 When talking about books that we love, it's hard to contain ourselves and not reveal the entire plot line. But for some books, that's exactly what you must do. You wanna give all the details, all the information, and you know there's still a lot to be discovered by the reader. That's the case of the book we're going to discuss today, The Spy and the Trader by Ben Neckentier. This is a true espionage story that happened during the Cold War. And my guest for today's show is Diane Fior. Diane is the person that you need to call if you need to know who is who in West Maui and what's happening in West Maui. If you want to promote an educational event, a social cause, a scholarship, you need to contact Diane. Just like me, Diane participates to several book clubs, but it is the Great Decisions Discussion Group that allowed us to have some wonderful conversations about world affairs. Diane, thank you so much for joining me today. And I appreciate the invitation. I'm gonna start with an easy question. Did you enjoy this read? Absolutely. I found it to be on so many levels. Character study. Why does someone put themselves through that? So I found that to be very interesting and the story itself and also the procedures that they go through. And so I found it a very, very interesting book on several levels. Well, I agree with you. And I've been thinking about the story in this book, or actually the multiple stories because we start discussing the title and it may appear very simple. Gordie is a spy and he is the one that because of him, an international confideration was avoided and Aldrich Ames is the CIA agent that is the trader that revealed all these secrets and uncovered Gordie. But it is a matter of vantage point because if we are the Soviets, when we look at it from the Soviets perspective, then Gordie F.C. is the trader and Aldrich is the spy. And furthermore, both Gordie F.C. and Aldrich Ames are actually agents, they were their spies. They were trained to work in intelligence services. And they're also traders because they betrayed their government. So is this only Gordie F.C. story or is it more than that? I thought it was more than that because they were both doing it for different reasons. And this is when I think of the characters and the character study. Gordie F.C. came from a family of KGB, his father was in KGB, his brother was in KGB, his brother was an illegal, which means he goes underground. It's like those that go undercover in a police department. And he was, his brother was totally devoted as was the father. They don't question, they just do. But like in every family, there is one that starts to question. Many times it's a second child, but it doesn't matter in this case. But Gordie F.C. had an inquiring mind. And I think he was a good observer and he realized that things should be different. He was concerned about his people, the people of Russia. And he felt that there was too much of a difference. You had the people pushing them off in the street and yet you had those in their doggies. And it wasn't for communism, it was supposed to be more equal. And so he had a very, he had an appreciation for the culture and for the arts. And he felt that there should be more of that in Russia. So he, it was really the quality of life is what I'm saying for the people of Russia. And I think that is part of why he did what he did. On the other hand, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I mean, so it was ideology in my view, basically, in the case of all of Russia. It spoke my mind that it was ideology for him. And a comparison, all regimes, for him, it was all about money. We just wanted more money. And for our viewers, I'm going to disclose one fact and that is that over time, the Russians paid all regimes over $4 million. And it went for years before he was discovered and nobody noticed the sudden increase in his wealth or somebody that was making $50,000 a year on paper. So, yes, I agree with you. It's ideology versus plain money, like the typical reshade. Exactly. But I also think once you get past that to do this, you have to have some ego because you're playing a game and it's beating what are the chances that you will get caught. And so it's how you play the game as well. In the case of Alder James, I was amazed at how long it took them to figure that out. He was never well thought of. Is it bureaucracy, you think, that took so long for him to be discovered or, I don't know, maybe the plan was to let information unravel or maybe catch others and have enough food? Like every bureaucracy and every corporation, you have those who get away with these things. Everybody knows that he's a heavy drinker. They know that he's not the most ambitious person in the world. It was indicated that a lot of the KGB were that way. They weren't totally ambitious and the whole tempo allowed both of them to get away with it. In the case of Alder James, it was a very long time and it was because they really weren't paying attention as you say until it reached the point where he had so much money and he was spending it so freely that they had to question it, which really surprised me. I am the case of Odieski. I was just surprised that it took him so long. Well, and he actually used compensation in the beginning. That's right. And it was later on that started to accept some money and he came from a completely different place, I think. But if you look at the definition of a spy in the dictionary, that is a person that basically collects information and reports information about the activities and actions of either an enemy or a competitor. And during the Cold War, it was very clear who are the enemies. It was very clear who's spying on who and why, what is the reason. But in today's world, the spying activities feel going on strong. Two weeks ago, an article in Financial Times that Russian espionage is that of all time high in Switzerland. In addition to that, there was a Spanish citizen that turned out, journalist, that turned out to be an agent for the Russians during the beginning of the Cold War. And there's a Russian spy that flight for an internship at the Hague was spying on cases of international criminal court. So obviously this activity is going and so who are today's enemies or who are the competitors and what are they spying for? I was trying to figure out why Gordiewski was doing this and I think a lot of it had to do with culture and the quality of his people. And he was impressed by what happened with the Prague Spring. And then because he had a facility for languages, he was sent to Berlin, East Berlin as his first assignment because he spoke German fluently. And in the spy business, speaking languages very fluently is very important. And so he arrived the day before the wall went up and the wall originally, there was a small wall across a street, a major thoroughfare, not that wide by standards now, but it was there, there was a wall. I think there was a place for people, for a car to get through, but maybe just one. They had, I could be wrong, but they had the wire and you had guards in a tower there. And you see it in newsreels from the old days, but suddenly it was and here was I'm sorry, do I recall correctly that you were in Berlin in the late 50s, early 60s? So you've seen with your own eyes some of these. Right. I was very fortunate. I was a teenager and teenagers are very impressionable. So I just soaked it all in and I had opportunities to experience things that people don't usually experience as a teenager. I will just mention one thing as an example of a spy gathering information. This is a picture of my father. It's a caricature. He actually looked much better than that, but it was a caricature. Every officer and his wife at the officer's club was, which was Harnick House, had one of these. Everybody got one. And it was a German artist, very talented one. In fact, I want to say this is about 63, 64 years old, probably 63. Look at the colors and how, and I have just thrown it in a drawer all these years. But look at how fresh the colors are still. So whatever they used it were. Bottom line is. Were you at that time, were there discussions about spies or your family have these conversations that somebody may be spying on us or things like that? It was spy. This was the land of spies. Berlin probably still is. Everything that was happening was happening in Berlin. And there were Russian spies. They were American spies. Counterintelligence was really starting to come into its own. So we were there as a defense force because we were surrounded by East Germany to protect the Germans because we know the story of Hitler who killed 20 million Russians. So they weren't too happy with the Germans. So we were there as a protection force. So the answer is yes. And I interacted with those who were as a babysitter. So we know what they were spying about. Everybody wanted to know who's got the nuclear weapons and when they engage them. But in today's world, what do you think the spying activity is about? Is it arms-based, nuclear-based? Is it information about maybe more commercial nature, technology and so on? I think it's part of all of that. Technology, they are giving us a run for our money in technology with the hacking and so forth and media influence. It's a war in the technological field. I'm sure we are doing the same in outer space. We are being challenged in outer space. But I think it's basically the same it's just become far more sophisticated. I think that's what the difference is. And one of the things that I loved about this book and actually all of Van Meck and Pirate's book, you really learn a lot about spy craft, the planning, the number of people that are involved, the things they do. For me, it's really really good information to know. But I wonder how did technology change all that? Because spying in the sixties is totally different from today. Back in the sixties, you had to create a persona for somebody and they all had fake names, fake passwords and stories. In today's world, you go on Facebook and you create a persona in two minutes with friends and relationships and jobs and you name it. And you just have to then have the actual person to match the Facebook profile. So in a way, I think it's easier but at the same time, we're more exposed to scrutiny because we have so much access to information. It's so easy to verify things on one hand or on the other hand, it's easy to fight them. There's no doubt about it. I think it's more challenging because it's competing with people, those that are technical and always coming up with new things. And for those of us who are technically challenged, it's really amazing. But it's so far easier to influence. And because we have so many people on media, they don't understand that they're being influenced. And this is the frightening part because in today's world, you can have a small group that is really influencing technology media all around the world. Where before it was done and affecting the East versus the West, but now it's all over the world. So that you have all these various, well, you have China, you have Russia, you have Iran, you have Saudi Arabia and so forth and not to mention the United States. So I think it's far more complex and much more challenging but you still need the people on the ground. So nothing takes the place of a human person on the ground. Because there are things you can have online but hearing it from another person face to face can be different. So I think you need all those things. So I think it's far more of a, my opinion is it's far more challenging now. And it wasn't easy then. Well, I want to share with our viewers that last week I went to New York and I visited the spy museum in New York which is an experiential museum. Besides all the exhibits that you can enjoy and you learn a lot about spy craft and you'll see on the screen right now some of the images from the museum. They also do assessments. So you do these tests and then at the end of your experience you're giving an assessment that you might be good for surveillance or you may be good for encryption or things like that. It was a very good museum to go see. So I strongly recommend it to everybody. And that's where I bought this wonderful shirt that says question everything. And you can even buy a shirt that says secret agent. I've avoided that. And they also have a huge library of books about spies and spy craft fiction, so definitely a place to see. So I know that you also want to share with us a personal story about violence. Okay, as I told you and we talked about the pieces. You have those like the men that they rose in the ranks and they were in a situation of getting all this information. But then you have those who are the ones who get pieces of information as the artist did just drawing in the officers club. Well, one day I got a call about two o'clock in the afternoon, I'm 14, 15 years old, summer afternoon around two o'clock from my father who said, Diane, there's a dog across the street that people cannot walk it today. The owners can't walk it. So would you please go over to the apartment across the street and get the dog? It's apartment one. So I go over, now mind you, I've never been around a dog. I go over, I buzz a buzzer, I'm buzzed in. A woman hands me the leash and the dog and says, don't let go of this leash and be back at five o'clock. So I walk out the door with the dog. I don't question. I walk out the door with the dog and I decide to go to the AYA which is the American Youth Association where we all met. I walked in the door with this dog and all the other friends and so forth came towards me because I happened to be walking with a standard size, fluffy, beautiful, white poodle who was not only a show dog, it was a champion. And so I walked around with this dog. It got a lot of attention. I was queen of made that day. At about quarter of five, I knew I had to get back to get this dog back on time. I walked over there and buzzed the buzzer, gave the woman the dog with the leash and I left. About two months later at dinner, my husband, my father said to me, remember the dog you walked about two months ago? Yes. Well, it seems the dog walker was a Russian spy and they arrested her while you were walking the dog. So I did my little bit for freedom. Yeah, I'm amazed they didn't have a microphone on the dog to report information. Probably it was kind of hard in the sixties but totally doable in today's world, a mini microphone on the collar and then who's gonna withhold secrets from a nice dog, right? Exactly, and the two people who owned the dog were intel people, both the husband and wife. So they were a good source. If indeed they were not being as strong as they were they should be, careful as they should be. Well, I know if I've learned something from this book or something that stayed with me is that there may not be anything like a coincidence but nothing is a coincidence because you read all the details about the planning of where D.F.C.'s distraction and his spy work and so on and you realize that coincidences may not be occurring as often as you think may be just planned. But Diane, I thank you so much for joining me today for this wonderful conversation and for your personal input and sharing your personal stories with us. Well, thank you. And I'll tell you my idea, out of the box idea of what really happened for him. We'll talk about it. I'm looking forward to hearing that. And for viewers, if you want to enhance your reading there is another new book out. It is by Robert Bayer and it's called The Fourth Men because we know of three agents that have prayed or they have conveyed secrets to the Russians but apparently there's a fourth one and this book talks about that and it's a nonfiction book. So, I hope that we read that one too and again, read everything that you get. A hui hou. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.