 Cool. So, today I will talk about open source hardware in industrial use. And I will try to convince you that open source hardware and industrial electronics are a pretty good match. Who am I? My name is Svetan Uzunov. I am from Molymax. We are a small company in Bulgaria. We do electronic design, different electronic devices. And all our products are designed and built in Bulgarian clothing. And many of them are with open source hardware license and certified by the open source hardware association. So, what is open source hardware? I always begin my talks about open source hardware with the definition. And you will see later why I do this. Open source hardware association has a definition what exactly is open source hardware? Because different people before this definition has been interpreting what is open, what is closed in many different ways. So, to stop all this speculation, open source hardware association made a definition when it clearly says open source hardware, this hardware which you can learn from it, study, modify, even sell it. And all the sources has to be in such format so people can modify it. So, if you just publish your schematic in GPEG format, this is okay. People can see what is inside but they cannot modify it. They cannot sell it. So, it's not open source hardware. So, how we benefit from the open source hardware? For me, the first and most important is that we share our knowledge. We share what we know. If we look back human history, most of the achievements in the science, in the biology, in the sociology are made for the last 300 years. And why? Did we got smarter? Did we got bigger brains or something like this? No. People are same thousand years. For thousand years but what happened? 500 years ago, Gutenberg invented easy way to print the books. So, people can store their knowledge in the books. We know we have books for many thousand years but it was just for the elite. To make book was very hard. People draw with special skills, draw these pictures in the books for years. And they was very expensive. Not too many people have access to this knowledge. And what happened? In 200 years, these books become so cheap that more and more people can start to read and get this knowledge. So, they could collaborate better. And this is what happens now. 30 years ago, we got even more powerful tool to share our knowledge, internet. So, people now can collaborate all around the world in same project. And this actually made the best for all open source project. If you see, 30 years ago, there was not so many open source project. But now, since we have the internet, the tool to exchange our knowledge very fast and very efficient, we got tons of open source hardware, open source software. And this is what accelerates the way we achieve our knowledge. So, I think open source hardware and software, they have very special place for the human development, for all these achievements in the future. You see this maker movement, it changed everything. It changed a lot of people who was not interested in technology and electronics. Now, they are not afraid to use it because it's approachable. You have tools, you can design your PCBs, and you don't have to pay a big money to have tools for designing the PCBs. And this is how all these open source hardware projects start to flourish. Then, the second thing is, with the open source, we can show what we can. There is no better way to show your capability than to make open source project, because everything is open. People can open your repository and to see what you have done, what is your track record. I run Olimax for almost 30 years. And, let's say, 20 years ago, when I had new customers, he has come to us, inspect everything, and said, give me a reference for your customers, let's see what you have done. Now, they don't ask these questions. Why? Because we put everything on the Internet, so they can check and see what we can do. Building a community is very essential for making a product, even not an open source project. Especially for the open source project, but Raspberry Pi is not an open source project, but they have a huge community, so they benefit from this. Every product which attracts a bigger community is more successful. What made, for instance, an expressive system successful? Because they had so low price, first, that a lot of people start to design with their boards. And now, there is a real tech, there is Qualcomm. There is a huge giants which can produce cheaper boards than them. But you have to be very, very different in the pricing to attract some community, because before expressive, expressive was not the first company which made the Wi-Fi chips. Texas Instruments made this maybe five years before them, but the Texas Instruments board cost something like $30. And then, expressive systems come and made the board for $3. This is 10 times difference. This is huge motivation people to start learning your product and to use it. Now, real tech and Qualcomm, they also make Wi-Fi board which has a lot of more features. They have more memory, faster processor, better stacks, dual Wi-Fi support. But they cost again $3, so people say, why should I learn new technology when I already have existing technology with work for me? And I have huge community, I can ask questions, get help. If they offer their new chips for $0.30, that will make sense. Everybody will say, yeah, but I will have a huge savings, this project is successful and I start making. But it's not so easy to offer $0.30 Wi-Fi chip now, because expressive got the right place, the right product with the right pricing and attracted huge community. If you search Google Trends, they are now more popular than Arduino. So building community is very essential to project to be successful. Open source hardware benefits that you get free feedback for everything, for all your failures, all the things you didn't see when you designed your board and we had discussion yesterday about RISC-5, computers and so on. And the guy was asking me, okay, but how you can prove that they released the very log files and they put the same thing in the chip? They might say, this is the very log file, but to put in the chip something different. And I say, yeah, I don't know this, but I'm sure there will be someone, if this is open, he will verify it, because he has the tools, he has the knowledge for this. It's same with the Linux drivers. I'm not expert. I use Linux, but I believe that they are more capable than me, people who can verify if there is a hidden backdoors and everything works like it should. So getting this feedback is also something which every open source project is benefiting. And it gains the confidence that you don't hide anything from your customers. And of course, the most important is collaboration. And because of this feedback, you make better products. You don't benefit only you from the open source. Your component suppliers also benefit from this and the most obi-q is all-winner. We start using all-winner chips. Why? Because there was Linux and C community, which was very user-friendly. And if we have some problem with our boards, we can ask questions and get feedback from the community. And we start to release open source hardware with all-winner chips. And people start to make different boards based on our project. So all-winner is selling this, for instance, 820 chips already for six or seven years. This is something they never did before. Last March they came to us in Olimax and they said, we never expect that we can sell chips so long time. Why these people keep buying this technology? This is because they use it to be in the consumer market. And then you have lifetime for your product maximum one year. After one year this chip is already obsolete. There is somebody with more cores, with more memories, with more futures and they have to run and what they sell for one year, that's it. Then the new chip is coming. Now eight years later nobody makes tablets with 820. Nobody uses 820 for TV boxes and things like this. But people put them in the projects, in industrial projects, in other projects and they don't want to change their design every year because they made a product, they made a certification which costs a lot of money and they want to produce it as long as possible without any change because every change costs money. And this is how the suppliers benefit from the open source technologies. When you make your technology open, many people start to produce derivative products with it and the supplier sells the chips for longer time. Some suppliers found this and we got emails like can you put our chip in your next product? We will give you free issue, tell me what number of chips you want because a lot of people just copy, they don't change anything and what we put in the design, they just copy and they see a sales opportunity for this and they say use our chips and we will give it free of charge but put it in your design. Of course we don't do this because it will not work in the long term. Why people like open source hardware? Because even people who don't make open source hardware they like to learn and there is no better way to learn how something works if you just see how somebody else already did it. So this starts to become a marketing tool. People see, yeah, people love open source hardware. Let's make and pretend that our products is also open source so you can see a lot of boards which are called open spec, running open source and blah blah blah. They want to have open in their name but basically they are not open source and this is where open source hardware association did a great job because if somebody says my product is open give me your certificate. Let me see if it passed the certification because there is a clear definition what you have to publish and non-conditionally because there are tons of Kickstarter products which say our product is open source, we will open it after we sell 1,000 pieces. Okay, go and certify this with the open source hardware association and we will accept that it is open source. They say there has to be no conditions, no registrations, no give me your email and I will give you the files. No, you have to publish it and everybody has to be able to download it, study, modify, sell. If you don't do this, you are not open source. How the customers benefit from the open source? It's obvious. They have no vendor dependence, why? Because everything is there and if, for instance, only makes tomorrow closes they have all the full documentation so they can manufacture by themselves or just pay somebody to manufacture it for them and this pushes the prices low. You cannot charge unreasonable amounts of money because everybody can compete with you. You can see what happened with Erdogan. It started with $30 board for just one processor. Now the internet is flooded with boards for $1, $2, $3. Why? Because it's open source and who can manufacture more efficiently will sell it and maybe Erdogan team now sells one per 100 sold boards. I don't know the statistics, but I assume because you must be crazy to pay $30 when you get 10 boards for the same amount. Of course, if you don't want to support the project to move on and to keep the development works. And this leads to long-term availability. I told you how it works for the SOC vendors. They sell more chips and they even cannot figure out what happens with this chip. Why do they sell it so well? And you give to your customers longer availability because of this. Many people use this product. The SOC vendor has motive to keep producing it so people benefit from longer delivery availability. And you have security for your business because you have full control on the documentation on everything on this process, on this product. Open source hardware allow easy customization. This means if you don't like something, you have the files. Change what you don't like and make your own product. And just imagine if you can do this with commercial closed source. I don't like the microphone on my iPhone. I have to change it. No, you can't because you don't have any idea what is inside. How it's made. Or I want to remove the part which spies on me. No, you cannot because you don't have. You cannot customize closed source products. Another benefit is that the customers can collaborate with you. We have some products which has 12, 15 revisions. This is really hell. But why we do it? Because we get a very valuable feedback and they say, if you make this inside your product, it will become better. And we start to thinking and say, yes, he's right. We have to change this and we make a new revision of the board. So customers suggest us something to do and if we find it reasonable, we do it. Guess how it will work if you have a closed source product and you say to Microsoft, for instance, make the surface laptop with some different screen or different keyboard on at this future. It will be not possible. And at the end of the day, the customer receives a better product. What the industrial customers want. First, they need reliable operation 24-7 because most of this industrial application, they are on machines. And if this machine fail, it costs a lot of money or it might even cost human life. So reliable operation is first requirement if you want to do something industrial. Then they need long-term supply. Why? Because when you make an industrial machine, you have to certify a lot of standards. You have to meet a lot of standards. And then once it is certified, you cannot touch anything or you have to pay again for all this certification. We have one customer who is making huge motor power electronic drivers. They are big like this room and they are powering motors for oil platforms, gas pumping station, converse. And we released IMX-233 board back 12 years ago. And that was our first open source Olinuxino board. 9 core, 64 megabyte from total nonsense in nowadays. But we have this customer who is buying thousands of boards every year and they don't want to touch it because Freescale had 10 years supply program for this and they started manufacturing 2008 in 2018 they said, it's your last time buy. Decide what quantity you want to buy because we will not manufacture this anymore. Nobody wants it. And it was costing something like 6 euro, more than double core, 1.2 gigahertz cortex. And I asked our customers, what is your forecast? We want it forever. They said, no. Just give me some number. And he said, okay, get 10k units. We will try to implement something meanwhile. So we can continue for at least two or three years more to supply these boards for him and he will change his design because Freescale doesn't produce this process anymore. It runs Linux kernel 2.6 or 2.8. But they don't touch it. They said this is our connectivity board and everything is done with this board and we don't change the specs. So long term supply is very important decision maker when somebody is in industrial business. White operating temperature. This is, of course, again related to the reliable operation. These machines generate a lot of noise. It's a huge current which passes through this board. So you have to be noise immune. You have to operate in harsh environment in white temperature from minus to plus because it works outside. And what other people from the industry want is all revision of the boards because they certified their product with revision G. Now we make already revision K but they say, no, I don't need it. It works for me. I want to buy revision G. We do this for them because there is no problem. We have all the documentation and everything so if they say I want revision G, okay, we can make the revision G. But it is with this and this and this but I don't care. It works in our device. We don't want to change. Something happens a few months ago when Raspberry Pi changed revision Raspberry Pi 3 to Raspberry Pi 4. Suddenly we start to get a lot of orders for smallish companies for 100 and 200 and I start to asking why. And he said they switched to Raspberry Pi 4 and stopped producing Raspberry Pi 3 for six months. So I cannot make my product anymore and we had to change the board because otherwise next time when they release Raspberry Pi 5 they will stop making Raspberry Pi 4. They don't stop it forever but because the demand for Raspberry 4 as new board is too big, they just say, okay, six months we will just produce Raspberry Pi 4 so we saturate the market and then we will keep producing Raspberry Pi 3. But imagine if you have a product and you have to stop production for six months. Your customers will go somewhere else. Here is this big variable speed drivers for oil, gas pumps and converters which use this obsolete ARM 9 chip inside for communication but they don't touch it for 12 years. It's a huge machine. This one is another customer who is making agriculture tractors self-driving machines with the GPS navigation and they buy a lot of A13. A13 is obsolete. It's already not on all-winner website. If you go to all-winner website you will not find trace of A13 because nobody makes tablets with A13 but we have special agreement with them because if we want to order they can produce on demand but the minimum quantity is 100,000 pieces. So we have demand for this. These guys make something like 2,000 tractors per month which for me is crazy what they do with so many tractors but they buy A13 boards and all-winner is producing A13 for us we have already several such orders custom orders. The funny part is that even people from China cannot order A13 because they don't have project for 100K so we ship Chinese chip back to China. So this is what Open Source hardware is doing long-term supply of chips and even smallish companies which don't use a lot of chips can get supply because of the long-term availability. This one is especially sentimental for me because the company which do this industrial monitoring is Bulgarian company and they make something like this and there is A20 Ulinux in the inside so these big excavators they every stop cost many thousand euros so they have to not stop they have to be monitored 24-7 and if something happens immediately emergency team has to go there and fix the problem because a lot of money are lost. So there is a monitoring station which is done with our computer inside they put it inside because most of our customers what they do Raspberry Pi are incredible they create a new demand, new market a lot of people get their first work with Linux on Raspberry Pi a lot of makers do projects with large Raspberry Pi because they have huge community and they have a lot of codes which people can reuse and so and so and so and usually they make something with Raspberry Pi put it in the field and it fails and then they start to search for something which works more reliably and they come to us so I'm very happy with Raspberry Pi they create a lot of business for us these guys also started with Raspberry Pi but you have here a lot of electrical noise because these big machines they work on 60,000 volts there are huge electric motors which work on 60,000 volts a lot of noise so if you don't filter everything on your power supply correctly it just reboots after a few minutes work and it becomes very difficult to work around it this one is you can see here Ulinuxinu in a smart traffic light control and it's put on the streets of Moscow another project but this picture is just illustrative it's not the product of our customer they use it in the vending machine which also operate outside an outside temperature in one of our other big customers is making handheld cruiser ships point of cells also this is illustrative I don't know how it looks but they buy a lot of A20 volts and put it inside this point of cell terminals and this is not industrial application but I'm very proud because a Swiss company made a rover on Arktika and you can see the logo of Ulinux A20 is inside and works at minus 40 degrees temperature so it was very cool project not industrial application but still show that it's capable to work at low temperature so in my opinion open source hardware is win-win-win it wins for you it wins for your component suppliers it wins for your customers everybody is happy and it's natural to match the industry customers because long-term availability better reliability because you get the permanent feedback you can change this or make this better and your product is improved with the help of the many people so it's really a good way to achieve better products and to get more customers and here the last slide if you have some questions you can yes? how many companies produce our products and why people choose us frankly I don't know but I'm sure that we have hundreds of companies which reuse our designs because sometimes we go on exhibition and some guys come and say we made a cash register with your boards I'm sorry and I say why are you sorry because we copy your design but we publish it because we wanted you to copy it there is a business for us we have enough work sometimes too much work but we have enough work to feed our teams and to do whatever we want so we are happy that people use our technology and we are useful for them and I don't know but there is a lot I know that there is some company in Turkey which publish the same the only problem we have is that sometimes they copy even the seal screen and there is write an Olimax on it and if it's shitty board people think yeah this is done by Olimax this is what I usually tell them put your name on your board you can still say it's designed by Olimax but produced by you there is something wrong people know that this doesn't come from us yes? I try to convince open hardware and open software and I work hard times because even if I tell them some slightly arguments she said like the community the free feedback, the free testing they think that Chinese company will rip their design off and then they will lose all their customers but the question was I try to convince people to do more open projects but they are afraid that everybody will copy their designs and tell them that they should not worry if their products have some value it will be copied anyway because at one time I started getting some emails from some Chinese company they wanted to sell me Raspberry Pi because they see Linux computer and say Raspberry Pi is producing this in UK so they copied it it's not rocket science people have sophisticated technologies to copy everything you need I have seen some weeks ago an Indian company which copied every protected chip and they had a list of thousands of chips and how it works you send them a chip and they give you two chips back and you test them and you say yes they are same like my sample and then they give you the hex code they strip off the epoxy they look with the microscopes and copy the flash memory inside so yeah it doesn't cost a lot it was something like 200 to 1000 dollars so it was not big investment talk actually what are you hiding when you don't release your project they will copy you anyway they will not have these benefits they will not have access to the documentation even if two products are same the open product will have more value for your customers because it's better documented and he can inspect it in details so yes a lot of people are concerned some people make very silly things like there was some Chinese company which pretended to be open source and they released some board with RT5350 and it's rallying chip it has datasheet it has application notes you can see the radio part inside and everything is published by the manufacturer and this guy made a board and because people say you didn't release like open source but you claim it's open source they released one CAD file where they switch the inductors with capacitors in the radio part I said what everyone who has a bit of knowledge he will write the application note and see that it's bullshit but you intentionally confuse the small people who don't have knowledge and they will lose money to make a board and then see that it doesn't work why you do this thank you very much so yes you will be copied if you are successful you will be copied just look how many Arduino's are out there look how many Raspberry Pi equivalents are out there actually Raspberry Pi the only protection for Raspberry Pi is because Broadcom is behind them and they don't sell chip to anyone else otherwise you will see Raspberry Pi for $10 for $5 I'm sure yes the question was when we do the old revision do we change the capacitors or other components if they are obsolete no it's a general purpose capacitor if it's 100 nano farad with this dielectric with this voltage there will be no re-certification because you just exchange two general purpose parts but if you wire the layout of the PCP differently if you change the antenna or something like this which affects the electromagnetic compatibility yes you have to re-check but just changing supplier from Samsung to Jaigo or Murata this will not change the certification yes that's a good question how do we handle certification for these open products we cannot certify everything why? because we have a lot of revisions as I said sometimes we make 3 revisions per year and every time we have to do this revision we have to apply for new certificate which cost money what we did is we certificate the highest runner products and later we have a lot of customers which certify their end product and yeah if we do this we help them because the whole certification will be easier and less expensive for them but we don't do this for every product for instance we have ESP32 power over Ethernet board we certify this because it's a high runner and a lot of people use it so we did this once so they can benefit for all but we didn't certificate all the smallish board because we have maybe 15 different revisions they use the same module which has all the certificates and just the surrounding parts is different and we certify power over Ethernet and customers who use these products they verify and say yeah my final product gets got certificate with these boards too many, we have 600 different boards it's too much and so many revisions we have to adopt one certification laboratory and they to work only for us and you should convince your clients to sub-certificate so everyone can actually benefit from it that's possible but I don't want to put restriction and yep anyone else, yes talking in the past about like you've gone back like insights from reviews of people like oh you should have looked up this wire that way to make like the SD card go faster have you any other anecdotes of like because you're open source like building model you get feedback before you produce the board yes, yes you do it in a way that's much more open than most other projects that I know of that's a good question, the question is when you should have upload your files if I understand correctly and to open them we try many many different things but I think the most successful is to open it immediately when you have the concept and you make the schematic upload it because even it's not PCB layout, many people say but if I upload it too early somebody will make copy of it and will release it before me it doesn't happen like this way first board we did this way we start doing A13 and since we complete the schematic I put it on the github and block on the web and say people, we are making new board can you check and see if we miss something and I can see where people landing from to the Torb page and there was a massive landing from one Russian forum and there was a discussion there and they said should we take this schematic and make a board Torb and somebody else said nah, forget it, they will then we will copy it too much work so people are not crazy they know that you will finish the PCB layout and then they can access to it why should they duplicate your work so don't worry that you open too early actually you will get the most benefit if you open immediately because even we have one IP camera we recently uploaded and we forgot backlighting for the camera for night vision it's obvious but when we layout the schematic we forgot to put it with the PWM and some guy said yeah you forgot backlighting what will happen otherwise you will make a prototype then you will see that you did wrong and you have to make a second prototype so the earlier you open the better because you get feedback earlier so you can make better product from the beginning after few iterations we have 10 more minutes yes are we planning ah, phone we have so many projects running that we usually late with all of them so phone project will be too much I think maybe later right now we have a new industrial grade board which will be with STM electronics STM32 then we want to make something more powerful but not based on ROG chip but based on NXP they have one wonderful chip IMX8 Max which has 6 core A 72 or 76 I don't remember correctly but they have ton of peripherals they have PCI's they have SATA's they have gigabit but I think 10 or 25 gigabit ethernet and the best is that they can work with the LPDDR4 and can address up to 32 gigabyte of RAM so we plan to put a connector for laptop memory so you can put any size of memory you want on this computer and it will become very handy it will be not 35 dollars because the chip alone cost 100 euro but it will be more powerful it will be ARM server board actually yes will not in the current design because this chip needs a lot of power you cannot get power without paying penalty with the power supply so it's not good for a plastic box laptop because the current laptop is plastic it has not lot of space inside but we plan to make a new upgrade of the laptop with aluminum body which can be used like a head sink and to put something like this powerful it has USB 3 you can check IMX 8 max it has a very big range of different devices it is industrial grade it works on minus 45 plus 105 and it's totally different from what we have now yes how these companies get to the Olimax usually this happens these companies use some line of solution or something like this and their employee know about Olimax and influence their bosses to move to open source alternative this is how it usually happens no we are not very popular among corporative brands and things like this but in these companies work a lot of people some of them are open sourcing to see as they work on linux solution for these companies and they say yeah there is open source solution it has this and these benefits and they wait the pluses and minuses of this and they decide to go with open source hardware we do a lot of new projects even if they copy it will take one year to copy it correctly so we have one year window then we will make something else and I'm not afraid of this kind of and after all I don't want to have all the business of the world people can eat limited amount of food and can spend limited amount of money I have a simple life I have no ambitions to work 40 12-14 hours per day I want to keep some balance between my family my work and I do this for fun because I like it I will do it without money also but when people pay you to do what you like it's even better so a lot of companies has a project let's make more sales say okay yeah but what's the point of this more work is more work and I need some free time some interesting stuff which I like yes we already have a board which we are rooting now it's but as you know when you read the specs with the Chinese it's very simple they have 20 pages user manual you read it for one hour and you know everything about the chip with the NXP TI STM they have 3,000 pages and they have some highlights and they say yeah this chip is so wonderful and then you start to read the application notes and the data and she says ah this doesn't work if this is working like they say we have ENC HS 200 and we say yeah this is faster ENC good but later we read that the PLL cannot work more than 130 megahertz so it's not 200 it's 130 hs and then we see that they spread the signals on 3 different ports and to work with HS 200 you have to power the EMC at 1.8 volts but you have to sacrifice all other peripherals on these ports which is Ethernet KAN and many many others so there are some things which are good on specs but when you start to read the data sheet you see that you actually cannot use them and this is part of the development process this was our talk with this guy he said when you will make the laptop with the RISC 5 for the moment RISC 5 is doing very well it gets popular but they primitive licenses like BSD so take this open source and do whatever you want with it and actually the companies which make now RISC 5 they do exactly this they change the instructions to make it incompatible with other chips they don't actually open their designs because RISC 5 correct but I don't know what is inside so what is the difference between this and ARM which also don't tell us what is inside that you have open instruction set is beautiful but there has to be one fair good company open friendly company which to produce chip and open it everything inside this chip so we say yes completely open chip now for the moment the companies which make RISC 5 chips they just do it closed source so yeah this is RISC 5 but it is not open yeah it has open instruction set we know everything about the instruction set but we don't know what else is there on the silicon so if there is a good chip which can run Linux all these peripherals I would love to make laptop with this or even general purpose computer because it will be great to have a general purpose RISC 5 computer which even like a Linux in a small box you can carry with you put a keyboard and monitor and start develop and our discussion was that yeah even if the chip is not so open it will allow the software developers to work with the architecture and make the software support for the RISC 5 so it will be positive even in this way and I accept this yeah even if the chip is not completely open if we make a general purpose computer which has memory monitor keyboard and people can develop on it with a C compiler and to compile tool chance it will be used well for the software development even if we don't trust him 100% anything else yes you have a particular approach to take care of your customers customers say whatever you say you have 24-7 service yeah how do we serve our customers we are a very small company we are very limited in people everything in Olimax is automated if somebody feels something on the web there is a ERP system which checks the payments print the shipping label and people just put the boxes inside the parcel and it goes away and we don't have any support for instance which irritates a lot of customers because we have 600 different products and nobody can keep in his own mind all the variation of these boards how to program them or how to debug them we have some people calling on the phone and say I have an email name some chip and I want to check if I can program it should I see mail will check and let you know because I cannot do this on the phone so our support is not perfect because especially for the Olimax we might have three or four people who did one did the component libraries other made the schematic other made the routing another one rolled the drivers and when somebody said I can put this kind of device on the USB and it doesn't boot up we have to check what is this device 3e or something in the hardware or something with the schematic we don't provide enough current for this device it's a complex thing and we cannot solve it on the phone usually we use email for exchange the communication and it doesn't happen immediately because our people has to get the same board from the same revision to install the same software to investigate what happens with this device and to give a competent answer why this happens or not yes yes you know it's a matter of habits we first had to move from I don't remember what this was cutstar for those to Eagle 25 years ago and our people are saying oh it will be so difficult we have thousands of libraries which we have to rewrite I say ok but we have to get something more modern and we start using Eagle and it was not so difficult because you use in 90% of your designs you use some components which are 300 or 400 and then you have many odd components oh time's up use it Eagle now they don't want to touch it because they become familiar with key cut and now they work with key cut and when they have to do something with Eagle they say oh Eagle again no no no if you want to make open source hardware you have to use open source tools so everybody can approach these tools and can contribute otherwise you just limit the number of people who can help you it's matter it's matter of habits when you get used yes yes yes absolutely absolutely