 Hi, thanks very much. So I'm Stephen Bristol. I'm going to be moderating this panel. We're going to be talking about teaching rails, teaching Ruby, the community. I'm going to let these fine gentlemen go down the line and introduce themselves. And if you could say your name and why you're part of this panel, justify your existence for us briefly. Cool. I'm Steve Anderson. Bendy works Sprang Into Existence, partly as a side effect of mentoring and teaching other people. Thanks to Eric Knapp, who's an audience simplest out here. I've taught five semesters at the Tech College here in town and tried to set up an environment for success. And you can't do that with setting it up for teaching and mentoring and lots of learning. So along with the five semesters at a university, you guys are also doing apprenticeship-type programs in-house? We do. One of the programs we do is we sell our services that we work on a customer's code in combination with leveling up their developers on their own code base. OK. Chad? I'm Chad Patel, I'm the CEO of Thoughtbot. And we run a program called Apprentice IO. And that is a three-month-long, one-on-one apprenticeship program. This year, we have 20 apprentices. It's a big expansion of our internal apprentice program, which we have been doing for two years. We also give Rails and Ruby workshops, two-day workshops, all over. How often do you give workshops? We give the intro to Ruby on Rails workshop once a month. And the other workshops are about every one and a half months. And they're all in your location in Boston? Actually, Boston and San Francisco. And soon to be in Europe. And your apprenticeship program is three months, and you have people in it all the time, and you run it concurrently. Yeah, so it's not classes. It's not batches of people. Once you're accepted into the program, over 250 people have applied. We've accepted 20 for this year. So once you're accepted, you're scheduled into a slot with a mentor. And so unfortunately, the demand has been such that some people are waiting until all the way, actually, January of 2013. And it's very interesting for those people, because they're going to quit their job and do it. So it's been a little bit tricky for them to schedule that out. Jeff? I'm Jeff Coleman. I'm instructor at Code Academy in Chicago. We run 11-week-long web development and web design courses. Sort of how I got there was a long time. Developer doing lot.net. 2005 began to learn about Ruby, switched over to Rails. Co-author of a book called Rails for .NET Developers. 2008, I began to teach on the side, so I would go to corporate organizations where they've got job developers or .NET developers who wanted to learn how to switch over. So I chose for a day or two and do that. Found out that what I really enjoyed was the beginners, not the advanced folks. And so Code Academy was a chance to do beginner focused education, which is my passion. So you do 11-weeks and then you do another 11-weeks and then do another 11-weeks. Exactly, we're almost, we've got two weeks left, and we'll now be our fourth quarter in the resistance. And how many kids do you have in each class? We have about 20 to 24 in the web dev class. We actually now run two sections of the web dev class. In our evening design classes, we have about 30 in each class. And by kids, I mean folks. Yes, that's right, yeah. Sorry, not to call them kids. Yeah, that's right. Jeff? So my name is Jeff Kazimer. I started a company called Jumpstart Lab, which you may have heard mentioned 12 times, I think, so far as comments. Mission accomplished. No one else counted. No one, excuse me. I have a little tally. And so 2000, well, I started teaching computer science with Teach for America in 2003. Started Jumpstart Lab in 2009. And taught primarily kind of the classes Jeff was talking about, the travel corporate classes three days to two weeks kind of thing. Most recently, we started Hungry Academy at Living Social. It's a partnership kind of Living Social. Started in March with 24 people who were not Ruby developers, 16 of them identified as non-developers. Eight had a development background. And then at the end of July, after five months of start-up style hours, 70-hour week kind of thing, they were all true developers and were hired to the Living Social engineering team. Steve, with your, you're not doing the teaching at the university currently, that's right. I'm not at the mall. So with the people that come in, you say they're primarily, they work for your clients. Is that right? Okay, well, you were asking if we do apprenticeship. We have a much less formal approach. Everyone that we hire into Bendy Works, we have them go through a period of leveling up. And we did a really interesting program last year that was based on something Hashrock did where we had one person, it was myself and our three newest people. We were focused on leveling up. We set up a project who is real customer work and real goals and, but the focus, it was a cheaper rate and a longer period of time. So the focus would be on sharing the habits, how we do things at Bendy Works. And it worked really well. We switched pairs twice a day so that no person and no bit of code was ever more than four hours so away from involvement with the senior person. Okay. Worked really well. We're gonna, next time we do it, we're gonna twist it a little bit though and just have two new people. So then these are your employees, so they get a salary, they get a salary. And Chad, the people who come on board for the apprenticeship, you pay them or they pay you? We pay them, we pay them $500 a week. So it's $6,000 over the course of three months. And we do not bill out there. So they're working, we pay them, but they are doing work that's not paid. Non-global time. And the people that come to your workshops, they pay you. And Jeff, the people that come to your workshops, they pay. And you don't have any sort of internship program or something where you're paying people to learn. No, we're not. Primarily it's in job placement. It's for people who wanna learn about what web development is all about. People who have really no background in it at all. And Jeff, how are your structure for? We're kind of on both sides. So with Hungry Academy, it was a fully paid program. They were paid very well during the program. And then transition. Do you wanna say how well? Quite well. I thought it was too well. What do you do? Not that well. No one's paid that well. They were paid what I would consider a very reasonable developer. So along those lines, at what level did they come out? Did they come out at that level? In skill. Yeah, yeah. In skill, it was my goal that they could be called developers. Some of the conversation around these issues, there's another program that uses the phrase world-class beginner. And I think that's a really interesting phrase. And I didn't want to make up any phrases for people. I wanted them to just be developer. Would you have hired any of the 24 at the salary if Chad wouldn't have strangled me? I would have hired about eight of them. Different Chad. We tried to get another Chad for the panel. Depends on how this panel goes. I would say that the top third or so are they know a lot of things I don't know. And are they required to take the position with living social? There was a, it was communicated that if living social offered you an acceptable position it was expected that you were gonna take it. Right, but obviously contractually, they can't force on you. In the US, right to work and so forth, people can be fired anytime and you can quit your job anytime. And Chad, with you, what about the people that come out of your apprenticeship? Are they required or do you encourage them to take a position with you? We encourage them to take a position. What we actually do is we encourage them to take an interview with us. Obviously they've been interviewing with us for three months, but with any of the employers. So the way that we can do so many apprentices is that anyone who we don't hire gets the opportunity to interview with over a hundred apprentices who are watching them come through the three month apprenticeship. And when that happens, we get a placement fee for that. And it actually hasn't, it's only happened once. And Stephen, obviously they're already your employees so that's a non-issue. When Chad, when they come out of your program what level would you expect them to be? It depends on where they came in. We generally talk about them going up one whole level. So beginner to intermediate or intermediate to expert. And that's what, but our goal over time has evolved as the economics of the program become clear, where our goal is we wanna get everyone to the point where thought bot would hire them. And if we can do that, then we'll be really successful. And how have you done reaching that goal? We've hired, so far this year we've done 12 apprentices. We've hired six of them. Okay. And did you not hire the other six because of level or because they just wasn't a good fit? A bunch of different reasons. So some people, actually two people went off. The question really is people are coming out of the program all at that high level. Yeah, yeah. Two people went off and did their own startup together. A couple were students. So they were so strong that we accepted them knowing that they were gonna go back to school and wouldn't become available for another year. And others, you know, it wasn't a good fit for consulting or something like that. And Stephen, when people, you're hiring people. Are you hiring them at an instructor level, at a beginner level, in-meter level, and then? We've hired people at a broad range. The key is passion, the group of three that I was talking about, each of those had, two of them had a Rails app in production already and one had a Python app in production. But I don't think any of the three had yet done test-driven development, behavior-driven development, and iterations. And Jeff, when people are coming, obviously your course is only 11 weeks. So it's considerably, it's a bit shorter. What level are they coming in and out of your program? So they're coming in, most of our students have never tried to do any programming at all. I tell people that if you can use a keyboard in a mouse, they're good to go. Coming out, most people are just short of trying to get an apprenticeship, so we try to connect them in with the community that we have in Chicago to people who find bridges toward learning what they need to do next. A few people have found apprenticeships in John Jobs, but the rule, that's the exception. Most folks are coming to actually take this skill back to their job that they already have to apply it to their industry. I see. So, how do you guys define beginner, intermediate, and senior expert developer? Like, where do you guys draw the line? Those lines. Let's start with Chad. So I define an intermediate Rails developer as someone who is able to completely generate a Rails app on their own, but doesn't do it with purpose or craftsmanship. So that's the difference. That's intermediate. Yeah. Is there anyone else shocked by that? Am I the only one? Couple, go on. So when I say things, I mean writing tasks, doing TDD, being able to look at code. Oh, so not just generate Rails app, but actually make a Rails app. Yeah, build the whole Rails app. Yeah, yeah. Not so shocked anymore. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. But doesn't look at code even know necessarily why it's good or bad, but it can't talk about it that way and doesn't know how to make it better. And then advanced? Would be someone who can do all of that. All of it. And is there a difference between advanced and expert or senior that those three words are all synonymous? Yeah, I tend not to use the word expert too much because I think real experts won't say that they're experts because they understand how much they don't know. But, Jeff. Yeah, if I can morph your question a little bit because something or something. The evolution that I tend to see over the 11 weeks that we have is that beginners will come in looking for the recipe. Like, okay, what do I type next? After I do the Rails new, you know, we get around to models, okay, what do I do? They're looking for the recipe. By the end, it's a little bit more intuition-based. Oh yeah, I need a couple models and you do it as many and you sort of go. So they sort of leave, they let go of that worry about recipe and they're building more based on their intuition to feel about what to do next. It's a little bit hard to categorize, but there's usually a point at which you feel like someone has moved into that more intermediate level when they can stop worrying about syntax so much. They're comfortable, oh, you know what? I can go look it up if I need to. They don't worry about memorizing. They've learned how to go read and apply what they're reading into what they can do. Sort of on their own. So they've sort of learned how to learn. It's kind of my hope by the end of the 11 weeks of Code Academy is that students don't say, okay, well, that was pretty good. I can now forever do whatever Jeff taught me for 11 weeks. I want them to be able to say, okay, that was pretty good, but now I'm good to go. Like now I really can start to build my app, Zia. That's when I know that they've actually accomplished what I would want. So that, yeah. I think that the intermediate developer can solve problems. They can find a solution to a problem, right? And then kind of as Chad was saying, like the beyond intermediate, it's hard to say advanced, right? But like the upper intermediate or proficient developer can find multiple solutions and evaluate those solutions and refine them along the way. How percentage wise, how often is the intermediate developer who's finding that solution? Is that a good solution or a solution that you guys come up with or put in a production? I feel like you can always hate code. Well, let's not get to that level, right? I mean, certainly an intermediate level isn't taking Paulo's talk from this morning and finding how to get around it, right? Like I work with Steve, so like I'm accustomed to every piece of code you've ever seen. Come forward? Wait, what about? I think the first time it's always bad, right? So part of the challenge of this, in all these processes, we're trying to compress the learning of years. Like none of us learned this in three months, six months, nine months, whatever. And the part you can't replicate is just doing it a lot. You just have to go through it and solve even similar problems several times over. And so I think if you can get your first couple bad solutions out of the way under like a controlled environment where you have a lot of support, then you're set up to build the good solutions. Yeah, may I speak to that? So the thing that works so effectively towards that issue is pair programming. And pair programming is such a powerful mechanism for transfer of knowledge, transfer of skills approach. An intermediate working with an expert is going to be learning new things that are the next step for them as an intermediate and be exposed to things that are advanced concepts all mixed together. And they're getting what they're able to get out of it all. Every day they're going to get different things out of that situation. I think one of the challenges there is the expert has to know how to let the other person struggle. It's difficult, I think especially for us, like when you see the solution, it's like, okay, tag, I got this, and it's done. And it's not also, you can't go to the other extreme of like, I'm not telling you, I'm just going to sit here. I'm just going to drop that, right? And so that's where it takes the practice and having them. Yeah, I'll say, I mean, on what Thursday, I sat through your day of Rails Ruby training, and I was really impressed by your ability to walk that line, and I thought that was, I was very impressed by that. What's a developer worth? How do you value a developer? Like you got a guy or a gal out of school or interviewing, how do you put a price on them? What's that value? How do you do that? You mean how do you make a salary for that person? How do you do it? How does Chad do it? How do the Jepps do it, Steve? How do you guys do it? What's your thought process? What goes into that? How do you take someone that you don't know and then put a price tag on them? The variances in salary, I thought about, in the grand scheme of things are, there's very little variance. And most variances come from people's, like what they've made before and what they need to live, because they might have a family or those kinds of things. I just think there's not a great variance. But you're generally hiring or exclusively hiring very high level engineers, developers. So that might explain that variance, but that's not really what I'm asking. Okay. I think, in living social, and obviously I do not work in living social just to be clear, so I can't do it authoritatively. But what Chad talks about there is that he needs developers when you, we think about salary, and that's how much I cost is my salary, but practically speaking from a business perspective, it's much more than that. And you need a developer to deliver value about three X their salary. And our salaries are large. So you're talking, you're probably above 200, somewhere between 200 and 300,000 a year of value. And so I would think, is that the kind of scale you guys have as consultants? Yeah, so we know what the economics of our business are. And so we can't pay someone outside of those economics, particularly because we're not a product company. So if we stop working, the money stops. So if someone's not generating that value of being able to effectively, we don't have different levels of rates for individual consultants at ThoughtBot. So you need to be able to bill at our high rate. And if you're not able to do that, then you don't work at ThoughtBot. So, but what we always do in the way we're structured is that the value that you bring to the company has almost nothing to do, if you're meeting the baseline of doing great development, your projects are going well, all that stuff, how we actually value you is by the other stuff that you do. So instigating change, starting new open source projects, coming up with new ideas for improvement and those kinds of things. So we do quarterly reviews and give people raises every quarter. Based on those other metrics. Yeah, yeah. But surely in your apprenticeship programs and in your teaching programs, you have students that come to you and say, based on what you've seen me, towards the end of the program, based on what you've seen from me so far, what should I be asking for? Yeah. So how do you come up with those numbers? Like, what? Smaller. Remember they usually had. It's always small. A lot of the people who come into the program have been taken advantage of. They don't really know what they're, no, yeah, not by us. They don't really know what they are worth. In case you were one man. So the reason why a lot of people are willing to quit their job and come work with us to do this is because they're either just out of school or a couple years out of school, they're making like $45,000 a year doing something that they don't really like and isn't progressing them. And so someone like that who comes in at a beginner and leaves as an intermediate developer in the Boston area would make like 75 or 85 to start. And so based on market and all that stuff, that's where I would counsel that person to be at and to expect. And I think it's good that you mentioned market, because we have, it's almost half of our students are from outside of Illinois, some from outside the country. So sometimes I'll get this question, what can I make, I don't know, are you gonna stay in Chicago because the Chicago rates are not the same as San Francisco or New York or somewhere else. So it's also market dependent. You got San Francisco, New York, like Boston, DC, Denver, Boulder, and then Chicago and everywhere else, right? So I think when you're looking at a beginner, like an apprentice, depending what kind of support a person's getting, I would expect them to earn like 50 to 60 area kind of area, maybe up to 65. I think a proficient developer is gonna be in like the 60, or 60, like 67 to like 80, 85. And then I think with two years seasoning, you're like 85 up to 110. Right, yeah, that matches my expectations. So just by round of applause, do you guys tend to agree with these numbers from what you've seen and feel, or do you think they're kind of off? So let's applaud if you think they're kind of on spot on. I was saying kind of like the one I'm familiar with, which is like the DC, Boulder, Boston, you know, like San Francisco. Do you guys kind of agree with that? I would guess that Madison was a little bit more. So that's pretty hit and miss, I'd say. I mean, or was that wrong? I mean, was that a lot? I mean, it seemed like kind of medium to me. But so let's turn that question around then, right? So as an employer, right? Which some of you guys are that as well and people are coming into you. How do you then evaluate them to figure out what category they're in, right? And turning that around again, how does then that individual, how do they prove that to you, right? So let's say they didn't go through this apprenticeship program, we have some experience on this as someone. How do they prove to you what they can do? So our process for hiring is non-technical discussion interview with me. A technical interview with one or two of the developers, less than an hour. We just ask you some questions and talk about your experience. And if you pass that, oh, sorry. The first thing we do before ever talking to you is we ask to review your code. So we do not talk to it. Like we don't even really talk to anyone who we don't already know without reviewing code first. And we started doing that because we would talk to people and they would talk a really good game. And then we'd eventually get to see their code and we're like, we should have just never, we never should have talked to this person. So we started reviewing code upfront. But some people don't have any code to show because they're either they're new or they just basically. Right, so then we're not, they're not a candidate for a full position at the lot, yeah. Is there, Stephen, do you have other? Well, we're still young enough in our growth. We've never hired anybody we're not excited about already. And what we do is we try to. So these are people you're familiar with to get that right. We help support and grow the community and every now and then people stand out from the community and we try to set up opportunities to do projects with those people, pair program. It certainly would try to pair program with them. So then if you make it through the technical interview, you do a day of pairing where you come in, you pair with two or three members of the team for the day and give a presentation to the whole company at the end of the day. So everyone gets to see you talk and get experience of you. And so as someone who may be both hires but certainly puts people out in the world, do you feel that some sort of certification or something might be appropriate, a good idea? No, not at all. So I have like what I know is an unpopular position on this, which is yes. Or that I think it's really interesting from my background in education, like when you're, we would tell someone you're teaching seventh grade social studies. Like there's a list of skills that a person who finishes seventh grade social studies supposed to possess the standards. I know we have common core standards, but I think it's very interesting that as a Ruby developer, it's impossible. I'm not so interested in other people telling me what I know, but for me, I can't express what I know about Ruby. Or what are specifically the things I don't know. There is no way for me to like run down a list and figure out like here are the 116 things I feel awesome at. Here are the 40 things I'm decent at. And here are the 30 things that Paulo's talking about this morning that I don't know anything about. I did know something about that. How do you, that's not true. I think it would be interesting and probably valuable if the community started to drive a discussion about like what it means to be a Ruby developer. I think a lot of the rejection of certifications that the community has is like no one, and I would welcome anyone who has, no one has a good example of a certification that the community thinks is a good example of a certification in like really any industry maybe plumbers like have licenses or whatever. So I think if someone were, sorry. Yeah, I don't even, I don't even know, but yeah. Well they all have like a degree, right? And those were professionals. So you were saying like the bar exam for attorneys, right? But does, would people hold that up as an example of wow that's a really great way of doing it? And would you guys want to take one just because these guys introduced one, right? To prove that what you already know, right? Which is the flip side of that, right? Of certification. Like who is gonna do that? Right, right. So my thinking on a, or imposter syndrome came up yesterday. I think even good developers, there's like a tinge of doubt in your gut that maybe you're not that good of a developer. And I wonder if part of our reaction to certification isn't a concern that like someone's gonna find out I'm a fraud and that I'm actually not that good of a developer. So let's ask somebody that doesn't have that tinge. Anthony, do you want to? He doesn't, he doesn't. So when you look at code that you wrote a week ago, though you see all the problems with it. And you realize, even just a week, I know how to do something better than I did before. I think that's another concern with certifications is like how can you possibly keep it up to date? Especially in the kind of environment that we operate in where are you gonna certify that like people know certain gems? Well like, you know, like what the fat is for testing is not like a measure of what someone is good at. So whether they know our spec or that's not it. So whether they know our spec or that's not it. Right now I feel like we have kind of a de facto certification where, you know, if somebody came to me, I was hiring a developer and you say they're good, I'm like all the chapters are good, they're good. So they get the Patel certification. Right, but you guys are kind of ruining that, right? By cranking out Rails developers, right? You're creating a world where you don't know people and that's kind of what started or what could lead to like needing recruiters, I don't forbid if you guys are very successful. Well, so I think that the best way to demonstrate what you know is to show something you need to build. Yes. So do you guys get up to help me? Do you encourage your students to build something over the course or immediately after? Is that part of? They can't come in unless they have something they need to build. So I don't think that coming, you should try to acquire skills just so you can get a salary. If you have a meaningful problem you actually wanna solve, then you'll be motivated to go through the hard work of one of these programs that it's gonna take to actually get through the whole program. You need something that you are really passionate about. You're willing to work a lot and try to learn a lot and keep going even when things get tough because you have a higher goal. So I think that goal-based learning is really the important thing. You need to have something that they're working on, some meaningful part of work. So I think that most employers these days are just looking at, well, what have you built? I think that the GitHub profiles become the resume. Yes. I think that that's absolutely right for traditional employers and companies like ours, but I know Jeff was trying to do some stuff with veterans and we've also explored that a little bit. And that's where you get into like, well, if people go through your program, how are you, what do they get out of it? Yeah, so what Chad's alluded to, we had a conversation with the veterans administration, those kinds of veterans, about funding, workforce development training. And so the first question they ask is, when they get done, what certification are they gonna have? And when the answer is like, well, we don't really believe in certification. Like, hmm, fantastic, get out. But for that, you could just say, well, they get the Jumpstart Lab certification. Certified Ruby Developer, right? You could just... If he does that, then the community tears them apart. Like, that's not gonna do anyone any good. Would you? If he created a certification of completion, you guys would frown on that? No. I would frown on that. But overwhelmingly, would you guys, like if it's just a certification of completion, do you guys feel threatened by that? Do you feel like that's okay? Do you feel like that's sliding? It's too much of a slippery slope already? The reason? Sure, but it matters to the government agency and the people that he's trying to help, right? So it doesn't matter? I mean, not necessarily, right? No, would someone, I mean, somebody could come in and learn nothing. Is it possible that someone's gonna finish one of your courses and learn nothing and not be qualified when they come out? Like, how do you get through that? So not for his, but if certification becomes the norm, then somebody else could fool the government agency that they have a certificate, which will mean nothing. Well, they'll mean nothing. The reason I'm against it? Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't think we should conform to... Like, I think we're forgetting that there's a thing called a computer science degree. It's supposed to actually indicate... But that's pretty meaningless too. It is, so I... Right. Right, exactly. You don't know that. Yeah. I mean, in theory, you don't know. Fine, beware, you don't know. Generally, but she doesn't call a certified plumber. She calls a plumber for the phone book. Yeah. So let's bring this back for a quick second. I appreciate your input. I do. I wanna add one thing. Yeah. I'm against certification because of personal experience. As a Java consultant, I worked with people who scored 100% on the Sun-certified Java exams and they could not code their way out of a paper bag. Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure. I'm not sure why though. All right, we're... Yeah. Right, okay. Yes, Anthony. So let's just... Everyone answer that question for yourselves internally and continue that conversation to happen. And after you do it, show me the receipt. We're almost out of time here. So I want... I was certified in Amsterdam. But after that... All right, so just a few quick questions. What's your favorite thing about the other people and groups on the panel? And perhaps your least favorite thing. I love the fact that these guys are focused on teaching exclusively. Is there primary focus? Except Chad. Well, Chad, he's brought his apprentice program. He's developed it and pushed it through several iterations. Yeah, and actually we're on the reasons why we give it a separate name is so that it is a standalone thing that can be focused on. So we have a... I used to do it, we now have someone else who is the product manager for that business unit and we generate a P&L for that. And apprentice IO has figured out a way to have people work on real projects without there being... There's no danger or subterfuge to the client. And apprentice IO is thought about, yeah. One of the things I actually like about... I thought it was just the contribution back to the community. It's one of the things, when I was a long time at that dove and then open source seemed like, what, you work for free and you just give away? This is crazy. That's evil, dark side stuff. But actually now that they take me along to figure out what a wonderful place open source is, the fact that you... There's almost an expectation that if you're gonna use something that you got out of the open source community, you're almost expected to give something back. I think thought about it has been awesome. Is there something that you might be too scared to try or to do that you'd like, oh, I would love to do this, but I'm not courageous enough. I don't wanna risk that, anyone? There's this thing called certification. The thing we tried to do that we had to pull back from was we ran into a whole bunch of stuff with visas. So Ashish talked about this. The reality is there is no visa that the US has that allows someone to do, to come to the US and do one of these things, anything that we do. Like you need to be, all the visas you have, it needs to be a accredited educational institution than there's some visas. Or you need to be fully qualified with certain degrees for the position you do. So even where living social, unless they're doing something special, that you're not allowed to sponsor someone. And so we're not able to take any international students to Apprentices to Apprentice IO. And so because of that, we're expanding the program to Europe over time. You're over here first. So that we can take international. So that's a risk that you're taking. Is there anything that you're afraid to do that you're like, oh, I wanna do it, but I can't. Or you just feel it. Well, I wanted to take the international students in the US anyway. And we've actually, honestly, we tried to do a couple under the table. You did not hear that here. Yeah, you did not hear that here first. Jeff? I think our thing, and I hope this isn't an answer, although it's happening now, is we're trying a public enrollment program. At our long term of five, six months, nobody has done that. And it's very, very expensive. And trying to figure out how to make that work for students. What does public enrollment mean? Like Code Academy is, where you can pay your own way. But because the program's gonna be two and a half times as long, it costs two and a half times as much. And so, what will happen when we say, like, you're gonna get this amazing training and education, but you're gonna be paying like a year of college kind of expense. Before stipends and things we're working on like that, it's 20,000 a person. And that's basically just the instructor. So, like, what I think we, we're clearly, let's give Jeff just a mark to answer. Oh, no, that's, okay. If you have any. I just, one thing that's scary to me that I would love to do, but I'm not sure how to do it yet, is to do beginner focus like computer education for kids. So at like the middle school, high school level, where I think a lot of, so I've got two girls. So where a lot of stereotypes get formed in that middle school, like, I'd like to somehow break through right at that point and start to open up this kind of literacy and empowerment for all the kids. So by the time they get to college, they already feel great about where they feel in respect to technology that they can produce something and not just consume it all day and all night. And Stephen, can you answer your question? Is there something you'd like to do with your program? Well, it's something that I'm afraid of doing. I think one of the next steps for us is to look at the idea of apprenticing, well, the team, we do a book club and the team shows us the next book, The Apprenticeship Patterns that one of the speakers put. I think if she should put it up on the screen. So I think it's gonna cause us to come up with some kind of a plan to what to try next. I'm just gonna close with this, you guys can answer in any way you like. Are any of you concerned or really trying hard to bring sexy back? Anybody? I think it's obvious. Please join me.