific songwriter. I mean, he's been a producer for the last 20-something years, and, you know, he's always written, he's always, you know, as much as people call him a producer, he's a writer, and so he always has songs that he writes, and he has kind of this outlet with us where he brings us these songs and we're like, damn, and Whit, thank God, is a great singer. He can really grasp onto any melody, and he's got great pitch, and he can just really do the, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and Kill the Pain, another sort of, you know, kind of reminds me of, I don't know, Ugly Kid Joe meets the moody blues. Okay. You know, it's got that sort of, I don't know, I want to call it epic, but kind of folk, but then it just kicks into gear, right? Into the Ugly Kid sound sort of, you guys aren't new metal anymore. That's what it's coming down to. No, I don't think we ever were, actually, because they, new metal kind of started after us. We were more like, I mean, we were influenced by bands like Scorpions and Judas Priest, ACDC band Halin, but also the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and that probably made it early on. We had a little bit of that funk metal thing. That was just what was really happening in Southern California at the time. But we kind of, we were into that for a while, but we stirred right back to kind of being more just a straight ahead hard rock heavy metal band, because that's really truly what we all are. And then when Dave joined in 92, he sort of brought the Southern Rock element in. And when Shannon joined, he got, we got a little more maybe new metal because we got into more heavy stuff. So, and then, you know, people have changed over the years and we've grown. And then, you know, the little elements start to change and new ones come in. I'll tell you, because on the press release, I didn't get who wrote what, you know, in the song credits. So that's kind of why I'm asking, you know, that, that's, you know, I'm not familiar, like who wrote which songs and who contributed what. But I could assume it was you and, you know, the band, right? I mean, more in most cases, right? It, you know, it's a lot of Dave and Whit this record. Like, there's a lot of Whit songs where Whit came in with the idea for maybe a riff. Like that he living, for instance, was him mouthing, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, you know, driving around in his car, like, oh, I think this would be rad. And then coming up to us and doing it and saying it, and we'd play it. And then, like I said, Dave's always been a prolific writer. He always has at least four or five songs that are like totally written that he'll send to us when we start talking about a record. And I'll do the same thing. I'll write four or five songs, send it in, and, you know, maybe one or two makes it, one or two, and then a few here. And then the next thing, you know, you're like trying new stuff in the studio. So everybody contributes for the most part. But this one was mainly Dave and Whit, were the head writers. Jimmy Kay here, Metal Voice. Look at this. The Metal Voice shirts are now on sale. Just go to the video description to find out on how you can purchase one. Metal! I mean, failure, the song failure, it's kind of like the verse is kind of Aussie-ish, sort of like that Aussie wine, but at the same time, it goes into AC-DC when you hit the chorus. So there's just all those elements of, you know, we all are familiar with in there. There's a moment too, because like I wrote the riff, let's say for the chorus for that. Weenie, weenie, weenie. And I was like thinking more like, in my brain, I just started, you know, playing, as you play guitar, you come up across little moments, you're like, ooh, and you grasp onto it and you play. And I was thinking, you shook me all night long, but, you know, I was like, oh, I want something really like orchestra, but real simple too. And so that was funny. You said Aussie, of course Aussie and AC-DC would be if you had to narrow it down to the biggest influences on the band. And that was probably two of the top four right there. So I'm glad that you actually even said those names. Well, maybe I'm old enough to sort of understand that, you know, the different eras and we're almost the same age. So we grew up at the same eras and times, music. So I could hear all these things. Okay, let's go back in time, because I have a few questions from the history of Ugly Kitchen. You come out, I guess you have a demo and from the demo, you get record companies knocking on your door or you're knocking on their door. How did that happen? We were playing in Santa Barbara area, like club, from Isla Vista, which is basically Santa Barbara area, playing keg parties, playing local clubs, sometimes going to LA and playing a show or Ventura. And we had a guy in town, he was a DJ, that's right. Willoughby, he was a DJ at a local station. He really liked the band, so he sort of helped, you know, whatever. The band itself did the demo ourselves with an old friend, Eric Valentine, that we grew up with in high school, who ended up becoming a really popular, a very successful producer, Queens of Stone Age and a bunch of other bands. Third Eye Blind was his first big hit record. But anyway, we grew up with this guy, we knew this guy was the genius. And so when we wanted to do a demo, we got some money together and we went back to Palo Alto where we grew up, had him do the demo, did the demo. This guy, Willoughby, the local guy in Santa Barbara, basically tried to shop the demo and he found a guy named Dennis Ryder, who was an entertainment lawyer in LA. I have no idea how they met or why, but he was just this guy. I showed him the demo, he wants to see you guys. We did a showcase for him and he's like, I'm gonna get you guys some, I'm gonna bring some record company people out. And we were like, okay, whatever, we don't know if this guy's for real or not. I mean, he drives a BMW, it has a phone in it. So, but we're like, he's probably totally awesome, but who knows, you know, we're like, I heard everybody in Hollywood's full of shit. So we were very skeptical, but sure enough, we do a show in Santa Barbara and the guy comes after the show, his name's Bob Skorow and he's like, I'm A&R from Mercury Records and I wanna sign you guys. And we're all kind of like sitting back there, like all sweaty and we're like, oh, wow, this is kind of the moment. This is what you dream of and it's happening. But of course, then he walks, it goes home and we're like, now is it really gonna happen though? And it did. All right, so from the demo comes the EP, right? And now this, you know, everything about you. I don't remember if it was the EP, the video from the EP of everything about you or was it from the album that you made that you got the traction or was it just the song itself at that time? The EP, the version of the EP was the single that was released. And- With the video? Yeah, you know what, honestly, I don't even remember exactly how and when. I know that we actually did a video for Mad Man and I believe what started happening was there was airplay because it was kind of released on an independent version of Mercury's label because they had this plan, I guess, the plan was to do an EP, get us on tour, and then when we were, you know, have a little bit of a name, then go and make a real record. You know, the EP we did in six days, I think, and super low budget. But then they realized, it's one of those moments where I remember the A&R Bobby Carleton who was the kind of working with us, really great guy. He kind of walked in one day and he said something like, stop, just let's just stop right now. We gotta run with this song. We gotta hit on our hands. We can't just be like, oh, you know, we'll make the record later. And I don't know if he pushed or who put the label. There was something going on. And later I found out when we were touring, we were touring in the van, actually in Winnebago, the first leg, no one was showing up to the shows and slowly but surely we got a tour with Scatterbrain and somewhere during that tour, you know, I was probably right. What I'm trying to say is that that song was, it sort of, it was such a huge, dedication song, sorry. It was like, you know how you call on the radio stations back in the day and you saw, I'd like to dedicate this song and they'd have a certain time. Requested song. Request, sorry. And it had like a total request type thing on all the radio stations and that's, the moment it hit me was when we went to a radio station to do an interview and the one dude was like, hey, come here, I wanna show you something. Pretty cool. And he had like a book, like a log book type of thing where they, when they suddenly get a phone call, they write down and they check what of the 40 songs they're playing or whatever number they check a little thing that we got a request for this. We got a request when he showed me the book and then he showed me there's everything about you and he literally had to like open the page and open it again. He had it like, it went across into the back pages like by like two pages more than any other song. You know, this is the most requested song we've ever had. And we were like, wow, we really hit a chord with this hate song. That's kind of fucked up, but we'll take it, you know? It's kind of like when you're watching your team and that you're playing terrible the whole time and all of a sudden there's a block punt and run back for a touchdown, you're like, we'll take it. You know, it wins a win. And so we, it just happened really fast actually, but also really unexpected to the point where they were like, we better make a video. We better make this officially a single. And that's what we sort of did. We did it all real fast, you know, like two days video done and keep touring. And, you know, you start, you play a show in front of three people in Portland and by the time you're in St. Louis, there's 800 people lined up around the block, which, you know, for us was a lot of people. Yeah. And it all happened in like a six week period. So how did your transition from the EP to the album, right? Cause you're using, you know, everything about you, everything about you on the album. And I bought this probably when it came out on CD, right? Thank you. You're welcome. And what, like, how do you transition? So, you know, you have, did you rate the songs? Did you have the song? We had a panic mode. No, no, we, we, cause we knew we were gonna actually be doing a record eventually with the label on Mercury, not just on the subsidiary. And so we had about half that record that we were playing on our live set along with the songs in the EP. And then there was a little bit of that panic because we got the Aussie tour. Another really great moment. No more tears? Is that what it was? No more tours? Yeah, no more beers. No more beers. Yeah, go ahead. That was, that was. That was the potential album name. Is that what it was? I know, why did we ever do that? Okay. Next album. Yeah, we got that tour, but we didn't, we were like, wait, when's that tour? They're like, it's in the summer. So you don't need to go make a record now. And so we really had a small, like a two, six week window about to make the record. And then we didn't even finish it in time. And so we started shows with Aussie and Whitney and I were flying back after every show back to LA to record. It was kind of in a way, I mean, I thought it sucked because I was like, I want to enjoy this tour. I want to tour with Aussie and be present. I don't want to be worrying about the song and these lyrics, but you know, you do what you have to do. And, you know. Welcome to the music world. That's what it is. Exactly, it's not even about, it's all about timing and you got all these things you got to do and all of a sudden it's kind of a bummer because you kind of go, oh man, like I want to do a record, do a record, concentrate on it and then go on tour and play it. But we were doing it at the same time, but I mean, that's the price you got to pay and not to do an Aussie tour. You know, we're not going to say no because we were actually like, God, we even could be able to do this because we're making a record. Strike when the iron's hot. I mean, that's just business, right? That's just, yeah. And so, and to, you know, an Aussie tour is like to us growing up, that was literally like, we called him Uncle Aussie because I heard someone like from the Motley Crew calling that because he was the dude that took out the new metal bands and all my favorite bands open for Aussie at some time early in the career. So to get to have that honor was just, that was just that. It was like- Was he like snorting ants on tour or- No, we didn't get that version of him. He was actually totally sober. That's what we called the No More Beers tour. He was boxing every day before the show. He had like a little, not a little, but you know, the boxing, whatever that thing is called, it hangs and beat on- The boxing thing. I gotcha. Yeah, the boxing thing. And he had that in the backstage area and he'd be boxing, he'd be all sweaty, but I'm like, man, that's pretty rad. And then in fact that tour, we joked it was a No More Beers tour, but you know, Zach drank and he drank with us and we drank beers and that was the thing. And we drank on our bus, but one day, because there was no alcohol backstage and one day we showed backstage and there's a case of Budweiser saying, says, love Ozzy on it. And we're like, like someone was like, yeah, he was like, realized you're a young band. This is your first big arena tour, like have fun and here's some fucking beer and do what you do. Cause, you know, it was kind of cute cause it's almost like Ozzy's like, I don't want him not to have fun because I got to be sober. Not that I heard him say that, but you know, I wonder if he thought that like, give him some goddamn beer. Was the everything you expected, you know? Like as a person or as an artist, you know, or you didn't get to meet and mingle with him too much. He is the real deal. You know, he would, he threw stink bombs in our dressing room. He was super nice, funny, also very elusive. Like there he is, pops around the corner and you know, he's on, he wasn't quite, he was still kind of a mythical being to us even during and after the tour, even though we saw him a few times, met him, took a few pictures. He was still a little bit like that's Ozzy. Zach became our friend and was on the bus with us, hanging out and doing shows on days off and whatever, but Ozzy was still kind of Ozzy. Yet at the same time, very down to earth, very funny and very nice. Yeah, he seems like a very funny person. Everybody's ever, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody I ever talked to that met him. They said he was a super nice and kind person. Yeah. He said that's how he comes across. All right, so then you, you're in the record. You're doing this record now and a God damn devil, uh-oh, bring in Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Was that like, like just like that? Or it was Mark Dodson, the guy who produced that album and our last record had done some Priest records. In fact, that's literally probably the moment where like we want that guy, because Priest is, I mean, Rob Halford is basically Witt's hero vocally. And of course we were all huge Judas Priest fans. I mean, I think British Steel and Scream for Vengeance are two of the greatest hard rock metal albums ever made, in my opinion. And so when he mentioned that he's friends with Rob and that he's gonna invite him down to say hi, because he knew we were such huge fans, we were like, awesome. And then Mark, I think kind of had it planned out where I'm gonna ask him to sing on this song. And so he played him the track and we were sitting in the studio with Rob Halford listening to Goddamn Devil. And his remark when the song ended was, I like the lyrics. And we were like, all right. And just everybody knows Rob wasn't in Judas Priest at the time. Yeah, that's right. He must have been right. He was doing his solo work, right? Or working with other people. Right. So he wasn't in Priest. I guess fight I think is what he was doing, right around there. It probably was, it probably was. Yeah, or starting it or something. So he said that and Mark said, hey, mate, because they had know each other, total old school English background and would you like to sing on it? And he's like, sure. And you know, the guys just gets in the booth from the mic and you know, we played that we rolled the course a few times and he just started going for it. And he got it like on the, I'd say probably what's on the record was the second take. And then he even did that thing at the end where he started just ad-libbing. And I think that was like again, probably the second take. And we're like, you're done. Perfect. Strange enough, when I heard this album back in, what is it, 92, I didn't even realize it was Rob Halford until I actually, you know, kind of looked in. Right. At first I didn't notice when I was listening to the album, just, just musically, right? I didn't look at the liner notes or anything. I didn't know it was him. So, but it sounded like him. I go, what the hell's going on here? So yeah, cool take. Have you met up with Rob over the years? We actually just saw him in September. We played with Judas Priest. We hadn't played the U.S. in a long time. I think we played early in 2012 a few times. And then we played in September in Virginia Beach. We opened up for Judas Priest. Someone had canceled their opening band and we got the call and we went, yes. And it was right towards the kind of the end of COVID. So it was super stressful because we didn't all, you know, we're taking tests. We're all making sure we're vaccinated. We're like nervous about flying. But anyway, but again, it was one of those things like, it's fucking Judas Priest. Like we got to do this. It's one of the, you know, like I said. Did he remember you guys? Oh yeah, he's been, Witt and him have been in touch on and off over the years. He, I'm trying to think, he came out actually and sang with us way back in like 93 when we played in Arizona and Phoenix. He came on stage and actually did Goddamn Devil with us. So we've had history with him over the years. He's always been super nice and kind of the band. Super nice guy, yeah. And when we played with them in Virginia, it was super locked down, no backstage guests. And you know, everybody's masked and paranoid kind of staying in their zone. And so we didn't even bother like, let's go and say hi. And all of a sudden Rob just comes to our dressing room. He doesn't come in, but he's like, hi guys, how are you? It's great to have you and all that. We took pictures, you know, we were all kind of masked and like for a second we were like, okay, let's take him off, I have to do it. You know, and you know, it was really cool that he actually made that effort to come say hi and thank us and of course we thanked him. Yeah, again, another legend of the old guard, I guess you could say of heavy metal that has been super nice, kind and gracious to us. And you know, even saying on our record, let alone, you know, let us open force band. How did you get Julia Sweeney on the album? Oh, we were. Just on sort of like the intro for those of you who don't know Saturday Night Live Pats, right? Julia Sweeney at the time, right? Oh man, again, another weird like random thing because that character just killed us. That was so funny, the Pat character and just her whole thing, all the things she did. And this dude that we would literally just hang out with in Santa Barbara, I think he was a student at UCSB, this funny dude, sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was like, we were hanging out at friends house. This is all we were all like staying on people's couches or we had like crappy apartments and we all kind of had this one house that we'd hang out at because they had a Gallagher machine. And I remember just, you know, whatever, drinking beers, watching football, whatever it may be, this dude's hanging out, like surfer dude, he's like, we were laughing, we were like doing the, maybe we was talking about her or that character SNL the night before something. Yeah, that thing. And he, he's all of a sudden, he's like, that's my aunt or something, he was like really closely related. And we're like, shut up, Julia Sweeney's like, yeah. She, you know, either she's married to my brother or she's married to my uncle or whatever. And we're like, no shit. And so we're like, ask her if she'll, I don't know what, you know, that's how we were back then. We'd be like, just really, cause we're going to, I don't know what, just some moment we're like, do you think she'd ever do anything with us? Cause we're huge fans of comedy, obviously. And I think that's how we got her name. I don't remember that, but I'm pretty sure it started that way. And the next thing, you know, we, we asked, oh, maybe she could do some overdub. It was, yeah, we were doing America's Least Wanted. So we already had kind of a hit. So we already known, and we also known for a little bit of the humor thing cause of everything about you. So he had asked her and she was like, totally 100%. Yes, I'd love to. Where do I need to be? So we said, come by a Devonshire Studios at like noon on Monday or whatever. And she, cause she lived in LA. And so she's like, fine, I'll be there. And this is the best part, she shows up. And we just were thinking her doing, you know, of like a little, cause we were, you know, we were releasing a record, but yeah, we're putting an old song on it. And because the record wanted to, you know, sell more records, so let's put the hit on there and put new songs and whatever, but let's do something different. So we, anyway, so we had her come and we were just thinking about ideas. But the funny thing is she shows up and she brings her whole Pat wardrobe. She wasn't quite sure. You know, she's probably a very professional and she's like, she knows this character is a hit. So she's like, oh, they want me to do something. I'm not sure what it is, but I'll bring it just in case it's a video thing. So she brought like the, we're like, what is that? She's like, oh, I didn't know if it was a thing or what, so I just brought it. But then it kind of like was like being in our minds like, oh, shit, we got to have her in a video. So when we did the video a little while later, I mean, she was super nice. Her and her husband were like the nicest people ever. And, you know, it was just one of those, again, one of those moments you're like, you didn't even feel like you were asking too much but I say, hey, would you maybe do a video with us? She's like, of course. And then she ended up in the neighbor video and kind of had a big part in it. And this time she got to use the brand funny, weird outfits. Yeah, she was pretty funny. It's all good. So the album becomes a hit, right? Yeah. I mean, Cats in the Cradle just explodes and now you're probably on even AM radio at that point, I guess, you know, it's just, I mean, what was it like? What did you feel like? It was surreal? Like you're saying, wait a second, what the hell are we doing here? Like suddenly this album's taken off and I don't know. Well, I mean, as fast as it sounds, the way I'm kind of explaining it, it is every single day in between of little incremental moments that you start to get, maybe not used to it, but you start to realize it, the reality of it, like, oh, okay, we have a hit. Oh, people have heard this. Oh, you know, you hear it on the radio and you start to, you see it on TV and you start to kind of not get used to it but you start to adjust to it, I guess is the best way to say it. And so, you know, you are floored at moments. You know, the first time you hear it on the radio, you're kind of floored. The first time, you know, you play in front of 10,000 people opening for Ozzy, you're kind of blown away. And, but all the other things, you know, it's slow but sure. And you start to kind of, I guess then they're like, oh, shit, now we gotta like follow this up. And cause, you know, we, you know, it's admitted we went like that and then we slowly went like that. So we peaked very at a very early stage of the band's life, I guess. And sometimes that's, you know, not as a double-edged sword in a sense because you're like, how are we gonna recreate that kind of success? You know, it was like, like a bomb. Cause you didn't build that foundation. Right, right. And the bands that take years and 10 years, even like Judas Priest, right? It took years to build it. So you can't really fall too far down because you've built that solid foundation. Right, you're used to it, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, so in a way we're like, oh man. And then, and then it did happen. We did started going down. But I think one thing we always knew was at that moment was like, this is a rare thing. Like we didn't expect it, the record company didn't expect it. So we were like, I think at least somewhat down to earth about the fact that this was a kind of a flu. And, you know, that's, we can't expect all our records to be this successful. And in honesty, like when we're doing America's The Wanda we didn't really know if we had a hit or not. And we didn't think, you know, Cats was a last minute addition. It was a song we used to cover live. We didn't ever plan on it being a single. And it wasn't until the radio started playing it. So, you know, we were like, we wanted a neighbor to be a big single. And it did great on MTV, but I mean, it was never a radio hit, like everything about you. And, you know, we wanted songs like Goddamn Devil to be the hits, but it didn't happen, you know? And two times we were very surprised by the song that, boom. And again, you don't, it's just like that interception run back for a touchdown. We'll take it. If it's going to get us more gigs, you know, and prolong our life. And, you know, and my wife who doesn't listen to hard rock and my wife who doesn't listen to hard rock and heavy metal, like Cats in the Cradle, it appealed to her because there was, you know, it was another level of, you know, another group of people who would, who got turned on to the band because of that, right? So it was great, you know? And, okay, all right. So you have all the success. You're touring with Ozzy. All your dreams are being fulfilled. And then, you know, you start, okay, we've got to follow this up with menace to sobriety, sorry. What was that experience like? Was it kind of the cracks beginning to show at this point? Yeah, I think so, but there was definitely, you know, we knew there started to be some tension with the record company. Our drummer had quit, but it was not like a bad scene. He's a great guy. We love Mark. And we started looking for a new drummer and that became really tedious. But luckily we found Shannon Larkin who is incredible and he's a very, I would say a very heavy metal drummer. I mean, the guy is insane. And I think we had kind of this dream of making a really like a Judas Priest record. And that's what we did. And of course, there was no hits on it, but we had a lot of fun making it. I should say, I will say it was a lot of riffing and a lot of slamming drums and a lot of riffing. And that's what we love. And then we released it. It actually did pretty good in Europe. And we toured Europe and we did pretty well there. Milkman's son was there. That's a great song. Yeah, yeah. Dave Fortman. That was like one of the first sort of Fortman Southern rock, I would say more or less songs in the repertoire. And well, actually he had a few, a couple on America's this one as well. But so we toured and we toured Van Halen and Bon Jovi. Another moment, I mean, Eddie Van Halen, Mai and Dave's absolute idol period. And so that was really cool. So we rode that wave pretty fun in Europe with the menace of sobriety. And we did a full metal record. And we knew Kirk Hammett from way back because a friend of ours dated him in high school. So we'd known him for a long, we're from the Bay Area. And I remember him calling me and being like, you guys made like a thrash metal record. And I thought we kind of did. He just kind of laughed. Because he was always like, he's like the first guy that when I first said to him about when things were happening for us. And we saw him in Spain or something. He's like that kind of what you and I were just talking about how we made it really fast where a lot of bands had to build like a Metallica had to build years of, you know, a foundation. He used to joke. He's like, you're doing a lot better than we were at the beginning. Like you're already here. Like you're already here in Paris, you know, we were like hitting the clubs in the US for a long time before we got through the rad shit. But, you know, so those kind of moments like, yeah, we are, you know, like, you know, we shouldn't take it for granted and we try not to, you know. Yeah. Well, I mean, okay. So, you know, menace to sobriety. And then I guess it didn't help that grunge and you know, was sort of taken off and labels are sort of dropping bands. I'm sure that adds tension, right? Because now the population was wanting this where your band and many other bands were playing this. And then the labels getting scared and just dropping band after band. This is the story of almost every metal band I talked to right in these years and not alone. So that's bad timing. We're talking about good timing. Right, right. Now we're into bad timing, right? So the band, I guess, eventually breaks up after what? After Motel, California, is that when it was? Like right after that, we were talking about doing a next record after that. We had a deal on the table and I just felt that we, none of us was really that enthusiastic about it is to put it simply. It wasn't like, yay, let's do it. It was more like, I guess we could do it, you know? And you know, this would have been our third label at this point. So we just kind of, it was a pretty mellow breakup. It wasn't a fight. It wasn't a huge, you know, cry fest. It was just, you know what? I think maybe it's time we all do something else and we all sort of nodded our heads and we're like, you know, we talked about it for a while and you know, we were all stayed for, I mean, it's like the next day, what are you doing for Monday Night Football? You know, it was like, yeah, come over. We'll barbecue. Check, look at this new band I'm thinking about joining or check out this demo I'm doing with so-and-so, you know, that kind of thing. And then we did that for like, what, 10, 12, 13 years we were doing other things. I should have asked you, when you were touring with Van Halen, did you have access to Eddie Van Halen? Did he hang out with everybody? We had, Bon Jovi was, this was 1995 and that was kind of, we were talking about that era where from 1995 where a lot of bands were getting dropped, the bands that were, you know, owned the arenas were now playing theaters and sometimes clubs. Bon Jovi was a lot less popular in the US. We went to England, we got the gig, he was on the label, was he still a label? Yeah, yeah, we were still in Mercury. We go to England to open for Bon Jovi and Van Halen and we were even like, wait, Van Halen's opening from Bon Jovi? Well, duh, you know, it goes down to record sales. But, you know, Van Halen to us is like the legends, right? For sure. And so we go there and we're like, wait, we're playing Wembley for three nights? Like, wait, I guess this thing, like this is something's going on over in Europe. It's different over there. And Bon Jovi, at that time, broke the record for attendance at Wembley Stadium at that time in like 1995. So it was you, Van Halen and Bon Jovi? Or was that Bill? Yeah, and little Stephen was on the Bill too, like in between us and Van Halen, I think. And I think he wasn't, there was another band, I think Thunder, which we ended up playing for last summer, was on there too. And so it rotated a little bit, but it was amazing. You know, we thought, like we talked about like how bands like Bon Jovi and Van Halen's, they kind of had that, you know, and of course all the other bands. Foundation? Yeah, but they also had that drop in sales in those grunge days. And we go to Europe and we're like, holy crap, there's 80,000 people loving this shit. And it was really cool to see that, you know, it's not just, it depends on where you go as well. And it was a really fun tour, but back to the question about Eddie, because obviously Bon Jovi's the headliner, and then, you know, you're playing a read us, so there's a lot of dressing room areas and stuff. So our dressing room is right next to Van Halen's. And every day we play the show, Eddie would come into our dressing room, maybe three minutes after we were done playing, maybe five, and just with his guitar warming up, you know, those fingers that I idolize and Dave, we're just getting ready. Yeah, the two hands, getting ready and asking us how was the show? How was the crowd? Da, da, da, da. And this was like his routine every single show for, I don't know, nine, 10. I don't remember how many shows it was. I mean, the guy that was just so down to earth, I mean, just for the record, he wasn't drinking at the time. He was always having a non-alcoholic Heineken. Super nice, super humble, super like easy to just talk to. We would even make fun of him and he would make fun of us. He once said to me, it was weird, one day he walked in, we were literally wearing the same outfit just by chance, but I had played first. So I had worn the first one. Stripes, stripes, no. No, no, it was just black shorts and an orange t-shirt for some reason. It wasn't Halloween or anything, it was just, that's what I was wearing. He walked in and I looked at him and I'm like, I kind of looked at my, you know, I had worn it first on stage, so I said something like, what are you doing ripping off my outfit or something? And he's like, yeah, soon I'll be stealing all your licks. And I said to him, you'll just be stealing them all back. And I was like, my little Eddie moment that I just loved because he kind of looked at me and smiled. And he's like, oh, I know, he didn't say that, but in his head he's like, yeah, I know who I influenced, I see it every day. And, but he was so humble and nice about it. That's what I mean. He never like, he just, everything was fun and, you know, joking around and, you know. Well, it's great to have those memories, you know, especially since the passing of Eddie, it's been two years now, right? And you got to meet him and hang out with him and that's, that's amazing. It's great. And like I said, he couldn't have been more kind and generous and just easy to hang out with. I mean, it was like just a dude from California. Cool, very cool. Just chronology. So we did do the EP before that, stairway to hell. Stairway to hell, yeah. Yeah. Before that. You open for guns. I hope one for guns. Did you open for guns? Oh yeah, guns roses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of, of, of, of. Did you, did they let you talk to Axl? Here's the thing, we, we play with him in Israel of all places, one off, flew there, big festival. After the show, they were super, I mean, we were treated really well there and the record, sorry, the promoter people and stuff were like, hey, you know, you're staying at this hotel. And after the concert, there's this really nice fun bar that the guys say he's opening it up to, it's like a post, kind of like a after show thing. And we all went and it was really fun. We were just talking and there's fans. There's also just other bands, you know, it was like three bands played a couple of the guys from the other bands and stuff. And, and I'm looking and I'm like, wait, that's Axl Rose. Just sitting on the bar, talking to Cordell, our bass player and just like just some dude at the bar. So I'm like, oh, I guess he does go out and talk to people. So I just went for it. I was like, this is my chance. So I went and sat next to him and reached myself. He was totally nice. We had a shot at Tequila together. He thought that we were the Bloodhound gang for a second. Oh, okay, good. Well, all right. Cause he was like, ah, you got, he's like, oh, see, when they said, look at Joe, I somehow thought you were the band that did that. He's nice, but not very attentive, we'll say. Well, no, he was, I get what he's saying cause he was like, I knew you were a band from like the nineties that had this hit that was kind of funny. That's what he was thinking in his head. He's like, I thought you were a band that did, what was that song? Do it like you do it on Discovery Channel about the animal. He did a lot of those types of songs. Okay, I only knew that one. So I was like, oh, I see. You confused us with that song in particular, which I can understand you. I'm just gonna make sure that this, my computer doesn't die. It's okay. But yeah, no, again, you know, we've all heard all the stories, haven't we? About everybody, about all the big, super duper rock stars, particularly him, that maybe weren't the most flattering stories. Well, I guess we don't know what it's like to be in people's shoes either. It's probably one of the most famous people on the earth, right? Right, especially at that time. And it's like polarizing all that. Yeah, so what I'm just saying is like, I just thought he was totally nice and cool and funny. And he was, it was, you know, there was nothing about him that made me feel in any way uncomfortable or that he was an asshole. He just, yeah, or timid. He was just like, he'd laugh. He said, I thought you guys were that fan. Sorry about that. I totally get it. You remembered one song, you whatever, had a shot, nice to meet you. And then as we're walking out, he's got his sunglasses up on his head. And, you know, he's Axl Rose and, you know, it's a bar, it's at night. It's four in the morning or whatever. And at five, the sun starts to come up and the guy faces his bars closed. So we all start heading out and there's Axl and he's like, he has his glasses. He's like, and people make fun of me for wearing sunglasses at night. Who's laughing now? And he just, we're like, there you go. All right, so stay away to hell. That he becomes out. You guys, you're getting back some momentum, right? Is that it? Yeah, that was us. We got back together. A few calls were made. Let's do it. Dave's this great producer. He's got a studio. Let's just go in there and do it. We dug through all our demos, found some old songs, some new and recorded it. And we recorded like 10, 12 songs. Just we ended up with five or six. And we, you know, Whit just, I was like, I'll do a record. I don't know if I can even tour anymore. Like, I don't even know if I was like, the time I think it was 43 or something. And I was like, I don't know. Like if I want to do that, you know, especially in bands and stuff and clubs, that's like gnarly. And it was like, oh man, we got to do, we got it. So he just started calling people in Europe. We figured we'd start in Europe just because that's the last place we kind of did good. We were like, you might be able to restart it over there. And sure enough, we got like that Axl Rose gig was part of that first year of kind of doing some gigs. And you know what, it's tough because you guys started off up here, you know, you're hoping for Ozzy or you're there. There's a sort of, and you just mentioned it, you know, there's a sort of comfort right touring the arenas, the space. The catering. The catering, the friendliness of people. But then when you go back to clubs and I see this all the time, it's rough, man. It's rough. And not to say people shouldn't do it, I'm just saying it's rough. It's a rough life. Now, suddenly you're getting, you know, four guys crammed in a little room before the gig. You know, the green room is like a no room, you know? And the driving and the accommodations are the same. It's like, how old is that? You know, how old is that baloney that's supposed to be our summer for tonight? You know, like, yeah. Again, you know, so I guess it's a, it's a humbling experience, I guess, right? Yeah, it is. The thing is one thing about this band, even in the full, even at the peak of our success, we never, on our own, in the U.S., played anything bigger than a big club. We never did theaters. That's great. So we were used to it and we've always been used to it. I'm sure we do arena tours with other bands, but when we back on the road on our own, we would play clubs. We were completely used to that. In fact, the clubs have gotten a lot nicer in Europe than they used to be. Like now there's always a shower, at least one. Half the clubs have a washing machine to do your laundry and they've gotten a lot better with catering and stuff. I don't know how it is in the States because we haven't done a club tour yet. Well, I'm in Canada, but yeah, it's gotten a lot better too. Yeah. Yeah, it was, I was actually- Wanna knock it? Yeah, I mean, we used to, I mean, gosh, in the early nineties, we'd play clubs that, you know, no doors on the stalls ever. No toilet seats half the time. I don't know what that's all about. I don't even have no clue. I think the seats, is they don't want people doing drugs in the fucking bathrooms, right? Like it was like, there's no privacy. No stall doors. You're the head like, yeah, there's something, no stall doors. So we're like, you know, you get the four shows jitters and you gotta go. And you're like, I gotta go to the bathroom with no stall door. And there's literally 600 people that came to see my fucking band that, they'll meet and we would have a thing where we would take, we would take beguards for each other at the door, just because you gotta have some privacy. It'd be like five minutes before showtime. We'd run to the bathroom. Okay, I'll wait at the door. Hey, dude, yeah, high five, high five. And like, he's taking a shit. Like just, okay, right on. Woo. It's really embarrassing. And it's nice to know that almost all clubs now have a bathroom backstage and even a shower. To know a little bit of renovations happening. Yeah. And it's more than they used to be. That was a little too much for them. Now we're there, right? Now we're going five years after, you know, the EP and things. And that's what I'm saying. Like that sort of sound, that maturity, sort of moving into the new album. I mean, is that a correct statement? You know what that would be because I don't know if the word's maturity, but it's like, yeah, a lot of the music is newer. I mean, even the EP had some old songs that would have been on, let's say, I mean, we're like old ideas. So that one probably had a little more old, like Joe, and then the last two have been more of us now writing is, I think would be the difference. And I think one thing that has happened, I guess it's maybe hard to tell really, but Witt has been in so many bands now since the first chunk or whatever. I mean, I would count at least five and different styles that he's saying, mostly rock, always rock, but still different characters, I guess you could say. So now it's just, here's some songs. Try it, we can just try anything. And the ones that is, it works, it works. And so there's a little more diversity, I think, vocally than there ever was now. I would agree with that. I would agree with that. The band that was here with Witt singing, this is a completely more professionally sounding vocalist and more diverse. I mean, the years have been good to him in expanding his vocal abilities where some bands, it's the opposite, right? It's like, it's been interesting. Yeah, and that's pretty cool because he's actually gotten to be better as a singer over the years. And he's 454, so he's, and he can still like do a two hour set. I mean, we try not to do that, it's a little bit long, but every now and then we'll do like a solid hour 45 and he'll sing the whole thing. And he's usually the one that's like, let's do another song. What covers do we know? My fingers are, my fingers are at stop now. Yeah, it's like, no, but all right, fine. So yeah, it's kind of, it's actually pretty mind boggling that because I can only imagine he screams a lot. You don't even hear it on the records like live. He screams more than he does on the records. He'll add stuff, you know? And, you know, like again, Rob Halper, huge hero, you know, that stuff, like that was always just, that's like him doing a lead, you know? That's like me going with one note and just getting that just perfect sustain. And it's fun. It's fun for him. And so, you know, he gets in the zone sometimes where he just wants to play all night. And it's kind of beautiful to see, honestly. All right, so you guys, I guess there's the tour in Europe or the UK? Maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, coming up. Yeah. Okay, so you're going back to UK, right? Geez, yeah, like. Back to the Wembley. Yeah, yeah. All clubs, but we're playing with a band called Massive Wagons. So it's going to be like a co-headlining tour, I guess you'd call it. And we're playing probably bigger size clubs, small theaters maybe, something like that is what, I guess it's from what I see on the list. And yeah, we're going back. North America? We're just, there's talk about it for early, or earlier part of next year. Okay. Yeah. North America. All right, it's cool. I think it's been a while, at least. Well, we did, like I said, we played September with Priest last year, one show. And then we did three shows in like 2013, I think. Kind of random, again, all fly-ins, like one was in Wisconsin, one was in, I think Kansas City and one was in, shit, where was the other one? I don't know. Here's actually an interesting question. You know, was so much success on the EP and so much success in the first album and even the second album? Were you at a point where the record company, like, did you get paid? Were you one of those bands? Like I talk to bands all the time and it's always those big hit albums at the start that they never got as much as they should have gotten. And again, you don't have to disclose this if you don't want. I'm just asking from a curiosities perspective. Since you had so much success with the EP, I would think that you had a better contract because you had more leverage versus other bands who are begging to have a record contract and would sign anything. Well, that's, I remember, I didn't, I don't know shit about business, but I remember when they were trying to explain to us what this contract is, it's literally like you get paid more with each record you make after. So you start, it's almost like a rookie contract and you don't make that much on the first. The EP was kind of fucked up because they were selling it for what, $5.99, but the stores were selling it for $14 when it became a top 10 selling product, I guess you could say. Yet we weren't seeing that other $7 or $8 at all. I mean, we're seeing pennies to the dollar or whatever. So, like I said, rookie contract, you start out, and I remember reading kind of like in on the third album, you're gonna be making a lot more if it sells, which it did, you know? So it's kind of fun, it's, yeah. I mean, again, super grateful that we had it because it smashed open a bunch of doors. We did make money on the first record and a half. We made money where I even put down to payment on the house that I'm in right now. Actually, I'm in the shed in the yard of the house, but we didn't make like millions, no. But we made money for the first time in our lives and got handed checks, we're like, shit, I could buy a new car. Are you still receiving royalties today? Yeah, we still do. And I think what happened for a long time just was done, like dried out, well, dried out, and we're like, fuck. And then I think in the last 10 years, I think two things, one, the whole Spotify thing, people have figured out, the companies have figured out where the money is to be made and, you know, everything changed, we're not selling records anymore, but people are streaming it and you're starting even the YouTube thing now. And again, I don't know shit about business and Witt and Gav are our manager, our co-managers. So, but there is money that has now, you're like, oh, shit, okay. Like it started up again, but it's also we are now a touring band with new products. Yes. We're touring and so when we go into a town, we sometimes do an interview that label plays it. It's really weird. It's probably like you scientifically, you know, that's why in the old days. Analytics. Yeah, analytics. I mean, I remember in the old days we would play Atlanta five times in one year. And we were like, why the fuck are we going Atlanta five times in one year? Shouldn't we be playing all these other cities that we haven't played in? And we still have never got a straight answer about that. But, you know, and the band, sorry, the label would always say we, because we didn't make any money touring back then. We lost money, you know? Now we actually make money touring because we sell t-shirts and we actually get the money from the t-shirts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. Home, that's our own business. But yeah, but it's, yeah, back in the day they were like, we're going to give you tour support hundreds of thousands of dollars, but you're not going to have any of that. That's just a pay for the damn tour. And then we get finished this tour, all shows sold out, one to 2,000 cedars in Europe. How much money you make? Oh, you didn't make any money, actually, zero because of the production. We brought a truck. You know, it was a European tour we did after America's One is that was pretty amazing tour. Like we even, you know, it was like, I said we had our own like shit, you know? You know what, at the end of the day everybody got paid but the bad. Yeah, no, I'm sure a lot of money. Well, we see it now. You see how much money is actually being moved as you can say. And it makes sense. It's really expensive to tour. And but, you know, like, you know, you could sit there and go, well, why don't you just do all rental gear and just show up? And that's what we pretty much do now because we can't afford to do anything else. Also, we do bring a backdrop and it's big and it hangs. Like most bands, you're not alone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you just bring a USB stick and you give them your backdrop and half the places have a big screen. I mean, all the big festivals and all these huge screens. You could just be like, shit, I've got all of our rotated, you know? I mean, everybody can look pretty, pretty professional now. But yeah, no, so the money thing was, it wasn't probably nearly as much with people would think, but for kids that are 24 years old to get a check for $15,000 one day, it would say your first check, you're like, holy shit. You know, plus you guys got from all that where you didn't make money, you got a brand name where most bands today would die for. Like, you know, you have a brand name that sort of resonates with the whole world in a sense, right? And a hit single and hit singles. Also, so that there's a price to that because bands today coming up, they don't have that brand name. They don't have that, that those hit singles back in the day, right? So what was new is old and what is new again? You know, sort of like, it just starts over again. I'm surprised that we're actually still touring. If you would have told me this in 2012 when we released the EP or whatever, yeah, right over there, I'd be like, yeah, we'll probably get a couple of years out of this. I mean, I figure maybe nostalgia will be enough for people to come see this band. You know, we're, you know what I mean? And then all of a sudden we played a tour and then we went on another festival tour in Europe, you know, did the festivals in Europe and you know, we play cats, the people were crazy, we play every other you, playing in the neighborhood, people are getting, you know, then all of a sudden we're playing clubs and we're still singing So Damn Fool back to us and Milkman's Son. So you're like, and you know, the crowds are older now, our crowds are older and more male. We were like, trying to do the math for like, the wives are like, no, I'm not going to go see a heavy metal band tonight. You go with your buddies, get hammered and do your thing. We're not into that. I don't know, maybe that's, I don't know. Look, we're the same age. I just noticed that. Yeah, the percentage changes and it's like, it's not the party of the week anymore. It's more of, ah, I remember this band. I want to go check it out. I love the new shit, you know. That's all right. It's fine and it's still super flattering that people come and actually, like I said, they, it's actually still surprising to me when they'll sing a song back to us really loud, you know, like that moment in neighbor where it stops and won't you be my neighbor. And every now and then there's like, I was like, holy shit, everybody in this room just sang that. Like at the same time. It's amazing. Like that's incredible. And that song was recorded 30 years ago, you know. Wow. Wow. All right. And we're not like Led Zeppelin. We're just this little band, you know, if you really think about it. And that's, you know, selling millions of albums. I mean, it's no, it's no small feat either. Right. It makes you realize that that even if it was just for two years of success that you could maybe bring it down to, it goes a long way. You struck a nerve. Yeah. With American or the world culture at one point in time. So. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it means something. Somebody, you know, saying, you know, I remember when that song was playing, you know, I met my wife for the first time, went on a date or whatever, I hated it. I mean, now, obviously now in retrospect in this many years later, you really, maybe it took a little time for us to even realize what had actually happened. You know, like it was actually a really hugely successful moment for this band. And we were so in it at the time. You know, we were just trying to get the record done and excited open for Ozzy. We didn't realize sometimes step back and go, dude, that literally like, it was Michael Jackson, you two and then ugly Joe at the top of the charts together. Like it was crazy shit like that, you know, for a brief, you know, two weeks, that was where we were. The song had to have some sort of substance to get up there. You know, it just had to have some sort of substance. Some sort of substance. Either comical. Yeah. Or a mix or something, right? Well, again, you know, you hear songs, you know, over the years that become hits and you don't really know why. And it's from a new band you've never heard of or it's a one hit wonder, you know, like, but you're like, but it's something happened there. Something, I'm singing it. I'm driving. I like it when it comes on. I turn it up, never heard of the band. Probably never will. But I'm like certain songs. And, you know, it's weird. It's actually, I think it's almost something you can't really, you actually can't analyze it. Yeah, you can't really. It's just, it just happens. You know, I don't know. All right. Well, let's hope this happens again. Here we go. Sure. Rad Wings of Destiny, not Sad Wings of Destiny. Wrong band. Wrong band. That's the other band. And thank you for being on the show. I mean, is there anything else you'd like to mention before we hang up? No, you mentioned when it's coming out October 21st, right? I'll say it again. October 21st on Meadowville. Yeah, coming out. And the songs. We're doing the UK and the visit. Hope. Thank you. And hopefully we will be in Canada at some point because honestly, we've had some, we've played with Meatloaf in Canada at some festivals back in 95, I'm guessing. And it was amazing. Super fun. Actually, Canada, it kind of reminded me of the European festivals a little bit. There's some, somewhere between the US, Canada and Europe. There's this transition, it seems. I'm in Montreal, which is kind of like the European city of Europe. Yeah, that's the French speaking area, right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we got a little taste of Europe here. So if you like coming here in Montreal, it's a good better city. Yes, it is. Well, Montreal, you have the French, major French influence, so. Yeah, absolutely. It's very cosmopolitan. It's got all the sort of, you know, cultures there too. And it's got, of course, the French in there too. So it's really nice. All right, my friend. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on. And I wish you all the success. Thank you.