 Podcast was roundtable round 96 monetizing a small audience All right, so a couple issues with this title which I will throw to the roundtable for the second part But the first part it it was sort of hard to label this topic succinctly without sounding like a spam artist, right? So like Monetize a small any it's today like you can do it like I want to sell you this product But this topic really is it's for anyone who has a podcast That hasn't or really won't reach Numbers traditionally considered like the starting point for I guess that's a network based ads We're you gonna go to network and they're gonna get you some ads Typically, that's like rank five thousand I think that's like the bottom end like five thousand downloads per episode in the first week or two, right? So if you still want to generate income, you only have a couple thousand I would say only we'll talk about that in a second It's this is definitely not the like get rich type of content So you'll find out pretty fast when we get in the conversation but if you're producing a podcast and It's probably oh Gosh, let's see. Oh anyways Yeah, let's just say that I lost my spot. So that's what's going on with that but anyways that said I always learn valuable things from the Content that's presented from the roundtabler. So if you're not wanting to make money from your podcast So some people, you know, if that's just not for you, you can this is the part where you bow out But I always find that in these conversations, even if they're not relevant exactly to my show You can always bring a piece of someone's experience and apply it to your so the second issue is the What's considered small so monetizing a small audience the non-spammy way we'll go with that and then what's considered small So this is the one I want to throw out to the round table. I guess let's meet the round table first Daniel J. Lewis co-host welcome back. Thank you from the audacity to podcast calm And I make my entire living with a small audience Perfect. So you qualify you can stay Learning something probably had to make money with his podcast better than learning it here Sure, he's finding out better ways to do that But new round table or Jennifer welcome to the round table. Hello. Hello Jennifer Snyder from the creating your own path podcast Happy to be here. Perfect. I didn't even have to ask what your show was. See she's a pro Yes, that's probably Stacey welcome to also new round table or Stacey welcome to your first round table. Thanks. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here It's gonna be fun I'm Stacey Sims from diabetes connections diabetes dash connections calm Which is all about inspiring and educating about type 1 diabetes Very cool. So I would say definitely niche, but I mean probably big enough to be you know I how do I ask people what their numbers are? I will say are you within? How big is your show? I think actually this topic was inspired by you and what you submitted so Yeah, I think so So that's that's my called action if you haven't gone to podcasters podcasters on table comm slash guest That's where you can sign up to be on a future round table and submit the topics you want to talk about Stacey I'm pretty sure submit is something about monetizing without a large audience. I believe that's what you said But yeah, well, I was surprised. I don't mean to just jump right in I was really surprised to find out when I started podcasting two years ago The advice I heard over and over again was don't even try to sell your podcast don't try to monetize don't get a sponsor until You have five to ten thousand regular listeners per episode You know episode four weeks later after after the first month and I was really surprised because my goal was never to get a huge audience my My audience it's small to begin with I mean my potential audience is people with type 1 diabetes and those Who love them and care about them or are interested in this and that's a really niche audience to begin with and I come from a Talk radio background. I worked for an am talk station, you know your news weather traffic station in your town You may or may not disagree with the politics that are on that station But that station does not make money on Their numbers on their large audience They make money on their niche audience And so I was really surprised when I went into different chat rooms that I'm you know I said, well, how do I get a sponsor or what do you guys think of this and most people said? Don't bother, you know, that's crazy and I thought oh I Respectfully disagree So I'm happy to talk about any numbers. I got my first sponsor with 125 downloads per month. Nice We hit I think we hit it all because Jennifer. I think you're probably in the probably couple thousand range I would say per episode. Yep Yeah, yeah Yeah, and it's it has been interesting and I had I received that same advice You know don't don't bother and honestly when I first started my show I started in 2014 So I've been doing this for a little while and And I didn't really know what I was doing So I thought well I'm just doing this to talk to cool people and then there's gonna be some people will listen But maybe not that many and it kind of snowballed from there, but I Ended up having sponsors reach out to me based on Kind of the community I've built around the show So audience is is one thing in like the numbers and the downloads but I've I've been doing a bunch of other stuff outside of the show to kind of Round out an entire I hate to say personal brand, but I mean it kind of is That always sounds icky to me, but you know, I we try to avoid the entrepreneurial speak here, but It applies it applies There's a lot of robots to do stuff on the Internet So I'm curious I'm curious then with people reaching out, you know People sometimes they start a show and they sort of have a if I build it, they'll come Mentality, I mean you don't know you think you know I was watching a documentary today about a filmmaker who said if he made this movie He thought work would just come people would see the movie They'd see how how well he was able to do and that he'd start getting emails about hey Can you can you work for us? And that didn't happen and on some level even I think a lot of podcasters have that expectation Hey, if I put this out there people will find and they'll come so were people finding you Jennifer from your podcast Or was it were they were they listening and saying we want to be on the show? Sponsor it or were they saying we know of you and it sort of has a piece of all of your brand We want to be part of that man. That's a complicated question because it's both And I don't just monetize with sponsorship. So let's throw that out there. So the sponsors were seeking me out Because They you know, maybe I did a podcast on a certain topic So for example my first sponsor was healthcare related and I had just interviewed and broadcast an episode with Somebody who used to work in the healthcare field. So, you know, I popped up somehow Somehow somebody sent somebody a link and that's how it worked for the first time around So they they are reaching out to me. I've also had some of the larger brands reach out and Not realize that I don't have 5,000 downloads for Did they just want to be part of it or they ask first because it sounds like you've had some experience with brands that That maybe had different expectations and then yeah, they didn't get those they always ask I'm always very very upfront. I have a media kit. That's like very I'm very honest and open about my numbers I'm also very open and honest about how awesome my listenership is. I happened to really like them They're very loyal And so I have had instances so I so let's back up so I did have a larger brand reach out and which was a lovely feeling and It's one that a lot of people hear on some of the larger podcasts was very excited and as soon as I said the The press kit right the media kit. It was like, yeah, call us when you hit 5,000 per episode. So So that was that I haven't reached out again because I haven't hit 5,000 per episode but the other ones and They were they were interested in kind of The niche that I was hitting right they were interested in sharing their brand story With my audience, which was again really really encouraging to me, but at the end of the day You know those sponsorships were not necessarily long-lasting because even if the say content Lead or marketing manager, whoever my contact was they understand the power of brand storytelling To various audiences, but the bottom line is still the bottom line and when there's not they don't see the ROI They don't see the click-throughs right away. They don't see Is that like a director's response? Did you have a code? Is that what they yeah on some of them? I've had a code some of them. It's been URL So that's trackable obviously so What their metrics were didn't align necessarily with What we aligned on in the beginning meaning that brand storytelling was the the key metric, right, right? Sorry, no, that's okay. They see do you have you had any brands approach you? I mean, I imagine doing a diabetes part. It's very specific, right? And so have you done any deals with what we consider brands, right? We've got these new Apple stats. Maybe we'll talk about this later, but we've got these new Stats that are coming and everyone thinks this is going to bring the brands coming because they can measure things, right? I don't necessarily think that's the case or at least I don't think that's what you want, but Stacy, do you have you worked with big brands? Are they approached you because of your show? Well, yeah, but what's interesting about this is my very first sponsor Are we doing new names? We okay to talk names? Yes Okay, so I'm sponsored by animus, which is a division of Johnson and Johnson and I think I'm the first podcast I think to be sponsored by anybody involved in Johnson and Johnson I haven't been able to track anybody else down on that and what what comes with that is a lot of compliance. I mean, these are medical You know, this is a medical issue. It's a medical. It's not a medical show, right? I don't give advice I'm not a doctor. I say all that but it was a very interesting partnership because unlike a lot of the podcast spots You hear and what I used to do on talk radio, which is like, let me tell you about my friends down at the car dealership These guys are awesome and I'm driving around in my minivan and we have a great time and It has to be very carefully scripted and approved because I don't want to make any mistakes or mislead anybody And they certainly don't want me to do that either but we have to make it sound I'm not telling any tales that my listeners don't already know You know, you want to make it sound like it's a human being you don't want to be reading a script so um when I got When I partnered with them it was because even with my 125 fabulous downloads We have used and loved their product for a long time And so I was able to talk about my personal experience with it Now since then the show is growing I get like 2,500 to 3,000 downloads per episode per month And that brought in another sponsor that I had also approached Just for a partnership and it worked out really well. I do longer term Sponsorships I don't really want anybody coming on for less than three months And these two wonderful people and companies have come on for a year each time So I'm I've been approached. It's interesting and I'm sure Jennifer and I know Daniel You guys have got have had to have this happen to you you get approached by a sponsor But they don't necessarily want a commercial They want more of a segment. Yes, and my show is very newsy. I'm a news best my background I do not sell content I sell an ad So that's been a really interesting experience for me when I have been so to answer a long way to answer a question Right is I've been approached Since really the last year as my profile has gone up in the community more to Can we buy a segment and so far the answer has been no and I'm I really feel like I have to be very careful because my show You know can help or hurt if I'm not careful. Yeah, so with having 100 I mean Johnson and Johnson Coming in at 125 downloads Um And being probably they're one of their first if not their first podcast like how does that happen? Did you approach them? I mean, why would they say yes to that that is so small? That's got to be the best example of a small Because I'm so fabulous. No, you know what happened here. You know what happened here. We had a pre-existing relationship Okay, um, I an animus is a very is a small part of johnson at johnson So I'm not, you know, I don't want to get it still seems like a gamble I mean most companies, you know, they're not interested in anything to do with something that's small Yeah, you know, I think and that's a good point. I think it goes to their knowledge of my audience, which was was their audience Um, how difficult is it to find people who might I mean, have any of you heard of animus? No The only thing I know about animus and this keeps coming in my mind is it's the device in assassins creed That allows the assassins to relive their ancestors memories. It is not It is that thing's called animus. You're probably not pronouncing it, right? No, that's just gonna turn into a completely different He used an animus insulin pump for 10 years and I don't he's he just turned 12. I don't let him play those games So he's gonna when I tell him that I'm not another sponsor opportunity is what Hi, I'm a suburban mom who drives a minivan, but when I choose a video game Oh boy, I can hear it now I mean, that's hysterical But the real answer is we had a relationship for a few years They have bloggers and community people and um, they don't have those programs anymore But I had been a blogger for them. So I said trust me This is gonna be great and and thank goodness. They did that was really somebody in the marketing department understands that value of sharing to a very focused audience Okay, that's good. It was yes. It was a wonderful person who I know had a lot of issues Um, and that she fought some battles for me, but yeah, right? If you don't mind sharing how much were they actually paying when you only had 125 downloads per episode Okay, I don't why don't we Okay ballpark. So wait, so here's the hard I'll tell you You tell me why you want me to tell you and then I'll I'll share my members Well, this is information that people don't they this no one knows where to start and if they get approached They don't know what to ask these are independence. They're not involved in media These are just podcasters, right? So, you know and at some point you have to it has to be enough to be worth it I mean if you Yeah, I mean you are at some point $100 is nice and round If you're because you said you're gonna tell us It's a little higher than that a couple. But what I do is in relationship I'm sorry sub 500 Less than 500 less than 500 Dollars or less than 500 fewer than oh, oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, so let's say between to start out between one and 200 dollars discounted appropriately for a longer length of sponsorship Okay What would so Advice to podcasters who want to who have a small audience who want to maybe approach a brand They're not being approached, but they they think something's a really good fit Where what's your minimum Daniel? You asked that question. What's your minimum? Oh for me no, Daniel go ahead. Yeah, I think that's a great question. Well for me, um Like are you saying minimum number of downloads or minimum price price like you you want to approach a brand and you want it Right, you know, you want this thing so you're almost willing to give it away So people will do they'll say I don't know to I'll do 150 dollars per episode. Yeah, you know We're not doing a cpm model here because that's not going to work for a small audience Maybe we can go into that a little bit, but yeah Yeah For me, I think well, what is it worth to me to interrupt my content have to remember to do this You know break my train of thought or whatever or if it's something that I want to do and have ideas for ways I can tie it into the content and make a fun transition into it But also thinking about For my audience, what is it worth? Interrupting my audience interrupting their train of thought their their flow with me What is it worth to risk that to risk? And so for me Minimum 100 200 dollars, I mean regardless of the size of the audience. I just feel like Anything less than a hundred dollars per episode regardless of the size of the audience. I feel like it's not even worth it So, I agree. Yeah, so jennifer daniel maybe stacey. I mean stacey is this Do you have a job in addition or is this full-time income for you for the podcast? I would be in the blog. I do not have a full-time job at the moment I do voice work. I mean I have my own company and I but I wouldn't call this is certainly not enough to be full-time One of the reasons I didn't do the podcast I wanted to start it years ago was I did have a full-time job and I knew how much time this would take So this is what I do, but I only do it probably 15 hours a week Right and so podcasts are part of jennifer and daniel's business. So You know, I don't know how that factors into what you need to make You know, you're not doing the podcast jennifer. You're not doing the podcast because Obviously you don't start for reasons of money, but now as you look at it as part of your business What's that consideration when I think we've got jennifer at a perfect time because she's in the middle of Navigating this with her business, right? Right. So, um So I started the show and I I wasn't I mean I was laughing, but I wasn't really kidding I started it so I could talk to cool people like flat-out. I just wanted to It's really cool people. Um, so, you know people who I admired for a really long time And I was working um from home by myself and so I was lonely Those were the reasons Um, so, uh, so that's why I started it. Um, but you know for seasons in now um, it has become A lot of things to me. Obviously it still allows me to talk to cool people. Um, it provides some income But not much. I mean, I won't I won't lie to you. It's it's not necessarily paying any bills so, um, but what I've been able to do with it Is it's become a calling card in a lot of ways a lot of people have hired me for i'm a freelance writer. Um, I've Gotten jobs because I do this show because people know I know how to ask questions They know I know how to interview people and they know from my my writing clips that I can turn it into something Um, you know legible. So when you when you work with a brand or sponsor or whatever like Do you have a minimum that you are able to take because it's going to take I mean the podcast takes a certain percentage of your time You're gonna do it regardless. So at that point how much does price even matter like you're or if you're going to put it out There already I'm I'm in the same camp That It's not worth it to interrupt the content. That's that is that is where I kind of draw the line So, um any I was nodding along when you were saying under under a hundred dollars There's just no way so you're doing so you're doing them as like a pre that you're not going to even put them in the middle of your content I do but what I'm saying is I'm not going to charge Like if I did a cpm model it'd be ridiculous like anything There's just no way and so and I've had um like those uh Ad agencies contact me before and tell me exactly how much they could pay and all this stuff and I'm like Wow, that's not worth my time number one and it's not worth interrupting Well, that's that's what I'm getting at too. So say someone's approached and it's their first time they're approaching They're like they're excited and you almost don't want to say no because you've never had someone approach you and say We want to be on your podcast But they want to give you either a cpm and you have 2 000 downloads and your cpm is 10 dollars per thousand You're making 20 bucks. It it's hard to say no. It's hard to turn down any money. It's hard to say no, but At some level, I think we should we need to protect that content, right? So I would agree with that however I will say so let's say If you do a weekly show and you don't take any breaks So you do 52 shows a year and that's 20 20 dollars per episode Like let's say you if you get a long-term contract out of somebody Then hey, you know, that's something you have to decide. I think it's up to each individual to decide sort of Where their lines are Good. Well, stacey, you said you didn't like to do less than three months minimum So, I mean in that situation where a brand comes along and if they do sign long term It's almost like they've got you long term, right? And if it's working for them, they don't have to renegotiate because ideally you probably want to renegotiate that I would renegotiate Oh, we mean if you lock it in for a year Yeah, I mean I'd hate to lock in 20 bucks per episode for a year Yeah, that's true And I think to go with with your answer your question earlier about when we have these newer folks who never thought about monetizing Because obviously not everybody does and and I should be very upfront Yeah, I'm happy to talk about this topic and I think I do it well But I'm not definitely not in this for the money. I mean it is it's I want to cover my costs I want to make it worthwhile You know to travel to these different diabetes conferences that I go to I just want to be clear that I'm not As you said in the beginning, you know, it's not like sneak oil salesmen We're on like well, if you're not going to pay me, you know, I'm where's where's my check for this episode, you know, it's not Nobody who stays with podcasting in general 99 percent. They're not Yeah, I just wanted to be I felt like I was coming across like perhaps, you know I just didn't want there to be a misunderstanding But I've been doing this for two years and I think that that Many people though do undersell themselves. So if someone comes to and says I want to Sponsor you that first one Oh, man, if you don't already have a media kit as Jennifer mentioned and I have one too They're very simple to put together doesn't have anything fancy It also forces you to think about what you're doing and as you're putting that kit together if you realize As Daniel said is it worth my time to remember to put these ads in is it worth my time? You're now working for that company in a way Yes Second audience you've got your audience and your advertiser You can't just say, you know, I mean the one that comes to mind is blue apron or whatever But you know, we hear people do these crazy ads and they're just talking and I want to say don't you're not going to keep that sponsorship They you know, you didn't like the food or you didn't I mean, I've heard I don't know about you guys but you hear things sometimes and You have to understand that it's a it's a responsibility to your sponsor and you have You know, you have to balance that with what it is worth for you So if it's not worth it to make money Don't sweat it go have a good time But also if you're going to make money Don't sell yourself short because as you said you don't want to lock in for six months at 10 bucks an episode and then all of a sudden be discovered You need to have some safeguards in place like right now. I'm renegotiating everything for 2018 You might ask you guys some questions not about specifics, but just about You know where to put sponsorships and things like that because my joke was always in talk radio I feel like a NASCAR driver You know put the stickers all over me because you know, I had 10 sponsors a morning on talk radio So every 15 minutes it was like I don't think a podcast is the right place for that That's one of the ways that with podcasting we can make our sponsor ads much More engaging and more valuable to the sponsors and and I enjoy On my once upon a time podcast about the tv show I enjoy when we have a sponsor Because I look for a way to make that sponsorship ad memorable to make it funny in some way You know some segue some crazy segue Just as it is our audience loves our segues into thanking our crowd funders but Making some kind of way that it's relevant now in my very early days of podcasting I took go to meeting and go to my pc Sponsors I mean who didn't back in those early days through raw voice blueberry lipson anyone like that And trying to do a go to my pc ad In a clean comedy podcast It just didn't fit Why would people who want to listen to laugh be interested in go to my pc or some other product like that? It just didn't work But if there could be a product that in some way is more relevant and it not be that approach that Okay, everybody now. It's the commercial break when people hear that even if you don't announce it outwardly like that I think that's when people decide 30 seconds skip. So Apple recently announced they're going to open the treasure box, right? The black box is open They're going to let us know when the worst box adds Pandora's box, right? Very good It's good, but you're going to find out people are skipping I mean if you don't make it engaging like Dan you said people almost look forward to that ad You need them to actually hear it, right? So it actually we have the ability if the advertiser understands They let us sculpt the ad at least work with them to make it engaging for the audience But we've we've spent gosh We are almost halfway through and we're talking about probably the single worst way to make money from your podcast, especially this small audience Which is brand sponsorship like I think I tweeted the other day You know smart podcasters probably don't even want a brand sponsorship and an apple lets this Go the number is open and brands rush to sponsor on podcasts not going to happen Niche podcasters are going to take over when that happens Yeah, well, and so that's what we have right with a small audience. We're really talking about a niche podcast We're super focused. What are some other ways even this show this show is only going to reach a couple thousand in that first couple weeks per download so Brand sponsorships not even the way I would want to go What are some other ways you guys are monetizing because we talked about how this is sort of like a Um a totality of all the different ways if it's supporting your business sure Jennifer. What else are you doing to monetize a smaller audience? I like it. We're just like changing the whole title of this every time we say it So, um, so I do want to you mentioned sponsored content. Um, I have started doing that Um, so what is that for you? What is sponsored content that okay? So my shows come out on thursdays and I'm doing a Tuesday tips and tricks episode and that's a sponsored content So it's separate. It's on a different day and trust me my listeners know when my Podcast is supposed to come out because when I see they see a Tuesday show. They think I've made a mistake You know because they're like, hey it went live at the wrong time. Um, so I'm like, hey, they're listening. That's great. They're engaged. Um so um So I have been doing that. I have been offering that to sponsors and they've been You know, some of them have been taking me up on it. So what does that sound like though? What's a sponsored? What's the difference between a regular episode and a sponsored? It's um, it's still interview format, but the content is different. So um on my Thursday shows I don't have experts. I have People who are just like me trying to make a go at creating their own path Whatever that looks like so in and I I tend to only interview people who aren't working in creative fields So the sponsored shows I still kind of get like their origin story Um, but really the goal is for them to be experts So I interview them does your guest pay to come on the show? Yes. Okay Yes, but knowing full well that it's a Tuesday episode versus right It's but it's not a commercial at the beginning of the show and then you do an interview. It's right person. Okay, exactly I mean it and again, I'm a journalist. So it's not easy for me to do that, right? So it's it kind of goes against What I'm used to the return for them is that they might get business through this episode Yeah, I mean it's to me. It's all about brand storytelling But for me for me to make it okay for me to do this, you know what I mean in terms of like morally speaking Um, it it has to help my audience in some way. So they have to be able to work anyways if it does right and so Like I said, I don't do like what's your you know, three ways to Do xyz. I don't have shows like that on thursdays But for Tuesday tips and tricks that makes sense and if I have an expert sponsor and usually they should be experts in their field, right? Um, then That makes sense to me. It as long as it help is helpful for my audience. Yeah, so I like I like that There's an happening. So that's one other way, right? That's one other way Um, so the other ways that I'm doing this like I said this the doing the podcast for now I'm in the fourth year. Um, it has landed me other jobs Um, not necessarily an audio but other writing gigs. Um, I've also built out programs around the show. So Um, this year I launched what I'm calling the c y op artist residency. So In the past I had been laying out and designing pull quotes because my guests are really really smart And so they say really amazing things. And so I've been pulling out pull quotes. It's also pinnable It's very terrible content. Um, and I knew that I wanted to make them more beautiful because I am not an artist or a designer I just play one on tv So don't don't let her fool you. She is she does have an eye. Don't thank you. I appreciate I I appreciate that but but there are people who are far more talented. So um, so what I did is I opened up a paid residency where I Pay an artist to do the pull quotes for me And I'm turning around and turning those into physical products. So art prints other items that I can sell in my shop Shrag um But but not like The name of my podcast right coffee cups. Yes. That is definitely swag. Yes. Yeah, so I'm not necessarily looking at doing that too though Aren't you a coffee cup? I can't get a like a button or something t-shirt There might be an enamel pin in my future. Don't count it out But but it's going to be cool Um, so I don't know but but the artist residency has been really interesting. Have I broken even on it? Maybe You know because it is paid. I wanted to make sure I could pay the artist I'm not asking anybody to work for free. It goes against again those morals Always get in my way. But um, but it's important for me. Um, so, uh, I mean, we'll see what happens It's definitely an experiment but in order to get physical products into my shop that are actually, you know Going to potentially make some money to support again. It's like a Self-sustaining model basically. Hopefully they'll help me do the artist residency in the future. Um, but also Pay me for my time for creating all of this free content. Yeah, you have another cool physical product Which we'll get back to which I want to hear more about but um, I also want to point out because this audience Will like this. I mean, she is jennifer's using a yeti and do you hear how good that sounds? See if you know how to use it The tool it sounds good. Oh, do I sound okay? It's an ongoing joke of condenser microphones and yetis Yeah, I am using one too. Say you guys sound fantastic. I just want to give you props for that. So Stacey, how else are you monetizing beyond the brand sponsorship or is there any other way you're monetizing the podcast? you know, it's tough it's a tough question for me because um I'll answer in two parts diabetes connections is not something that I really want to monetize To the instigree. Um, I don't think ethically it works for me from where that show is Um, I will quick can I ask you how long the episodes are that just pot them? Sure Okay, I started out at like 25 minutes and I would edit the heck out of them because you know I come from radio and then I thought this is really dumb and now I let them go So, um, I probably go from anywhere from 45 to um an hour 15 Did you have any reaction from the audience when you made that change? um, it grew But my audience has grown from day one Um, I think it's and as as much as I'd like to say and it is a good show But as much as I'd like to say, you know, it's me It's also an audience that is so hungry for information right that it needs to connect And one of the things I do on the show is like I connect people I inform them about community activities. I mean, it's It's a really needed show So and I'm in that community. So I kind of know I know what the needs are Right. Um, you made less edited and no one complained That's a good. Yeah, and I added I added, you know, I have like my superstar of the episode You know the american ninja warrior who has type one and then I have my community connection Who's the mom from Idaho just trying to get her kid to diabetes camp? You know, so I do that kind of stuff and it's really helped out and I used to try to limit those episodes or the interviews So but monetizing it is tough in terms of asking my audience I know a lot of people do that and have great success that way. We haven't touched on that Um, I cannot be talking about like a patreon or just donation. Yeah like patreon or donations I could do that. I guess but you know people with chronic conditions are so strong for money I just don't feel like it would be fair I mean, you know, not saying that everybody's poor or was type one diabetes But you know, if I have an extra 10 bucks a month, I'm going to probably spend it on paying down my insurance Company bills and things like that or I like that though. I mean, I like that you're Consider considering the specifics of your audience and that they have this additional cost Right, there's no coming. So, you know, that might be a great way You know, even with the ads and say, hey, you know, I'm making something for this You don't have to it cost you nothing but we get to bring this great content So in some cases there are There are audiences you could appeal to and say, hey, we have ads. We'd like to get rid of those Pay us some money. But in your case, I mean, I You need to know your audience and the consideration I think is Well, and the other thing is I have to be careful who I Sponsor who sponsors me and who I approach because there are controversies just like there are in any community There are companies that You know, I might approach or I might not because am I going to be beholden To their product when perhaps I might not want to be so the the that's the first part The second part is I was recently approached about doing a corporate podcast You know, somebody completely different completely different topic not health related at all So I I'm putting a proposal together for that They're not sure they want to do it. But if they want to do it, they want to do it with me So that could be really cool. And I saw on twitter. Didn't somebody say that you can get like a thousand dollars a minute Wasn't there some crazy? I'm kidding I'm sure there's a lot of those, yeah The ridiculous thing that said like that's a well-produced corporate podcast I think you got that opportunity as a result of doing a podcast already. Oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, I also got it as an opportunity of talking about podcasts and telling everybody I know that they need to do one like that's a great topic You should do a podcast And somebody turned around to me and said, all right, I'm calling your bluff Coming to my office because my company needs a podcast. Nice. And I also do voice work Yeah, we'll see what happens there. There he wants to do it. But we'll see but I also do voice work commercial work I was on the radio Look, I've been working full time for 22 years and when I finally wanted to stop getting up at 2 30 in the morning I wasn't sure I'd really do anything full time again So I'm very fortunate to be in a position where I can work part time right now So we'll see so I have to be careful if I was in a position where I had to monetize this podcast I would start a second one That was not This type of health condition related. I don't know what I would do, but I just don't think I love the idea of doing a branded show like that. Jennifer. That's great I mean let them pay to come on you've got the skills and you can tell their story and help You know bring it out But for my topic, it's just to me. It's just not ethical Yeah, and to me that makes so much sense um anytime you're dealing with With anything that might be sensitive in that way I would I would probably err on on the side of caution as well And I should note, you know, when I talk about the sponsored shows, um, you know the sponsored content Part of the reason I started doing those is because I was getting so many pitches From people who wanted to sell their stuff on my show Their books their courses their expertise and I don't interview those people on my show And if they listened to my show, they would know that but why do you think you're getting that? Because I mean someone else could have an audience of a couple thousand and then they'll get any approaches So do you think it's because it's business related or what do you think is attracting that? um, I Think it's a combination of things. I do think because it's business related. Um, and The people who so I started my show in early 2014. So before serial. I always call it a pre-serial podcast Um, you see oh wait, no BS But anyway, so I'm aligned with some of the other podcasters that kind of came out at that time um, and and we're also in the same Realm as me that we're having similar discussions on our show. However, I very I have a very narrow Scope or or group of people who I will interview whereas those podcasters do talk to experts They do talk to the life coaches and the business coaches and the health coaches and the life coaches and all the coaches Is one of these shows maybe on fire? No, I'm running joke. Yeah. No, no Most of mine are most of the people who kind of came out along at this around the same time as I did or And and who where we'll we'll all show up on the related shows in iTunes, you know at the bottom I think No They've been doing it for a long time. I don't know. Uh, yeah, I guess you're right. They haven't been around a long time Yeah, um, these are like Women hosted shows who are talking primarily to other women about careers, right? Um So so I I think I do show up in those like searches or at the well not searches But you know what? I mean the related shows at the bottom of iTunes a lot, which is great for Discoverability, you know what I mean for other listeners. Um, but I do think that I'm sort of on that PR hit list. Yeah, and so I get everybody who's writing a book and I get a lot of health related ones I'm like, I that's not what my show is about Give me diabetes when it sends them some of my way I will it's easy to call them when I mean I get approached by such cheap gear come It's just instant delete because you know, it doesn't have a name on it. I mean, they they clearly haven't listened or watched anything So well when I get dear sir or madame, that's when I know I can go ahead and ignore it. Yeah But otherwise, I mean I do try and let them know, you know, hey I don't necessarily interview people like, you know, whoever whoever it is Right on my Thursday show, but I do, you know, if you have Wellness tips for the the business community then you can come on on Tuesday and it'll cost you. Yeah. Yeah, Daniel Uh podcasting is part of your business not your entire business. So how are you factored? How does what role does that play and then how does it work into income for your entire business? My business exists because of with a podcast the podcast Feeds the business and the business then pays the bills Didn't you have a business before you podcasted though? No, um, well, you did web design or something technically, no The order of things was I did have this freelance business since 2001 I think or maybe a little bit earlier than that But I'd been working full-time as a designer in multiple multiple capacities at an organization before And while I was at that organization I launched the audacity to podcast simply because I felt like I had something to say about podcasting in the space Ray and I launched around the same time actually and um It was because of the response for that podcast that I realized that hey There could be a business here and I was already interested in leaving the job where I was at that time Where I'd accomplished all my goals and was getting burned out Right, but you didn't because the podcast was going to support you full-time, right? Or did you not the podcast directly? But the podcast was to me the missing piece that I thought oh here I want to be a web designer a freelance web designer and podcasters need websites So if I have a podcast about podcasting then I could market my service as a web designer to podcasters It didn't work out that way because it's like thousands of dollars for a website but um I in my mind though it was that connection that here I have an audience that wants to get my services in some way And that's a business model that I can grow And so The podcast was that missing piece that connected me from leaving my job to starting my own business The business is now significantly different from back then and it's changed over the years So what role does podcast play in your income? It plays some direct and indirect ways I would say affiliate income is kind of a direct thing because it's affiliate income for products I mention I recommend I talk about Whether it be wordpress plugins or themes or microphones or mixers or apps or anything like that I'll talk about them. I'll mention them. I'll recommend them in relevant contexts and because this is all relevant and genuine And it's in context. It's not like this episode is brought to you by the electoral voice re 320 No, it's it's all completely relevant and I'm not pushing it either to say go buy this microphone now and go to such and such Over time it continues to build and build to the point that my amazon.com affiliate income by itself only from the united states store that Um earns far more than my podcast would if it was sponsored And my amazon.com affiliate income pays my mortgage and then some That's amazing. And um, so affiliate income is huge for me And it continues to grow as I create more episodes Affiliate is probably like the easiest way for people to start but it doesn't work for everybody, right? I I do okay in affiliate, but we we deal in gear We deal with people who see our content because they're looking for a piece of gear and then they buy it Um, someone else, you know some podcaster that's doing I'm trying to think of a show, you know a sci-fi show Maybe they only can link to books. They're talking about right So affiliate somebody like me would be like a nightmare. I mean, I think I guess I could find some like a What's a product like but I mean can you imagine like I'm selling an insulin pump amazon has everything So I imagine I can't get a take back on that and that's the worst thing ever I mean you'd have to you have to tell them that this one's right for you Even though that one might be better for the medically and then insurance companies and there's a there are Products and services. I've talked about in my podcast and I've said Outwardly said here's my reviewer of this. I don't like this I can't see anyone benefiting from this. I do not recommend you buy this Maybe you like it, but I really don't think this is a good product. And you know what people do they buy it They go against my advice, but the thing is they're not looking for me to Um, tell them what necessarily to buy it seems that often they're looking for validation on it Or they just want more information And so then my critical review of something points out the flaws and then they decide Okay, I'm fine with those flaws. Yeah, I want these other things and they still buy it. So it's It's not that overly pushing this or to say I think you should buy this one because I get paid a lot for it Right. So we're talking about how much trouble I could get in. I wasn't I know gosh, that'd be terrible. So low threshold Affiliates super easy to get into I believe if you are sharing stuff that you trust and would use yourself And you like to let me there's no reason that you shouldn't get a piece of that if you're sending a ton of money to a big brand Have an affiliate link and that's easy to it's easy to make a little money But and here's the easiest thing you could do is if your podcast is In any way about any kind of niche Whether that's a tv show or a comic book or whatever You could have a page on your site where you collect All of the best things that are relevant to that thing and those are all affiliate links that you could call it store or recommendations or something like that And you could tell people Yeah, if you want to buy all your figurines or if you want the list of the best places to watch this tv show Or if you want to get all of the memorabilia that goes along with this thing We made a page for you that lists all of our favorites or our favorite t-shirt designs or whatever it is That can be a great thing that you're providing a service then to your audience You're preventing them from having to go out looking for all of this stuff And you're also able to monetize that Jennifer you came up with you have a physical product that you recently put out. I'm speaking of a book Yeah, that what did that that grew out of what? I mean that wasn't something you went in Is that part of the podcast or well, um so basically What I have realized over the last several years of doing this show and Writing for publication and that sort of thing is that I basically ask questions for a living and then I turn it into something Whether that's audio or written content. I don't do a lot of video but but uh that book itself actually Came out of this instagram project that I did so it's called 100 days of discussion. Um, and in 2015 An artist and a magazine came together and did the 100 day project And it was this instagram challenge where you do something for 100 days and you you Snap a photo and you put it on instagram supposed to hold you accountable to actually do the whatever creative thing You were supposed to be doing for 100 days And I thought well, um, I've failed at these projects before because I've tried to do various 365 day projects and Failed miserably And I thought well, why don't I ask questions and why don't I ask my husband questions? And then have him ask me the same question so that we have a conversation after work That's different than like hey, how was your day? Great. How was yours? Awesome like, you know, let's talk about other other things that maybe we wouldn't think of and it sort of Came from we we actually I kind of made him play that road trip game with me. Um back in 2014 Uh when we were driving a very very long distance So, um, so anyway, I did this instagram project in 2015. I went for the whole 100 days and my instagram community Loved it. They loved answering the questions. They loved the discussion that came up from it. Um And they were just really engaged even though I had a small instagram audience, right? So, um, having A like a large percentage of a very small audience be engaged in something. Um Well, it was really validating, you know, obviously and um So that was great and I kind of Put a bow on it set it aside and then people were continuing to like reach out to me and say Hey, um, I just pulled up your hashtag on my last road trip and we used the 100 days of discussion on my road trip I was like, awesome. That's how it actually started in the first place uh, other people have actually said that they were um using the discussion questions as prompts for, um ESL students so teaching people how to read and write English. Yeah, and I thought oh, I almost I teared up a little bit when I heard that one because I thought oh my gosh That's perfect. And um, I just kept thinking like well, how How crappy is it that they have to look through instagram for this like I want to make something that They could hold in their hands or or um download in some way And so I decided to adapt it and turn it into a book. So it's a physically printed book I also have the audiobook and e-book version available as well. Um And so that that book actually helped me Launch the artist residency. So the funds that I've been able to Um to kind of pull out of out of that revenue Is helping to pay my artist resident for the show. So it it is all sort of connected. Um Do you filter that book through do you sell through your podcast that book? Is it late enough or? Um, I mentioned it. I mentioned it, especially if it's on sale But uh, you know, it's not necessarily something that I kind of like hawk on the show on a regular basis So I you mean because it doesn't matter here because a small audience You found content that that small audience enjoys And I mean it seems like a risk. How many did you print like a hundred of those and you're gonna sell them all 150 it seems scary and it was a huge investment printing books is not cheap as it turns out and You know, especially when you're self publishing it and self promoting it and Writing it and editing it and designing it and all those things. Um, you know, it was it was A lot of work, but um, but it was totally worth it And what I did is I just said hey you guys I think I'm thinking about doing this thing And I put it out on instagram and people were stoked. Was it worth it As a personal project more or was it worth it money monetarily? Both I would say both. Um, it's not like it raked in the dollars. I mean, I can't sell a book for that much It's not like I can sell it for 50 bucks or something. Um, so, uh, so the price point and you know, I'm competing with amazon, which is the dumbest thing to do ever Just because they have free shipping on everything. Um, but uh, It has it's made enough so basically the the the My justification for doing physical products I want to make enough of something to make enough money to create the next thing and then to create the next thing Because that's How it works and it's and when you're talking about creating physical items that require An artist to do something or a writer to do something or anybody to do anything that it costs time and money So there was some upfront costs and it was absolutely terrifying to Like give a printer who's an awesome printer I've known him for years and he's very very good at what he does but um But to give him a check for and I'll just put it out there was $900 to print 150 bucks So it was you know, ouch, you know, that was a big chunk of change for me But I knew that enough people Would get behind it and I also knew that enough people wanted to see the artist residency happen And they knew that those funds were going to be kind of funneled in that direction Yeah, and that's sort of a patreon model people are supporting you, you know, and not only just the book They want the book they get something valuable, but they also want to support you and it's not It's not it's not dated that that can live on right? It's something you can You always look at so you're not concerned with I have to get this sold in three months It's a calendar or something right so well, and I there might be calendars coming but uh, but you know Now that's risky. It is risky. I know um, but you know So do we think that someone with a small audience now there are different obviously different um philosophies here about wanting to go full-time with a podcast and that being a small audience and then just all the way down to You know, it'd just be nice if it covered the cost of doing a podcast hosting in a website and stuff like that and just my time um, but do we think that it is Do we think it's completely irrational for someone to start a podcast reach? Let's say a thousand really Um focused audience members. I guess maybe those thousands need to be engaged. We hear this right they say the uh the thousand Really engage people can run like and can basically Pay you enough money to live on but do we really think you guys think that that is It doesn't seem a smart direction, but this is something we can work towards Well, you know, I would just jump in and say I think that I would say yes Because I would like to see people especially who produce podcasts if they want to monetize it to take it seriously Because I hear a lot of people say well, I'm thinking about monetizing my podcast, but nobody makes any money in podcasting Why would you say that about yourself? Why would you shoot your industry in the foot like that? I think it's one thing to say. I'm here for fun. This is my hobby Wonderful. I think it's another thing entirely to say I'd like to make a little money or I want to make some but I I can't do it because nobody does it I feel like we all talk ourselves off of this It's just so odd to have come from Talk radio where I know the audience was like, you know, there's the audience here's the talk radio and here's the money So it can be done and it's hard to be your own salesperson But I'd like to say I mean I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anybody. I'm just trying to give you more confidence Because this can be done. I and I'm not making a mortgage payment, but I sure it's heck. I'm making my car payment And you know, well, I continue. I'm gonna continue with this podcast whether I'm paid or not. This is my passion I know I'm helping people. I'm helping myself This is a no-brainer for me. But if I wanted to monetize a smaller podcast Yeah, you give me those thousand listeners and a great topic that I'm passionate and interested in Heck, yeah, I think I'm gonna do that And I think that might be one of the great takeaways is you start a podcast because you really want to talk about this thing And you grow a community and then there might be other opportunities that spring from that or maybe another show You can write you can you know, you can teach Well, even another podcast because here's here's one of the things we face too One of the hard parts is once we've put our passion project out there And it's going and it's strong and then we want to flip on the monetization switch That can be tough for an audience that didn't have that before right point. Yep What do you do? I mean, you probably have all started everyone started as something that was Was not asking for any money or didn't have an ad in it. And then at some point That switch went on. I don't know if anyone has seen any kind of response from their audience in that or how they I was so early that those 125 people stuck around like what? It was very early on for me, which I think helps. It's a great point. It really is I think that switch could be a little bit easier if your audience is already used to your giving them calls to action You're giving them something to do and all that changes is that the something to do Is to buy something like subscribe and rate my show on iTunes, please Something other better than that. I would hope it's the only way ever here Something else about this is you have to look at Those who are making lots of money in podcasting How much are they investing in this investing in time? There's this hope. I think that You know, two guys can sit around talk on a microphone for an hour publish it immediately afterward and then get rich That's not realistic. No unless No, it's not realistic at all. It really takes on a big investment like so when I talk about numbers and and whenever I say Numbers, I am not bragging. I don't have much to brag about I But I'm working at this full time I work like all day on a podcast episode producing content researching it preparing it Publishing it promoting it. I even have someone else edit it for me So I can focus more on making a better episode and then the rest of the week I'm working in my business working building Platform building products building services and stuff that I can sell then through my podcast So it's not just sitting down recording an episode and making lots of money or making some money So I think the amount of income you could get Is directly proportional to how much time And expertise you invest in what you do. Yeah, I think the biggest misconception about Making a living from podcasting is that it's set it and forget it Right that like you can just like you said put it out there and it's just gonna I don't know magic will happen There's unicorns and rainbows. I guess I don't know. I don't know where that came from necessarily but the people who are making a lot of money on podcasting also have entire teams to manage All of their content written and otherwise audio written that's part of that up for an investment, right? He's been he went big but um Oh, I totally lost what I was gonna when I was gonna say Was it talking about set it and forget it? No. Yeah, no. Um Anyways, go on I don't know. I was just saying there's just It's not um for me I try to be careful not to say you'll never make anybody in podcasting But I do try to make sure that people understand because people always ask me to pick my brain about podcasting I do try to make sure That they understand that it's not um It's it's not something where you just sit around and Money just magically comes your way. And that's it. That's what I was thinking is that I bet I bet for all of us the perception is They make their living with their podcast I know that happens that happens to me people think they seem on youtube or pot and they're like I just think that's how I make money and it's like actually my family thinks that my family members who don't understand what a podcast is They they that's all they see right? That's like the what the people see the forward-facing. Yeah Because they don't read what I write I guess but whatever That's another podcast It's about to get emotional here on the round table. Sorry. I'm taking it there. Um, but no, I do think that Um, there is that perception that because this is the thing that is maybe the most visible to people That this is bringing in all the bacon. Um, it's not I Yeah, well and it's hard too because I'm doing this. Um, you know, everybody has different schedules And I would kind of love to spend more time on it, but I'm also I'm really supposed to be a stay-at-home mom right now I mean that's supposed to be after, you know, my husband and I work this stuff out where I work full time He worked full time and then we made this switch a couple years ago And um, you know, I was texting earlier because my kids are downstairs and they were they're old enough They were doing dinner but my son has type ones that we were talking about how much insulin to give and all this other stuff And that it's just crazy So I think that, you know, ultimately in a few years I would like to do more with podcasting whether it's with, you know Other ways to make money as you said speaking or the book or the but I love this I mean, I just love I always love radio, which is why I did it for so long and I love this So I would like to do more but I just have to be very careful with my time And I think Daniel, as you said you kind of have to know you have to put in that work You know, I edited my own show for a little while Then I found a fabulous local college student to help me and now I pay a professional to do it And you have to figure out how much time you have and how much you can invest in It really is so much more than, you know, click it on the microphone and the dollars start coming out of the computer You know, it's it's obviously like that I think that unless you're doing this as a business and you are realistically investing in this to make this a business I think that you have to profit from your podcast in some way other than money First and make sure that your audience profits from it as well through opportunities through relationships maybe even simply having fun And that's what you get from it So then if you get A few extra dollars to cover your movie ticket to be able to bring a review to the podcast or you get A few dollars to be able to buy that next video game to discuss in your podcast or something like that Or simply to pay the pay the five dollars a month for your hosting or something, right? That was my original goal Let me cover the cost of just the hosting and the microphone and let's see where we can go from there right and as you know, we talk about time and shifting it away from a family and You know money that it costs to do it. There may be some even others like you got this hobby You go off in this room you're talking on the microphone like it'd be nice if they always paid for itself, right? So you can say hey, this isn't costing us anything except my time a little bit But it's your hobby at that point. It is your hobby like, you know, so that's it's an important investment in yourself It helps people because you're all helping people. It's not just me with the health stuff I mean I get emails. So I know the help that I'm providing But if you're having fun as you said or you're Interesting inspiring people on your topic. It's I listen to podcasts because they help me right Yeah, same here and I do think, you know, you mentioned something interesting. Um You have you have to find joy in it At some level to keep doing it and um, and you're right. I mean I have had People look at me and say like, well, why do you keep doing it if it's not hanging any money? Um, I actually put my freelance And this was a little crazy not gonna lie to you guys But I put my freelance work on pause for six weeks to drive across the country and interview people in person Um, and I drove from california to vermont All across the north and then down the south track and back to california So across the country like 8600 miles, um by myself for six weeks and um I hate networking events. I don't like going to them There are very few that I will go to because they just I just don't do it for me But this way of interacting with people who I've really admired over the years In various industries, whether it's blogging or art or music or design or whatever And to just sit down and have a conversation with them in person or even over skype it because that's all I can afford to do right now Has been so Rewarding I can't even I can't even quantify it in any way, you know, and it's been such a huge benefit to me Um, I hope it was a benefit to that the people have interviewed, you know But um and to my audience as well, but it's been a huge benefit for me in terms of um, just kind of creating those Relationships, it's just one one other way of creating relationships, which is what Honestly, that's how businesses thrive. So you you had that sponsored though and at some level it was sponsored, right? Yes It did not Do you think that you could have gotten more? Um, if you're now knowing what it was and what value it provided Should you erupt your car? um, I actually did I have contacts at a car company and I I I approached them to see if they would actually lend me a car for the trip They they told me they could lend me a car for halfway and I thought well, what the hell am I going to do the rest of the way? Yeah, I was like, I'm I'm no I don't have enough instagram followers for that. I don't think um, so anyway But I tried I tried um, and you know the the sponsor they were my first Yeah, they were my first sponsor and they were the ones who reached out to me They reached out to me about 10 days before I left for my trip So they didn't know that I was going on my trip. I pitched the trip to them saying, um, you know These numbered episodes are going to be part of the the road trip experience And and my listenership loved that I actually did this thing this What was a big thing? I mean, it was kind of kind crazy. Um, so, uh, so there was you know It was benefits for all everyone all around I think um, do I think I could have gotten more honestly not Not with my listenership back then because that was two two years ago now. Um, I think I actually kind of hit it right So, I mean More I mean, no Jennifer you've had sponsorships that you've done that the sponsor didn't see here We're back with sponsors, but they didn't really see the value. They didn't get it in whatever they were measuring from So I think one of the valuable things here is to know that some of us have tried some things They haven't worked out totally Um, but what was the when you did a sponsorship that didn't work out from the sponsors perspective What was the what was the what didn't work for them? Basically, um Like I was I was kind of talking about earlier where um, you know The person I was working with was their content person their marketing person the person who understands brand storytelling Right and the value in that But they still answer to the people who pay the bills and who they care and a lot of them were kind of like web startup You know silicon valley type stuff. So, um, they're constantly looking at metrics and roi return on investment so they wanted to see um sign ups for whatever it was or um Purchases or you know, whatever that that metric was how does that affect your The way you deal with sponsorships or ads going forward if you know that I know what my audience is going to sort of convert to or right so I just I'm just laying it on thick with the with the brand storytelling aspect because that is truly what I have to offer Right. So you're selling them the value of podcast the most of the time like yeah I mean honestly, um, and and that's part of the reason I opened the door to more than just a You know 90 second ad spot or whatever the You know, whatever the time timing needs to be um Because I wanted to see what what I could do with um the sponsored content to see if perhaps that would Push push the envelope just a little bit in in that direction. Um, and you know, the jury's still out like I'm still trying stuff so Um, and I'm four years in right I just want I want people to understand that it's not always going to work right out of the gate either So, yeah, so that's perfect. I mean as we wrap up I mean if we have anything that's You know If we have a piece of advice that we could give someone who has starred a podcast they've reached a community Maybe that's 200. Maybe that's 800. Whatever, you know, so fewer than a couple thousand They want to make that first step. They say, okay, I've been doing this for a little while. It'd be nice to cover those costs What would be your first step from that perspective of trying to bring in a little something? And then as we go out you can add that and then let us know where we can find your podcast I'm gonna head out. I'll put Daniel since he's the co-host. He has to be in the hot seat first, but Daniel What are you going to tell that first time? Uh podcasters trying to sort of jump into making a little bit from their podcast Find something that gives value to your audience enough value that they're willing to pay for Whether that be your podcast itself A relationship a service you offer or something you recommend Find that value that's worth it to your audience Yeah, I think one of the tricky things that some people say I don't know. I don't have a product I'm not a I don't give coaching and you know, I don't do coaching Um, you know, I can't get a brand sponsorship. So what are you? What are you thinking? Find something that your audience would want And let's make it ahead of time Simply your podcast and don't start from so you're thinking like a crowdfunding maybe yeah It could be simply a dollar per month and when you do something like that Make those people who give even a dollar per month or maybe it's $10 a month or something like that Make them feel like superheroes. You could call them, you know our heroes or our knights or whatever Our whatever you want to call them You could sing a little song for them or something like that make them want to Give value back to you because you're giving value to them And by the way, I'm Daniel J. Lewis from the audacity to podcast.com Perfect. Well, you're next up in the little square box is jennifer. So thank you so much for being on your first round table And I say first because we hope everyone will come back. But uh, thanks again. Do you have any advice? Yeah, I mean, I definitely have to kind of Second that that you find something that has value for everybody. Um, but if And this is coming for I'm I used to be in marketing. So, um, so I think that The first step would actually be to know your numbers. I mean and kind of if you're if you're talking about approaching um a sponsor Kind of know what you're working with know your baseline and know where your lines are, right? So if If your line the line you don't want to cross is I don't want a A sponsor that doesn't have anything to do with my audience. That's a great line You know, don't cross it And if your line is a hundred dollars that to make it worth it to you, you know, don't cross that line And if if somebody pushes back, you know, I'd say hold strong But I think finding finding where What would make it worth it to you and worth it to your listeners? And then also understanding with what you're working with so that you could actually communicate that to a brand And then think outside of I hate saying think outside the box, but definitely think outside of the sponsorship box think of other ways to To monetize and hopefully we gave some Good examples of that. So and I again, I'm Jennifer Snyder creating your own path podcast creating your own path.com. So Perfect. Yeah, I love that and I again, you know For someone who doesn't who hasn't had a sponsorship or an ad or hasn't been approached and then suddenly is I mean I think it is important to know What it's worked to you. I mean, you know, your your podcast is valuable. Your audience is valuable Um, you know, don't get too excited because you you know, I've been approached by a lot of bad products and bad brands and in the beginning The first time it's really exciting. You think I have to do this because I won't get another one no one else will come knocking but Know what you have and and know what it's worked to you and and I like that don't cross that line That's perfect. So thanks again Jennifer Stacey. Thanks so much for joining us Oh, I was so excited to be here and Thrilling, thank you so much. I listened to you guys all the time. So this is really cool I would um Let's take what has been said before me and then I'll add to it I think what is very difficult for many people In podcasting is that now you have to if you're going to do this You have to think like a sales person Which to a lot of people immediately is a turnoff but all I mean is Have a plan. I don't mean get this, you know, the shark skin suit and we're going to sell cars I mean We can have that discussion another time, you know But have an honest discussion with yourself and make a plan write this down It all has to come from who your audience is and you have to know your audience The audience that you want the audience that you have know who they are If you don't you have to ask them whether it's on facebook or a survey you have to know your audience That's what's going to ask you that's I was going to divert because I say how do each Have you guys know your audience because the podcast it goes one way You don't know who's listening necessarily I'm I'm very fortunate in that my audience is very specific And I created my show in part because while there are a few Diabetes podcasts out there. In fact, I organized everybody in february for diabetes podcast week Which will be coming up in february again this year for the third time But amazing. Yeah, but I didn't hear one that spoke to me So that's why I created mine and they're all great There's an element of we know we think we know who our niche is but I know I produce podcasts where people Who are nowhere near the niche still listen and they get value for some other reasons So well, then you do have to ask and if you have those numbers if you can say look I did a poll and 10 of my people don't have type 1 diabetes But they have Hashimoto's or they have celiac And they just think this is a community that they can learn from and want to be part of So that's really great information, but you don't know until you ask and you quantify So a media kit If you're listening and you haven't done any of this yet give yourself an assignment by this day in a month I'm going to have a paragraph on who my audience is I'm going to have a paragraph on who am I What makes my show different because you know daniel you are you have a great show There are other podcasting shows out there. What makes yours different It's you and the value you bring and you know the fun way we hear you and and how we get to know you So write this stuff down Make a plan make a kit of some sort. It doesn't have you know The super professional slick stuff that comes it's the hard part for me was Quantifying it writing it down Then I can go into something pretty like canva or I don't know whatever I put all my stuff in google drive I don't think it looks that great. I'm not a Pinterest person. I'm not very visual as you can tell by my mess here in my lighting But once I wrote all that down it became much easier to present to sponsors and say I have a small audience But I know who I am and where I'm going here are my goals. Here's what I do and here are my people And it really does help, but if you don't quantify it and write it down, you won't even know yourself So if you write, you know, if you can do that in the next month, that's I would highly recommend that Perfect and then where can we find your show? Oh, sorry diabetes dash connections dot com and you know facebook diabetes connections all over the place It's pretty not too many diabetes podcasts if you search for type one, but we're out there Very cool. Well, hey, I think we had an awesome discussion and like I said, even if you're not looking to make Money, I mean it doesn't even if like a few dollars pay those Hosting fees, but even if you're not interested in that, I think there was plenty of here just connecting with your audience Knowing your audience is how to serve them better Bring more value. I think all that's good. Dave would be happy with our value of propositions. I think so What's up, Dave? You better be listening this far All right, so we'll see you next time What? Sorry, no not at all the round table is all about interruption. It's a round table I'm supposed to do that. We're just unfortunately. We're not physically in person where you just bump someone and say shut up I want to talk maybe we will do a couple live sometimes in person, but Yeah podcast movement will be there Daniel Dave and myself So if you're going to that definitely come see us that would be amazing But podcast is round table dot com slash guest sign up so you can be a future Round table and we'll have a great discussion next one's 97. So that's it. We wave. Goodbye. We're out of here I will find the stop button someday