 Welcome. I'm Liam McArthur. I'm the Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, but more relevantly for this event, I'm also the member of the Scottish Parliament for Awkney. I'd like to welcome you all to this online edition of the Festival of Politics 2021 in partnership with Scotland's Future Forum. This afternoon's event is about the Scottish Islands being on the front line of the climate emergency. We're delighted that so many people are able to join us online today, and I look forward to hearing comments and questions from our audience as we get into our discussion. Scotland's islands have been described as the canary down the mine when it comes to the climate emergency. Since 2000, the rising sea levels, heavier rainfall and frequent powerful storms have been eroding the dunes and mature land that protects many low-lying communities whose wellbeing and livelihoods are now being altered. In the next hour, we'll hear from the island communities already dealing and adapting to the climate emergency on their doorstep, as well as predicting the island's respective futures. To answer those questions, I'm delighted to be joined today by our panellists. You can read more about them on the Festival website, but let me first introduce Dr Sandy Kerr, director of the International Centre for Island Technology at Heriot-Watt University's campus in Stromanus in Orkney, and Camille Dressla, who is based in Egg, who is chair of the Scotland Islands Federation and vice chair of the European Small Islands Federation. Unfortunately, Ryan Thomson, the chair of the Environment and Transport Committee at Shetland Islands Council, has been unable to join us due to being unwell, and we sent him our best wishes for a speedy recovery. In order, maybe just to set the scene, there'll be an opportunity for our online audience to put questions and views to the panel throughout the event. If you would like to make a contribution, please enter your question or comment into the question and answer box. Make sure to state your first name and where you are from, and we'll go through as many as we possibly can before 2 o'clock. I'd like to begin, however, by asking both our panellists what have you witnessed on your respective islands that would substantiate the claim that Scotland's islands are indeed the canary down the mine when it comes to the impact of the climate emergency over the last few decades. I'll start with Sandy and then come to Camille. Sandy, what are your thoughts? Thank you, I'm delighted to be here. It's a really interesting question. It's something that we've often said over many years that we are, sometimes we're a canary down the mine and other times we're a lighthouse. In terms of physical things that we've seen around us in Orney, we're definitely saying that we've increased coastal erosion. In Orney, it's a particular concern around a lot of our historic monuments, places like Scarborough Bray, where there's extensive sea defences there already, but that's starting to be eroded away, also around our built environment. We're a rural community, but it's actually a built environment in Orney that's being impacted not so much by coastal erosion, but here sea level rising, flooding, St Margaret's Hope, Kirkwall, big new flood defences in Kirkwall, and also in my hometown of Strunness. Another important issue is around increased storminess and how that's causing problems with transport links. One of the obvious ones, ferries, are obviously impacted by storminess, but here in Orney, we have some fixed links and barriers between the Churchill barriers and a wooden two between the Orney mainland and the South Isles. Anybody who lives in Orney is very aware of the increased impact of storminess and wave over toppling there. This year, unexpectedly, we've suffered one of the worst droughts for a long, long time, so extreme weather patterns. Going back to your original point about the Canary down the mine, as an indicator in change, the trouble with all those things, they're absolutely real and of huge major concern. What we would expect to see given the climate change predictions is that often there are things that we don't have a long time series of evidence. There's always been storms, they appear to be much worse and more frequent. One thing that I would point to is the environment around about this. If you look at seabird populations, for example, we have very good long-term data on seabird populations. For many species, the numbers have crashed in recent years. We know that a lot of this has to do with the change in the plankton regime in the seas around us, so that sandeals are not as abundant or not turning up at the right time of year. You've got, yeah, maybe not a canary, but you've definitely got a seagull down the mine as far as Orkney is concerned, but the impacts are widespread in many. Thanks very much for that, Sandy. That's very helpful. I think that you've teed up Camille very well in reference to the travel disruption and ferry cancellations, because I think that egg has not been without its issues over recent days. Camille, what would be your reflections in terms of your own experience of islands being the canary down the mine? I would definitely concur with Sandy that a drought is a problem that seems to be getting increasingly worse. It was bad last year. It was becoming quite critical this year as well, particularly for small islands. Our membership being spread between the six island areas of Scotland, I definitely can report the same kind of patterns that Sandy has been mentioning throughout the Western Isles, North Seashire Islands, Argyll Islands, Highland Islands, Scotland as well. Coastal erosion, a discrepancy between the arrival of migrant birds and insects, so there's a bit of a problem between the source, which has not quite arrived, or quite a bit of difficulty with the seabird population and the feed source, the food source, and the pattern of erosion, obviously, which is quite a problem for low-lying islands. Certainly with network island innovation, we have been sharing maps of what would happen if the sea level would rise and there's an awful lot of coastal land that would be underwater in our islands, so it's something that we really need to be mindful of and we need to work with our local authority to anticipate and work on mitigation issues quite urgently. Thanks very much for that. Camille, before turning to the next question, I certainly encourage our audience to put their questions in the Q&A function and, as they say, if you could indicate a first name and where you're from, that would be very helpful. Hopefully, we will be able to do a tour of the country in terms of the comments and the questions over the course of the hour, but just turning maybe to that point that you were making there, Camille, about some of the planning work that islands undertake, is there something in terms of the closer nature of island communities that allows a behavioural change to take place, to embrace initiatives to address climate change that might be more difficult in more urban areas? Are there examples of how that has happened, whether through development of renewable energy projects or energy efficiency projects or some of the flood mitigation that Sandy was talking about earlier? I would say that the islands are generally far-sighted and have anticipated all this and the move to renewables in the first place. There's been quite a few years that we've been working on mitigation, the effects of climate change and taking the opportunities that arise with the development of renewable for our island. I think we definitely are ahead of the curve, but where it becomes more difficult is to plan for the future. I mean what's going to happen if we don't have enough water, would we have to get desalination plants like they do in Sweden and in Ireland, for instance, or solar panel power, of course, but this is something that's quite worrying for a lot of islands looking to the future, but the thing that we have to say is that our population on the islands are really been engaging with the renewable revolution and, for instance, the good news about North Yale in Shetland is about having this big wind turbine fire from going ahead. It's something that's been impulsed by local population as early as 2012, so we are mindful of what's happening and we are trying to do something about it. Sandy, if I come to you, I mean, obviously, Orkney has kind of banished itself as a kind of living laboratory, as somewhere that is taking a lead in innovating solutions to address some of these challenges. So, I mean, I wonder whether you could talk about the experience locally in Orkney in using that size and scale, perhaps, to good effect in tackling these sorts of issues, and perhaps also learning lessons that may be useful for similar projects or behavioural change elsewhere. Yeah, it's a very good point this, and it's something that I have thought about quite a lot over the years, that, you know, why is it that a lot of the certainly community-scale renewable energy initiatives and local energy system sort of innovation is happening in rural areas, in particular in the islands, and I think there's a couple of reasons for that, and I think that one of them is that I think that islanders, particularly people living in small islands, they're system thinkers, they understand everything, how everything interacts to make the system on their island work, they know how many kids are in the school, they understand where their power comes from, where the water comes from, how the ferries work, how interrelated and reliant everything is, perhaps in a way that you maybe don't in Edinburgh, you turn your tap on and there's water, I wonder how many people know where it comes from. I think that islanders are used to thinking in a systems way, so they can see how fragile it is, and the smallness of space means that when you're confronted with a problem, you can't just use space to hide the problem. You're confronted with problems, you understand how everything links up, so you kind of get the idea of energy, you kind of get the idea of sustainable development, you kind of get why renewable energy is important, it's an easier story to explain and tell to people on islands because they think that we already, and climate change is a systems problem, it's going to require behavioural change, it's going to require new renewable technologies, but it's not just a case of unplugging, cooling, plugging something else in, how we use energy is going to have to be very different, we're going to have to change how we live our lives, it's a systems problem, so I think that gives us a head start, and I think the other thing in small tight-knit communities is that information diffuses more quickly, and I give you an example of that, about 15 years ago when we had small feed-in towers for small wind, at one point Orkney, forgive me if my numbers are wrong but they're approximately right, at one point Orkney had 20% of the UK installed small-scale wind, that's your household scale staff, that's six kilowatts, 20% of the UK installed capacity, we've got 0.05% of the UK population in Orkney, now the whole of the country is getting the same price signal, what was that about, well I think it's about, when somebody sees that wind's a good idea and small-scale wind works, then that information diffuses and spreads very quickly in the community, so it's adopted very quickly, so that's why I'd say that that helps, has really helped us to put us ahead of the game, so trying to think about the metropolitan world down south, I think that trying to identify what are the communities that we're going to talk to and that are going to sort of embrace change, because I think that maybe not necessarily geographic when you're in a city, whereas the island of egg or west or mainland Orkney, you've got more of an obvious sort of, you know, what is community is much more obvious, so I think that sort of identifying the community that you're going to try, that needs to change its behaviour is very important. No, that's, I think, very helpful, Sandy, and as somebody who is one of those connecting micro wind turbines to the network, I know that not only did SSC struggle to keep track of who was connecting up, but ultimately it helped create the conditions of capacity constraints on the grid, which has turned, I think, probably catalyzed more consideration to how we use local sources of demand to use up the production that we've got. I'm taken by a question that's come in for Amanda in Edinburgh, about what we've seen for Camille and Sandy, both talking about the way in which maybe islands are well set up to innovate in this area, but to what extent, Amanda's asking, is there a fund for islands to implement climate adaptation measures? Is there a framework or some other support for councils, members of the public, to create climate adaptation plans? Essentially, is Government supporting the kind of innovation that both Sandy and Camille have been talking about? Who wants to go first? Camille, can I come to you first, maybe? Well, we are very lucky at the moment to have an island plan, so renewables and production of renewables and making sure that we have the skills within the island population to service that industry is part of the plan. We have a head start on this, but I think that Amanda's question is very important. I can compare that with my experience of other countries in Europe, where perhaps the whole issue of planning is maybe more centralised. I've seen that, in Scotland, the application of sustainable energy action plan may not have been necessarily moved on to sustainable energy and climate action plans, as it is happening in Germany, Denmark or France. It is important that it occurs right across the board and that the council, the local authorities, do work with the local communities to make sure that there is a joined up approach and also that there is a political will to support that. I'm not just saying about the Scottish Government. I think that we are very lucky in this country, in Scotland, that we have a very supportive Government, but is there the will at the UK Government to change the issue? You were mentioning SSE just now, Liam. How come that when there is the problem with the subsea cables to Tyree or Islay that go down, there is no will from SSE to immediately switch on the capacity on the island? It is not happening. It is all the slicker switch to a diesel generator system, so there is a need to a systemic change, definitely, and that requires political will at all levels. That's helpful, Camille. The issue of the switching to diesel generators is certainly an issue that we've been experiencing in Orkney with cable faults of late. Sandy, to what extent do you think there has been a supportive environment around local, national or UK Government to support those initiatives? I am sitting here and reflecting on the past. Renewbable energy in Orkney is something that goes back to the mid-90s when we started looking at it. In terms of specific support for islands, I've got to say very little. A lot of what happened in Orkney was that the islands galvanised to establish the Orkney Renewbable Energy Forum locally back in the 1990s, just when people didn't really know what a turbine was or how it worked. It was just a place where we could come and learn and then reach out and grab money very often from down south. I think that one thing that's been really helpful, certainly in Orkney, is the fact that we've got our own local authority, so we've got a local authority based in the islands that the councillors are islanders, so they're very aware of island problems and issues. Going back to what I said in the last comment, there is a very strong will to work together both in industry, public sector and academia in the islands. That's what's set up the Orkney Renewbable Energy Forum. The Orkney Renewbable Energy Forum, we conducted energy audits, so we understood our position, so we had facts and information to support our cause when often we went south and grabbed money from south. Frankly, in my opinion, very little specific island support over the years. Maybe changed a bit now, we've got the island's bill. We can argue about how effective that actually is, but that's relatively recent. I'd say very little of what we've done is we've organised and reached out, and often it's been Orkney bullying and cajoling Government down south. Thanks for that, Sandy. There are a few questions that have popped into my inbox here, so let me see if I can rattle through those. Firstly, from Kirsty and Sky, are there any national or local campaigns or programmes that the panellists could recommend so that individuals can get involved at a grassroots level? Camille? Well, we have been involved for quite a long time in the clean energy EU islands policies at the European level, because our federation is a member of the island federation throughout the EU, so we've been working on smart, sustainable islands for a long, long time, and I'm pleased to say that there's been a lot of political move towards resourcing the island, so I would say go to the clean energy EU island secretariat website. It's easy to find, clean energy EU island, and you have the model for a clean energy transition agenda. Every island community ought to be able to work to produce their own transition agenda. Us on Ag, we have done ours, ours just now, and we are in the middle of sharing it with the community to see if we've got it right. It's a blueprint for what you're going to do. Obviously, on Ag, we have our own mini-grids, so it's slightly different, but if you look on the examples of other CETAs, clean energy transition agendas, elsewhere, like in Ireland, or in Sweden, or in the Azores, or in Portugal, it's actually a very useful template to engage the community and to reflect and to understand their consumption. Sandy was talking about energy audits. It's important to be able to carry out this energy audit. We are the Scottish Island Federation together with Community Energy Scotland. We've developed a methodology for local community to do their own audit. We can share that with you. There are the tools that are being developed for citizens to engage in their energy transition, and we'll be very happy to make sure that those tools are available more widely. Andy, do you want to put in a plug for the Orkney Renewable Energy Forum again? Yes, I will do it and I'll advance it, move it on a little bit, but I can't underestimate how important that's been, that local organisation understanding your own island and your own system and having that information and that information's power, because without it you can't persuade anybody of anything, you'll be brushed aside all the time, so you need to understand your own island and what's going on. The Orkney Renewable Energy Forum has been absolutely critical in that. As I say, because we've got our own island local authority, that has been hugely helpful because they get it as well. I want to mention another initiative that, through the islands deal, which is one of the UK's regional deals, so the UK Government and Scottish Government both contribute money to this, and there's an islands deal, which is Orkney, Shetland and Western Isles, but we at the Harry Waite University along with local partners, the European Green Energy Centre and the private sector and the council as well and Community Energy Scotland are establishing the island centre for net zero, and this is to really try and understand or help communities work out their own pathway to net zero. This is something that, once the island deal is signed off, should be established next year, and it's the idea is to learn in these islands and then spread that news to other islands around the UK and the rest of the world indeed. I think that the centre for net zero is absolutely welcome, it's wonderful because there's going to be an exemplar for other communities, but we've also got a UHI plan to establish some type of energy academy in Malik, and with a close cooperation with the Small Isles, which all have their own mini grids and Noidart, so that people can come and learn about how to do it, and also go and spend time on each of the islands to see how they've done it. For instance, I'd like to commend the example of the Isle of Cana, where a population of 12 has managed to set up their own renewable energy system. It's remarkable, but it's just a question of determination and also getting the right help. I have to say that Community Energy Scotland is brilliant because it has a methodology that can be applied to any community, whether urban, rural or island. I think that's a point that's very well made. Sticking with the issue of energy, I've got a question here from Moregg. I don't know where she is from, but she's referring to reports of predictions of the reduction in wind in northern Europe, with a simultaneous increase around the Mediterranean, wondering whether or not that's indeed the case and whether there are implications for our own renewable energy target. Sandy, I don't know whether you have any insight into that. I'm just starting to hear about the science coming through now. I suppose that there's a lot of uncertainty around the extent to which this will happen. What I would say at the moment, if you look at a wind turbine in Orkney or Shetland, it's operating at something like maybe 55 per cent efficiency, so it's equivalent to 55 per cent at the time. In the south of England, 30 per cent, it may be as low as 20 per cent in Germany or southern France, depending on where it is. There's quite a long way to go before that flips around. We're a lot windier at the moment than in other places, so let's see. Can I just stick with the energy theme? There's a question from Graham again, no indication of where Graham is, but he's asked about whether or not the devolution of more powers over energy and energy policy to the Scottish Parliament might improve the support available for projects on the islands and presumably in mainland Scotland as well. He also asked how do the feed-in tariffs hinder development due to the higher costs in Scotland contributing to the grid? I suspect that that's probably more about the new cost rather than feed-in tariffs, but Sandy, do you have any views on the devolution of powers? There's no way of saying for sure. It really depends on how it plays out in Edinburgh and Glasgow. It's certainly a lot closer and it's certainly easier to connect with Edinburgh. There's a politics within Scotland as well, and there is an urban rule divide within Scotland as well. I think that the grid connection charges are very interesting. I think sometimes that the grid debates are a tricky one, but I look around Orkney and what I'd like to see is less of a focus on us trying to export our electricity and more of a focus on using it locally, because we're still driving about predominantly in petrol cars. I'm looking at this window attractor in the field, and that's diesel. If I actually cream my neck, I can see a ferry heading off to the North Isles, and those are huge consumers of energy. Personally, I'd like to turn that debate in its head and say how we should be focusing on using more energy locally rather than trying to move it around the country. I think that that points to the reflux project and similar work that is under way in Orkney that, because of the grid capacity issues, has seen more attention given to how we use the resources that we have in the context. Strangely, that grid capacity constraints stimulated innovation in Orkney as people try to look for solutions. Those are the kind of solutions that we're going to need everywhere in the future. That's a point well made. Not that the capacity constraints don't necessarily need to be resolved as well, but it's forced people to prioritise that issue more than would have been the case. Camille, do you have any thoughts on that? There's the issue in terms of the devolution of the powers, but the customer market that you need for your energy is that those that are paying taxes or customers paying bills will fund whatever support schemes that you've got in place. It's going to be bigger within a UK context than it would be in a Scottish context. The end of the feeding tariff has been a disaster for our island communities, because a lot of our business models for setting up renewable systems were predicated on the feeding tariff, so this kind of auction carry-on that's been going on is not the same. Again, if the Scottish Government had the power to reintroduce feeding tariff, that would be absolutely a game changer. For our rural communities and island communities, small is beautiful. You need to think about a small system within the islands. The decarbonisation of transport is perhaps ahead of the curve in the Orkneys. I think that the Orkney council has got the largest amount of charging points in the UK. It's way behind in the other islands. We need to anticipate also the green hydrogen revolution that everybody is talking about at the moment. We mustn't be left behind. I've just been to Brittany this summer and I've just seen a small hydrogen fueling station which is the side of a car park and it's powered by solar cells. You sort of think that an autonomy of 300 kilometres for island vehicles won't keep us going for quite a long time. Also, you've got to think of electric vehicles as part of the general appliances that can bring to the grid as well. It's thinking small and an island or community-based systemic thinking for the island at island level, which is important here. Also, there's a need to think differently about heating, for instance. Fuel poverty is a massive problem throughout Scotland and district heating, which is a well-entribed technology in Scandinavian countries. It's not nearly as developed as it could be. Again, renewable and hydrogen could combine to change everything. I think that definitely the evolution should help with that. As we have recently seen the disappointing news about the green hydrogen project in Aberdeen and not being given priority shows that we're not quite there yet. I've got a question from an S Davidson. I don't have the first name. I don't have a location either, but he or she asks, are policies for spaceports, fish farms, cruise ship travel etc compatible with a climate emergency and I suppose a more generic reflection, is there too much emphasis on employment for the detriment of climate? I suppose that goes to another question that I was going to ask about whether climate change exacerbates the age-old issue of island depopulation. If the jobs aren't there, the ability to attract and retain population becomes more difficult, but is there a trade-off between climate and development of those kinds? Andy? I just run two massive questions together there, Liam. Sorry, I forgot the name of the question there. In broad terms, I agree with you, but I think that that's a massive question that isn't just a question for islands. It's a question internationally indeed that we are so hung up on three letters, GDP, as a way of measuring economic growth and wellbeing, and it doesn't. You can cut trees down and it increases GDP. You burn the oil and cause climate change, the faster you do it, the faster it increases GDP. We've been over-reliant on simple measures of growth that we think equate to wellbeing. In terms of the population change on the islands, which is the second part of the thorny question that Liam tagged on the end there, we are likely to see a lot of mixed effects in different parts of our islands. Issues such as storminess, ferries and the challenges of transport are maybe a kind of disincentive as well, but I've been thinking about this and that, in Orkney, we're seeing an increase in population at the moment, and I'm not saying that's directly related to climate change, but one of the big draws is actually the renewable energy technologies and development in Orkney that's drawing in particularly young people it's enabling. Orchidians have gone away and studied science STEM subjects to come back and get a good job, as well as drawing in people who come to study with us in Orkney and then stay and work. It's actually reversing the brain drain and the drain of younger, economically active people, and it's seeing this for really in Orkney. That's because of all this renewable energy and energy systems related activity. There's potential real positive benefits for islands that grasp the nettle here in this energy transition. I was also thinking as well that there's a lot of people moving to Orkney as well. A lot that's been to do with the pandemic and suddenly they realise that you can work from home, therefore you don't need to be close to Edinburgh, Glasgow, London, Manchester, wherever. So a lot of people are moving and bringing them jobs with them. Also, I wonder with that increased mobility, maybe with increased drought, increased heat down south, I don't think anybody found it particularly comfortable in London this year, never mind the south of France or Greece, that maybe our cooler climates are going to be rather attractive. That might cause people to move in as well. So it's a big topic that I don't think we quite know what's going to happen. Yeah, I think that's a fair point in terms of the population increase over the course of the last 18 months or so. I think that people might be re-appraising their work-life balance and the opportunities, you say, to work from home, not needing to be physically present, has opened up opportunities. Likewise, I think that those higher-skill, better-paid jobs in the renewable sector has been a catalyst too. Camille, how would you see that kind of, I don't think, necessarily an inherent conflict, but the tension that can exist between development and creating jobs in islands and the imperative of addressing the climate emergency? I would say that probably Orkney has been the most successful area to sort of benefit from the cruise ship. They very well organise, but I'm not sure if the cruise ship model is a sustainable model for tourism. That's a larger question here. Who is in charge of strategy here? Is it a central body or is it the communities themselves? I think it's very important that the communities themselves are looking at their own sustainable strategy for tourism, where they encourage smaller-scale, more authentic experience and not that sort of like mass tourism that is destroying places and creating a huge amount of issues. I mean, look at sky at the moment and the explosions of airbnbs, which means that we have not enough housing for our doctors, our teachers, our nurses, because they are having to compete with tourism on a large scale. We have to be very careful about what we wish for in terms of development. The recent crisis with Covid has shown the potential of islanders to come up with solutions that are low-scale and rooted in the culture and the tradition of the islands, the kind of know-how branding and the products that are really innovative and rooted in the experience of the island. Certainly, the website that was developed to sell island product, aisle 20, has shown that there was a lot of entrepreneurship going on the island. We are not talking about massive development like fish farms. Fish farms do not get me started on this. Fish farms are important as an employer, but they create a lot of issues themselves. Perhaps with the development of the green hydrogen, there might be lots of oxygen produced that will go to waste if we do not use it. Perhaps a different way of fish farming, perhaps inland fish farming, is a smaller scale that will not pollute our lochs and our coastal sea and cause problems with migration of our iconic salmon. The concept is being smart and sustainable. Smart and sustainable island is our mantra. That is what we need to think of in terms of development, always having this motto in the head. Let me stick with the theme of food. You started on fish farming, so we will stay on the food theme. Chris from Shetland says that food security is going to be a growing issue, especially given that we are per capita footprint. That needs to be more support for community growing and community supported growing schemes. I wonder whether you are aware of what support is available at the moment and whether you would agree that that is something where local governments and national government need to be far more supportive in its approach and the provision of funding to allow these schemes to take off? That is a very important question. The Scottish Rural Parliament touched upon the new land use partnership. There is a little bit of a worry about the way this partnership will be working because I think that there will be the body that will be allowing funding for agriculture. It is important that islands are represented well within these panels. We need to think about a different type of agriculture, an agriculture that is not going to be exhausting the land but helps with the soil health so that the soil can continue to help with the carbon capture. It is difficult for me to understand all this concept. However, I understand that soil health is critical to carbon being retained in the soil. A good model for agriculture, such as regenerative agriculture, which everybody talks about at the moment, is something that should definitely be encouraged. Basically, it is all about the traditional model of agriculture. Small scale perhaps is a good quality cattle that may be more finished on the islands or in the rural area than sent away for better quality, meat better quality and also a chance to grow more locally instead of having to do all these good miles. Absolutely, we do need a strategy that will bring the cost of producing food locally down and make sure that we all are aiming towards self-sufficiency. I live in the very small islands. If the ferry goes tomorrow, we will run out of food there rapidly because there is no way that we can supply enough within the island, even though we have our own orchard, there are a lot of greenhouses and everything, but that needs to be encouraged more. The real cost of agriculture needs to be factored in also. Thank you. Sandy, the climate at the moment determines to a large extent what food is produced and how livestock are raised on the islands. What observations would you make in relation to that issue of food security? It is an interesting issue for climate change food and meat production, particularly sensitive one in Orkney. Liam Well understands that we are at the backbone of the Archerian economy's beef production. It is not about self-sufficiency. We are an exporter of high-quality beef. Most of the audience will be aware that lots of questions are being asked about the sustainability of meat eating in the longer run. We need more information because a lot of the information that is becoming forward about meat consumption is about cattle lots in South America and North America, and it is very aggregated data. I was also at a very interesting presentation last week, funnily enough, when a speaker came to the Orkney, a renewable energy forum, to talk about how food supplements and cattle feed might have the opportunity to bring down methane production from cattle by something like 60 per cent. This research has been done in the States in a very different mode of agricultural production. Nevertheless, there may be ways that we can produce beef in Orkney and cut the carbon significantly. I also hope that, because we are producing a very high-quality, high-end product, and that is what farmers strive to do in Orkney, that if the population more generally cuts down on meat consumption, it will be the lower end, cheaper stuff that people move out of their life. We should treat meat consumption as the treat that it is, but it is something special rather than something every day. If that is the case, something like Orkney should be well placed to be part of that market going forward. There is no doubt about it. It is a tough issue. Until we have hard facts until we understand the situation on the ground in the islands, we can have a lot of hot air in arguments without any resolution or understanding the way forward. My first objective is to try to understand it better. I have a question from Jeane in Islay. I am not sure whether that is more for Camille than Sandy, or whether it is for me. References have been made to the benefits of having a unitary island authority. Do you think that there could be benefits to there being a new authority for the islands of Highland and Argyll? I suppose that the observations would be that the islands act emerged out of work done by the three island authorities, Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles. The legislation itself is quite deliberately touched on islands within Argyll and Bute and Highland Council areas. I suppose that a unitary authority, including all of the islands from Argyll and Highland, might have some benefits, but I could see some potential tensions arising in terms of often the zero sum game that can be played between islands that have the same but competing interests for infrastructure and other such things. Camille, this is your neck of the woods. Do you see this as something of a panacea? Reflecting, I suppose, the islands' interests in allowing them to punch up of their weight, where decisions are taken, whether they are about policy or funding. That is true. It is a big issue because, if you consider North Ayrshire, there have only got two islands. Obviously, the island of Argyll and Cumbria have a lot of more difficulty to get the point of view hard at council level than, say, Westray and Woodhouse in Orkney. I am totally sympathetic to the point of view that Jeane has. For Argyll and Bute, there is a substantial amount of islands at the Argyll and Bute Council has got an island representative and an island forum. However, they have always been, from what I understand, a little bit jealous of the way that Orkney, Shetland and Western Isles have managed to get their strategies more aligned because they are island authorities. For Argyll and Bute, our future, for instance, which impulse the whole island bill in Argyll and Bute, were always sort of saying, well, we don't seem to be including as much as we could be, so there is merit in having more strength for the islands that do not have their own authority. However, I think that is a question that needs to be looked at in more details. Certainly, in Highlands, Rassie, the Small Isles do work together and the sky is slightly different because it has a bridge, but I think that the distance involved is so large between the tip of the sky and the island that it would be difficult to work out a central point. It may need a lot more work to be done before we can come to a conclusion on that. I notice that you referred to Westry getting its voice heard. As somebody who is brought up in Sandy, I do not think that Westry has any difficulty getting its voice heard and all power to it. Sandy, I do not know whether you would have any observations, whether it has been a benefit having the island authorities. I think that you yourself referred to it on a couple of occasions, that unitary authority, allowing a collective voice to be expressed. I think that it does, and I have to say on a number of levels, partly because the councillors are islanders as well. It is what I said about islanders, understanding the system's thinking. Also, the council in Orkney is also the harbour authority. It controls that it might not want to. It has to operate the inter-island ferries. It is a big energy consumer itself, so it is quite having the council on board when you are trying to strategise about energy in the islands is hugely helpful. I will say something else, which might be a bit tiny bit controversial, but we also have in Orkney most of the councillors are independent. I think that that makes a difference. Some people say that it can cause confusion in terms of policy coming forward, but I do think that it means that you get a hearing. They will listen and be persuaded by arguments and are not looking over their shoulder at their colleagues in their party or have to take the party line from somewhere else in the country. Some people disagree with me on that, but I personally, I quite like it having independent councillors, but they will listen and they will talk to each other as well. That would be a retaliation for me throwing the cruise ship question at you. Camilla, you wanted to come back in, sorry. It may be a question of resources here as well, and I can understand her question very well, because if you take Argyll and Bute, it is a massive area, and it maybe is the same problem with Highland. We have councillors that are so huge and so overstretched that the resources to service the islands become very tenuous in the end. There is definitely merit in perhaps making some of our councils smaller. It might be a good idea to have Argyll and Bute split but I am not too sure if you could have an island authority that would just group all the islands that are not in western Isles in Orkney or Shetland. It is a difficult problem there, but there is definitely a need to have more resources for islands because I know that Argyll and Bute resources are very strict. When we were working with them on energy issues, they could do a sustainable energy plan for one island, but not all the islands. It was just like a question of resources, and it is true that it is a big problem. I am going to see your controversial statement, Sandy, and raise you one again from S Davidson about questioning whether or not the depopulation of the islands is indeed a bad thing or a negative issue, or is it just because the cost to local authorities to sustain basic services for a smaller number of people is more of a challenge. I suspect that we are getting into territory of a whole different themed event for a future festival of politics there. I am conscious of time here, so I will not necessarily bring you in on that. I think that we have probably exhausted the questions. Let me finish off with one more. Matt in Shetland, the issue with independent councillors, is the lack of an organised opposition holding leadership to account. Sandy, when you introduced the comment, you did indicate that it was not necessarily a universally held view. I suppose that the other issue is that there is not necessarily always a great deal of clarity about what a manifesto or what they would look to achieve over the term. There is always a flip side. I can see that. Elegantly dealt with. At that point, I am going to have to start drawing things to a close. Thank you very much indeed for all the contributions. Sorry that we did not manage to get to all the questions and comments in the box. Before we close, I will offer our panellists, Sandy and Camille, an opportunity to sum up for them what has been the key point, the key reflection on the discussion. I will tie it in to a question from Jane and Edinburgh, who, as well as thanking the panel for a fascinating discussion, asks if there is one sentence, how would you advertise the need to think out of the box in relation to climate change? I will give you the choices whether to reflect on that or whether there is something else that you think is the burning issue from the discussion that we have had over the past hour. I am going to start with you, Camille. The whole thing is getting the awareness of community level. In islands, it is easier because our communities are very tight-knit. As Sandy pointed out, we are a systemic thinker, but there is no reason why we cannot have a tenement block being an island within the city. If you can have, in an urban context, lots of little islands of neighbourhoods that are thinking about the issue of climate change together, they could put pressure to get to a system that will benefit them in terms of fuel poverty, in terms of district heating, in terms of transport. It is all about being close to your local representative and making sure that your voice is heard. Maybe we are better at doing that in islands because we are closer to our politicians, we are closer to our representative and we are quite feisty as well. We know that we can see clearly the relationship between our lives and the changes in climate change, and we want to do something about it. Question of awareness and community engagement, Camille. As the leader of the BASC Nationalist Party once told me many years ago, the benefits of devolution are that the bums are closer to kick. That sums it up not too badly. Sandy, how would you reflect on this discussion or advertise the need to think out of the box in relation to climate change? Just like you said, I totally agree with what Camille said and reflect our discussion in the comments. I think that nobody is going to come and start it out for us. There is a limit to how far complaining about somebody's south or even further south will get you, probably not very far. I am not saying to people further south or right far from it, but it is about islands organising. You have to understand your own place and understand the energy in it and what it needs and figure out a pathway forward. Nobody else is going to do that for you. Without the willingness to organise in your own space then you are not going to get very far. The other thing is to try and stay optimistic because without that you lose the energy to do anything. I reflect on my own small town of strongness and how it has expanded. It has got this amazing mix of international and local people and international people that are coming here to understand what these islands are doing in terms of learning from the green revolution that is happening here. Nobody has died from down south. It was the islanders that did it themselves. I think that that point about islanders having a kind of can-do attitude. The number of people who say to me after visits to Orkney, but I am sure that it is the case in other islands as well, that there is a can-do attitude there and that is what strikes them. If you are in government, it is far easier to look at how you might get alongside and back something that is under way that is well-formed, such as the buy-in of the local population and you can support it along the way than starting from scratch with a problem that you do not really know how to deal with. I think that is a point that is very well made. Let us conclude on this optimistic note. I thank everybody for their contributions, for their questions, for their comments and apologies that we did not manage to get to all of them. In particular, I thank Dr Sandy Kerr and Camille Dressler for giving up their time to take part this afternoon. I also take the opportunity to remind everyone watching that the festival continues later on today with panels on climate activism in This Is Not A Drill at 6 p.m. tonight. Tomorrow, we have panels on technical and financial innovations to save our world in big brains for big solutions, followed by a panel about the global north part in the climate crisis in Is the North to Blaine, as well as sessions on mental health and Covid-19 inequalities. I hope that you can join us, but for now, I thank you very much indeed for your participation for supporting the festival of politics. Have a good afternoon and the rest of the weekend. Thanks very much. Thank you. It was a pleasure.