 Welcome, everybody, to tonight's event Regard Croisé et Moudam on the exhibition of Lionel Antunes, which is currently in the pavilion of Moudam. We are very glad to share tonight our conversation with you, actually on six terms, about an hexagonal pavilion with Antunes sculptures. You might see if you are online or if you are in the audience room, two screens with the exhibition room, or you might attend being in the exhibition. So you will see the exhibition in real time, but only listening to both of us, which will be fine. Anyhow, Milica Topalovic joined our session from Zurich, where she currently works and lives with her family. Milica is researcher and teacher in architecture and territorial planning at ETH since about 15 years, currently associate professor at the ETH Zurich, after having spent for about four years between 11 and 15 in Singapore in the future city laboratory. Welcome. Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you for being here too. So today, Dora, she's dancing, performing as a response to our conversation by her movements in the pavilion. Thank you, Dora. Myself, I'm Carol Schmidt. I'm an architect living and working in Luxembourg. For 15 years, I have been leading an architecture office called Polaris, together with my partner François. Currently, I am teaching at the university in Luxembourg in the master in architecture, next to my project leading job at the administration of public works. So our conversation should last for about one hour. And it will be packed into six sections, six terms. We will spend approximately 10 minutes on each term. Okay, now we start with the first term, which is about generation. So I just make a brief introduction. Milica and myself, actually we met at the end of the 90s in Amsterdam at the research lab, which was called Belak Institute, where we studied together for about two years, I was belonging to generation nine. And Milica, she was actually belonging to generation 10. In the meantime, they have been 30 generations being graduated. And so we are very happy actually to share today the idea that we belong to the same generation, actually the same as Leonor Antunes, which is also born or at least was a child during the 70s as we were. So maybe Milica, you can tell us a little bit how it was growing up in Belgrade in the 70s. Yes, thank you, Carol. So it was interesting to discover as we met actually, and I think used the opportunity to encounter each other once again and let's say revisit our friendship after many years. And one of the first things we understood was that Leonor basically is the same generation. And I think we began to wonder, is there something that creates a kind of a shared experience among us, let's say. What separates a generation of the 70s and does this experience of growing up in the 70s bring us together or create a kind of similar worldview or a value system that we share to this day. And so we decided to speak a little bit about the 70s and the preparation I started to think back to that time. Well, I can tell you that I grew up in Belgrade in a socialist country called Yugoslavia at the time in a street that was actually called Boulevard of Yuri Gagarin. This betrays a kind of a proximity to the Soviet bloc. So we are also children of a Cold War. I mean, if we are looking at the kind of shared memories and experiences. I remember, of course, modern architecture. This is one of the resonances to the work of Leonor and Tunis. I mean, modern architecture, modern space, which kind of created the framework of the daily lives at the time. New apartment, new appliances, new uncomfortable furniture, new modern school, new children playground, et cetera, new landscape, new trees and so on. I remember technology, good TV, radio that, let's say, dominated our life. I mean, in comparison to Dora, who is tonight with us. No fixed phones, no internet, no computers in the daily life. So let's say we have, we have those memories, right? We have the memories of different kind of communication. I think we were also raised with environmental teams. I think the acid rain, the depletion wasn't there back then. So let's say those are the teams that resonate still, I think, in a different way. Perhaps I would say we were raised with or I remember distinctly economic crisis. I remember power blackouts. I remember rationing. I remember driving on odd and even numbers according to license plate numbers. I remember, let's say, I mean, we would say today probably rising tachrism as a kind of a broad political phenomenon that originates in the late in the times of economic crisis. I remember punk movement very distinctly in that, you know, in that to say so modern space. And I remember having more time, everybody having more time, you know, more time to waste to do nothing and so on. So how was it growing up in Luxembourg? Well, I believe that even though I was in in a non socialist country growing actually up in a very conservative landscape, which was strongly run by still Catholic socialist parties. I had a very similar feel about that time. Actually, my, my city was a small city was not the capital and but it belonged to the industrial part of our country where there was steel being produced. And the landscape I saw from my balcony because I lived in an apartment was actually great because the fine dust would, you know, be constantly reproduced. And so I was growing up in pollution in heavy pollution. Of course, I remember very well also the the upraise of the punk culture. You know, but I, when I was small, I didn't really set it back into a historical moment. I just saw these guys, these youngsters, you know, having these funny hair. And, and, you know, these new type of music popping up in the heat and other ways of dressing and it was this new future, you know, generation actually that that we were belonging to. In my particular case, I didn't, I wasn't introduced into a very bourgeois milieu. I grew up actually basically in environment where there were many workers kids, next to kids from engineers, basically. So he was, in a way, colorful and homogeneous at the same time. But it really had a great impact on my perception of cities, because I, I still have a lot of sympathy towards these industrial environments and landscapes they do not represent these classic beauty of historical city centers or something like that but they had these, you know, roughness but also potential, right, which was already there so that that was actually basically the landscape I, I grew up, you know, the same time. It's interesting perhaps to remember our generation at the Berlach, right, so we, we were together in the, in the master studies and I think we, we shaped again a kind of a generational approach to architecture isn't isn't that right. I believe so yes I very much remember that in the 90s. There was these, you know, huge happiness of getting borders open right well this was basically the part in in Western part of Europe, maybe less. But since you were in Amsterdam, I believe you could enjoy this too. And yes, yes. So that that actually raise a lot of hope in our minds. I remember these these border issue became something really, really important on one hand and then the other thing which is I think very strongly related to our generation was about the transdisciplinary the rays of new media and talk not technologies which would, you know, completely reshape our way of designing and thinking architecture basically and so we had a lot of discussions on how to use them you know the ones that were really enthusiastic and the other ones were maybe less enthusiastic you know I remember that was that was that was real that was a real debate right it was like kind of how to approach technology and I think there were kind of kind of let's say tech architects among us you know those that embrace complexity and and you know the kind of aesthetics of this kind of technological design parametric design and those that you know that that kind of held back from all that. Absolutely. Yeah, which we, I remember Pia Vittoria writing and presenting his manifesto against Photoshop. And you know, this was really great, great moment because Photoshop wasn't such a solitary tool you're all so happy at the kind of. Yeah, well, maybe we should talk about matter now. Exactly. The second, the second term is matter. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so, you know, it came immediately right so so learners work is about matter about material. It's also about details right so it's in a way it's very architectural it's it's refined in its construction in it's in its making. Absolutely. I mean, it's such a strong feeling when when you enter her installations full of sculptures, full of perfection actually and which embrace you you know in such a calm and serene. It's extremely actually serene in its appearance and I believe that what's what she what she tried to achieve is to show the beauty and the simplicity of all these materials by using craft. So, I just, if you agree, I just would like to read a very small abstract extract of a book, which has been written by Queen Latima, where she made a collection of essays and poems and days one about about Leonor and it's beautiful I can't read it completely but I just offer a very very small insight. It says, in the Kunsthalle Basel exhibition poster for Tunis exhibition, the CP attention image shows a courtyard enclosed by walls and trees and leaves and light. A kind of pavilion. A woman waits, waits there like a traveler might wait for a train. She as a traveler, though. She is also an artist. I do not remember seeing a poster for Tunis exhibition sculptures for traveling at the Kunstverein Haberger Bahnhof in Hamburg. Let's imagine one together. A glass pavilion, a flood of travelers, a sign that reads club. Inside the narrow glass walls, an artist unpacking her suitcase laying out her materials on the floor. Leather, light, brass, wood, rope, silence, distance. She begins to assemble them at last. So this text actually is extracted out of this book and is called the artist in Tunis or last words on the last days of sculptures for traveling. Actually the author visited her pavilion and being there she she got inspired and she found room and space for her own poetry. I have, I am familiar with the text as well and I was really struck with this comparison of artists with the traveler. And I had actually been thinking whether traveling is a metaphor for any kind of artist or traveler is a metaphor for any kind of artist or perhaps specifically to a woman artist. And I was wondering to what extent, you know, I mean traveling certainly is a kind of a, to say so, demand of contemporary art. But I think in the case of Leonor, I am rather fascinated by the kind of transience and the kind of lightness of the gesture, right? And of the, let's say details and the procedures which I relate to the kind of a feminine or perhaps feminist design experiences. It definitely, yes, certainly is. Maybe there's another thing which strikes me a lot is about the fact that she uses pure material in a way, you know, this kind of honesty and authenticity of the material which are reworked, you know, and reworked in a very sophisticated and yet simple way. And almost as opposed to this Western trend in culture to mix and blend materials again and again in order to develop the most sophisticated technologies until they finally become unrecognizable. So, you know, I believe that, you know, these these materials, when they become so sophisticated and that one cannot see really what it is anymore, the chance of getting it back in the news circle of a fuse is very limited. Even though physically speaking, it's always possible, right? So, and I think she has really a stand with it, you know, this is sort of a very maybe female resistance against this trend, you know, of an anti-ecological way of using materials. Kind of composite, composite against composite materials, let's say, yeah. Yeah, sure. I think this is something at least which which comes out. But nevertheless, the poetry is maybe, you know, is even stronger, you know, is even. And I believe that that maybe leads us to the next to the next term because I think we can make a transition to to chance. Being in Antonis exhibition, I feel relieved, I feel space for interpretation and freedom, actually, freedom of movement, freedom of thought. And this is maybe something which makes me think about the term of chance, you know, because it's it's it's charged as an opportunity but it's also charged as something which you cannot control and which is which possibly can happen. So, I just want to refer maybe to to this physician, you know, as a small provocation Jean Cavalliers. He was a physician who died actually during the Second World War as a resistant, but just before dying. He published a last publication and where he was actually stating that there is no mathematical definition of chance. So for him, there is a scientific certitude of being able to cover all and everything into rules of knowledge. You know, he says, actually, I can, I can offer this quote. It's in French. There is no mathematical definition of chance. The last meaning of chance is ignorance. To say that a sequel is given to chance is affirmed that we will not be able to find mathematical laws for the succession of these terms. And this is typically, you know, a standard Western culture. I believe where there is very strong faith into solving all and everything by rules, by by equations, maybe. And where the knowledge, of course, belongs to the strong and gives a lot of power as well. Whereas, maybe in other cultures, one would find the potential of the hazard of the chance, you know, chance of the unexpected, you know, and maybe I just stop and just refer them maybe to to Stéphane Malarmé, who wrote in 1897, N'abolira le hasard. And where he said, and this is French again, I'm sorry for this, but he says, actually, it's also about numbers and chance. C'était le nombre issu stelaire? Existe-à-t-il autrement qu'allucination éparse d'agonie? Commence-à-t-il et c'est-à-t-il sourdant que nier et clos quant'apparu en fin? Par quelques profusions répandues en rareté, se chiffre-à-t-il? Evidence de la somme pour peu qu'une illuminat-il se serait pire? Non, davantage, ni moins, indifféremment, mais autant le hasard. So, what about chance, you know, what do you think? I mean, it's fascinating, let's say, as designers and architects, right? So I think we are familiar with that creative process that very often involves chance, right? But in ways that are not apparent in the finished product. And I think this is interesting when looking at Leonor's work that, you know, to both of us, the term chance came across very strongly because we wondered about the process and to what extent the kind of, let's say, control or what is the logic? What are, to say, the rules behind it, right? And I also, I mean these kind of creative rules, right? And to explain that I have this example that I liked very much. I remember in the student days. So there was this book published, I think, also in the late 70s by Brian Inno and Peter Schmidt. So it was a kind of artistic collaboration that was discovered accidentally where they developed independently from each other cards to help them, in a way, orchestrate or bring in chance or a kind of possibility to decide in the creative process when things get difficult, let's say. And the cards are fascinating because I think perhaps every designer, to say so, every artist in a broad sense. I mean also architects and musicians and so on work with those, to say so, individually developed rules and some of the cards are very entertaining and I think we recognize them like discard and axiom, no? I remember that. The three of the main idea, right? Repetition as a form of change, right? Race repetition or distorting time, no? Very interesting, also architecturally what might happen or destroy nothing. This is a fascinating one. Nobody will tell you that in architecture school, right? Or destroy the most important thing on the other hand. You hear your teacher so often, don't be sentimental, right? Change your project, right? And so on. Or be dirty and so on. Like pollute the canon and so on. And I think this certain elegance about Leonor's work is there, which it is not easy to say so to read in terms of a creative process, right? So we were to say so both wandering on the element of chance. And I think, I mean, I think of course the kind of chance. I mean, that also extends back to the question of matter and to the kind of a male and female to say so strategies in terms of handling for right and handling material. There are, you know, I mean, there's a sense of fascinating histories and examples. I mean, your, your favorite is, is John Cage. You tried to. No, no. Yes, I, of course, John Cage. You know, of course, there is this, you know, his chance, you know, control chance operation mechanisms is something which fascinates me for, for many, many years. And of course, I'm not the only one, you know, there was this beautiful exhibition recently at Woodum about Maurice's work would be also actually who was actually actively engaged with Cage about about these mechanisms. So, no, no, of course, I think that there is another dimension which I think due to time I would like to, to maybe to switch over if he could go and I think you want to say something about nature, which is also very present in Leonor's work, maybe. Well, yeah, I mean, why, okay, let's let me let me try to to explain why why was nature important. Well, I think nature, let's say, as I mean, we've, we've encountered Eleanor restoration and one of the terms was nature and obviously I think there's a kind of certain dedication to nature through material right so let's look at it through the choice of material and also through through the craft or through the through the handcraft. There is a, I think modernism is is let's say present as a kind of aesthetic sensibility but I think also the kind of nostalgia which is, you know, exists nostalgia for the kind of pre-modern craft traditions which are absorbed, you know, in modern architecture, modern art, you know, over over through various to say so artistic trajectories and I, I think that, that the, I mean, I would, I would perhaps refer to in opening this, this kind of wide and I think perhaps a difficult team of nature. I think what is perhaps interesting to say that you know we live, I think in a time when we are perhaps in the moment when we have to reconsider or where we are in the process of reconsidering the kind of wide cultural perspective of on nature, you know, and I think if we talk about Anthropocene, I think we talk about basically about exhaustion of of worldviews and the worldviews imply the kind of relationship of the human society towards the world ecology or or nature, right? And the kind of unpacking the history of nature is is a difficult and I think fascinating exercise and I think this is also where Leonor's work resonates, right? Because this kind of clear and committed let's say handling of materials and perhaps touching this point where, you know, the modern or the progressive can can be in contact with, you know, the natural or perhaps let's call it sustainable, you know, this is this is a kind of a very, very I think sensitive point for, you know, for, I would say, you know, for not only architects but for, you know, civilization in general. I mean, can we can we design architecture, which is, you know, emission free, which is not about, you know, reinforced concrete or or other to say so, you know, technologies, composite materials, as you said, etc, etc. And there is this, I mean, there are, I think I mentioned, I wanted to open up this topic of the history of nature and one one book in particular was interesting. Caroline Merchant, a philosopher and also feminist writer in the 1980s came up with the book that of the debt of nature, women ecology and the scientific revolution and what is so she precisely tries to do this kind of a sweeping history where where her thesis is that actually the shifting view of nature is a is a historic process and she traces it back approximately 300 years and she says there is a 300 year old roughly in from seeing the earth as a living organism towards seeing it as a machine that was consequently used to justify industrial capitalism and domination of, you know, of both nature and women in her perspective so she says exploration of images and metaphors directly linking nature and women she in this in this book she in fact debates these changing attitudes towards science and technology and the history I think what is fascinating is that history begins with the discovery of the new world, the late 15th century and you know goes through incredible number of examples from Newton to Leibniz through which in her point of view this mechanistic world view was installed and a couple of, I think, you know a couple of, I mean where it where it leads to bringing us today to the present day I think we are still I would say completely entrenched in that discussion I mean if we look for instance on the work of Bruno Latour in facing Gaia we have you know practically the same kind of question mark presented in the book so basically is it possible to let's say reconfigure our cultural paradigms around nature in order to let's say gradually begin modifying other fields of activity you know from politics to economy etc etc and the notion of course which is also implicated is Gaia and there is a link to James Lovelock so let's say is it possible to I think to say it in a provocative terms but these are also Latourian terms is it possible to remember or under our conditions to reinstall a kind of a new natural religion that would let's say inform the kind of shift that we are looking for in the face of let's say global environmental crisis. It's a big question I think it leads us to the idea of progress right that's what we need. We need to address progress now because I believe it's a matter of civilization maybe where we can find some you know you know hints hints also in the history where Western civilization became a kind of one religion for the whole planet in a way you know but it's almost arrogance to pretend being able to conduct society through scientific knowledge certain governance you know the economy which goes with it and of course the I would say the centralization of capital among a few you know which has been now delivering for several centuries whereas when we look you know if you really look to the way how things are built maybe we can learn something. I just you know maybe I can just give you the example of a Shinto shrine you know in Japan which is something which is repeatedly it's a shrine which is repeatedly turned down and rebuilt actually every 20 years and this over the past 1,300 years. So what happens is that the Shinto believe is based on the fact that they believe into the death and the renewal of nature and the impermanence of all the things. And as a way of passing. Building technologies actually from one generation to the other. And this is a whole process, which occurs every 20 years so which means that one single person in this community has most possibly the chance to to learn about rebuilding this shrine for two or three times. So, if we look at Japanese culture. We do discover this, you know, believe into into tradition and the knowledge which goes with it. We see it in the way how they handle craft how they handle certain building materials. But we also see that they have no trouble of going with the new technologies as well. So there is not this dialectical view on either or right. So they have this capacity to embrace the whole history in a way. And stay connected with nature so they don't oppose nature something which is you have the, you have the humankind and you have the nature no actually humankind belongs to nature is nature. I don't know. I, yeah, I love, I love the, I love the example of Shinto shrine and it. It actually reminded me off of john burger and I think most of many, I think probably everybody in the audience will will know john burger for for one or another of his books or the ways of seeing burger actually there is a there is a biographical moment which was deeply fascinating to me so somewhere in the mid 70s so again we're back in the 70s he actually left London where he was born and he moved to French Savoy close to Geneva to a very small village Hamlet about 50 kilometers uphill from Geneva. In his testament in his writing. The motive was to document the disappearance of subsistence farming. So the, the experience of historical experience, let's say of, of peasantry that he believed was drawing to a historical close and he was to bear witness to this vanishing existence and, and there, there are there is a very, very rich writing by him on this period there are there are also films documenting him in this environment. I think the seasons in Quincy. Highly recommended featuring also till the Swinton and so one of the one of the arguments that burger makes in the in this opus is that I think similarly to shine and see we should be looking closely and kind of salvaging these traditions because it's precisely according to him among other things about the notion of progress so he says that with this commitment to to living on the earth peasant has a different world view then urban classes and notably the proletariat so all urban classes also kind of including the bourgeoisie etc etc. So let's say the peasantry cultivates what he calls the culture of survival and that is opposed to the culture of progress. And he describes the difference through the understanding of time. Peasant has a cyclic view of time that is based on seasonality, nature's rhythms and so on that is opposed to the kind of linear time which is which has a kind of a upward trajectory towards some to say so future horizon however it is projected. And he says by contrast peasant is oriented to the past, not to the future, and he says his primary state of justice so this is a quote quite interesting formulation. Primary state of justice is the past before the onset of injustice where that class was was exploited in one way or another so when he and his family are free to work without oppression. And I think it's interesting also that he says that by contrast so the progressive and the progressives the progressive class how he defines them for them for the proletariat the ideal future is the future without work. No, so it's the state of leisure of consumerism of abundance and so on. And he says that this principle of progress oriented toward the future of plentitude without work and so on is the underlying ethos of all modernity so whether socialist or capitalist so ultimately the only difference he says between the socialism and capitalism is in the content of progress right so so how how is this state of plentitude achieved we are we are to say so engagement of artificial intelligence or you know other other forms of let's say redistribution. And so, so it's, it's a quite, quite let's say for me it was, it was a really striking figure and the kind of a striking effort by a person who was also to say so, somebody who who operated let's say in in the in the kind of urban culture and in the in the context of of high art. His entire life so, so I think that that. You know, if if we begin to talk about the kind of cyclic quality here right so I think obviously we are also talking about. You know, material cycles about, you know, closing energy loops about the kind of no waste culture. And, you know, all those experiences that we could save traditional countryside could handle without any problem whatsoever right and I think to to to recover those experiences. I mean we cannot essentially recover them because we live in urban societies that are at the vastly different scales and I think we are essentially, I believe faced with a new problem right. You know that that needs to be creatively addressed but but certainly let's say those those historical experiences are. You know are are are important than I I also like like a burger I mean in in in a lot of my work let's say countryside is present as as really as a source of. A source of, you know, I think of learning, you know, source of learning, yeah, although we we also understand now that globalization is a process which is not limited to cities so it is not so that that. You know, villages and agrarian landscapes are aren't touched I mean on the contrary right so and I think this is also one of the one of the points that that burger makes right so I think that is kind of a. Let's say. Silent transformation of. Life, I think anywhere through. Through this. Let's say industrial forms of economy is is is is is probably. I think a kind of a widespread European reality right so to kind of searching for the for the remaining spots of the rural I think is really. You know is a kind of a let's say, you know, could become a kind of a special special obsession. Yeah. Well this this brings us to the next and our last term which is domestic. So I was. I was actually wondering why we were discussing this term previously on how to relate the idea of domestic to home which which was maybe something that you were very much attached to as a concept right. So but, firstly, just to get back really to the term of domestic I really wanted to to address something which is important to me as well and and and goes back to the movement of arts and crafts right. Which actually emerged rather into emerged in the countryside, rather than in the cities basically led by by figures such as Maurice war actually not against the use of machines but they. The vision of flavor system designed which to to increase actually efficiency, you know, and to increase production. And which broke all the manufacturing tasks into small separate tasks in these linearity, which we call today lean, you know, the management which is the line where everything has to function in line. And she meant that the individuals had a very weak relationship to the result of what they were actually doing while they work about their labor. And this was basically in his eyes, the wrong direction. Maybe his, his, his way of thinking is still very, very contemporary, you know. More and more, even in intellectual services, which are done by by people that are academics basically so not only you know the ones that cannot go to universities but even the ones that do. They are taught actually at universities suddenly belong to to a line of work where their work is just a little piece of a much bigger one and they can be replaced at any time. So, and this is something which also socially speaking and not only environmentally speaking is huge problem because it the response, it the. The responsibilities, I don't know how you say that the responsibility, you know, the individual. Whether in arts and crafts, you know, you had this, you know, idea of a total interior of a design we should address all different disciplines so you had this cross disciplinarity already very much present where they would be able to to revolutionize domestics, domestic spaces and and give room for the first time also to women actually to to to be part of this design process so not only consuming in some way but also designing it for their own purposes. And, and this is maybe something which is a movement, it's, it's belonging to modernity in some way, but maybe different type of modernity is sort of organic modernity I don't know how I would call it, which would also belong to to artists such as Elin Gray or you know other other figures and designers that certainly never gave up actually trying to to join boy both the idea of abstraction in design and the crafts. These were not meant to be a post never. Of course, and so, so I, I, I think, since we are speaking about the domestic life and and, and we are also, you know, we are we are also architects, of course, and, and I think these, these questions are somehow, you know, following the looming, you know, let's say both through through our, our work on biographies. So, I think it's, it's interesting perhaps to, to, to bring it this for the moment to the personal sphere because architects are and certainly let's say those of our generation I mean, I think that there is a kind of a among all of our friends, let's say, very lucky friends of those that I am in contact with. I mean, those people have have, in a way, try to design and build their own home right and very much along those ideas of kind of believing in and also in a way loving that kind of creativity and ability to to shape one's own space now and I think that that I mean certainly, you know, we live in in cities that are expensive. We live in Zurich, and I think that the kind of reality of of real estate and I mean this is again where where where learners work, I think hits a kind of interesting point right so I think that the the I would say the the the realities of real estate market are in fact, I would say, pushing the way that the kind of either, you know, the possibility now of home ownership I think for many people and then ultimately the freedom of changing I mean this is not not only the real estate but also the let's see the the the various regulations around the home building which I think in the in the Western Europe are rather stifling you know so so let's say this kind of I think a playful need of of shaping and buildings one one on one's own home is is is more and more, you know, out of reach I think for for most urban days that I know right and I think we as as architects we are a kind of a village kind of a small party of those who are who are trying to go against that specific reality right so so so so I think you know if I mean perhaps you you would like to say I know that you are also, you know, designed and built your own house have been are there are there specific are there some some interesting experiences I mean we are still in the process I can tell you Yeah. Well, I think it's, of course, it's a it's a great privilege. It's an incredible privilege if you can start to think about your home, whether you are an architect or not actually it's it's something actually that many people just don't have the opportunity to do so. But indeed, I mean, while doing so for once for ourselves for for our family. We had, you know, these very, you know, essential questions on on what would we expect from our house, you know, and since we designed our house quite late you know as you know as an architect because most of our friends I don't know but many of them you know, managed in some way to do it little earlier. We had, we had actually this opportunity to live already a lot, you know, many years in different things we had moved so many times you know we. So, our, our question basically what what what is our home what what will be this kind of point that we would like to create for our family. What would it need, who would it need to serve. And so and actually we realized over the design process that we were constantly changing and shifting rooms. So we realized that actually it's almost unforeseeable what what the needs are. We need we needed flexibility. And we also needed a space spaces which we would like to share also collectively so that was something which really came came up so instead of having very big private rooms at some point we thought maybe it's also nice to have rooms. Together, in order to cultivate this idea of exchange being together playing together. No listening or watching movies together so this is these are all concerns which which finally made up our quest for very simple design in the end so we made a very normal house. But of course trying to deal with these issues of of circularity and materials, you know, how to keep the things in the loop, you know, as long as possible. I mean, all that was really part of our process. I don't know. I would like to share it with you actually in real time. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think that that, you know, one one very, very obvious, you know, I mean, point about craft. I think that that learner also underlines in in many of her works in in working with the local craftsmen and so on and I think that this, at least I mean, you know, here in our our experiences I mean this this is also an almost utopian undertaking because I think it makes sense in the context of high art, but in the context even of architects building their own house it's almost possible. And I think this is, you know, even even though we would be very very committed to it but you know we've we've built a small, you know, small projects, for instance in in Belgrade and in Serbia where I come from and and now in Switzerland and perhaps also in the Netherlands and in each also believed for for a while in Singapore and I think in each of these countries we are aware in in very different ways how those craft knowledge or experiences to say so have have moved into kind of highly specialized areas and are completely out of reach or let's say everyday use right so let's say I think as as returning to say craft into the domestic sphere I'm afraid has become impossible right then I think that that you know this is this is a kind of a linking back to William Morris right so it's a kind of a it's a kind of a dream, you know, or to or to shine the shine right it's a kind of a dream that essentially we are unable to realize right either for the for the lack of knowledge, you know, which, which is effect or, or, you know, for the lack of money or, you know, for the kind of regulations working against against you or, or, you know, time is a problem you know what one one should have the luxury of time in order to be able and so on. And I think we have also discovered I mean, a team indeed a team of of recycling as a as a very important team that I wouldn't have have, you know, thought back then or, you know, it perhaps, of course, we spoke also in the bear market, you know, 20 years ago about recycling but I think we have discovered it really through the the kind of effort of doing something right and I think that that this kind of now pleasure of really salvaging something from from being thrown away has has become very important. Yes. This is this is also the kind of the kind of dialogue, you know, with learn, not sure if learn or is is is listening to us tonight but it has been a great pleasure and not to to to engage with each other and with her work. Yeah, yes, yes. Yes, thank you, Billy. I think we have to stop now on these beautiful words and we, yeah, we basically thank Leonor for her work, her contribution and all the instigations that followed and this opportunity that we had to reconnect through this talk and all the previous meetings. Which was actually also made possible by Caroline Hoffman of Muddam who had this idea actually to to to make this conversation possible as well. So I, I, I think that we have now to to stop the session. So I say goodbye to you to your family. Thank you so much. All my best greetings. Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure. And thank you, Dora. It was really lovely to share this time with you. Thank you. Bye.