 Pounder and Director of Bath and Beyond, a program focused on empowering teenage mothers. She is a professional banker, a consultant on matters microlending, women economic empowerment, group management and credit management with at least nine years of experience and from the entry unit bound to be a great, great, great discussion. Karibu Sana. Thank you very much. You're welcome to identify. It's a pleasure to be here and it's a pleasure for you to have me. Karibu Sana. Thank you. So let's just start from, what is Bath and Beyond? Well Bath and Beyond is a program that as part of your introduction that focuses on teenage mothers and probably just as a question normally I ask that when was the last time you had about teenage mothers? You know most of the time when we talk about teenage mothers it's only when we have statistics about teenage pregnancy that has been there are out there or any time we have our national exams and normally you find that most of around that time and if you normally would want to ask a question is how can we prevent teenage pregnancy but no one focuses on the ones who are already pregnant. So teenage, I mean Bath and Beyond is about focusing on young mothers and basically just giving them help and our mission, vision is creating safe spaces for teenage mothers. Yes. When did you start, when did you start Bath and Beyond? When. Bath and Beyond was born many years ago. I was a teenage mother myself. Yeah so let me say around 2011 I was still in the corporate circles because I no longer work in the banking sector. I used to ask myself is it, you know and for me it was about just asking myself where am I headed to. So Bath and Beyond was born in 2011 when I decided that I really want to focus on teenage mothers and because I was big and I'm big in women empowerment so I felt that it was right for me to focus on a particular area and for me focusing on teenage mothers it was really a right time because it's both from a personal experience and really they set a great gap as far as young mothers are concerned. I am tempted to ask the story about being a teenage mother. Please do. Tell us about it. If you don't mind. I love stories. No no no I don't mind. For me it was what do I say. I had a friend and one thing led to another what do I say. I just found myself expectant just immediately after I finished form 4 and at that time it was really difficult. I took quite a long time before I even told anyone that I was actually pregnant. It was a bit tough because for me I was brought up. My mother was though she passed on a few years back she was a disciplinarian so it was really tough. How do we have this conversation? How do I tell her that I'm expectant? So what did I do? I wrote a letter one morning I escorted her to the road because she would walk like a kilometer to the road before she took the vioko to go to school as she used to teach and then I gave her the letter and then I told her that I'm going to go away for two weeks and then after two weeks she needs to decide within those two weeks what she wants to do with me and for me it was like whatever happens I'll just take it and try it. So after two weeks probably after three weeks I came back home I went to my cousin's place for around two weeks so when I came back the first question my mother asked me like after two three days have you started going to the clinic and that was it and that was it yeah that was it. I mean I think sometimes there's nothing we can do it has already happened so to kimchapa yeah yeah oof have you started going to the clinic wow so how was it how what what challenges did you go through as a teenage mum the biggest which is still happening right now is stigma as was yet a teenage pregnancy there's a lot of stigma so and you know the gossip around the village is like oh so and so's daughter is pregnant you know and then people just are castigating you and all that so that was really difficult for me and sometimes when you're just walking to on the road and you're carrying my heavy burden of pregnancy you know was really really tough then again going to the hospital just facing the doctors and the nurses it is really difficult because at that time it was a very friendly environment then of course my friends we've just finished high school they're hanging out all over the place me having to stay at home and take care of my baby it was really tough that way but then what I'm really happy about is that I had a lot of support from my family and I remember I gave birth in October and in January I was back to school yeah for my first diploma yeah so it was a bit easy on the fact that I had support from my family but then even just internally the internal struggles and the external struggles from the society and so on and so forth that was a bit tough that was a bit tough and even having to breastfeed at a young age really it's not easy yeah it's not easy hey that was that was quite that was quite nice I see where the passion to start birth and beyond emanates from how many so far how many teenage mothers have you dealt with for me let me explain this I normally hold events and the events we hold like three or four events in a year as a program in an area called Gataka Inongatarongaio so what we do we invite just girls from all over the place and sometimes we have even young girls who are not yet pregnant and we have other girls who are already pregnant and some who are teenage mothers so sometimes you'll find that we hold events even for 120 200 like this Saturday we held an event which had 214 15 girls they are about so those mass events normally we distribute pads and diapers and clothes and food and all that anything we are able to get so through those events have been able to reach over 1500 girls however from the larger group of girls I normally select like 30 between 30 and 20 girls to work with a longer journey because you realize it's not easy it's not your everyday for a 14 13 year old to get pregnant so normally we walk a journey with them where we take them through counseling and mentorship and during the counseling we have a counselor who works with them and be able just to just to help them just be able to understand what they are going through and all that then we give them mentorship and during the mentorship session is where we normally teach them all these things self awareness, self esteem, negotiation skills breastfeeding, nutrition and so on and so forth we have a curricula that we normally follow so for them we work with them a journey of three months or six months so through those every other three months or six months I'm working with 30 girls who at least on a monthly weekly basis we normally meet so so far have been able to reach over 1500 girls yeah through both ways both sides of intervention oh that's that's quite a big number though but it's just came to me as a concern the other day as I was doing news that there is a very big rise over teenage mothers I remember in my film at high school somewhere yeah somewhere they were recording when we left I left about eight years ago and they were recording we had like six seven girls who were pregnant and that was the biggest number and you know the stigma was something else because we kept looking at them and we were like yeah yeah and then now it has risen to 105 recently so that time eight years ago it was like seven we were they were seven now it is 105 what do you what will you attribute to that rapid increase of teenage pregnancies what I'll say is that it's a whole lot of issues I wouldn't allude it to one particular issue but what I say one is that there is a bit of a breakdown in family and social structure you find that a long time ago taking care of a child was basically a societal approach there was a societal approach but nowadays you find that parents we are all there working which is still okay and we are busy just how they are so probably in the morning you live at six in the morning back at eight in the evening so you find even that that point of mentorship and connection with your child does not exist so many of us are just on the grind and just all over so you find that the child has been left to their school to be able to walk with them and to be able to mentor them and sometimes we will think that the school is our one stop shop place that's supposed to provide everything that that child needs so you find that they these are disconnect at the family front long time ago you will find that sometimes you find that even if it's your teacher who finds you on the wrong they are actually willing to thrash you right there if it is anyone you know the society was concerned about their upbringing of a child but nowadays you find it up to you as a parent to get to know how and what to be able to do so you find on that on that tango there is a there is a bit of a gap on that then again you also find that there is a lot of information on social media you find that and you know they I mean there is a wealth of information and some of it is negative so you find that sometimes children are really growing up very fast because they have access to internet and they can ask all these questions and get all these answers get all these ideas also so there is also that kind of an influence and basically you find that you know that influence is a child to be able to move into early sexual encounter and again now that leads to you know to teenage pregnancy it's teenage pregnancy is a whole is a whole lot of discussion what is the worst case you've dealt with well the worst case I've dealt with I came across it this year we have we have within the larger group of girls we are supporting we have a young girl who is who is who is how I don't know how to put it she's mentally challenged and and she's around 13 14 years and she's expectant when I get to hear her story no she gave birth this month actually she gave birth to a girl when I get when I got to hear about her story she she because she does not have a parent who is taking care of her who is providing for her you find that the way in which she can be able to earn an income or money or upkeep is by going out to for sexual transaction and from that she's given 200 shillings so and she goes on and goes on and goes on so she she became pregnant and she's challenged and she's you know her mother is also you know challenged to say the least and she name is she does she's not living in a really supportive family structure so for me that was a really that was a really such a depressing state because I looked at her and I was like okay fine what happens even after she gives birth right now we're trying to find out how else can we be able to support her the other really the other the other really sad part or rather sad case that I came across was also a young girl who was probably she's currently in grade five was defiled and just trying even to follow up who defiled her it's a it's a relative and sometimes I look at that girl and I'm like we don't even have the right clothes for that girl to be able to ever in she's breast feeding because you find that sometimes she she wears clothes that are you know a dress that is you know and then you know just trying even to remove her breast to be able to breast feed and I look at it like that and it's really sad and you know and just imagine in who is this who looked at this girl and just saw a woman who you can be able to you know I mean come on you know so some of those cases are really depressing they are quite a number but those two really depress me for a for a while there yeah today in the morning I was asking people one of the last time you cried and and and now you're saying that I feel like crying I'm like today will be the last time I cried can't see again it's still looking at me I'm like who does that to a child who does that who does that what so um is it is it do you have a partnership with authorities such that if you find the perpetrators you are able to forward them or how does it work okay it's a whole conundrum let me say that so sometimes a program we choose to focus on the girl and what we can be able to do for the girl and the kind of interventions we can be able to actually do for her however because we don't work alone we have community health volunteers we have people who are in the league of fraternity so sometimes you find that all these people because all of us are focused and working in the same area you find that everyone is doing what they can so yes we have partners who are in different spaces so we are always trying to work together and find out how can we be able to help this person so we can only do it through referral and you do if you are in the league of fraternity and you look for and normally you give legal intervention so follow that as far as this case is concerned personally I'm doing counseling mentorship and giving them dignity to see that is what we do so we work in a partnership just to be able to help the same person but as a program we do not follow the legal route so you just deal with the girl then what happens up on belly the authorities or the girl and the family will decide so do you help girls who who don't have parental figures or you help everyone like you know in terms of I am a teenage mum but I have parents or do you help those ones that they are teenage mothers but they don't have support for lack of a better one we don't we normally don't select the ones we help because anyone who comes through our hands and we are able to actually help we help and what I'll be able to say is that you find that even those who are having parental figures or parents you find that sometimes parents give up on their children so you find we have young mothers right now who are with us but their parents don't even give up what happens to them you know they are not even ready even just to talk to them so you find sometimes the parents just take a back seat from the child's life so for us we don't select we don't discriminate but for us currently we don't have a center or rather we don't have a shelter where we can be able to house girls so we normally support them remotely if I may say that so they normally come to our center or to the space where we have then we do our sessions and they go back home but that's how we we are able to support them that was my next question I love it to ask I love to ask do you have somewhere they can put up in a daily program during the day how effective is it it is still effective because like sometimes when I look at like now the current crop of girls we've been working with since February I look at some of their videos and they are coming and their videos right now I mean they are whole different people you know you look at them and they are like even they are the way they are able to express themselves the way they are able to communicate you find that this is someone who walked in without hope someone who walked in with a veil of shame on their head someone who walked in not knowing okay where exactly do I go because again you see we are saying that society castigates girls who are already pregnant so you see she walked in knowing that out there people do not care about me but in here I have a space a safe space where I can get a hug where people appreciate me where I can be able to ask this questions where I can be able to get this kind of help that I need so yes there is a lot of there is a lot of difference by the time they walk in and the time they leave so the bigger picture for us of course is to have a shelter or a center for the girls so at least they can we normally want to say that it's a one stop shop where at least they can come in get the counseling that you are able to give get mentorship we can be able to give them dignity kits or dignity kit is tailor made for a teenage mother the normal dignity kit has sanitary items only for a girl but our current dignity kit has sanitary items both for the girl and the baby so normally we add things like diapers and clothes and you know all that so dignity kit and she can be able to at least get some education because we have a few girls who have gone through vocational training through sponsorship by several individuals and organizations and essentially that is what we envision for them so that by the time they are we are disconnecting with them and taking them out there they can at least have some way in which they can be able to earn an income yes oh wow I was almost wondering you mentioned dignity kit at first I was like dignity, dignity kits so I wanted to say what is dignity kit now that you've said what it entails inside I was like okay yeah yeah yeah yeah makes sense yes yes yes makes sense so whole family in terms of content that you give the girls what do you mainly teach them mainly or what do you just teach them mainly we teach them parenting because we realize that there is a there is a lot of there is a big parenting gap with young mothers because you realize this girl is a child who's been thrust into parenthood so we teach them parenting some of them don't even know how to breastfeed well some of them don't know proper nutrition some of them don't even know how to hold their babies you know so and in the saco because normally you do group group training and group therapy you find that as this one is doing this right the other one is able to learn so even just the group knowledge happens there so we teach them parenting and parenting has many angles nutrition, breastfeeding you know caring for the baby mental health issues because you find some of them are already they are already feeling depressed and all these so mental health how are they able to going to be able to take care of themselves so that at least they can be able to take care of their children we teach a lot of self awareness self esteem communication skills negotiation skills section reproductive health all these things yes yes yes quite quite quite comprehensive as as we were sharing I was thinking is there is there a time particularly a time where this this this this used to happen in Kitambo I just want I'm just asking got some curiosity where you taking a girl then un atchu am toto Hannah Potea have you ever experienced that one day there we sit okay okay but it was not me who was left a baby but this is one of the stories that has popped in my head when you asked that one of the young mothers around the area that I work around just she's young she she was very young she was below 18 and she was married to this guy quote end quote then I think she was she was undergoing postpartum depression She took the baby and left it with her neighbor. I'm coming. One minute. This is a sad story. You won't laugh after this. I cried. I was just in the morning. It was about to get me. I'm coming in a few minutes. She just walked out. There was a road there. And she got knocked down by a girl and she passed on. Oh wow! I haven't thought any much yet. No, no, she went and she passed on. So there are those cases, there are cases of girls. Right now just on Saturday we were having a discussion of a young girl who gave birth. I think she was around 16 or something. And one before she gave birth she was trying to procure an abortion which was not successful. Now she's given birth, the baby is four days old. She's leaving the baby and going away and disappearing. So yes, those cases are. Personalist, joy achiyom toto izi. But there are so many cases around of family, friends who've been left with babies and girls just disappear. Because they are wondering what is this, how do I face this. And probably postpartum depression is really real especially at that age. And because most of the girls I work with they are not within, they don't have a proper family structure or family support. Which is really important. Yeah, which is really important. I wanted to ask you something. Oh yeah, I've remembered this story. In this event where someone decides to give up their child for adoption. Do you have such cases? Someone decides, let me just give this child to the orphanage. Let them take care of the child. What happens mostly you find in the area that I work with, mostly you find that the girl does not just give up the child like that. You find that sometimes they deliver the child and they leave it in front of a children's home or a church. We have quite a number of facilities that are taking care of babies. So most of them just deliver the baby. They put it in a nice gunia or something and they leave it at the door somewhere. Or in the kijiji somewhere and they just disappear. So it's not like willingly I want to give up this child for adoption. It's just they just abandon the baby. Why though? I mean come on, picture this, you're 14. You live, you know most of the girls I work with they live in the low income areas. So you find that some of them this is a very big house, very big. So they are living in a very small house. Already the family is struggling with basic. So puvati is really real for most of them. And you find that some of them are wondering okay fine when I give back to this child what is going to happen. So normally they are mental status. They are feeling like they have actually hit the wall. And they do not know where do I move, where do I go from here. You see, for me I had the option of my parent. But for them they don't have the option of my parent is going to support me. So some of them they just give up. Because again even when they were expecting they did not have a proper support or probably a proper someone to just give them some direction or the options as we say. Hey people around here they are suffering. Let's shift gears a bit from bathroom beyond. Why did you choose to do accounting? Why did you choose banking? I mean there are two different things. Well, in fact I did not choose banking. I am a technical teacher. I am a graduate technical teacher. Yes, I saw that too. I was coming there. So by the time I was graduating many years back from technical training there was a backlog of teachers who had not been employed. So going for interviews some of the people who had graduated before us would get like 15-20 marks above us. So by the time you'll get a chance to even get a job it really took us time before we were employed by TSE. So I hustled out there as a private teacher in private schools and you and I know especially in some of those places the salary, the parks are not very good. So by the time I got the offer to join the banking sector the micro finance sector I mean I was like yes please bring it on. So I found myself in a space that I got to love and a job that I got to enjoy and especially because it had a lot of autonomy I could be able to make decisions on my own. It was that these are your targets. These are the means to achieve your target. So long as you achieve your targets we are good to go. So for me I found that kind of an environment really friendly and that is how I found myself doing nine years in that sector. But after nine years I felt... So you were doing that alongside the bathroom build? Bath and beyond? I started bath and beyond. The dream, the thought, the name, the strategy, the concept was all in my mind since 2011. I left the banking sector in 2016. So before that it was just dreams, me thinking okay what do I do? I have so many books I have written. These are the strategies, what I will do, but I never really really started. If anything before 2019, the only thing I did probably I will visit a girl somewhere who is expectant or who is pregnant or who has given birth and I will not know even what to say or what to do, probably I will just give diapers or something. So I had a lot of false stats before 2019. But actually when I started in 2019 way after I had already left the banking sector. So when I was in the banking sector I had just focused on my work and just serving and just doing exactly what I was required to do. But again I still had the dream, I still had the vision and the desire. Well as we, I'm actually being told time is not always I'm like why, how did time just fly like that? So as we bring this discussion to a close what do you think what you'll do say is the greatest challenge right now for you running bath and beyond and also for the teenage mothers? One I'll say for any start-up program the main challenge is people don't believe in your dream until they actually see it. So when you're starting out you're mostly on your own you're mostly just with friends, sometimes you're in family when you're in kwaumbali they wonder okay fine, what exactly are you doing? So that supports sometimes especially at the start-up stages. So for me it's been really almost an uphill task but what I'll say is that I want to thank my partners and supporters because I've had a lot of friends who really stood by me this far so that really for me just being able to have people believe in their dream and partner with me that was the greatest challenge. But going forth just being able to upscale the programs you're having being able like now the girls you're graduating they're around 10 and just having to fundraise for them just to go to vocational school that again is a challenge for us so we are out there just looking for partners who are willing to take them back to school for vocational training and so forth so just supporting our programs that will be for us one of the greatest challenges and one of the things we really love to do. For the teenage mothers what I'll say is that our society needs to accept that teenage mothers are here with us and from statistics I'd want to say that every day in developing countries Kenya being one is that 20,000 girls give birth daily so by close of business today 20,000 girls would have given birth and in Naira that is 7.8 million brought by teenage mothers alone so you realize that if a society we do not do the right thing putting in structures that are going to support that parenting group we need to realize that teenage mothers are here with us and we need to put in proper structures to be able to support them to bring up their children so that means away from their homes we need to deal with puvati we need to deal with period puvati we need to deal in our schools we need to put proper structures to be able to support teenage mothers when they come back to school what programs can we be able to create for them to be able to learn how to breastfeed giving them proper tentables to go back to breastfeed their children in our hospitals how are we treating them are we treating them that the girls are the ones who made the mistake yet the child was conceived by two people so again as a society in churches what are we doing to support teenage mothers so I think that is the greatest challenge that we need to put in structures all over the society to be able to support teenage mothers because again the problem is here with us and you are not wishing it away today or tomorrow yeah hi it's just sad it gets somewhere and you're like what these things are happening and I'm like now that you're saying it the way you've expressed it and you're saying that we need to know that teenage mothers are here with us so we deal with it and I'm like that's one of the parts society has not made peace with the part here they are here to stay so guys put your mind up for it please give us a parting shot I'm still processing everything please give us a parting shot ah what partition do I give that in our own spaces wherever we are let us support young mothers and teenage mothers let us not be quick to judge them because you do not know how and you know what brought them to that space so there is something we can be able to do normally I say that even if you give a simple hug to a young mother it's really just enough for them and you know just reach out to a young mother near you be able to support her anything you can be able to give diapers are very expensive even take just a packet of diapers and I think you will really have done something to be able to help someone in the community you know you'll be able to have shine the light to a young mother out there thank you so much Patricia thank you for coming thank you for sharing I'm left thinking I'm left thinking and being grateful for the things I have you know times we take a lot of things for granted and I'm so grateful thank you for making time to come and talk to us that was Patricia and Jerry guys he also used to say but Patricia if you didn't get her introduction is a founder and director of birth and beyond a program that deals with teenage mothers and we have had a lengthy discussion about the parks and you know everything until surrounding teenage mothers the challenges they face and everything around it and you know it's quite a lot and you see one out there be kind to mambiwa hug one and be nice to them but if I get all emotional and cry that was the strength of a woman in case you got that interview halfway or in case you got the discussion you're getting to get the discussion the discussion sidelines you will see it on our social media handles that is on our youtube channel at Y2fi food channel but right now that was strength of a woman for this week do not touch that dial