 Or ask me I represent the proud public service workers at the Department of Public Works in City Hall Over the past few weeks. We've conducted a review of the city of Sheboygan's finances The general finding is actually good news despite the city's short-term challenges It's not necessary now to renege on the promises made to the employees regarding their compensation in 2011 or to lay off Employees in order to meet that this year's projected shortfall the city Still does have an ample reserve balance, which can be utilized to meet spending needs without compromising the city's financial position a Conservative benchmark for fund balance is 15% of annual expenditures 5.3 million in the city's case as of December 31st of 2009 the city had 8.5 million or 23 percent of annual Expenditures city use 600 of this fund balance in 2010 which brings it down to approximately 7.9 million but that's still more than 20 percent of annual expenditures This means the city's 2010 year-end fund balance remains 2.6 million dollars above a very comfortable level of fund balance Some of that 2.6 million can be used to prevent layoffs without needing to strip employees of negotiated wages or benefits These are the types of economic down times that reserve funds are meant to help with Indeed the fund balance has been used over the past three years to maintain taint services And in addition 1.6 million was drawn off in 2008 for an unplanned transfer the debt service to reduce funds More good news cities likely to come in under budget on expenditures for 2010 The city has a habit of overstating their projected expenses since 2007 Expenditures have come under final budgeted levels by about 2% each year if you take the 34 million dollars The city's planning on spending this year. It's probably 680 thousand more money that they're going to have than that a Review of year-to-date spending as of October 15th of this year indicated that they'd only spent about 61% of the budgeted levels you'd expect them to be about 80 percent at that time So it's very likely there's going to be money left over and some of that money can be used to fund your shortfalls for 2011 also note the city has understated its revenues in the past last year for example The approved budget was an increase of 10 percent over the proposed executive budget So you're likely to have more revenues also 30 seconds in thank you very much We strongly disagree with alderman books and others comments in the media that city employees are overcompensated We see this myth pop up from time to time. It's totally false I've brought for your review today not only our budget review But three recent studies that compare public employees to workers in the private sector with equal levels of education and experience The real data shows that public employees if anything are undercompensated for their work Compared to similar workers in the private private sector. There's the three studies So you have three potential ways to keep your staff working very brief You can tap your substantial reserves times. I'm just like any other speaker. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Sam Thanks for your time Thank you, Sam. That is all we have on the list. Is there anybody else that would like to speak Regarding the budget hearing Mr. Caputela Okay, yep. All right 1619 North 38th Street 1619 North 38th Street That's town of Sheboygan, but I'm here speaking on behalf of home Inc And you will have three minutes this time Henry Okay, I definitely wouldn't want to be in your seats tonight. That's for sure What I want to tell you is first of all equity and fairness in the budget process I've read in the paper and I know that there's negotiations with the fire department and the vote that happened And everything I just don't want them to think that they have a blank check with the city now because There's a lot of other departments that I've noticed that they were cut quite a bit you heard right here the libraries being cut and I'm here primarily to speak on behalf of the police department because For the last year, they've been on a hiring freeze where they haven't been able to hire anybody We've got people that are going to be laid off or are going to be moving for example officer pre-be and there's talk that They're not going to refill that position You know what you get to the point where you make so many cuts that it's going to be detrimental to the community and If you're looking at public safety, I would ask you to look at other areas Revenue, I know I've spoken at previous council meetings and I'll be back at the public forum This next year to probably give you some ideas But seriously, we're just making headway I know I've met with the chief and also some of the off of the officers mayor. You were at that gateway neighborhood meetings I'm on their board of directors. We're starting to make headway and that's like taking Two steps forward and taking five steps back if you're looking at making Additional cuts or even not even letting them to hire the police officers that they have The reason I'm saying this, I don't know if you're aware of it But since January of this year the police department has had 79,000 calls 79,000 now the population of the city Sheboygan is over what fifty thousand fifty nine thousand six We're talking that if you if you look at every individual They have called 1.25 percent Every person in this city would have made a call to the police department Now when you have those kinds of issues when you're looking at that kind of demand Henry 30 seconds. It's You have to have some equity and fairness in where you cut and like I've heard some of the other taxpayers say You know what? I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more if it was going to hire more police officers if it was going to make sure that the the city was going to be safer and We could walk out streets without having to worry about what's going to happen. Thank you very much. Thank you, Henry Thank You Henry. Is there anybody else that would like to be heard at this public hearing regarding the budget? Okay, I think everybody for speaking this evening All fairness to people that we're not Able to make it here this evening. I would like To adjourn this public hearing until the 22nd So that if anybody would like to speak Before our meeting on the 22nd they would be welcome to So I'd like a motion to adjourn the public hearing to the 22nd so move We have a motion in a second to adjourn the public hearing to the 22nd under discussion is there any If there is not all in favor of adjourning till the 22nd state say aye. Aye opposed We will again reopen the public hearing on the 22nd Thank you everybody for speaking. Thank you everybody for speaking and We will take a five minute recess before we begin the regular meeting Okay, folks if we can all grab our seats and continue on here Okay, I hope we all had a nice break moving on to the Consent agenda 16 1 through 16 19 President Kittleson. Thank you mayor I move that all our C's be accepted and adopted all our O's be accepted and placed on file and all Ordinances and resolutions be passed second. We have a motion and a second under discussion Alderman versey thank you, I'd like to pull 16 19 out for a separate vote Okay, we have a motion to pull 16 19 out for a separate vote a motion and a second to pull 16 19 Our C vice area grievances recommending renewing the agreement for you human resources and labor relations consulting services with HR limited LLC We have a motion and a second under that Any further discussion alderman raceler? I'm just looking to pull 16 18 Okay, we have a motion to pull 16 18 also out for a separate vote You have a second on that second motion the second to pull 16 18 Under discussion on 16 18 or 19 all in favor of pulling those for do we have to have a vote on that? No, we'll just pull those for a separate vote. So we're talking here on the consent agenda 16 1 through 16 17 under discussion on 16 1 through 16 17 going once Okay, if there is no discussion roll call, please on 16 1 through 17 I Bowers I Decker I Hammond I Hannah I Heidemann I Kittleson I Montemay or I Rindflash I racler I Samson I Vanderwheel I versi I and Wongamon I 15 eyes motion carries 16 18 an RC by public protection and safety recommending executing joint powers agreement for Sheboygan County and City of Sheboygan 9-11 emergency services under discussion If there is no discussion roll call, please We're doing Motion by Kittleson and Rindflash is that yes. Thank you Bowers, I'm sorry, which one are we voting on 16 18 it was pulled for a separate vote It's the joint powers agreement with the county Alderman racer pulled it for a separate vote because I believe he sent it over to the city from the county being Associated with the county I bought I Okay, thank you. Decker. Hi Hammond. Hi, Hannah. Hi Heidemann I Kittleson I Montemay or I Rindflash I Raceler Ipstein Samson I Vanderwheel I Versi I and Wongamon I 14 eyes one abstention Motion carries 16 19 an RC by salary and grievances recommending renewing the agreement for human resources and labor relations Consulting services with HR limited LLC for the period January 1 2011 through December 31 2011 this was pulled for a separate vote by by Alderman versey under discussion Alderman boran. I City clerk Richard, did you call on me for 60 16 18? I don't believe you did Did you like to vote aye I would like to vote aye Under discussion on 16 19 is there any discussion still motion by Kittleson Okay Roll call, please on 16 19 Decker I Hammond I Hannah I Heidemann I Koff I Kittleson I Montemay or I Rindflash I raceler I Samson. No Vanderwheel I Versi no Wongamon no Boran no and Bowers. No Ten eyes five nose motion carries Communications and petitions 1620 and 21 to be referred reports of officers to 1622 we will hold for 1646 reports of officers to 1623 and 24 lies over until the 22nd of November or next Monday 1625 and 26 Lies over to December the 6th 1627 through 1639 Will be referred all the person Montemay or thank you. Mr. Mayor. I'd like to make a motion on 1630 a move to file We have a motion and a second on 1630 by the city clerk submitting a communication from Marge matter Requesting that when someone speaks on public forum There should not be comments from the mayor or anyone in response to a citizen's comments under discussion We have a motion and a second to file under discussion If there is none, we'll call please Hammond no Hannah I Heidemann no Koth no Kittleson I Montemay or I win flesh no Raceler I Samson no Vanderweel No Versi no long a man. No Born no powers. No and Decker Five eyes ten nose motion fails will be referred to the committee of the whole Further discussion ultra person all the person Montemay or Thank you, mr. Mayor. I would like to move to file agenda item number 1631 1631 By the city clerk submitting a communication from Marge Segali regarding cell phone usage on the council floor during council meetings also Scheduled to go to the committee of the whole is there a second Second, we have a motion in a second to file 1631 under discussion All the person Montemay or thank you, mr. Mayor. I we've received these communications. We understand the complaints I don't know that we need to discuss them further at committee of the whole Okay, is there any further discussion? We have a motion in a second to file Roll call, please Hannah I Heidemann no Koth no Kittleson I Montemay or I Rinflaich no Graceler I Samson no Vanderwheel No Percy no Wongamon no Boran no Bowers no and Decker. No and Hammond. No Four eyes 11 nose Motion fails will be referred to the committee of the whole Resolutions, oh, we have another light all person Montemay or thank you again, mr. Mayor Agenda item number 1632. I think it has been handled a couple of times. I moved to file 1632 by the city clerk submitting communication from Maynard Sonam in Regenerating his complaint that was filed by the council on November 1st 2010 regarding the open records request to the finance department Second we have a motion and a second to file Under discussion if there is none we have a 1632 roll call, please Kittleson I Montemay or I Rinflaich I Raceler I Samson I Vanderwheel I Percy no Wongamon no Boran I Bowers no Decker. Hi Hammond hi, Hannah. Hi and Heidemann. Hi 12 eyes three nose Motion carries document is filed Moving on any more lights Okay, resolutions introduced three 1640 By Alderman Hammond authorizing the sale and issuance of up to five million dollars development revenue bonds series 2010 for RCS empowers incorporated project Alderman Hammond. Thank you, mr. Mayor. I move that the resolution be put upon its passage We have a motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion There is no discussion roll call, please Kittleson I Montemay or I Rinflaich I Raceler I Samson I Vanderwheel I Versi I Wongamon I Boran I Bowers I Decker I Hammond I Hannah I Heidemann I stand and Koth I 14 eyes one abstention Motion carries 1641 by Alderman Hammond directing the city attorney to seek a new opinion by the state attorney general To specifically clarify the portion of the statute indicated as to whether unspent funds for library services for a prior year Are to not be included as funding for the purposes of computing the three-year average Alderman Hammond Thank you, mr. Mayor. First off, I'd ask to can we suspend the rules? In doing the expediency of this we would like to get try to get a ruling by the state attorney general by the end of the year That will obviously make a big impact of whether we meet maintenance of effort or not We have a motion to suspend the rules in a second Second under discussion on the suspending the rules. Is there any discussion? Is there anyone opposed to suspending the rules? There is nobody opposed the rules are suspended Alderman Hammond, please. Thank you, mr. Mayor I move that the resolution be put upon its passage second We have a motion and a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion President Kittleson, thank you me. I want a little more explanation on this, please Clarify this for us Alderman Hammond absolutely Several years ago. There was a ruling from the attorney general at that time Pigalott and Schaliger about the how this rule reads and If you look at the strict How it's written in the statutes it basically says what it says unspent funding appropriated by a municipality or Or a county for library service for previous year are not included in The maintenance of effort calculation the attorney general's response at that time was if it's designated Restricted funds or excuse me Reserve funds then it would be included. We want to get a clarification of that from the state attorney general now Thank you Alderman Hammond's attorney McLean, thank you, and I just want to let the council know that the attorney general Although I'm sure they'd love to hear from me there They have no obligation to respond to a city attorney's request as opposed to if your county corporation council they They by statute provide legal advice to counties And obviously the state agencies, but they don't by statute provide legal advice to cities or city attorneys So I can if you direct me to I'll write a letter, but we may not get a response I wouldn't hold your breath that you're going to get it before the budget needs to be adopted either It's a legal term Okay, thank you attorney McLean under further discussion Alderman born Thank You, Mayor Ryan Attorney McLean, do you think it might also be appropriate to? Contact the Department of Revenue. I know they have a division that deals with local financing with that be another Resource possibly to get a maybe even get a ruling sooner than the attorney general I Would doubt it Alderman Born I think As far as a legal opinion on if that's what you're looking for as to the meaning of the statute I think it's the attorney general's the appropriate party to get that from You know, but if you want to direct me to send a letter, I'll be happy Well, I don't want to discourage you maybe CC the Department of Revenue You know that if you think it's appropriate or locate a person in the DOR that's Deals with local financing questions. Well, you guys will have to tell me what you want, but Again, they've got no obligation no statutory authority to Or no requirement to provide legal advice to municipalities Well, I'll leave that up Alderman born, please continue. I'll just I'll leave that up to Alderman Hammond seeing it's his document If he thinks the DOR is appropriate seat to be CC'd on that, but It's up to him. It's his document Alderman Hammond Thank You mr. Mayor attorney McLean would Would there be a way to get this into the county Corporate council's hands or is this something they would have to take up at their county board level? Yeah, I couldn't just ask them to send a letter on On our behalf. I think that's something that the county board would have to Authorize their corporation council to request Even not with standing with what the attorney McLean was was mentioning. Thank you very much for clarifying that I still think this may be a Request to send to the attorney general given the spotlight that's going to be put on maintenance of effort You know not only here, but obviously what happened in Milwaukee over the past year I think this may be something that the attorney general would review so I would still ask that we pass this and Attorney McLean to send a letter or request Thank You Alderman Hammond. We have a motion in a second to send a letter to the Seeking an opinion of the state attorney general. Is there any further discussion? If there is no real call, please Montemay or I Rinflaich. Hi racer. Hi, Samson. Hi, Vanderweel. Hi, Versi. Hi, Wongamon Boran. Hi, Bowers. Hi, Decker. Hi Hammond. Hi, Hannah. Hi, Heidemann. Hi, Scott. Hi, and Kittleson 15 eyes Motion carries 1642 by Alderperson Kittleson authorizing acceptance of 2011, Wisconsin Bureau of Transportation Safety Speed Enforcement Grant President Kittleson. Thank you, mayor I'm wondering if we could open the floor up to our police chief chief Domegalski for the next three Documents as we are going to have to suspend the rules on these and he can explain so that we Don't have any questions and we can go forward with the Passage passage of the document. Okay, then we will take all three of these together if we may 1642 we have 1643 by President Kittleson authorizing acceptance of the 2011 alcohol enforcement grant and 1644 by the same For the tracks citation tracking implementation grant do we have a second on those? I have a motion in a second And we are requesting to suspend the rules. We have a second on that. Okay. Is there anybody opposed to suspending the rules? The rules are suspended. Would you like the chief to speak on this? Is are there any questions? Would you like to counsel if you could explain a little bit further or if you're clear on them? Anyone have questions I Guess I have some questions Alderman Bowers, can you stand please? Yes, I have some questions in regards to this doesn't have to be a long explanation. I just like to know I know it's for speed alcohol and The last one I'm not sure okay We have the floor open to Chief Domikowski who will be able to explain that for us chief like you said the first two are our overtime grants that Are to be targeted to speed enforcement and alcohol enforcement. They're both for $35,000 and they fund overtime for those activities the Apartment or the city has a 25% match for each one and that's met through the department budget Essentially what we're doing is putting officers out on overtime and then dedicating officers that are already on the street to do the same type of Enforcement as the overtime so it allows us to maximize our visibility and enforcement the third one is Attract citation implementation grant Wisconsin Act 2009 2009 Wisconsin Act 28 requires Is a law that was passed requires law enforcement beginning January 1st of 2011 to Collect and report data regarding traffic stops to the state The law Directed OGA to pass a rule and how that would be done in July They passed a rule saying that the information would be collected by law enforcement agencies and reported to the state through the tracks system Tracks is a computer software that's used by the state to collect Traffic citations and traffic crash data so Accident reports essentially it allows the officers to do it in their car on their computers And it creates an efficiency in that they don't have to do multiple Inputting of the data they enter it in in to their computers once and it gets transferred every place electronically that it needs to go So it's going to actually create efficiencies In the city and with the state so it rather than the officers writing the ticket sending one copy of the ticket to the municipal court and Then a clerk in a municipal court inputting into their system the officers do it in their computer in the car and it could Sent electronically to the municipal courts into the state and so it's tracked that way As part of this grant the state had some funds that were made available For the city's Municipalities for implementation the way that that went about is the county had to actually submit the grant So we were partners with the county with the other municipality's municipalities in the state And we were recently notified by the state that because of our work on the their DDAX program which stands for Data-driven approaches to crash and traffic safety It's a grant that we got earlier in the year for twenty five thousand dollars that really tailored into the programs that we were Implementing essentially what we do is is collect data on crime in the city and collect data on Traffic accidents crashes we map them and then we overlay them and look for hot spot areas where the there's the highest concentration of crime and traffic Accidents or crashes going on and then we put our resources there so it allows us to maximize Our personnel and the places that they're really needed in the city So because of our work in in that grant in that program and I've mentioned it at the committee hearing We've been asked because of what we've done and the success We've had with that program to go to Chicago to do a presentation to a five state region on the program to try To roll it out wider the state contacted us and said that rather than you get the money with the county We've put some some other money aside for you and that the amount of that grant is seventy one thousand dollars And it's gonna allow us to purchase forty about forty thousand dollars more of Equipment for the squad so that we can do this program and it's gonna Allow us to put on computers and ten extra cars And then it purchases the computer the printers so they can print the tickets and some of the other things There's also a 25% match on that and that matches meant or met through the salaries of Our employees who will be installing that equipment and through the salaries During the time that the officers are trained on how to do the software so there's really no extra cost Does that answer everybody's questions? Thank you chief very thorough President Kittleson, thank you, then I would move that we put all three resolution resolutions upon their passage, please Motion in a second to put 1642 3 and 4 upon their passage any further discussion Further discussion just thank our chief for the fine work and we're happy that we've gotten all three of these grants Thank you Okay, if there is no further discussion roll call, please Rin Flesch. Hi racelor. Hi Samson. Hi Vanderweel. Hi, Versi. Hi Wongamun. Hi foreign. Hi Bowers Hi Decker hi Hammond. Hi Hannah. Hi. Hi to men. Hi cut. Hi Kittleson. Hi and Montemay or hi 15 eyes motion carries 1645 by Alderperson Montemay or extending the deadline for the special committee on the regulation of dangerous dogs To complete its charge and submit a report to the Common Council Alderperson Montemay or thank you. Mr. Mayor I Move that the resolution be put upon its passage second motion in a second under discussion We've been moving along very well the The dog people who have been there to help us have lots of good ideas. It is moving Very well and very nicely. I think we're going to have an effective Ordinance coming up quite soon. So we're but we need a little more time Okay, I'll thank you Alderperson Montemay or did this have a deadline on at this committee? I think 30 days 30 days At the end of the council year, okay, so that puts us out to leave number December was December. Oh, okay, so we're asking for December. Oh, we're asking for December Getting a little longer leash Thinking about that one for a while Okay, we have a motion in a second to give the committee on dangerous dogs a longer leash any further discussion There is none roll call, please. I might have to skip you just for that I Samson I van der wheel I versey. Yes Longamon Boran I Bowers I Decker I Hammond I Hanna I Heidemann I Scott I kiddleson I Montemay or I and Rindfleisch I 15 eyes motion carries 1646 we're also taking going back 1622 with this 1622 reading by the city clerk. This is a report of officer submitting a communication from Alderman Balk Stating that he believes that the Alder person should vote to Approve the resolution to hold the budget vote no earlier than November 29th And then we have with this 1646 by Alder persons borne Balk Hammond and versey to conduct the council vote on the 2011 budget no earlier than November 29th 2010 Do we have a motion Alderman borne? Thank You mayor. I move that the Report of officer be accepted and placed on file And I move that the resolution be put upon its passage second We have a motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion Vice president Rindfleisch. Thank you, mr. Mayor. I agree that the seriousness of the budget this fear something that's since Since I've been on council since 2003 we really haven't extended the time frame But I think this budget really calls for some deep thoughts Some consensus building and as such I do intend to hold a to be the whole meeting on this Wednesday at 7 o'clock in council chambers For those that can make it one item on the agenda will simply be Discussion on the budget, so we'll have some time to talk as well and that's one for this Wednesday However, I have the one concern I have though is not having anything scheduled for number 29th I think we're gonna go through several votes on this agenda item. I think or on the budget I think we're gonna take a several days to reach a consensus or some kind of agreement that Fits our our constituents needs my concern is having it not no early the 29th is low We don't have time from November 1st or just give me December 1st when we have to be in the state So I hope that we can still keep it, you know within 20 seconds 23rd 24 25 However many days we need to meet to get this accomplished So I'll be wanting to know on this item agenda I think ultimately we're probably gonna have our final vote probably on the 29th But I'd rather have some discussion leading up to that as well and give us that time for him that it's gonna It's gonna require for us to reach that agreement. Thank you. Thank you Alderman Rindfleisch If I may comment on this myself having something to do with the budget I Disagree adamantly and putting this off until the 29th It is due to the state on the 1st If there is no consensus reached on the 29th, we cannot call another Council meeting until the 1st Also, there's another issue if it's not voted on until the 29th There's such a thing known in budgets as a mayoral line item veto If it's not voted on until the 29th, and it's due on the 1st If I were to choose as the mayor to beat to line item any to veto any line items in this budget again We're out past the 1st The budget has been the budget schedule has been Made public for many weeks. I believe that we should meet on the 22nd the chances of the council coming to a consensus on the 22nd at least Not going into past midnight on the 20 Going into the 23rd I think will be a challenge If we do not if we meet on the 22nd and we do not succeed in passing a budget There is also the 24th available, which is a Wednesday We get into the 24th the 25th is Thanksgiving 26th is a city holiday. We could meet on Friday the 26th. I don't know how many people would want to That then that I already brings us to Monday the 29th so in the In order to to put this off until the 29th. I I don't think would be a good Recommendation I don't see us reaching success on the 29th. If it's only one day and It is my prerogative as mayor That I can't exercise a line item veto if the budget is not acceptable to me and Obviously putting it off till the 29th does not give me that option So I would advise the council to keep it on the 22nd Alderman born Thank You mayor Ryan Since the budget is still in the process I believe Alderman Hammond is coming was going to come up with some ideas to present Wednesday night That gets presented Wednesday night. I don't think it gives Really gives the public enough time to digest it by Monday the 22nd I remember the original document that we got as a member of the finance committee said that the budget could be approved on The 22nd or the 29th, so we're opting for the second option, which is the 29th And I just think it gives the community a better time to adjust Or find out what's actually in the budget Again the committee of the whole and I don't know if the committee of the whole it's going to be in closed session or not but possibly if it is in a closed session because we are discussing Possibly salary and wages or possible employee cuts Benefits in closed session that gives the public even less chance to find out What we're proposing by the 22nd, so that's why I'm going to vote to extend the debate till the 29th and That's why I'm going to vote. Thank you Thank you Alderman Boren vice president Rindflesh. I'm sorry Alderman Hammond. You're buzzed in first. That's okay I'm patient I put my name on this for a couple reasons and the primary reason is On the 22nd we're gonna a lot of things are gonna happen fast and furious You know a lot of amendments are gonna be made if we talk tax levy increase if we what what have you and I want To make sure we have enough time and I would certainly support the 24th I Want to make sure we have enough time for our friends in the media also for our constituents to take a look at What we're doing and give us our feedback. I understand they had tonight, but they really don't have the phone complete Budget as what we would as what the council amendments and things like that? So I think our constituents the media Should have a chance to vet what we're about to do especially again if we're talking tax levy increase those types of things and so Although I can certainly Adjust on the 29th. I think when we meet on the 22nd have our conversation make our amendments And then we should reconvene at a separate time to make the final vote. Thank you Thank You're Alderman Hammond, and I do not disagree that Maybe there maybe we will go into another session after the 22nd, but I'm just looking at the 29th as being too late to begin That process Alderman Rindflesch, Vice President Rindflesch. Thank you. Mr. Mayor just to clarify and appoint My intent is to hold the committee the whole in open session We don't have any documents. We don't have any agreements or proposals that I believe need to negotiate in private session It is simply a working session for the council to throw ideas out Discuss them debate them And and hopefully begin to reach some consensus and I don't think that meeting would be even be able to be held in closed session Unless I actually had some kind of document that we were negotiating is that correct Steve? I Believe that would be correct Generally, if you're talking about policy issues, those are open session items. They're not closed session so in terms of levy increases layoffs You know a bunch of transfers that kind of thing that would all be done in open session so the public would have the opportunity on the 22nd to To attend to watch the deliberations and for those friends on TV eights if they're able to be here on that evening to televise it, that'd be great as well We have that discussion over there. I just reiterate the schedule as the mayor pointed out We also have to have public notice on any meetings that we have So I mentioned we can meet on 23rd technically we can't unless we actually schedule a meeting If we do not reach your agreement on the 20 seconds and we go into minute 23rd We still have to post it 24 hours, which means the one meeting that we can have is 25th is the only meeting we could have 22nd so you could meet on the 24th we mean a 24th and then the next day is Thanksgiving and after that the weekend It's the 29th. So really by Even by having a 22nd We're really only adding one possible day before the 29th vote if we hold on the 29th. We go over midnight Work that the next day is the first we're into the 30th the next day the budget to do in the state So again, I urge you not to support this right now not because I don't think it's a great idea I think it's a great idea to have the public have as much information as possible But we need to give ourselves the time to do what's right for the constituents and negotiate and debate So we're only going to basically have three days to do so and eliminating two days of that to make a decision Seems ridiculous to me. Thank you Bigger Alderman Rindflash Alderman Hammond once again I don't know Smack me if I'm doing this wrong, but I would make a motion that we amend this Resolution to instead of reading no earlier than the 29th no earlier than the 24 And I would not disagree with that. We have a second on that motion second We have a motion and a second to amend the document to read Now therefore be it resolved that the Common Council shall hold its vote on the 2011 budget no earlier than November 24th 2011 2010 oh This has a typo on it here, obviously 2010 Okay under discussion on the amendment For Steve By taking the vote no earlier than the 24th that would not preclude us from Discussing it either in the community hall or in the council on 22nd is that correct? As long as we can still discuss it on 22nd it makes sense That appears to be what the resolution says is Council shall hold its vote No earlier than whatever date you decide But that doesn't preclude I guess the council for meeting to discuss the budget if someone for example were to Make a motion to amend the budget and would that still be allowed and thus allowing the full budget to be voted on 224th or would that also be precluded well? I would defer to the authors of the resolution as to what the intent is very good. Thank you Alderman Hammond Thank You mr. Mayor. I Think the idea behind this one is that the final budget would be voted on on In this case the 24th Again to give our friends in the media in our constituency opportunity to vet this after a Would it probably be an extremely long evening next next Monday, so again? My intentions as an author would be that the final vote of this budget would be on that date with the 22nd being of the amendments and Then hold it in the final vote on the 24th in this case. Yes, that would probably make sense Alderman Boren did you I? Just wanted a clarification and I think Alderman Hammond clarified that that the final vote would be on the 24th Then very good vice president Renflesh. Thank you. I'll support that motion then to hold on 24th As long as we can still have the discussion on the 22nd as necessary And I think that for making the motion, you know for making the motion as well I think we do need to make sure that we schedule that meeting then Is it spot we have any special council meeting then? Yeah, we would schedule that as a special council meeting on the 24th Okay, so we can commit that it's gonna be done and we might as well still keep that meeting Scheduled for do we have a meeting on we don't have a meeting right now on the 29th, correct? No, we may want to go ahead as well. It's the 29th also just in case Always cancel that correct if it's posted and we would move all the budget documents There's probably 18 16 of them you'd want them move to the 24th Then that's typically all the reports from all the committees, etc. Etc. And the final budget and that was the actual second question I had is because we referred everything to the meeting on the 22nd Everything was referred to the 22nd. We need to meet on the 22nd and 24th And then we would But are the agenda would have to be drafted the next morning And sent out so there's a 24 hour notice and then also the motion does include the typo corrections. I'm assuming Just that one just that one year on the end there Thank you for the friendly amendment Okay, so we have a motion to amend the document to read That the budget is not voted on any earlier than November 24th 2010 Turning McLean just So that the document is clear perhaps you could amend it to say she'll hold its final vote on the budget Hold its final vote on the budget. There we go On Manhattan second the amended right, okay So the amended is that the Common Council shall hold its final vote on the 2011 budget no earlier than November 24th 2010 Everybody clear on that Is there any further discussion we'll still meet on November 22nd? Yes, we will that's where most of the work will hopefully be done Okay Roll call, please No, we don't need a roll call on the amendment just on the final on the amendment all in favor say aye post We have one opposition alderman Heidemann on the amendment on the Final final amended document Roll call, please Samson aye Vanderweel I mercy no Longham and I Warren no Bowers no Decker hi Hammond hi Hanna hi Heidemann. Nope Cough aye Kittleson aye Montemay or aye Rin Flesch aye and Razler aye 11 eyes four noes Motion carries as amended moving on 1647 and 1648 lies over 1649 through 1655 to be referred however, we are pulling 1650 Little premature on that for the these industrial development revenue bonds Excuse me alderman Hammond the bank called Friday and I emailed the finance department or the finance committee saying that they no longer want to do this Okay, fair enough. Thank you Alderman Raceler Thank you. Mr. Mayor. I make a motion to file 1655 second We have a motion and a second to file 1655 1655 by Alderperson's versi borne Heidemann bout Bowers and Samson authorizing the city of Sheboygan fire department to only conduct Quote emergency long-distance transfers unquote as a last resort To be referred to finance ppns and the committee of the whole under discussion On filing the document Alderman raceler. Thank you, I guess in reading over this I did some research today, and I did not find any other municipality that has a similar type of an ordinance or resolution Which also conflicts kind of with our theory that we were looking at trying to have the fire department more as the Manitowoc or lacrosse Type of format and I'm looking at those none of those have any restrictions on any transports or any long distance I guess I'm kind of confused with the definition of an emergency and who's going to be the person that's defining the emergency I Spent several hours over the weekend at the emergency room And I think that everyone was there was an emergency in their own mind so I guess if we're going to leave it up to the board to Judge the fire chief for what was an emergency transport and what wasn't would not be fair to him or his designee I guess I have some questions regarding the continuum of care that's interrupted You have the option or the possibility of The fire department ambulance picking someone up that needs to be transported Either a cardiac or a children that needs to be transported out of the city That they buy this ordinance would not be allowed to do unless it was deemed an emergency Or if it was the choice of the patient or the family that they wanted to go to the VA hospital or children's hospital in Milwaukee Most the ambulance is a lot of the option if it's not an emergency where the patient would like to go when their hands would be tied You're looking at doubling the bills. You're looking at getting a bill from a private Corporation and also the fire department, which we all know our medic medical bills are confusing enough when they come and I think that giving the fire department supporting them with the ability of What was voted on by the Tax payers recently. I think it's a good decision to Move on and support our fire department services and hopefully avoid any other items like this. I also look at the last paragraph which holds the fire chief or his Designee responsible and I I really never seen any of those I'll kind of defer to attorney McLean to see if he's ever seen anything like that in an ordinance before and I think that it's somewhat of a personal attack on Either the fire department or the chief. Thank you. Thank you alderman raceler Alderman born Thank you mayor the reason why I co-signed on to this resolution is Number one the financial situation that the city is in I remember back to the days before chief Herman was the chief and that letter that he wrote to the union saying that one of The goals of his fire department was to put Orange Cross out of business so that they could expand Out into the county and the surrounding area and therefore be able to hire a lot more personnel We're having a hard time even justifying keeping on the personnel that he has right now with the budget situation We're in and if we're going to be allowing him to expand out into the county eventually It's unsustainable We cannot afford to hire more people on the fire department to allow them to go out into the county and Takeover areas that are now taken care of by a private ambulance service It's not sustainable. I Am all for the ambulance service Now that the referendum is passed to being in business in the city of Sheboygan There are protocols in place at the hospital to determine when there is an emergency and when there isn't an emergency and And the the fire department will still be able to make inter-facility transfers in the city but I don't want the The ambulance is running all over southeastern, Wisconsin and taking ambulances out of this city for local calls When they when we have are supposed to have three dedicated ambulances We got two ambulances out of the city, then we've got only two ambulances left dedicated to the city So as far as public safety is concerned I think public safety is well served if our ambulance service conducts their business in the city and if they have to make a Transfer out of the city that is going to be determined by the protocols in place by the medical staffs at the hospital Thank you Thank you alderman born alderman versey Thank you, your honor One of the reasons why this came to is to stop a snowball before it starts As alderman born pointed out we want obviously the citizens voted on the ambulance service We want to keep them in our city. We want them running our city We have them dedicated three ambulances to the city as soon as they start taking Ambulances out of the city are they're doing one or two things They're leaving the city without three or two or one ambulances or they're calling in Extra overtime so it's far further expense that we're going to need also long term We always talk about having a vision on this council You need to have a vision looking at this because the long-term vision of this means more personnel more Ambulances more gas more fuel costs more maintenance costs So you're trying to stop a snowball before it starts. Thank you Thank you alderman versey alderman Hammond. Thank you Please the group I would like to maybe open the floor to the chief If anybody would have an objection to that I have a few questions. I'd like to ask him chief Chiefs of department head. We don't need a motion to open the floor Alderman Hammond, thank you. Sorry chief. Hey doing right Actually, I have a just a couple quick questions With the transports of the ambulance outside of the city Do you foresee an increase of personnel or overtime in order to do that? I? Don't see any increase in personnel In the foreseeable Short or long-term future Only increase in overtime Would be if everything's tied up and we need to call back and that's very minor So the article that you wrote gets thrown all along I just want to give you an opportunity to explain in your article What you were talking about in that article because it gets thrown out a lot I want to give you an opportunity to have that conversation or to explain that real briefly if you could Kind of noticed you're shaking your head back there So I wanted to give you an opportunity to explain yourself in your motives or what you were trying to get at in that article And I think I I've addressed the subject a couple weeks ago in this chamber That article was written in 2006 or seven probably should have been written in 2002 As you look long-term and how we we're looking at a viable fire department I don't believe I've ever said that I was trying to put orange cross out of business or any private ambulance company Said many a times depend on them. They depend on us It's a better system with both of us around I have a lot of questions on this resolution is very unclear to me Just out of curiosity we have four ambulances right correct One's mothballed three are operating Three are front line. I guess I wouldn't call that Say mothballed mothballed. These are when we have eight paramedics on duty They're available to staff that fourth one immediately. All right, I guess my point in this in this line of questions You know ladies and gentlemen, we hire department heads for a reason and that's to run their respective departments And to micromanage them by telling them, you know that they Can't do this or they can't do that Just seems kind of crazy to me. I think we should be giving the chief. We asked him to put together a plan Then the ambulance referendum came about which made it more difficult Understandably, I think we need to give the chief and the mayor the opportunity to come to us with a plan and then Vet it from there instead of tying their hands and then saying how come you're not doing this? Why aren't you doing this? How come this seems crazy? So I'm going to support to file it I just think we need to not micromanage the department heads Thank You alderman Hammond next we have alderman raceler. Thank you chief Does anybody have any other questions for the chief? I might okay? Thank you, mr. I guess I look at this resolution, and I don't see anything in there about and I'm sure you reviewed it Somewhat about working outside of the city. I think it has to do with emergency long-distance transfers It doesn't say anything about going out and working and trying to take any business away from Orange Cross I guess the question that I kind of have is in the event that Something does happen in the city and the ambulances are out of service or busy or or there's a major call Orange Cross We're back in the fire department up, correct That's a system that's in place now. Yes, and it kind of works vice versa if they needed you They would call them and and this kind of also leaves you kind of in a bind if you happen to be called by Orange Cross to a county call would we say and you need to transport to someplace other than Sheboygan Let's say you're you know going to Manitowoc. You're going to St. Mary's, Ozaki You're going to children's you're kind of limited here by telling them that you can't and they're not available to do it So then it kind of kicks back in again, and I guess for me it looks like it punishes the patient You know the double billing the the fact that it's not clear the the rapport that they they gain with the people from the Ambulance and whether I think you can elaborate some of the cardiac people and the children need to go directly to Milwaukee, they don't go to the hospital in Sheboygan first. There are a number of times when the the medical facility here in town will direct us directly To a facility outside the city So that I question on this resolution. How do we do that? Time right we go into the fact of what the emergency is if you're not going to run red lights and siren down to Milwaukee Is it an emergency? I think there's some other implications as far as mutual aid and Mavis We're on other people's cards that brings in a whole question again of Responding outside the city currently whenever we leave the city. I contact the mayor. That's part of my job anytime we leave I have to contact him Thank you chief and thank you alderman-raceler the thing I find most disturbing about this Resolution is the final line that it says that if the city of Sheboygan fire department ambulances Leave the city limits for any non-emergent transfer or emergent transfer without authorization The department head will be reprimanded impossible charges will be filed with fire and police commission To me that is an adversarial position to say the least I Don't think we have any other department heads that operate under a premise like that I think it's confrontational and truthfully I Was hoping that with the referendum that took place in the city regarding the ambulance That the citizens voted to keep the city Fire Department based ambulance that this issue would be over so I Would recommend filing this myself Alderman versey here. This is still allowing them to do current services and keep doing their jobs the way they are and Basically, just like the dog ordinance If you don't have any laws in place anything in writing to stop things from happening to begin with without having something You're giving them an open checkbook and the citizens voted to have that by a slim margin But they didn't vote to have an open checkbook sent out to have future earnings have future Hiring's you're gonna need more personnel It's plain and simple when you're running an ambulance business that you're doing that That's the way you're gonna have to do it to continually Contain and have your three ambulances to the city because that's what the citizens wanted They didn't want their tax dollars running down the highway They wanted their tax dollars paying for it to stay here to support them when they needed it. Thank you Thank you, Alderman versey Alderman board Thank You Mariah, and I don't I don't like to continue harping on the business end of this But I think we have to take a look at the fact that If you look at this other than a marginal cost basis with having two paramedics chased on the Milwaukee And be out of service in the city here for a number of hours the wages and benefits of those of that personnel gasoline wear and tear on the ambulance We're not we're going to lose money on every one of those calls unless you stick with this marginal cost basis that we've been arguing for years But let's get real We're going to lose money on every one of these calls except Except if it will possibly be a private pay But if we're being reimbursed by Medicare or Medicaid I would I would challenge the chief to show me how other than marginal costs that we're going to make any money on any of these Calls at best. I think it's going to be break-even. Thank you, Alderman born I believe the chief's going to take you up on that. If I could address that Three years ago when we got into this business and Almost every day since then we do comparisons with other cities As you're all well aware, we've looked at Manitowoc. We've looked at a lot of other cities The difference between the financial success that those cities are having in ours is the inter-facility transports It's pretty plain and simple. It's a higher collection rate It's a higher charge because of the mileage And it just makes sense to utilize your people more efficiently more effectively. They're there anyway You might as well collect the dollars that you can Chief you may want to stay up there. I'll just a quick question for you chief With doing all those illnesses of transfers, you have four rigs three transfers go out The city of Sheboygan is left with one ambulance correct What are you doing that in that scenario? I would be Calling Manitowoc to come back us up same as they do up in their area Orange Cross is around to back us up and as we described when we Put the business plan forth in 2007 That as we go down the line and our employees retire and we replace them with trained paramedics that we did not pay the training for We will be able to do that the backstab Thank you chief Alderperson montemire. Thank you. Are we observing the speaking twice rule? I haven't enforced that basically since I have been mayor so Yeah, I can't pick and choose Unless it gets to be midnight then I might start Thank you all the person about to be Alderman Hammond, thank you. I'll try not to violate the rule. Sorry, Maryland But you know again, I I go back to the premise of micromanaging department heads First off you can't expand the fire department. The hireings have to be approved by the council You know as the chief's own admission and anybody that's spent more than a day in any type of Public protection you always have a backup. We call it in the military a buddy system. They call it mutual aid Thirdly, it's not an open checkbook. I mean again the budgets are approved by the council They want to spend more money. It's approved by the council. It's not an open checkbook and then fourthly, you know I can't speak for the chief, but I can speak as an officer in the military I would never give up three quarters of my resources to a different battlefield When I know there could be a battle on my own turf So I would be hard pressed to believe that the chief would send three boxes down to Milwaukee With one box to protect the city. So I mean again We shouldn't be telling the chief of fire or the chief of police or any department had How to run their departments? They should be submitting plans to us when we can vet them out then we shouldn't be preemptively Trying to take that power out of their hands. Thank you Thank you Alderman Hammond Um, you know the way the way I see it. It's not any different from operating a candy store now that we're in the ambulance business We're in the ambulance business to stay that was decided by the voters If I have a candy store and my goal is to sell 300 dollars worth of candy Um, if I reach 300 dollars worth of candy by 11 a.m. I'm not going to shut the doors and say, okay I'm done with my day of work. I'm going to keep working Ambulance is no different We are by the vote Of the citizens through the referendum. We are in the ambulance business I cannot see tying the chief's hands And Trying to second guess How he is going to run our ambulance business It's not our job As alderman hammond said to micro manage how he runs his department I was hoping that with the referendum That it would put this issue to rest um, this is Not heading in the right direction in my opinion, but of course the vote is yours Any further discussion? We have a motion and a second to file to file A yes vote would be to file a no vote will refer it to finance Ppns in the committee of the whole We'll call please Samson no Vander wheel. Yes Versi no longman. No boran no Bowers no decker. Hi Hammond hi hanna. Hi Heidemann no kath. Hi kittleson. Hi montemayor. Hi rinflash. Hi raceler. Hi Nine eyes six snows Motion carries document is filed report of committee seven 1656 by the committee of the whole recommending filing document agreeing to match savings from union concessions an 11 increase To be used to retain city personnel for 2011 vice president rinflash Oh, thank you, honor. I move that the report committee be accepted and filed second We have a motion to uh, accept and adopt and let the document be filed I got that one wrong First time that parliamentarian got something wrong in this council. Um, we have a motion to second under discussion If there is no roll call, please Vander wheel. Hi versi. Hi longman. Hi boran. Hi bowers. Hi decker. Hi hammond. Hi hanna. Hi heidemann. Hi kath. Hi kittleson. Hi montemayor Hi rinflash. Hi raceler. Hi and samson. Hi 15 eyes motion carries reports of committees eight 1657 by finance recommending authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2010 budget Establishing estimated revenue and appropriations for the comprehensive planning grant Alderman hammond Thank you, mr. Mayor. I moved to that we Move to accept and adopt the reported committee and put the resolution upon its passage Second. We have a motion in a second to accept and adopt and put the resolution upon its passage under discussion If there is no roll call, please versi. Hi wankerman. Hi boran. Hi bowers. Hi decker. Hi hammond. Hi hanna Heidemann. Hi kath. Hi kittleson. Hi montemayor. Hi rinflash. Hi raceler. Hi samson. Hi and Vander wheel. Hi 15 eyes motion carries 1658 by finance recommending consideration of an initial resolution regarding industrial development revenue bond financing to benefit torgonal incorporated Information with respect to the job impact of the project will be available at the time of consideration of the initial resolution Alderman hammond. Thank you I moved the reported committee be accepted and adopted and the resolution be put upon its passage second Motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion Alderman hammond Thank you just uh Kind of in the interest of clarification. This is a company out of shaboygan falls that's looking to move into the city of shaboygan Bringing the jobs with it and also possibly looking at At last count upwards of five additional positions. So they're looking to grow and expand And they want to do it right here in good old shaboygan. So I'm just a discussion. Thank you alderman hammond Any further discussion There is no roll call. Please wongamon. Hi oran. Hi bowers. Hi decker. Hi. Hammond. Hi hannah. Hi itemin. Hi kath. Hi kettleson. Hi montemayor. Hi rinflash. Hi raceler. Hi samson. Hi vander wheel. Hi And versi. Hi 15 eyes motion carries 16 59 by finance recommending consideration of final resolution regarding midwest disaster area revenue bond financing To benefit just kids dental sc project alderman hammond Thank you Move to accept and adapt to a report of committee and the resolution be put upon its passage second Motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion Alderman hammond if you'd like to just a brief explanation again local dental firm looking to expand Over towards the right next to associated bank. They want to build a very nice state-of-the-art facility and employ two more people So they can accommodate their growing practice Thank you alderman hammond Any further discussion If there is no roll call, please oran. Hi bowers. Hi Decker. Hi hammond. Hi hannah. Hi itemin. Hi kath. Hi kettleson. Hi montemayor Hi rinflash. Hi raceler. Hi samson. Hi vander wheel. Hi versi. Epstein And wangeman. Hi 14 eyes one abstention Motion carries ordinances introduced 10 16 60 lies over to december 6th 16 61 through 16 64 to be referred Other matters authorized by law attorney mcclean 16 65 is an arrow by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending june 30 2011 and june 30 2012 That would go to law and licensing And i believe that's all We have a motion to adjourn in a second all in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed motion carries. Thank you everybody Is she this stuff when you're rich? She's this stuff Well