 We're back with more conversations right here on the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa first major conversation President Buhari you might have had already by now has conferred national awards on 447 Nigerians including the Director General of the World Trade Organization and Foma Finance Minister Dr. Ngozi Okunjweala Speaker of the House of Representatives Femiq Bajabia Mila, Minister of Works and Housing Babatunde Fahshola, those who were awarded the honor of a grand commander of the order of the Niger GCON Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria and Honorable Justice Ibrahim Tanko Muhammad who was there before him as a former Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN The Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations Ms. Amina J. Mohamed also received that award and renowned diplomat Pravasati Jani Muhammad Bande also received the GCON. Fantastic news. I think one of the presidential candidates made a point that you had two women getting the GCON. Nigerians with the Honor of a Commander of the Order of the Federal Republic CFR Femi Bajabia Mila, Deputy Senate President Ove Omoagege, Secretary to the Government of the Federation Boss Mustafa Dr. Fola Shadeh Yemi Esan We have former Speaker of the House of Representatives Yakubu Dogara, Justice Kudirat M. Kekere Okun, Justice Musa Datijo Muhammad, Justice Manika Bol Naan and Dongan Mansim. Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Ngozi Okunjweala Justice Ulukayo Day Ariwala the Chief Justice of Nigeria CJN Well, I think considering the national honours on deserving Nigerians, it's not anything new. It's what is happening worldwide and it's a basis for that really because the essence of commanding people for having worked for the progress of society is to encourage other people to also do the same. So, we have it in so many ways. I mean, it doesn't have to be national awards. Organizations, families reward the members of the same family who have done exceptionally well. They celebrate birthdays. Societies also give awards at the local government level, village level, for people who have been outstanding because their contributions or what they have done have helped uplifting people and making lives generally for people. So, at the national level it is a wonderful thing. But I think that the problem is the value, the kind of value a government attaches to such things. The kind of people and that is dependent on the kind of people that the government gives these awards to. If the awards are given to the right kind of people, then it sends the right kind of message to citizens. But if it is given to the wrong set of people, then obviously you are sending the wrong message or the wrong message to the rest of society. And that is why it has to be something that should be done to ensure that the right message is sent. And that means that anybody that is going to be awarded or given this award must be somebody that is outstanding and somebody that is worthy of emulation. So, one has to be careful to get it right. It's not just to give awards for the purpose of giving awards. Any time these awards have to be given, you are making a statement about the values of the government, about the values of the nation state. But again, if I hope, I do not have no claim to you, but if you look at what we have been doing over the years, virtually every award of these honors have been shouted in kutrovasi, one form of kutrovasi or the other. And that is ultimate because essentially, I mean, if the wrong set of people are not being awarded or being recognized, then you realize that there is something with our data and our way of keeping records. Because sometimes you have these people who are being given awards. The government is not even aware that the people that they are giving awards have passed. Or that some of these awards have already been given to the same people they are now conferring the same awards to. So, some of these embarrassments have characterized giving of awards in the past. But most importantly is the quality of people you are giving these awards to. And that is where Nigeria has to have issues with. Well, so as you have rightly mentioned, every other time it gets in with a lot of controversy. And this year is actually not different because there's been several criticism by some civil society groups and other Nigerians. And mostly people say that this you have a lot of persons who are politicians and political aids at the expense of many Nigerians who are deserving and who have actually made difference in political and critical spaces outside of the headlines. So, I'd like you to describe this award. Do you think that that's the case? Is it a list of favor or a list of merit? No, I think there is more of the political consideration in the given of these awards. This is what has characterized most awards in the country. And that gives you an idea of the nature and character of the government that we have had. The nature and character of the people that struggled the corridors of government in Nigeria. For instance, you want to look at such awards. And you want to look at, you want to see people like Barista Femifalana, for instance, a critical government. You want to see, as at the time she was alive, you want to see people like... This call is now being reported. You know, people like Ganefao and me, you know, the late Chimo Bani. These are radical, these are people that are against government and government policies. But the general public recognizes that these are people that have been more meaningful in their contribution to the growth and development of this country. Much more than the politicians that have been honored because of their loyalty to the government of the day. Because that is what is all about. This is about a reward to people who have been loyal to the government. People who have supported government regardless of the merits or the merits of government over the years. So that tells you that there is something wrong with the list. For instance, if you want to even do a breakdown of even this list, you see a lot of politicians, the Senate president. And then the Speaker of the House of Representatives, these are politicians. What essentially have they done really that is outstanding, that is different from what their predecessors had done. Because that's only this tendency to reward them. You know, you have a Senate that right now, and the National Assembly right now, that is not even up to scratch in terms of what is predecessor the National Assembly had done over the years. You know, I'm not saying that even those was performed with standing qualities. But you can see a National Assembly that has been tattooing to the details of the executive for the past seven years. And so you see the leadership being ruined. Chike Chure, are you there please? Can you hear us? Okay, we seem to have lost contact with Chike Chure, whose sterling analysis has been quite enthralling. We hope to get him back so we can continue that. I was really enjoying where he was coming from. So quite interesting. I mean, from what we see, the GCFR is customary confed on former heads of state. The GCON title is also confed on vice president and former vice presidents. You have also the president of the Senate and the chief justice of the Federation also receiving that GCON title. But recipients of GCON also, I mean, the peks are coming with this, you know. It's not just on paper. The peks are coming with it. I was interested in knowing, okay, if the vice president, the former Senate president, et cetera, chief justices are the ones that get GCON, how come we have the likes of Okonja Weala and Amina Muhammad also, Tijani Muhammad Bande getting this award. Tijani Muhammad Bande is Nigeria's permanent representative to the United Nations. Amina Muhammad is the deputy secretary general of the United Nations. One I've had a pleasure of meeting an Italian fantastic woman. And of course, Ongozi Okonja Weala needs to introduction. She needs to introduction. So it probably means that the GCON title, which is a grand commander of the order of the Niger, it's not an exclusive reserve of vice presidents, former vice presidents and the chief justices of Nigeria. But do we have a cheeky, shoot it back on the line, please? Yes, I'm back on the line. So like I was saying, there are some good things. I mean, some of the people that have been awarded, I mean, we have no choice than to rejoice with them because these are people that we all know, the general society without knowledge, without much disputation that they have done well. Somebody like Okonja Weala is somebody who has influenced, transcends the shores of this country and has brought a lot of merits to the country. And then of course entertainment is something that we have been exporting out of this country whether it's our musicians, it's our artists, they have done exceedingly well. So the award on Bonaboi and his colleagues, I mean, these exceedingly well received and a few others. But you now have, like I said, I have issues with the politicians. I do not think most of these politicians, if any of them actually deserves any commendation. Because they have been taking care of themselves and fedring their nests from the resources of this country over a period of time. And then you look at a contentious and controversial name on that list and that is the former Chief Justice of the Federation of the Supreme Court. That is Tanko. He left in a dust of controversy, very major controversy because for the very first time all the judges of the Supreme Court did a petition against the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice. He's unprecedented, I have not seen in any part of the world where it happens. And as a result of the pressure, I think the man resigned under that cloud of corruption. How would you go ahead and give a few months after that happened and the matter and people were calling for him to be investigated by the anti-corruption agencies. And then the president puts him among the list of people who deserve this national honor. So don't judge this case and other cases as well as others in the past. This is what we have always said. So this is like a committee of members of a club honoring their own. Sometimes that is the impression you have with a sprinting of a few people within the corporate sector in the country that have actually done well in the country. So this is exactly what has been going on. I think most of the politicians that are under list should not be discarded. The government of Delta State and most of the Soviet people. You don't think the government of Delta State should be there. Before we come to the politicians, staying with Tanku Muhammad, whether he left in the cloud of dust or not, I mean it's well documented, but some would argue that whether he left in the cloud of dust or not, that it is a statutory conferment on the Chief Justice of Nigeria to receive such an honor. So it is his entitlement. No, no, no. I do not think so. You are talking about a merit award. So what you are saying is that these people are deserving. These people have served this country meritoriously. These people have served, have left their offices with impeccable and indelible records. This is the basis. So are you saying that if somebody commits murder, but simply because the office occupies is so high that that office is deserving of an award that regardless of what the man has done, when you give him an award, it's not the award you are giving the man, but actually the office that you are giving that award. So this does not make sense. Sorry to interrupt your message. If someone was maybe president, for instance, or maybe vice president and he committed murder, it would mean that he would have been convicted by a court of competent jurisdiction and probably received a sentence whichever way or if fine. But it could be argued that Tanku Muhammad has faced any panel or been tried by any panel, be found by any investigation, no committee was set up, no court had convicted him. So we have nothing to hold on to deny him when you want to err on the side of caution when it becomes a matter of public interest. It is like the discussion, the entire discussion about the former minister of communication and the digital economy. Patami, the issue about his linkages with terrorism and all the stories in the past even though the man had said he had repented. But because the issue is such a very sensitive issue that has implications for this country, when the government has to err, let it err on the part of caution, that is exactly what I'm saying. Because we've had, this is not a pattern, the former minister, I mean, EFCC chairman, Magu was was was indicted by the Abdi Salami panel that was set up by the federal government. He was indicted and a few months after that he was promoted within the Nigerian police force. So what message are you sending? What are you trying to say about your views as a government on corruption? So that's what the government should have done. They shouldn't give us stories. I mean, they are impending allegations of corruption against him, whether it has been proven or not. The normal thing in any claim, any reasonable claim is that when there is serious, egregious accusation against you, what you do is that you step aside and allow the authorities to actually do the investigation and they generate you or not, you know, or indict you. That is what happens. But in Nigeria we want to err on the part of the people who are supposed, who are accused of having committed crimes. Welchud, let's move on quickly. So surprises now. Were you really surprised that, you know, the likes of former senate president Bukalasaraki did not make, you know, that particular list? Well, the people who have made the list, they said the present senate president is no different from Bukalasaraki. They occupy the same office if that's what we are saying. But Bukalasaraki happens to be somebody in the opposition. And that is not to say that when somebody in the opposition has not done well, you should also not give that person whatever he or she deserves. But well, perhaps another government can come in tomorrow and they also recognize Saraki. But like I said, I'm not enamored by the fact that politicians whose role in this country have been inglorious and to a larger extent injurious. And I'm not saying that we have proven cases against them. But there is this general feeling that the politicians have not done too well in this country and that this national assembly has cut out so much to the dictates of the executive in as much as when, as long as the executive was airing in so many ways, the national assembly failed to call them to order. So perhaps this is a reward for the leadership of the national assembly. But just quickly before Kofi comes in now, the likes of Victor Moses, if we look at his story and his antecedent, especially when we have that conflict in Kaduna that led to the sacrifice that his parent had contributed, and then of course he found himself on asylum outside of the country and then was adopted to a family, eventually was discovered as a great talent, and then he played for the team at the time. Then at some point he had to choose and then he chose to play for Nigeria, the Supoagals. Don't you think that he should have actually been considered? He's one among so many Nigerians that have done very commendable or have acted in a very proud way for the country. Look, this award, I think he's being given by people who do not understand what merit means, who do not understand what the nation state means. Occasionally, yes, you have a sprinkling of people who have actually done well for this country, main captains of industries and people who have set up conglomerates and employed people, gave employment to Nigerians and all that. Then like I said, the entertainment industry, it talked about Victor Moses and so on. Obviously there are so many people that are desiring of this award that are not getting it. And I'm not saying that there is any way to compensate every single Nigerian that is desiring of this award. What you just do is that you have a representative sample of Nigerians. And that's what you have, is a representative of the Nigerians. In general, you have people, captains of industries, you have politicians, you have employment people, you have sportsmen and all that. So all of this is supposed to be a general representation of the rest of Nigeria. And so you should be able to pick the best from all of these people, people without stigma. And I'm not sure that this award that has been granted to a lot of Nigerians has actually passed that test of having people who largely have been above state, largely, I mean, physically been above. We are not saying that anybody is perfect. But when you are operating in the public terrain, you have to be sure of the people that you are actually bringing forward for national awards. And I'm not sure I'm very much impressed with all of these. Not just this one, even the ones that we have had in the past, every single one of them has had some level of controversy of the other anyway. Some distinguished Nigerians Chike Churi. Some distinguished Nigerians like the late professor Chinwachibi Chief Sisi Ono have in the past rejected their national awards. In your mind, is there any reason why any of these awardees should have rejected this award? So in my mind, is there any reason why any of the awardees in this current class should have rejected their award? It depends. I think don't also forget that we had the controversy over the post two months award that was granted what is the name? The former Ghanifawemi people were telling the children because of the rule he played in Nigeria and how he was harassed by the governments of the day. They were telling the children the family to reject it but the family had their reasons for accepting it. But Chinwachibi had a question on the fact of the crisis that was going on in the southeast and the extrajudicia kings by the federal government against the people of the southeast and he said that for as long as his region is in mention crisis that there is no way he would accept an award from a government that is perpetuating the crisis in that place. So for Sisi Ono there is always a reason and that is not to say that when things change and such awards are still on the table that they will not accept them or their families may not accept them but I think it is on the basis of isn't there a reason that accept or reject because of time I just need to ask this follow-up question some could point to the fact that on the 20th of October 2020 young Nigerians were massacred revealed by the panel at the leki togit in leki legos Nigeria maybe that could be a reason to make a political statement saying for that mask we are not taking these awards you have to get to the bottom of this and let's see who was behind this maybe people have different views about different things and so there are those people who really felt very bad and very angry about what happened at leki and wanted the matter that these authorities to get to the bottom of the matter of course of people will tell you that the authorities have gotten to the bottom of the matter and the legal state government has brought out its report the federal government some other state government has raised but what people are seeing by the various governments as well as the federal government what happened at the leki togit but for a lot of people who are not too political they might just see it as one of those things that happen in the life of a country and then it doesn't really caught so much ice with them it doesn't release anything of a major significance but for every serious Nigerian what happened at that place is of major significance he showed the capacity of the state for mischief of a very dark kind if I will use that expression so it's a legitimate question if you say look I question this award that is being given by a government that was responsible for what happened at leki togit but like I said it's a matter of opinion that some people will feel comfortable and they might not feel very angry but for that leki togit I think it's about people's general understanding and the people's general temperament okay very interesting analysis by you chikichu we want to thank you very much for your time and hopefully we will be back next year to analyze this again thank you very much alright thank you we'll have a further discussion in a very few moments or minutes from now we'll be talking about a very important subject after this break please stay with us