 Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to simulation. I'm your host on sake and we are still at cofe as the Congress on the future of Engineering software for our second annual partnership with them. We are now sitting down with Peter Thorne. Hello. Hello. Hello Thank you for coming on to our show. We greatly appreciate it. I appreciate the invitation We're very excited to talk to you about everything that you're working on Kambashi's been around for a really long time. You've been with them as a director for 24 years That's right. Which is a very long time to be working in engineering software field Kambashi's doing industry knowledge for business advantage helping companies selling and marketing engineering software We're going to be talking about market data consulting training IOT charter program engineering software pyramid all this cool stuff Before we get there Peter. Let's talk about you. How did you even get interested in engineering software? I was doing science and computer science at University and the part of that that I enjoyed the most was the 3d graphics In computer science and so it was a kind of natural destination for me. So Very early job out of university Was real-time software related to driving 3d graphics systems, which you know at the time was a big deal They were expensive boxes and and so on and That took me in I got into contact with application teams initially in ship design and then in Process plant design and then later moving on to general purpose drafting systems and 3d Modeling systems. I did a lot of that as a developer part of that work was on the more on the user side actually on the ship design projects and Then for me the natural progression was into kind of project management and marketing and that sort of stuff and Eventually I ended up at Kambashi because I guess I had a head full of what was going on in the engineering software market and when you're seeing this evolution of these of Computing and engineering software over the span of time leading up to your work with Kambashi What were some of the big sort of aha moments about personal computing and about the revolution of design software? I think for me the big milestones were Firstly Understanding or trying to understand the difference between Geometry as you know the shape of everything and What is a product model? What is the data that truly describes the object you're trying to design understand manufacture use and service? And in terms of the industry I feel the industry spent too much time stuck on geometry because you know geometry was an interesting hard problem to solve with computers if you go back to the 80s and and early 90s and Was relatively slow to be able to see that products were more than just geometry and it was very necessary To handle more than just geometry now things have moved on You know people we the industry has got a better grasp of what it has to deal with in order to write useful software And provide useful tools for design engineers Interesting so this sort of attachment to getting the geometry right was kind of a it was kind of like a first principle to drive They wanted to get the if the right ways of describing what was appearing in Geometry on the two on the on the 2d surface, but in 3d, which is a very complicated Process that's right, and it's an absolutely necessary Important part of systems, but it's not the whole story You know so when you think about New product introduction actually it starts with requirements. How do you map requirements into? Geometry that's really really hard in fact What you have to do is start with requirements map those into Functions and functions then can make their way into geometry and if that's your mindset you are far more likely to be successful in Providing a set of tools which are going to make sense to a design engineer as an end user so yeah it That Don't let me try and downplay geometry. It's critically important But and it took the industry a long time to get enough of that right to be able to move on But you know that I even even now that has been solved I suppose for More than ten years. There are not many systems that are stuck on just geometry now and you would we could say that it's solved Well, it's pretty good. It's never solved. There's always in this industry There is always room for something Totally and we can see that here at co-fets. You know there are startup companies offering new approaches and You know they're interesting and some of them are going to be hugely successful. Yes now, what you would you then say that when when you when you're taking a a What what you're attempting to put into a 3d space on a 2d surface these geometries and you're Putting them inside of some sort of a of a you're aiming to make a function that that that that process of finding out how to how to make that actually Occur at its most optimal level It's is that is that more of a process of the actual software being able to take what you would like for the Fort for for the optimizing the function is that kind of is it a saw is it is it a software by software can Different softwares would make it potentially easier to for the function partly the way I would would try to explain it is You've got to give the engineer Different concepts to work with one of those concepts is geometry But actually you need to be able to navigate around a much broader set of Artifacts data, you know, they would originally have been documents before computers you need to be able to navigate around and and have access to ways of describing of Interrogating and understanding first of all requirements and then functions before you get to the specifics Specifics of geometry and there are different ways of doing that. You know systems engineering people often talk about requirements Functions a logical model and a physical model and the geometry part is only in the physical model You know one of four steps of the sort of big thinking of how you put a Product together, so the key thing is Giving the engineer The ability to go to any of those places in the description of the of the product and In quite sometimes quite interactive ways You don't know whether they're going to spend you're in the middle of working on some detail of geometry and To take the next step Actually, you've got to stop and think do I really understand the requirement? No, I don't I'll go and look you know and and that's where the software needs to be able to follow the train and Software can now can do this click click click on the geometry And you jump up the levels to to see the requirement and at that point you can then say oh, yes Now I can remember what we really should be doing and what how to trade off the constraints around this area Design click click click back, and you can do the right thing you're in the geometry, so it's navigation It's the connected nature of all of these different types of model, and if those things all work together Then you're going to have a happy engineer who feels that this computer model is offering all the right access points to Make changes to to ask questions to do simulations Yeah, and so on interesting so a lot of this is about the engineer having a really strong Kind of tool belt to be able to go and poke and prod you said double-click into certain areas and see exactly what those Requirements were double-click back out go to the different area and you know swap things out run simulations This is all kind of what the what the The tool belt can be for for engineers, and that's what engineering software can optimally become. Yes Now that we've got to that point, you know now it's time to take the next step with the The current situation actually it can be quite quite difficult to Understand if you try to draw a diagram of how these things work you find your drawing diagrams over the various views of the product, you know be it the requirements or the functions or the physical Model and then you end up drawing lots of arrows as to how they connect together Because as you can imagine one requirement can give rise to a number of different functions And you know say three or four different functions and they can be implemented in a number of different ways You know there might be a mechanical solution with geometry there might be an electronic solution This is will be done by the software in you know the control board of the of the product that has you know so can can drive motors and do things you know to to enable that function so Yeah, you end up with a diagram with a lot of Arrows on it, and you know you scratch your head and think wow You know engineers have held this stuff in their heads. Oh, yeah, you know, and that's what they have to do And in fact they have to hold Multiple versions in their heads because at any one time it's bit like playing chess You know you're thinking of what is the strategy here? What is the next step? I've got six options on the go Which one shall I develop to see if it's the best and you know the great designers can very quickly pick the one That's that is going to produce the best Result just like the good chess players Know that they need to develop play on this side of the board or something like that. Yeah Wow when you make the when you put it into perspective where there's so many different of these arrows connecting When you make changes how it influences so many other parts and for someone to be able to make the decision on For for customers of what is going to be the best Most successful decision that is that is a very very cool way of thinking about the decisions that you come from these From from companies about products that they're making Now, how did the how did the first transition happen to Kambashi for you? It was slightly strange actually. I Had known the founder and Owner of Kambashi for many years while I was doing other other things And at one point I was changing jobs just continuing in the sort of mainstream vendor user world of engineering software and I Was about to be offered a job, but I needed a reference So I went to this, you know contact colleague friend of mine from for and asked for a reference And we got talking and instead of taking the job that I'd been offered. I ended up at Kambashi So, yeah, it was just it was it's a story totally not deliberate from my point of view But I had a great conversation and thought actually, you know that suits my character of just being Interested nosey what the Australians would call sticky beak sticky beak where you just you just want to know About everything that's going on. Yeah, and the world of Industry analysts Consulting that's that's what you do, you know, you dip in and out of projects with clients Sometimes over a period of years so you can see things through from concept to completion But you're not involved all but you're dealing with you know multiple clients in multiple different types of projects But it was kind of an accident. Yeah, and then what was it's like? 24 years ago compared to maybe 10 years ago compared to now in terms of what industries are you analyzing the most? Also, what types of projects are you guys taking on? If we go back 24 years there was first of all there were still more Vendor companies in the market, you know, there's been a lot of consolidation. So is that the one, you know just 15 maybe significant players in the market, which meant that end-users were asking for advice about who were the strong players in What sort of area so that was an important part? Since with the consolidation going on foot from Kanbashi's point of view that has seemed to be less of a demand from users now And there was still, you know, 24 years ago There were still questions of Does this really work? you know, so there were Vendors who really wanted to be able to demonstrate that their stuff worked And you know Kanbashi could play a part in that either in helping You know review case studies and see how a particular set of implementations Should be enough to give, you know new prospects confidence that you know the solution would work in their environment And I guess also for Kanbashi at least in What for me were the early days of Kanbashi's? Many more of the projects were custom designed projects So whereas now Kanbashi has invested in Its own research and development to produce licensable data and materials and and so on so just off the shelf Content in those early days. It was very much a Let's talk to a to a prospective client talk about the problems see if we can Design if not a complete answer at least a project which will help move the client Towards an answer. So, you know the shorter version of that is to say the transition has been from that kind of Custom project Environment to much more a kind of licensed data services type of environment. Yeah Yeah, that that seems to be a recurring theme of what we've been as we've been sitting down with people We've been hearing more and more about The services that are now at Provided on the cloud that engineering software can can can engineers can choose to use Any cloud computations and that they that they desire for their projects versus maybe what used to be Doing a project as a consulting firm for the that engineering team now The engineering team can maybe go out and find the algorithms and the processes that they need So then with with maybe let's go a little bit closer to today then What are some of the most because they're the these these fields of market data consulting and training or what are what? Unpack these for us and how can bash it does what it does in those fields. I Suppose we ended up with that kind of structure Because it was all based on our research work. So what we found especially our engineering software vendor clients were asking for there's information about industry So we as a trying to satisfy that need we researched industries And when we research industries we get two types of information both qualitative and quantitative so it was kind of natural to Capture that information so the Quantitative data went in one direction towards our market sizing data sets and the Qualitative information went in another direction, which was towards the training material that we use for industry training And then of course, you know, it's never a perfect fit for what a client wants So we added professional services to the offer well added that was more a continuation of the traditional business from you know 20 years ago But instead of inventing solutions and projects It was more with how to use the assets of the data and the industry content and knowledge sort of inside the training Materials to solve a particular Problem so we ended up with the with the three lines of business The market data where you can license a spreadsheet that tells you about The revenue engineering software revenues in in the market the training business where you can license material to find out about particular Industries, you know so pharmaceuticals or high-tech or machinery and If just using those off the shelf that off the shelf content isn't enough then we'll step in and Help you use that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and then when what are you what are you seeing as the most? common Market data that people are most interested the most common training that people are interested in using through you we did a on the training side at least that's we've got a sort of quantitative sort of a quantitative answer there, so We had a couple of Licensees who between them reported 10,000 completions of modules within the training Content, so this gave us when they said 10,000 thought that's wonderful. You know, that's enough So we're going to see what is the really popular stuff? and We got pretty consistent use over all of the modules and what was Each time we thought we'd found something, you know, and I remember it particularly There were the two clients involved and one of them for one of them There were two training modules that were relatively under use great We found something that we can kind of cross off the list or doesn't need to be updated too often or something like that And then we went and looked at the other client and learn behold those two were right at the top of their list of use it so you know in terms of Training, I suppose we're sort of glad that that is the situation because Our industry training is designed for Professionals who are trying to work with people in these industries, so they need to Learn the language they need to understand the business issues so that they can talk to somebody in that industry and have a meaningful Conversation, yes, yes, and you know if they're a technology vendor they or services vendor They can position their offer in terms that they're the person they're speaking to will understand and I guess what we were seeing was that perhaps there was more a Sort of general use of the training content So people were thinking oh crikey. I've got a meeting with a pharmaceutical company this afternoon So I'll spend half an hour this morning In the training content to just make sure I'm up to speed on the words and so on That's a great business development skill set If you're taking a meeting with an industry that you could use a refresher on learn some of their Nomenclature that they use please just take the 30 minutes to to learn about the company about Some of the words that they use that type of stuff because you're going to have a higher success rate with that conversation build more rapport Relate to their work more. This is where these trainings come in I think in really great help for building stronger bonds between people Yes, yes, and we found our training actually Works for two different types of Trainee of learner so there are you know We've seen our training content the level 100 type content used in the onboarding process where new members of staff are just brought into a company and You know go through the training so that they can work in you know some some sectors but we've also seen it used when experienced people move from one area to another and Those experience be you know, they absolutely know how to work with customers They've got all of the skills and actually our training. We're not trying to teach the skills We're trying to provide the content You know as you say the nomenclature the business issues that kind of stuff and for experienced people They can use our stuff and very quickly get what they need to have those conversations and then on the market data side would have been some of the popular so probably the main differentiator for us and That probably has led to the main use of our data is the detail that we provide for global data by country and by industry So, you know we cover we provide data for 56 countries And within each country we actually research and model Wait for it 112 industry sectors now. Whoa. You see You would be quite right to react and say that's crazy. Yeah, and you're all right. Nobody needs 112 sectors Point is we work with a range of clients and they all think of Their vertical industries they have slightly different definitions sure So they're all completely right that you need you know on a scale of seven or ten vertical sectors to organize a corporation and We have to do 112 so that we can map the industries to our clients industries and get a good fit to that So the main use, you know for the big corporations dealing with many countries. It's in Marketing planning, which really means resource allocation budget allocation and also target setting So one of the main bits of feedback that we get when we just bump into people, you know traveling around the world Are the sales teams on the sales managers who say ah? Kambashi You're the source of our sales targets, aren't you and we say well, no no not us with we just have Evidently, you know that you know your your company is a client of ours And they must have used our numbers to help set your sales targets So yeah, it's marketing planning target resource allocation Target setting my news and I saw one of the images that you were sharing regarding the Regarding this market data that you end up analyzing and then licensing because there's Four almost four and a half billion people in Asia and the market for engineering software There is growing GDP is the highest there in the world and then so then how do you then? end up Figuring out out of the you know 56 countries 112 of these subcategories Which one then is you know that you're really trying to do to either both look at as well As why are other people looking at it? Is it because there's like the most amount of of of interest in Asia is in biotech and you're looking at that It said can you explain how this of these sort of market data? Analyst analyzing happens and why it's so important There is our research uses a huge number of different sources I mean, you know is trying to trying to count the sources and kind of gave up when we hit about 800 or 900 So I guess we're talking about you know a few thousand maybe two or three thousand sources Of data and that includes all of the company reports, but it also all of the provider reports all the financial reports That are available which are legally supposed to be correct, which are legally correct. Yes. Yes, but of course Those reports only cover a percentage of the market There are all the private companies as well And they're the unlisted companies where the data is just different if it's available at all So we go to a huge number of sources and and we try to maintain We try to obtain Information from at least three independent sources. Yeah, so providers is a really important one But actually country information. Yeah is another one. So most countries have a moderate well often a reliable national statistics office They mainly have good company registries so that you can get some sort of filed accounts, you know you from local countries even for the Global players, so there's a country source and then we look for industry sources as well and around the world industry associations Provide often quite good survey type information of their members and You know indicators of growth and size of market and the use of software and so on and What we do is triangulate between these different sources in order to try and home in on What we would regard as the best estimate of the market and you know, you can think of that process as a kind of Giant game of Sudoku Where you know it has to add up to a hundred percent because that's what it must be And whether that's by industry or by country or for a particular provider Interesting based on their like total GDP that you're looking at a certain percentage well industry has to add up Yeah, and it's more than that, you know, it can be a Within a country sometimes you will find, you know curious surprisingly Sometimes it's surprising countries have done this their national statistics office Will have done surveys about the way that money is Invested because that you know governments are interested in this so is the tax man in most countries and that and they all provide information that way and they can divide up the categories of spend into and If we're lucky for a particular country it will include software and sometimes categories of Software as well and that just gives you another view to compare with the reports by the financial reports the legal reports the legally binding reports from from the Vendors this triangulation in game of Sudoku is very interesting to be able to figure out what these truths are and be able to share them with other Entities that are then organizations that are trying to query this data to make it to help it to help make sense of what's happening around the World where they should be investing or looking. Yeah, if you're just seeing software in Asia, well, is that broken down further? Can we double-click and see all the separate categories of software? With our data the answer is yes. Yes. Actually, you can double-click down to individual vendors That's great. You can double-click again to get to product groups from individual that's crazy Whoa, so okay, so we're talking like double-click into Asia double-click into software double-click into Into customer relationship management CRM stuff then in fact with that's out of our scope We're just engineering software Yeah, just engineering software double-click into engineering Your software double-click into CAD or PLM right you double-click in PLM Maybe and then you can see based on on a group. So maybe it's like preventative maintenance, right? And then maybe you double-click into that Yes, we tend by the time you get to the yes, we do offer an analysis by technologies But they're the the high-level technologies. So CAD CAE You know digital manufacturing PLM that sort of level. Yeah, yeah, but we also provide the numbers for an individual company So, you know, sometimes companies use those to to judge market share That's because we can see you know each named provider And you can see then how much like PTC or how much Autodesk is affecting like North America In terms of engineering software who owns or what percentage of the market shares? Absolutely. Yes, that is all part of our data and We routinely send our date the data that we have about an individual company to that company for comment and Yeah, some wow and sometimes they'll reply and say yes That's for accurate or the public companies are really quite restricted legally on what they can say to us But I think in all cases where we've made You know significant errors in our estimates A company concerned has been able to point us towards a document that has been published That we can then use That's our relationship in the community is for everyone You know, it is useful if our estimates are good estimates. Yeah more data. Yeah, absolutely very interesting it's it's Every industry needs a combashy to be doing Analysis work every industry not just engineering software biotech needs one neuroscience needs one in my opinion. Yes, because I suppose at root of what we are trying to do is to provide a rational basis for decision-making Chris and We see that rational basis as being the numbers, you know understand the numbers understand what the industry is trying to do and From that you can get your resource allocation right and you can make optimum decisions Yeah, and then it also kind of you know speaks to on a on a geopolitical level. There are so many different Countries that have certain amounts of investment into something like engineering software. Well, how much is Asia investing into engineering software? How much is the North America? What are some of the maybe like? Approximates that you can that you can teach us about that that specific question because it does it many in many ways seem like Asia's And engineering is just you know, four and a half billion people So much GDP so much ability to build build create across a lot of land Is that kind of is there like a big curve heading up in for there? Yes, and part of it is numbers. So if you look at China and employment numbers, you know, actually I was just Looking at The the number of engineers employed in China Is about the same as the total number of people employed in North America? Wow So it's like 400 million or something. It you know, I can't but it's a lot exactly. It's a lot. Yes now if you drill down and look at engineering software spend Per engineer Or then it's very different, you know, so I think China comes out at, you know, maybe five hundred dollars per engineer Whereas in other countries it can be two or three thousand dollars Spend per engineer. What does that mean in terms of software? This is revenue received by the engineering software providers So it'll per employee per per engineer per engineer in that kind by all of them You just just add it all up. Okay, total engineering software revenue in China. Yeah Yeah, divide by the number of professional engineers gotta get a number. Oh god, the same thing in the Netherlands The Netherlands you get a different in a much higher number a much higher number Which means well the interesting it's kind of There's an element of development of the economy. What stage are they at? But in fact if you look at in that particular case The Average country spend and then look at it at an individual industry This is where you know, why do we do all this in the industry related stuff? So take automotive is one that most clients are interested in or maybe all clients are interested in Actually the ratio between the spend per engineer in automotive and The average spend per engineer for the country as a whole That is much less different between China and other countries, you know So the relative intensity of spend in Automotive is kind of the same across these countries and doing that sort of ratio analysis for the marketing people You know, they get all sorts of Insights into well, what is the state of development in this country? How does this country? perceive a particular industry, yeah, and That helps we believe that that helps our clients develop strategies and decide You know how many sales teams how many Support people should we be forming partnerships to address? You know opportunities, which we're perhaps not covering at the moment you can pull something relevant to that out of the data and Then this is this is so important to be able to make these analysis that have these relevant pulls that you can pull from the data what about this This idea that so many of the the people I saw this in some of your blog posts that most of the it's trades people and machine operators is where That we could potentially serve available Markets more that as if if is does that mean that most of the people at the top these architects and designers engineers and technicians and then Management supervisors this sort of these the lesser areas. Does that mean that those lesser areas are? That the way that we need to that we need to disseminate the the the CAD and disseminate the the just engineering designs Down to the trades people and machine operators that that's what we're trying to include We're trying to have them be included in understanding what's been happening in the smaller amounts of people To a certain extent yes So so the yes part of that is you know, that's part of the story of the single source of truth type thinking of the The the fully digital environment the digital twins the connected environment, you know Yes, if that's going to work, you need everyone to have an appropriate access to that information So they all everybody is Singing from the same songbook, you know, and I'm on the same page in the song book in fact, I think the Biggest effect we've seen right now with our clients is when we start talking about employment and looking at some of these numbers and you're right, you know, there are these large numbers Larger numbers of technicians and machine operators than there are engineers, which is just how things work It's possible to sort to trigger a conversation that is all around well What do we offer to those people so our client a software vendor? We'll be looking at that and saying oh, I know about what we do with engineers But hold on there are these technicians who are working with them What do we offer to those technicians and often the answer is well, it's the same they need the same software But for for the for their customers the real end users to understand that maybe The vendor has to learn to present the information about their offer in a different way Yes, to a different audience and then suddenly, you know that the the the Managers of the technicians and the operators Realize that they should be spending budget in this area as well So it's that kind of effect often. It's just looking at the data and triggering conversations about Market strategies, who are we going to address? How should we reach those people? That's where the value comes from the sort of combination of market-size information and employment type information Yeah, yeah, and the power of storytelling the power of everyone singing from the same page in the song book Yeah, yeah, and then out of the you know There's also this you were explaining the difference between your qualitative and quantitative market data Give us again the the the idea of this regarding your IOT charter program. So IOT is exploding The IOT is absolutely exploding. We got started in that area I know five seven years ago But we approached it from the kind of engineering tools point of view So we were looking at the tools used for embedded systems development Which was what you know, and that was exactly what was going on Companies which had previously been working in mainly mechanical in environments found themselves working with Embedded electronics and software in the electronics to build their their products and You know as the market developed and the major providers started putting together IOT platform software the kind of middleware between the connected devices and the Applications which are going to drive control monitor the these connected Devices we anticipated that you know, it was really Just extending our coverage of this tools area the embedded systems tools to incorporate this middleware But to make sure of that we established the charter program and we invited in the clients who were potential Buyers of this data to talk to us about the research program and we got some really interesting responses because it turns out that actually our clients were more interested in the drivers of The market that they were addressing of middleware and tools What were the drivers going to be kind of? Because they were trying to satisfy they are trying to satisfy a wide range of applications from connected Workers to connected production to connected assets to connected products in in in in the field Connected buildings connected cities, you know all of these things can be serviced by this middleware So what the charter program achieved was to? Open our eyes, I suppose To our clients the vendors of this middleware as to what they needed in order to be able to plan their business And that is guiding our research in this area. And so we're putting much more into understanding those Connected application areas than simple sizing of that sort of middleware Market so that's new for us And I think it's really good feedback that we've had from our charter program members This also speaks to the point that you said in your talk to about data being the new oil Because the amount of what they have to deal with the mid-middleware figuring out the sensor data making it applicable to Humans that are trying to make decisions and they're in the daily lives or even artificial intelligence agent making Decisions that the sheer amount of data that is now We're trying to make sense of and make applicable to our lives. It's just is now It's just beyond I think it's every two years. We make more data than we did in the in previous previous than that so now in terms of The future that you think we're heading to you know You have engineering software kind of under a pretty strong like global magnifying Lens you're you're looking into this area of the world that area the world breaking the engineering software down into different Levels here seeing how things are ramping up in certain areas. Which is really cool But what is the future that they're all kind of pointing towards a lot of people see cloud a lot of people see See generative design. There's all these different sort of futures. Where do you see the trends moving towards? I'm smiling because I've had a conversation in this area where I My conversation partner and I found the easiest way to describe that vision was to refer to Star Trek. Yeah. Yeah, that's it What do we expect to happen in Star Trek? You know Scotty asks Computer, you know, so maybe in the future Scotty will ask Alexa, but do you know or Siri or whoever it is? Yeah and In talking about Design and you know, what do you expect in Star Trek? Of course the computer can simulate any kind of change that Scotty is suggesting Yeah, to the machines and the devices You know on the enterprise and I think that is actually a trend which is in place now and is accelerating and it's Simple expectation, you know a couple of maybe five years ago There was a change made in the way that A university I believe it was Boston University, but please don't quote me on this because it was a definitely an east coast university The way they taught programming to engineering students So they had been working with you know, traditional Programming languages so C or even Pascal, you know to To try and embed the all of the kind of computer science type concept But they moved and they moved towards the Mathworks products They they had a specific deal with that company and they used MATLAB and Simulink as the basis of their new Approach to teach programming to engineering students. Now. What's significant about that the Simulink as you can kind of hear in the name enables very Direct visual simulation of the code that you are Creating so you can kind of see what's going on, you know, you move boxes around the screen you make links as the way of building A model and What I remember impressed me was the professor involved reported a I think it was a it was either a five or six x Increase in the number of students who took that class And what was the reason for that was because it just was more interactive It was you know programs were no longer these static things Which you had to delve into the data and what look at readouts of variables to see what was going on You could just see it. Yeah, the same's happening in my opinion with engineering design designers want and need and appreciate some kind of Easily linked Simulation to what they're doing and if you think about that that is so close to You know, well Scotty would have done we without asking the computer, you know, I'm I'm gonna move I'm gonna stick strengthen this beam by making this thicker and because in my mind in Scotty's mind I know that's going to be able to absorb the side loads on this in this particular mechanism Or something like that Of course in the more complicated environment you need the simulation software To give you that sort of feedback As to what have the changes that you've made actually delivered Yeah, so I think that's going to be a big deal You know first of all the growth of simulation generally in its current mode, which is kind of Design it and simulate it and design it and simulate it. It's kind of that loop The advanced systems are more interactive than that where there's immediate right away immediate feedback available And that's the way people like working Yeah, it feels as though that the simulation engineering Simulation is able to run through the permutations faster than the human creative capability can And yeah, yeah, and that's when that's when we get lots of star trek in Yeah, yeah futures and stuff like that. So absolutely. I'm happy. I'm happy that you bring that up and then out of the The you know 21st centuries here exponential technology all these things are happening What would be something important for kids and adults to pick up as a primary skill set? I suspect Well Skill set I'm going to answer a slightly different question Because I still think it's the desire to take something apart to see how it works That is at the absolute core of whether someone is going to enjoy and feel fulfilled In this industry, you know from from almost as a user of the software as a developer of the software You know, it's it's that kind of instinct Um, that's not really well. Sometimes it's the skill set. I think it is Um, I think that is very much. So what you said is definitely a skill set Tinkering taking things apart putting them back together understanding how things work instead of them being black box This is very important, but we have such a limited amount of Neural real estate to decide which items we want to dedicate our stimuli to and it's also true I I agree and it's it's becoming harder to do that. Um, you know, so for example, uh I was talking to a Provider of electrical test equipment, you know, absolutely for electrical type engineers Just the world of take it apart. See how it works. Oh, let's see, you know, we can make this better kind of thinking however um, they had realized that they were going to be able to make better more functional products at a lower cost if instead of The physical electronics that they had always used in the past they replaced a lot of that with um, uh a microcontroller and software to provide the functions Learn behold, there is no longer any way of just poking into the circuit to read a voltage and look at You know current flow and so on to find out what's going on Suddenly you do need new skills to look inside that integrated circuit and find out Why the software has decided to apply five volts suddenly to this this term or whatever it is So I think there are certain skills which are not It's still the instinct to take it apart that is the driver for you wanting to build these skills But yes, you do need to learn other things as well to be able to You know take that sort of stuff apart. Yeah Peter this has been super fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us on the show and teaching us about your work and about kambashi About just understanding what is going on in an engineering software across the world in its finest granularity So thank you Delighted. Thank you for inviting me an interesting conversation. Many thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks everyone for tuning in We greatly appreciate it. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below Let us know what you think check out the links to peter's work to kambashi as well Also, check out the links to kofas And go and build the future support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in all of simulations links are below And go and manifest your destiny into the world. Thanks everyone for tuning in and we will see you soon. Peace